Straw man

[wheelwright]

Since DDay after my A (6 months ago) my H continually sets up a position he erroneously states I hold and fires at it. This most often revolves around mis-representing my behaviour and statements (not retrospectively- now).

 

I have been transparent and NC since DDay.

 

Has anyone else experienced this?

 

How should I react?

 

Why does he do it? ( I get it is to do with mistrust).

[LakesideDream]

Since DDay after my A (6 months ago) my H continually sets up a position he erroneously states I hold and fires at it. This most often revolves around mis-representing my behaviour and statements (not retrospectively- now).

 

I have been transparent and NC since DDay.

 

Has anyone else experienced this?

 

How should I react?

 

Why does he do it? ( I get it is to do with mistrust).

 

 

 

I hope you aren't serious. Six months is not a "long time" for a betrayed spouse to be vigilant, mistrustful, and angry. Reading Loveshack it seems like the a couple of years seems pretty reasonable.

 

Transparent is good. It takes time to build trust. Actually I personally believe that in this case trust is a misnomer. I believe it takes time to build an investment in emotion, and life for a betrayed spouse to keep from going postal each time they have doubts.

 

Personally I didn't have the problem with my ex. As soon as I understood that she was being penetrated by another man I lost all interest in her. I didn't forgive her.. and I won't. I just don't care. Your husband is probably a better man than I... he's at least listening to you.

[carhill]

How's MC going?

[wheelwright]

Not doing MC. Should be, but we are not that type, more so him than me.

 

Should I persude him? What would it give us that we can't work out?

[bentnotbroken]

I hope you aren't serious. Six months is not a "long time" for a betrayed spouse to be vigilant, mistrustful, and angry. Reading Loveshack it seems like the a couple of years seems pretty reasonable.

 

Transparent is good. It takes time to build trust. Actually I personally believe that in this case trust is a misnomer. I believe it takes time to build an investment in emotion, and life for a betrayed spouse to keep from going postal each time they have doubts.

 

Personally I didn't have the problem with my ex. As soon as I understood that she was being penetrated by another man I lost all interest in her. I didn't forgive her.. and I won't. I just don't care. Your husband is probably a better man than I... he's at least listening to you.

 

 

I like this. Never thought of it that way, but it seems accurate. Up to 5 years is what I have read in most of the literature. It doesn't take much to break that special bond, but it takes years to try to recapture it.

[anne1707]

I really do recommend MC. To bare all to your H in a safe environment may well help in him in regaining trust in you again so that he does not feel compelled to "test" you. He also needs to open up hence the need for MC for both of you.

[carhill]

Not doing MC. Should be, but we are not that type, more so him than me.

 

Should I persude him? What would it give us that we can't work out?

MC gave us a level field of discourse with an experienced interpreter. It helped me better understand the effects of my EA on my stbx's psyche and her to understand what I had been attempting (poorly) to communicate to her for years. It helped us clarify our present emotional perspectives, both personally and regarding the M. It really taught me a lot. I don't really know if she gained anything meaningful from it, but hope she did.

 

Like Lakeside said, months are minutes. Recovery from this stuff, especially if you had a full-on EA/PA, can take years. Read Owl's posts thoroughly for guidance on one method of recovery. IIRC, he said it took he and his W a good two years to have meaningful recovery from her EA.

 

Hope it works out for you. It didn't for us, but that's just one datapoint. I always hope for positive outcomes

[bentnotbroken]

Not doing MC. Should be, but we are not that type, more so him than me.

 

Should I persude him? What would it give us that we can't work out?

 

 

If nothing else, it will give the 2 of you insight into being a partner in a healthy relationship.

[whichwayisup]

You can still go on your own, even if he won't, who knows, maybe one day he'll change his mind - BUT in the meantime you going on your own will show him that you are working on yourself, to change, to understand why you cheated and betrayed him to begin with.

 

Just keep being an open book. Allow him access to phone, email, or anything else that he asks. He needs to feel like he can check up on you at anytime and know that you won't hold back or get in his way. The more times he checks up on you, and sees 'nothing' the better he'll feel.. In some sense. It builds his trust back, having faith that you aren't going to go behind his back and cheat again, or contact your exAP.

