The Not-so-secret

[and.then.some]

All of my male friends have expressed having some problem with women who hate men at one point or another. When I look around here, I see lots of men who hate women, but I haven't noticed a man-hating woman yet! Actually, I've never personally met a woman who hates men.

 

Whether you're male or female, angry or desperate, I'd like to ask you all to consider something...

 

Who wants to be with a mean, angry, and unhappy person? I get it. You've been treated poorly and you've had bad experiences. But when you carry that around with you it shows. These things do show in your temperament, body language, and so forth. How you feel dictates how you carry yourself. Often times, other people can pick up subtleties that you didn't even know you were sending out into the world.

 

A-hole does not equal strong. Most of the times it's pretty obvious that you're overcompensating. Determined not to be hurt again? Okay... but does it even work?

 

Hopefully this is a helpful picture...

 

SADOMASOCHISM.

 

The jerk is just as weak as the doormat. Both are like parasites feeding off of one another. Relationships are based on what you give and what you get being in some sort of "balance". When that balance changes, how you relate to one another changes... so does the relationship. Usually, it begins to fall apart.

 

Male or female... one party needs another person to suffer their abuses. It makes him/her feel strong, in control, and loved. The other party needs approval, and often times a difficult subject in order to feel as though they've earned/won something.

 

But what happens when the masochist starts to feel there wasn't any benefit to all of his/her hard work? All of a sudden this person is angry over the sadist that he/she chose... yet doesn't quite see it that way...

 

What you are has much to do with what you attract So, tell me... why continue to walk into a brick wall? Because it's fun?

[temple]

Ha! Too true. I don't have much sympathy for people who don't help themselves/wallow in self-destruction.

 

Maybe they're hoping their little sob stories will result in someone pity dating them. Good luck with that

[cognac]

The reason not as many women hate men is because men are generally easier to get along with and less judgemental . Plenty of women I know who are a little different in way of thinking of dressing from the rest of women, not only like men, but have only male friends because they can't stand being around most women.

[and.then.some]

The reason not as many women hate men is because men are generally easier to get along with and less judgemental . Plenty of women I know who are a little different in way of thinking of dressing from the rest of women, not only like men, but have only male friends because they can't stand being around most women.

 

Male-female friendships are never the same as female-female friendships! lol

 

Judging by the posts here, to call men less judgmental is a far stretch. Male friends may be nicer and more accomidating for a number of reasons which I won't bring up here at the moment. :-)

 

I think all this hate has much to do with the ego... inflated sense of self-importance based on what is the problem.

[Stockalone]

I think all this hate has much to do with the ego... inflated sense of self-importance based on what is the problem.

 

And what is the problem?

[and.then.some]

Ha! Too true. I don't have much sympathy for people who don't help themselves/wallow in self-destruction.

 

Maybe they're hoping their little sob stories will result in someone pity dating them. Good luck with that

 

I wasn't speaking so much of the sob stories as i was about all the resentment, etc. I can't imagine the angry or freaked out people expecting pity dates. Then again... Could that really be what all of the "nice guys finish last" posts are about? Hmmm...

.

.

.

 

Think more about what you want, and less about what you don't want.

[Stockalone]

I can't imagine the angry or freaked out people expecting pity dates. Then again... Could that really be what all of the "nice guys finish last" posts are about? Hmmm...

 

I think pity (in whatever form) is the last thing they want.

[carhill]

IME, women hate with specificity. They can hate men with specificity and impunity simply because there will always be another unwitting male with a penis for a brain who wants to bang them.

 

Perspective gleaned from a lifetime of 'real' female friends bitching about men, whether they be husbands, boyfriends or exes, most often while still banging them. Thankfully, after being married to one of them, that period of my life is now over. Tranquility has returned.

[and.then.some]

And what is the problem?

 

Based on what?

 

On what are they basing this overly inflated sense of entitlement and self-importance? That's the problem.

 

When you don't know yourself, it becomes more difficult to really see people for who they are before it's too late (so to speak).