 

Be loving, be patient, show him not only in words, but in actions that you ARE worthy of this second chance.

 

Also, don't think he's going to get over it within 6 months. Some say it takes up to 2-4 years to work through recovery. That is, as long as both want to make it work and put in the effort.

[PhoenixRise]

WW

 

I think he is wondering who the hell you are (this is how I felt about my H)

 

He though he knew you. Thought he knew for sure that you could never do anything like his. So now he is setting up these straw men based on the new person that he is afraid you are.

 

It will take time (longer than 6 months) for him to trust what he "knows" about you.

 

In the meantime MC is an excellent idea.

A good MC (preferably one who specializes in infidelity) can give you both the tools to see what is behind these straw men arguments. Can give you tools to help you communicate effectively and fight fairly. Give it a try. AND as has been suggested, if he won't go with you, go alone.

[wheelwright]

MC gave us a level field of discourse with an experienced interpreter. It helped me better understand the effects of my EA on my stbx's psyche and her to understand what I had been attempting (poorly) to communicate to her for years. It helped us clarify our present emotional perspectives, both personally and regarding the M. It really taught me a lot. I don't really know if she gained anything meaningful from it, but hope she did.

 

Like Lakeside said, months are minutes. Recovery from this stuff, especially if you had a full-on EA/PA, can take years. Read Owl's posts thoroughly for guidance on one method of recovery. IIRC, he said it took he and his W a good two years to have meaningful recovery from her EA.

 

Hope it works out for you. It didn't for us, but that's just one datapoint. I always hope for positive outcomes

 

I could have quoted any answers so far, but this one said it all.

 

I wonder how good I have to be. If he (my H) behaves not so well, i.e. grumpy and disrespectful in the day to day, do I just have to take it? I appreciate 6 months is not long enough and that MC may help. I have looked at the Marriage Builders website that others have directed me to and gained a lot.

 

I understand his needs as BS take precedence, but how far do mine have to take the back seat?

 

Also I am still far from perfect. I occasionally stay up late drinking by myself (I seem to need this time to process what I have been through, rather than concentrating on him). Anything I do that is for me solo seems to trigger his issues. Do I really need to submit to this for two years? I have compromised and given up all obvious triggers already. Am I naive?

 

So MC or no M maybe.

[whichwayisup]

If your H is being mean to you, disrespecting you daily and not making any effort to do his best to give you some credit, to spend time with you, etc the marriage won't work. It takes two to fix it, he has to want to save the marriage..Yeah you have to do ALOT of legwork and gain his trust again, but he has to decide to not throw it in your face all the time, make you feel bad.

 

I hope he changes his mind and does counselling with you. If not, the marriage is going to be harder to get back on track.

[whichwayisup]

As long as it takes...That is, if you're willing to love him and fight for your marriage.

 

I have compromised and given up all obvious triggers already

You don't know what his triggers are. It could be a TV show, or a certain date, or a song on the radio, could be ANYTHING that can set him off, and trigger him. You have no idea.. He could be fine and then all of a sudden it'll just hit him. THOSE are the times YOU need to reaffirm your love for him, be supportive and understanding.

 

How long did your affair last?

 

Do a site search on the username DazednConfused. He has long left LS, but maybe reading his story will help you understand the mindset of your husband, what he is feeling and going through right now. (BTW, the thread title of dz's story is called wife made stupid mistake)

[carhill]

For recovery to occur, IMO, there are two concurrent synergies which must exist.

 

1. Engagement. You both must still be emotionally engaged in the M

 

2. Effort. You both must make an effort to rebuild the M

 

Obviously, because you had an A, the work is necessarily different, and perhaps your load is greater at certain points, but it still takes two to make the M work. H isn't going to have a healthy M just sitting around pointing a finger and reliving the past.

 

The past was an interesting part of the dynamic of MC. The psychologist worked with us to accept the past and both our roles in it, and move our work into the here and now, and to make a conscious effort to block past triggers to present day issues. This was a key part of my work on acceptance.

 

Lastly, if you do not believe in the process of counseling and/or therapy, do not waste your time or money. It will do you no good. In order for it to be effective, you must be open to the process and be willing to take a critical look at yourself and see some pretty unpleasant and humbling things about who you are. Are you up for that? Do you want a healthy marriage and/or psyche? Up to you. There's no requirement. Lots of people go on with their M's or D and never do the work. We each have our path.

[wheelwright]

How long did your affair last?

 

Do a site search on the username DazednConfused. He has long left LS, but maybe reading his story will help you understand the mindset of your husband, what he is feeling and going through right now. (BTW, the thread title of dz's story is called wife made stupid mistake)

 

The A lasted 9 months, and I was not as decietful as I may have been. I slept in separate bedrooms during etc. I can't seem to be with two men, although I also couldn't leave my M. Confused and emotional to say the least.

 

I read the DazednConfused threads already. Heartrending and ultimately unhappy. I think it mirrors my H pretty well.

 

I want him to have his strength back. His purpose for life. I want any split to be amicable, but realise I have shot that to the big blue.

 

I want him to be happy. Maybe he knows the betrayal was too great, and we are extending a painful break up.

 

I wish I had not dealt with my issues by having an A.

[wheelwright]

WW

 

I think he is wondering who the hell you are (this is how I felt about my H)

 

He though he knew you. Thought he knew for sure that you could never do anything like his. So now he is setting up these straw men based on the new person that he is afraid you are.

 

It will take time (longer than 6 months) for him to trust what he "knows" about you.

 

I have just realised what an on the button post this is.

 

Thanks. It is about the person he is is afraid i am. And the person I am afraid I am. And what he fears he cannot get back from my betrayal.

 

And the time it takes to rebuild this trust.

 

So do I say every time he evokes a straw man that he is doing this? Because you can't have a rational or helpful straw man discussion. Is this something I am in a position to tell him, or does it take a third party?

[whichwayisup]

Be honest with him, always. Tell him your fears, tell him you believe counselling will help. And, ask him if this is what he wants, to stay married to you. Maybe he is leaning towards the other way and doesn't know how to tell you, or he just doesn't know. But, a decision sooner or later has to happen, to fix things or separate/divorce. It isn't good for either of you to continue like this, in a stand still.

[PhoenixRise]

Because you can't have a rational or helpful straw man discussion. Is this something I am in a position to tell him, or does it take a third party?

 

 

This is why I think you need a third party. I agree with the post above that says you should always be honest. But at the same time I don't know how well he will be able to accept any insights you might have into HIS behavior. Maybe to him it will just look like you are ducking responsibility for your OWN behavior (I get it that you aren't doing this, but he, so soon after dday might not see this).

 

Try to get the both of you into MC. A third party can help you navigate this.

 

In the meantime, when he sets up these straw man arguments, can you think of a way for YOU to respond to the real issue (his fears about you, who you are, the future of the M) without being drawn into a pointless straw man argument that is just there as a smokescreen anyway?

 

Is it possible for you to not respond to or criticize (to him) his coping mechanism but at the same time respond in love to the issues he is really coping with?

 

To be clear, I am not in any way suggesting you lovingly accept abuse. At the end of the day, if your marriage is going to recover it IS going to take effort from your H too. I am saying that for now you might have to do a huge percentage of the heavy lifting.

[AmIParanoid]

Since DDay after my A (6 months ago) my H continually sets up a position he erroneously states I hold and fires at it. This most often revolves around mis-representing my behaviour and statements (not retrospectively- now).

 

I have been transparent and NC since DDay.

 

Has anyone else experienced this?

 

How should I react?

 

Why does he do it? ( I get it is to do with mistrust).

 

 

You didn't provide any examples of what you think your H is doing that you think "misrepresents" your behavior and statements.

 

First, you did lie to him every day for the nine months your affair was undiscovered. Probably multiple times a day. In other words, you were essentially constantly lying to him during this time period (even by omission--engaging in your affair and hiding it etc.)