 

Everyone has been treated poorly at some point in life. Our reactions to this poor treatment become worse over time once we've allowed ourselves to become emotional invested with all the wrong people.

 

People say they deserve better treatment because they want it, and yet they don't seek this better treatment. How then can they claim to *really* deserve it? We've all been through some phase and it's part of the learning process. How we come out on the other side of it all is what really matters.

 

Example: Flaky women. Not all women are flaky, yet there seems to be a flock of men here who are attracted to them. (The same can be said for women. I'm not trying to generalize here.) Another way to look at it would be people falling head over heels while using a faulty check list.

 

Interest should go beyond being a good conversationalist, having common interests, and various physical/material things. How then do the unreliable even retain the interest of the person who claims to be worth so much more? The thrill of the chase? Hopes of being the "winner"?

 

Or, not really having one's own priorities in check?

[Stockalone]

So your theory is that they don't know who they are and don't know what they want?

 

And you also think they have an overly inflated sense of entitlement and self-importance?

 

I can't say I agree with any of that. Most of the guys know who they are and they also know what they want. They do like who they are.

 

The problem from their POV is that this is not good enough to get them the relationship they are looking for. This train of thought can exist even after introspective deliberations.

 

Do you think they should just change who they are and then they would be happy?

[sumdude]

Posted this in another thread.. but it still applies to this one. Old school but the same story..

 

[and.then.some]

So your theory is that they don't know who they are and don't know what they want?

 

And you also think they have an overly inflated sense of entitlement and self-importance?

 

I'm saying a lot of things, actually. A lot of people have some general idea of who they are and what they want, but it's often very shallow. So many people become emotionally invested simply because the cute guy or girl smiled at them or called them once. Now they're all ready to pee their pants because he/she is attractive, has his/her own condo, or whatever else it is.

 

After two dates they're a nervous wreck because this person hasn't called in a week... and so forth.

 

People need to know what they're dealing with before they start to invest themselves in it. People need to be more discerning, which is a very difficult thing to do when you don't even know where you stand yourself.

 

I've watched this same scenario play out in various types of situations. It doesn't matter if it's a boyfriend, wife, or the guy they met at the mini mall last month. Yes, that's right. I said wife.

 

People are going after and choosing people all wrong for themselves because they're not looking at the right things.

 

 

The problem from their POV is that this is not good enough to get them the relationship they are looking for. This train of thought can exist even after introspective deliberations.

 

Do you think they should just change who they are and then they would be happy?

 

Change who they are in what sense? Happiness is a choice.

[Crazy Magnet]

I've seen more woman hating on this board than the other way around as well. Heck, I even got bashed for *gasp* introducing two guys to my friends and then asking their opinions how compatible they thought each of these guys were for me. Apparently that makes me one of the evil women and that was some type of hoop the poor men had to jump through. It seems that women who don't play the game several of the men here want them to play then they are "bad." I don't understand that, but each to his own.

 

While I find woman bashing viewpoints fascinating, and oftentimes hilarious, I realize that I'm currently the one happily in a relationship while they are not. I think that alone speaks volumes as to how evil I truly am. I think if you review my posts you will also see I never man bash, and I know that carries over IRL as well. I'm generally a happy person with a positive out look on dating and on life. Sure, I've been screwed over more than most people, but that doesn't mean I've given up on men or love. It has merely made me smarter in my choices. Instead of staying in an unhealthy relationship, I bail as soon as the guy becomes a dick. I give every man the benefit of the doubt in the beginning, and when I find the right one who respects me, I'll be more than happy to get married again.

 

I think my unfailing optimism really does attract guys. Every guy I went out with during my internet dating phase asked for a second date. Those I accepted always asked for a third, and so on. It's not hard to bring "nice" and "good personality" to the table. I always do, and it always pays off. I wish more people were like this.

[Stockalone]

People need to know what they're dealing with before they start to invest themselves in it. People need to be more discerning, which is a very difficult thing to do when you don't even know where you stand yourself.