 

I will speculate that when you do or say something that strikes your H as possibly untrue or disingenous he calls you out on it and claims you are still being untruthful and deceptive with him. It is probably best for the time being that he is right and you are wrong, but you just can't see that you are wrong. From his perspective, you are probably constantly dissimulating. Even small errors or omissions on your part are going to strike him as deliberate lies at this point. And indeed people who engage in affairs typically lie not just about the affair but about other things going on in their lives.

 

Now you claim you have been transparent since D day. Have you written out a detailed time line/narrative for your H of the entire history of your affair, including details of all contact you have ever had with the affair partner? Times, dates, locations, descriptions? Every phone call/txt message/email ever exchanged with your affair partner? Etc. Etc.

 

In any event obviously your H does not regard you as "transparent" and reading through this thread it sounds like you have one foot out the door of the marriage already, and have unrealistic expectations of what is involved here.

 

Your Marriage will NEVER EVER be the same as it was. Your H will NEVER EVER trust you 100% the way he used to. Your H will NEVER EVER forget what you did by having your affair.

 

Even after you think you have reconciled 10 years from now he could wake up in the middle of the night with nightmare about what you did and you will have a fight about it.

 

It's your job to suck it up and deal with all the fall out if you want to save your marriage. You caused the problem, you need to own it.

[eeyore1981]

For recovery to occur, IMO, there are two concurrent synergies which must exist.

 

1. Engagement. You both must still be emotionally engaged in the M

 

2. Effort. You both must make an effort to rebuild the M

 

Obviously, because you had an A, the work is necessarily different, and perhaps your load is greater at certain points, but it still takes two to make the M work. H isn't going to have a healthy M just sitting around pointing a finger and reliving the past.

 

The past was an interesting part of the dynamic of MC. The psychologist worked with us to accept the past and both our roles in it, and move our work into the here and now, and to make a conscious effort to block past triggers to present day issues. This was a key part of my work on acceptance.

 

Lastly, if you do not believe in the process of counseling and/or therapy, do not waste your time or money. It will do you no good. In order for it to be effective, you must be open to the process and be willing to take a critical look at yourself and see some pretty unpleasant and humbling things about who you are. Are you up for that? Do you want a healthy marriage and/or psyche? Up to you. There's no requirement. Lots of people go on with their M's or D and never do the work. We each have our path.

 

BBM

 

This is so important. In my situation, I feel I didn't do much of anything wrong. A lot of people take that like I think I'm perfect, etc. The reality is I would love to go to therapy and have them explain to me how I did this, that, and something else. As it stands right now, I feel like I have no control at all. I feel he continued to sabatoge our marriage until I gave up, so what is going to stop him from doing it again?

 

It's been almost 2 and a half years since DDay for me. My H is being so good. I go along with it, and I am good back, but on the inside I am not so good. We've been here before, several times, and it always gets ruined.

[carhill]

I am good back, but on the inside I am not so good.

 

Do you understand the impetus for this disconnect, or does it remain a mystery?

 

We've been here before, several times, and it always gets ruined.

 

Is this it? The feelings of the past being imbued into the present reality? That was a really tough area for myself and I'm sure stbx as well.

 

BTW, generally, although it did not affect the outcome, my perspective was apparently received better when I did not 'point the finger' but rather spoke in terms of how I felt, such as 'I feel taken advantage of'; 'I feel unappreciated'; 'I feel abandoned'. This process of evolving from 'you, you, you' negatives to describing my own feelings was what got my stbx to the point of admitting that 'I can't give you that' meaning she was unwilling or unable to show me the love and appreciation I felt I deserved, so we decided that divorce was our solution. Without the process, we might have still divorced, but would never have had the clarity and resolution.

 

Like I said prior, every situation is different and every path unique. Ours is but one. Best wishes

[eeyore1981]

Do you understand the impetus for this disconnect, or does it remain a mystery?

 

 

 

Is this it? The feelings of the past being imbued into the present reality? That was a really tough area for myself and I'm sure stbx as well.

 

BTW, generally, although it did not affect the outcome, my perspective was apparently received better when I did not 'point the finger' but rather spoke in terms of how I felt, such as 'I feel taken advantage of'; 'I feel unappreciated'; 'I feel abandoned'. This process of evolving from 'you, you, you' negatives to describing my own feelings was what got my stbx to the point of admitting that 'I can't give you that' meaning she was unwilling or unable to show me the love and appreciation I felt I deserved, so we decided that divorce was our solution. Without the process, we might have still divorced, but would never have had the clarity and resolution.