 

I've watched this same scenario play out in various types of situations. It doesn't matter if it's a boyfriend, wife, or the guy they met at the mini mall last month. Yes, that's right. I said wife.

 

People are going after and choosing people all wrong for themselves because they're not looking at the right things.

 

Investing oneself too much too soon is a problem, I agree. Hence, being more discerning is good. But IME, investing myself emotionally is the only thing that actually makes me want to get to know new people.

 

And you can know people for years, and still not know them.

 

 

Change who they are in what sense?

 

Change things about themselves that hamper/prevent them from forming relationships with the opposite sex.

 

 

Happiness is a choice.

 

I disagree.

[and.then.some]

You can know people for years, and still not know them.

 

Of course... hence the reason so many people end up with all the "wrong" people. I'm not claiming this is fool proof, especially as we all change to some degree over time. However, if you only know yourself in a very shallow way, then you're not going to look for the deeper things in another person.

 

Prime example... Girl is dating a guy who isn't very attentive or considerate. He has her doing all sorts of things for him, but he does nothing for her in return. Her birthday comes around and he's an inconsiderate jerk. For some reason, she's very surprised by this.

 

Wow! Why?! Because she hasn't defined herself (for lack of better terms) nor has she done the same for him. I don't mean lumping one's self or other people in to categories necessarily, but simply having an understanding, in no uncertain terms, of who and what you are and what you require.

 

Investing oneself too much too soon is a problem, I agree. Hence, being more discerning is good. But IME, investing myself emotionally is the only thing that actually makes me want to get to know new people.

But what's too soon?! Too soon isn't a time frame. Too soon is before you really get to see a person's character. Sometimes it may take time before the two of you land in certain situations and you have a chance to see how this person will react. However, time and time again I've noticed people overlook some very obvious and basic things.

 

 

Change things about themselves that hamper/prevent them from forming relationships with the opposite sex.

That's entirely too general.

 

 

I disagree.

Disagree if you must, but it's true (unless you have some medical condition preventing you from being happy). Happiness is having the ability to count all of your blessings and honestly see the good in them... not just as things to shrug off. If you lose your job it can be a very sad and depressing day when all you think of is your bad luck. Or, it can be a day when you have a chance to look for something more fulfilling or follow a dream. True enough, the more responsibilities you have, the more stressful such a situation may become. But we choose the perspective... We choose to listen to doubts and fears more than all of the positives. That's what stands in the way of happiness.

 

Do you go on the job interviews sad and depressed because you're unemployed and may not get this job either? How's that gonna work out?

Edited January 8, 2010 by and.then.some

[Stockalone]

Of course... hence the reason so many people end up with all the "wrong" people. I'm not claiming this is fool proof, especially as we all change to some degree over time. However, if you only know yourself in a very shallow way, then you're not going to look for the deeper things in another person.

 

Prime example... Girl is dating a guy who isn't very attentive or considerate. He has her doing all sorts of things for him, but he does nothing for her in return. Her birthday comes around and he's an inconsiderate jerk. For some reason, she's very surprised by this.

 

Wow! Why?! Because she hasn't defined herself (for lack of better terms) nor has she done the same for him. I don't mean lumping one's self or other people in to categories necessarily, but simply having an understanding, in no uncertain terms, of who and what you are and what you require.

 

People should do things because they feel it's the right thing to do, not because someone makes them do those things.

 

I give what I give freely, hence I don't regret having done those things if a friendship or relationship ends.

 

If those acts are never reciprocated and one person only takes, people have to make a choice how to react to that and rethink the friendship/relationship.

 

 

But what's too soon?! Too soon isn't a time frame. Too soon is before you really get to see a person's character. Sometimes it may take time before the two of you land in certain situations and you have a chance to see how this person will react. However, time and time again I've noticed people overlook some very obvious and basic things.

 

Not all people are the same. Obvious and basic to you, those things may mean little to someone else.

 

With too soon, I mean too soon for one person in the relationship/dating situation. If people are on the same page, this won't be an issue.

 

 

That's entirely too general.

 

What needs to change is individual, hence the general statement. We could obviously argue about certain concrete examples/situations, but I don't see what that would achieve in terms of a general discussion about this subject.

 

 

Disagree if you must, but it's true (unless you have some medical condition preventing you from being happy). Happiness is having the ability to count all of your blessings and honestly see the good in them... not just as things to shrug off. If you lose your job it can be a very sad and depressing day when all you think of is your bad luck. Or, it can be a day when you have a chance to look for something more fulfilling or follow a dream. True enough, the more responsibilities you have, the more stressful such a situation may become. But we choose the perspective... We choose to listen to doubts and fears more than all of the positives. That's what stands in the way of happiness.

 

There were things that I thought would make me happy but when I achieved those things, I wasn't always happy. That is why I don't think we choose a perspective.

 

The things that made me happy, I strive to repeat or hold onto in the first place. Happiness is an emotion, being content, satisfied with certain things. It's either there or it isn't.

 

It's similar to attraction. Forcing it is impossible.

 

 

Do you go on the job interviews sad and depressed because you're unemployed and may not get this job either? How's that gonna work out?

 

I view a job search or a job interview emotionless. I am neither sad nor depressed, I am indifferent.

 

A job is something that is not important to me, I go there to work 9-5 (to earn the money that I need to live) and forget about work as soon as I leave the office.

 

My only concern/emotion is that without a job, paying the bills is more difficult.

[OceanTropic]

lol I sense bitterness my friend!!

 

To put it bluntly, women are b*tches. And men have to deal with us.

 

That being said, men don't approach women as much, and women become desperate. Maybe desperate isn't the right word..

 

 

Women love and need affection just as much as men do, we just don't make it obvious because we will come off as desperate or needy. When we act confident and happy, men either assume that a) we are taken or b) we will reject them.

 

Men don't hate women, I think every man wants to be comforted and loved by a woman, unfortunately its a lot harder to find a female companion who will stand by a man these days, so I can understand the frustration.

[and.then.some]

lol I sense bitterness my friend!!

 

To put it bluntly, women are b*tches. And men have to deal with us.

 

That being said, men don't approach women as much, and women become desperate. Maybe desperate isn't the right word..

 

 

Women love and need affection just as much as men do, we just don't make it obvious because we will come off as desperate or needy. When we act confident and happy, men either assume that a) we are taken or b) we will reject them.

 

Men don't hate women, I think every man wants to be comforted and loved by a woman, unfortunately its a lot harder to find a female companion who will stand by a man these days, so I can understand the frustration.

 

If this was directed towards the OP, then your spidey senses are off. :-) In looking around through the forums, it just amazes me how many men are so angry towards women. All of this anger and frustration is not going to help them get what they really want.

 

It's not my claim that men hate women. I'm not even claiming that all men hate women. I'm speaking specifically of those men (and women) who seem to be stuck in the same pattern. Nothing more, and nothing less.

[and.then.some]

People should do things because they feel it's the right thing to do, not because someone makes them do those things.

 

I never said "made". And you've skipped over the point entirely.

 

The point here was her surprise that he would do something that is totally within his character. She was surprised because she didn't know his character as well as she should have.

 

There's a difference between knowing that a person doesn't behave as you would have him/her behave ideally, and putting that behavior in terms of "inconsiderate" or "apathetic". And then, making it more specific.

 

It's not that his character was totally hidden. It's that she wasn't looking in the right places. "Job. check. car. check. apartment. check. single. check. likes me. check."

 

It's a classic case of being unable to see the forest for the trees...

 

I give what I give freely, hence I don't regret having done those things if a friendship or relationship ends.

 

If those acts are never reciprocated and one person only takes, people have to make a choice how to react to that and rethink the friendship/relationship.