 

Like I said prior, every situation is different and every path unique. Ours is but one. Best wishes

 

I'm going to somewhat TJ and answer these questions, in the interest of emphasizing why therapy, especially MC, can be so important and such a valuable tool.

 

Do you understand the impetus for this disconnect, or does it remain a mystery?

 

Yes, I understand. I did everything I could think of to try to make my husband understand my need for honesty, and my need for him to admit, own it, and DEAL with it. He, however, seems to have decided this is not what I need.

 

Is this it? The feelings of the past being imbued into the present reality? That was a really tough area for myself and I'm sure stbx as well.

 

For me, it is more about the core behaviors still being there. Most of our problems, IMO, have been a massive disregard for me and my feelings.

 

For example, (and this is just trying to get the idea across. While stuff like this happens, this same 'attitude' carries over into conversations, life decisions, etc.) if I wanted a $20 mixer for my birthday, and spent months talking about it, how I like to bake, and how great it would be to have something like that, odds are good I'll open my present and it will be a $200 diamond bracelet. If I'm unhappy, then of course I am just an ungrateful, spoiled witch. IMO, it's manipulation, and it is all about me having what he wants me to have, not what I want.

 

It would be so nice to have an unbiased, professional 3rd party to help communicate these things between us, and even help me, if I am so off base on how I feel, understand where I am going wrong. I've tried on my own, and except for the occasional outburst of temper from being so frustrated, I've stuck with the therapist speech, not pointing the finger, etc. It just makes no difference.

[Spark1111]

WW, as a fBS, I think the strawman discussions are a huge cry for reassurance, validation, and our inner child trying to heal from the devastation.

 

As a WS, you cannot apologize enough, or listen non-judgementally to your BS in pain.

 

Here are four greatest words in the language, when you begin to see the strawman:

 

You could be right.

Tell me why you think that.

 

And then shut up and listen.

 

I know that there are other issues in your marriage you wish to address, but NOW is not the time to do so. It will fall on ears deafened by the pain of betrayal. It will sound like justifications and will only hurt him more. He will shut down and grump.

 

NOW is about the affair. Nothing else.

[wheelwright]

WW, as a fBS, I think the strawman discussions are a huge cry for reassurance, validation, and our inner child trying to heal from the devastation.

 

As a WS, you cannot apologize enough, or listen non-judgementally to your BS in pain.

 

Here are four greatest words in the language, when you begin to see the strawman:

 

You could be right.

Tell me why you think that.

 

And then shut up and listen.

 

I know that there are other issues in your marriage you wish to address, but NOW is not the time to do so. It will fall on ears deafened by the pain of betrayal. It will sound like justifications and will only hurt him more. He will shut down and grump.

 

NOW is about the affair. Nothing else.

 

I was away for a couple of days. And I want to thank people for their responses. I am genuinely grateful that when I reach out on this forum people respond.

 

A lot of people on all sides say that their worlds are turned upside down by infidelity.

 

Thank you spark for the insider comment above. It's the thought that guids me anyway, but I guess I need to hear it again sometimes.

 

And I thank the people who have been caeful to couch their terms so that I do not take 's**t' above and beyond.

 

I guess in a discussion we want things to make sense and move somewhere positive. But the betrayal meansI put that on hold even if it means the conversations go nowhere. As I write that, I get it might be true, but it is hard to get.

 

He needs to get it out. My needs are on hold. Is that it?

 

But that is hard if someone is saying 'you think ...' (lots of bad things about the relationship) and you don't think them and they don't listen to reassurance.

 

I think this was a helpful post for me Spark, because I see the 'straw man' now as the cry for reassurance it is. (Might be).

Edited January 13, 2010 by wheelwright

[FryFish]

Wheel, you sound like you feel guilty and not actually remorseful. That is who you are, you cheated, you ruined your marriage, you care more about your BS shutting the **** up than you do about what you did to him... You need to go your separate ways.