Of course, and that is exactly what I'm speaking of... the negative reactions. You're looping back over what is pretty much a given in this conversation. That's not going to get us anywhere. It's not about you specifically, it's about how when we as people are kind to others, we often expect that kindness may be shown in return. It's not necessarily that one gives to receive in all cases, but rather some expectation that equal respect would be shown down the road. This is why people are so darn angry.

 

But, thanks to all those trees, people are totally missing the bigger picture.

 

 

Not all people are the same. Obvious and basic to you, those things may mean little to someone else.

On the contrary, they're very basic as they're the common complaints of people in the dating world...

 

With too soon, I mean too soon for one person in the relationship/dating situation. If people are on the same page, this won't be an issue.

That's not always true. Some people have different expectations, and different lifestyles. All too often, people get sucked into the things they like about a person and totally ignore all of things that make lasting relationships. Or, at least, what would be required for a relationship with them to last.

 

What needs to change is individual, hence the general statement. We could obviously argue about certain concrete examples/situations, but I don't see what that would achieve in terms of a general discussion about this subject.

I understand that, but even the statement itself is too general. Changing yourself just to attract others is entirely too general and I would never suggest anything so general...

 

There were things that I thought would make me happy but when I achieved those things, I wasn't always happy. That is why I don't think we choose a perspective.

 

The things that made me happy, I strive to repeat or hold onto in the first place. Happiness is an emotion, being content, satisfied with certain things. It's either there or it isn't.

 

It's similar to attraction. Forcing it is impossible.

I agree that forcing happiness is impossible in a manner of speaking. You can't just say "okay i'm happy now". But a change in perspective can lead to happiness. That is a choice. Accepting what is. But, it is also a process. And... one that may need to be repeated more than once over the course of your life.

 

It's not about the things or reaching the goal, as most of those things are fleeting. It's about seeing the good in what is. It's not in reaching your goals and desires. Desire is a part of life. So long as we live, we will desire. It doesn't matter what you gain. You could get 10 million dollars, but before long, you will still want something else.

 

It's not the things at all... It's a state of being... a state of awareness... your mindset.

 

I view a job search or a job interview emotionless. I am neither sad nor depressed, I am indifferent.

 

A job is something that is not important to me, I go there to work 9-5 (to earn the money that I need to live) and forget about work as soon as I leave the office.

 

My only concern/emotion is that without a job, paying the bills is more difficult.

That could be a problem... But that's for another discussion, in another forum, at some other time.

 

The point of that example should still work then. It would be the same as being indifferent with people. In some situations it may not pose a problem. Yet in most every situation, how you look (facial expressions, body language), and other mannerisms can either help or hurt you.

Edited January 9, 2010 by and.then.some

[and.then.some]

It's not my claim that men hate women. I'm not even claiming that all men on this forum hate women. I'm speaking specifically of those men (and women) who seem to be stuck in the same pattern. Nothing more, and nothing less.

 

I forgot that part.

[lovelydemon]

I find myself investing emotionally in new relationships right away, whether it is just a new friend or a prospect date.

I find that the reason I do so is not because I don't know myself (which of course I don't a full 100%) but because i tend to reciprocate my positive attitude towards this person.

As the OP said it takes time to see how this person will react in different situations. In my last relationship that lasted 5 years, i made a mistake of moving in with the guy before I could really know him (after less than 6 months to be exact) only to find out that he wasn't right for me.

So now I am really trying to stay more indifferent towards new people in my life so I can see a clear picture of what the person is. Although I do find it extremely hard to do so, any suggestions?

[Stockalone]

I never said "made". And you've skipped over the point entirely.

 

You said:

 

He has her doing all sorts of things for him

 

I thought that the "he has her doing" implied that he makes her do those things for him rather than her volunteering to do those things.

 

 

The point here was her surprise that he would do something that is totally within his character. She was surprised because she didn't know his character as well as she should have.

 

That the woman in this scenario would be surprised makes her naive, but I don't see anything wrong with hoping for people to be good. If they turn out to be not good, then we can deal with that when it happens.

 

Also, if I treated everyone as someone who has the potential to screw me over, I would stop talking to other people altogether.

 

 

There's a difference between knowing that a person doesn't behave as you would have him/her behave ideally, and putting that behavior in terms of "inconsiderate" or "apathetic". And then, making it more specific.

 

I don't understand what you mean here.

 

 

It's not that his character was totally hidden. It's that she wasn't looking in the right places. "Job. check. car. check. apartment. check. single. check. likes me. check."

 

That depends on what you mean with not being very attentive or considerate.

 

Every man can be an inconsiderate jerk sometimes, but does he do it on purpose, was it a mistake or a misunderstanding, etc.? How often does it happen?

 

 

It's a classic case of being unable to see the forest for the trees...

 

If it is a behavioral pattern that gets ignored, then yes, I suppose it does.

 

 

Of course, and that is exactly what I'm speaking of... the negative reactions. You're looping back over what is pretty much a given in this conversation. That's not going to get us anywhere. It's not about you specifically, it's about how when we as people are kind to others, we often expect that kindness may be shown in return. It's not necessarily that one gives to receive in all cases, but rather some expectation that equal respect would be shown down the road. This is why people are so darn angry.

 

I don't know what "looping back" means either. Sorry.

 

Kindness is something that we all should be shown and certainly something that should be reciprocated, regardless of circumstances. Of course people are going to be angry if they are being treated in a rude way.

 

 

On the contrary, they're very basic as they're the common complaints of people in the dating world...

 

Could you give a few examples, please?

 

 

That's not always true. Some people have different expectations, and different lifestyles. All too often, people get sucked into the things they like about a person and totally ignore all of things that make lasting relationships. Or, at least, what would be required for a relationship with them to last.

 

I think that different expectations and different lifestyles would become issues before people get into a relationship.

 

Granted, I had that happen to me once, but I was still a student back then and the differences regarding lifestyles (monetary issues) weren't that easy to detect.

 

 

I understand that, but even the statement itself is too general. Changing yourself just to attract others is entirely too general and I would never suggest anything so general...

 

What statement would you have made then?

 

 

I agree that forcing happiness is impossible in a manner of speaking. You can't just say "okay i'm happy now". But a change in perspective can lead to happiness. That is a choice. Accepting what is. But, it is also a process. And... one that may need to be repeated more than once over the course of your life.

 

Accepting what is doesn't necessarily lead to a change in perspective. Our perception will always be our reality. And our reality will shape our perception.

 

 

It's not about the things or reaching the goal, as most of those things are fleeting. It's about seeing the good in what is. It's not in reaching your goals and desires. Desire is a part of life. So long as we live, we will desire. It doesn't matter what you gain. You could get 10 million dollars, but before long, you will still want something else.

 

Hmm, I never got bored with the things that made me happy. I believe people can be content with what they have if what they have makes them happy.

 

It doesn't have to be higher, faster, bigger, etc.

 

 

It's not the things at all... It's a state of being... a state of awareness... your mindset.

 

There were achievements that caused that emotion and made me happy. Being good at sports made me happy. And being in a loving relationship made me happy.

 

I am certainly not happy with my love life if I am not in a loving relationship. I can't replace that happiness with something else.

 

 

The point of that example should still work then. It would be the same as being indifferent with people. In some situations it may not pose a problem. Yet in most every situation, how you look (facial expressions, body language), and other mannerisms can either help or hurt you.

 

When I am indifferent towards most people (except for friends and family), it means I don't pay attention to those around me and thus it can't hurt nor help me. If there is no interaction, there is no positive or negative.

[meerkat stew]

When I look around here, I see lots of men who hate women, but I haven't noticed a man-hating woman yet!

 

"Hate"... it's funny. I (not a republican by a long shot) can tell someone's political membership in the zany, knee-jerk world of the left by how many times they hyperbolically use the word "hate." Everything is about hating these days, no possibility of disagreement, if you don't like my point of view or call me out, it couldn't be a matter of simple disagreement, frustration, venting or criticism, but must necessarily be "hate."

 

One of the most pervasive propaganda tools of the left is to convert all disagreement and dissent into "hatred," because hatred is intuitively bad, right? And if you can accuse the other side of hate, you can stop the analysis right there and needn't put the effort into rational discussion and argument. Convenient, and also atrociously disingenuous.

 

Do you really see lots of men who "hate" women here? I see hardly any men who "hate" women here, but rather men who hate how women have behaved towards them and made them feel, and because, unlike women, they have no external support networks, they come here to the net to blow off steam.

 

There are forums out there for men who truly hate women, and this is not one. Men who truly hate women don't continue to converse or argue with them, people only vent and discuss when they feel there is still hope for their situations and attitudes to change. Dyed in the wool bigots, for example, have no reason to discuss anything with those they feel prejudice against.

 

Does it ever occur to any of you ladies on LS that the reason guys post the same things over and over is not that they "hate" women, but are looking for either a) some sympathy and acceptance that some women do behave badly and irrationally, or b) that there is a rational argument against their position that doesn't consist of the same old cliche' ridden "it's all your attitude" or "you are just a misogynist"?

 

Actually, I've never personally met a woman who hates men.

 

No one states "I hate women, I hate men." I know otherwise quality women who sit around in groups and run down men constantly, ironically they run down women more. Do these women "hate" men and women? Maybe some do, most are just crabbing and blowing off steam. We all do that, it's part of being human.

 

What I do see here and elsewhere, on the part of women, is to steadfastly internalize and personalize every complaint that men make, as if by saying some woman or several, or even most women have treated him badly, that YOU did it, that ALL women did it, that it impunes the entire gender. Surely you are more intellectually mature than you seem when you internalize and personalize every criticism as somehow impuning or insulting you personally. When you do this, you know what? It just reaffirms men's bad attitudes about you.

 

Who wants to be with a mean, angry, and unhappy person? I get it. You've been treated poorly and you've had bad experiences. But when you carry that around with you it shows. These things do show in your temperament, body language, and so forth. How you feel dictates how you carry yourself. Often times, other people can pick up subtleties that you didn't even know you were sending out into the world.

 

And here you are proactively repeating the trite old saw that has a kernel of truth, but is mostly BS. I know, and most men know, that past a certain level of basic human carriage, attitude matters very little when compared to looks, height, and wealth, when attracting women. We know that because... we date and pursue women, over years and decades. YOU DON'T. Yet you keep repeating this platitude as if by repetition it becomes true. Can you see how after repetition over time, repeating that cliche' becomes quite obnoxious to the men it's targetted at? Yes, fine, attitude is important, and there are some small few who have used attitude to overcome their deficiencies in other areas, but these are a tiny minority compared to the general male experience. For most men attitude is third or fourth down the line of attributes, you know it, we know it.

 

As far as the lecturing tone of the rest of your post, fine, I'm doing some of that myself right now, but when it's the same lecture over and over, do you think it really helps matters? Does it make you feel good to deliver the same trite lecture about repeating mistakes over and over? Aren't these lectures and platitudes clever female blame shifting mechanisms, at least in part?

 

I've seen more woman hating on this board than the other way around as well. Heck, I even got bashed for *gasp* introducing two guys to my friends and then asking their opinions how compatible they thought each of these guys were for me. Apparently that makes me one of the evil women and that was some type of hoop the poor men had to jump through. It seems that women who don't play the game several of the men here want them to play then they are "bad." I don't understand that, but each to his own.

 

Perfect. QED. So, because I criticized your behavior (behavior that I would have criticized in any of my male friends), I "hate" you? I'm bashing you as a woman:rolleyes: Actually, I have enjoyed many of your posts. Because I disagree with your behavior and criticize it, and you don't like that, I become a woman-hater bashing women. That's the logic right? That which disagrees with my behavior, hates me and bashes me as a woman. Perfect. This is exactly the rationalizing, internalizing, personalizing thinking that drives men to distraction when trying to discuss gender issues or anything at all for that matter, with women. If you don't say it out loud, you make it painfully obvious that every criticism or disagreement we make is perceived as levelled at you personally and consists of hatred and bashing. Grow the f*ck up already.

 

While I find woman bashing viewpoints fascinating, and oftentimes hilarious, I realize that I'm currently the one happily in a relationship while they are not.

 

And here you continue to build a house of cards on top of the previous straw man, while slyly inserting a blunt insult to all the men here who are struggling with finding a GF. No, OP, women don't come right out and say that they hate men, they express their disdainful, spiteful attitudes in this subtle manner, calculated to insult while simultaneously maintaining a privileged, self-righteous attitude. THAT's how the women here on LS do it.

[TheBigQuestion]

meerkat, two things.

 

1.)You've repeated many times that the guys who come on here to complain about how women are irrational/mean-spirited/what-have-you have some sort of inalienable right to be here, regardless of the fact that they refuse to listen to anyone else's viewpoints or advice. This is a mistake. When people go on a forum simply to "vent" or create controversy with sweeping generalizations about a gender, and refuse to try to change in any way, shape, or form (because they claim they've "tried everything," which I don't doubt for a second is mere self-delusion), this is simply trolling and nothing more. It adds nothing constructive to this message board.

 

All you do by supporting these people is perpetuate their victim complexes and make this message board a less pleasant and constructive place to be. These people are venting and trying to point fingers at EVERYONE. How do you not expect people to find this outrageous? Blaming others, blaming a gender, blaming the world is always easier than finding out that the faults lie within you. I've heard people vent about women before, in person and on the internet. There's a HUGE difference between being pissed about some women screwing you over and venting about it once in a while and CONSTANT self-obsessed victimization that borders on mental illness. How exactly do you expect the female posters on LS to hear these kinds of generalizations to NOT want to defend themselves?

 

How can it be that all the people here who HAVE hit rock-bottom and worked their way back up, who give all sorts of advice on how to pick oneself up by the bootstraps, are just dead wrong? Anyone who has tried an actual attitude adjustment (not just telling yourself that you are great and worthy, but truly examining priorities on a deep level and making life changes accordingly) would agree that it goes a long way. Far longer than you or any of the beta-males are willing to admit, probably because they half-assed it, just like they half-assed every other effort to make themselves better and aren't able to identify it.

 

2.) You're also very fixated on this idea of a societal bias against men. Regardless of whether or not this exists to the extent that you claim it does (and as a man, I don't think so), it doesn't change the fact that everyone, of both genders, has had problems dating and relating to others at some point in their lives. Some take their failures in stride, learn from them, and try to improve continuously. Others place the blame on the world because it's far easier for them to do so. So let's summarize. EVERYONE has had problems with the other gender. EVERYONE has gotten screwed over. EVERYONE has had communication problems. It's not just you, it's not just guys who aren't millionaires, it's not just guys under 5'7' or whatever neurotic crap an LS beta-male spews. Some people don't have the coping skills but try to learn them. Some people also refuse to listen to anything they are told that may help them out. The latter post a lot on this forum, the former do not. The latter are truly hopeless because they are condemning themselves.

[Woggle]

Misandrists don't come right out and say they hate men but it shows in their general attitude. It shows in how many women on this board excuse female cheating by saying that men have done it for years or that they fell out of love so it is okay. The generally dismissive attitude towards men on this board who have experienced real pain and real heartbreak is all the proof I need of misandry. You can tell that many of these women simply look down on men. Misandry is very subtle and not in your face so it is hard to notice.

 

I think the anger that many of these men express comes from the fact they feel lied to and cheated. All their lives they were raised to respect women and treat them as equal and intelligent people then they get out in the real world and find out that that gets them nowhere. The men they were always not to be are the big winners in the modern day dating world and when you find out you have been lied to all your life it stings bad.