not sure how to title this....

January 7, 2010

Please understand, the following is NOT in any way meant to be judgemental towards anyone..

So, my husband and I were watching a movie the other night. The movie involved infidelity (as so many do), and the OW (who was the star) in the movie was dumped by the man, who returned to his wife. OK... that's the setting.

After the movie was concluded my husband said, "I don't understand why a woman who chases after a married man is surprised when she gets dumped."

Now, I'd like to add that IN THIS MOVIE, the OW did NOT (in my opinion), chase after the man, until WELL after he had first pursued her...

So... that's the subject matter... now here's the question:

Is it possible that (at least some) MM simply do NOT see that they have elicited the interest? That they do NOT see themselves as culpable in any way, because in their opinion, they are simply being "friendly"? In other words, they tell their wives (after the fact), that it was "all the woman", not because it is, obviously, but because they simply cannot see their input into the situation? (I am talking more about an EA here, than a PA, because I don't think even the blindest of men, couldn't see his input in a PA...)

and the 2nd question:

Is it possible that (at least some) OW who are hurt, are hurt mostly because of what they have assumed and or hoped a situation to be, rather than by reality.

Thanks... like I said - no judgement here - just questions that arose for me.

January 7, 2010

Please understand, the following is NOT in any way meant to be judgemental towards anyone..

So, my husband and I were watching a movie the other night. The movie involved infidelity (as so many do), and the OW (who was the star) in the movie was dumped by the man, who returned to his wife. OK... that's the setting.

After the movie was concluded my husband said, "I don't understand why a woman who chases after a married man is surprised when she gets dumped."

Now, I'd like to add that IN THIS MOVIE, the OW did NOT (in my opinion), chase after the man, until WELL after he had first pursued her...

So... that's the subject matter... now here's the question:

Is it possible that (at least some) MM simply do NOT see that they have elicited the interest? That they do NOT see themselves as culpable in any way, because in their opinion, they are simply being "friendly"? In other words, they tell their wives (after the fact), that it was "all the woman", not because it is, obviously, but because they simply cannot see their input into the situation? (I am talking more about an EA here, than a PA, because I don't think even the blindest of men, couldn't see his input in a PA...)

and the 2nd question:

Is it possible that (at least some) OW who are hurt, are hurt mostly because of what they have assumed and or hoped a situation to be, rather than by reality.

Thanks... like I said - no judgement here - just questions that arose for me.

It's easy for me to answer this, because I was the one who did the instigating. My MM "victims" were all nice, loyal, faithful guys who would never dream of having an A... until suddenly they found themselves being propositioned.

However, those were all PAs. I was accused of having an EA with a long-standing male friend, in whom I had absolutely no romantic interest, by a GF of his who felt threatened by how close we were and what all we discussed (including our Rs, and the fact that he felt very ambivalent about her). She accused me of starting this EA with him "because he would never betray her like that" (she'd known him about a year, I'd known him about 15 years...) and it was all projected onto me... who was the one with no romantic interest! (Yes, he did "have feelings" for me, which we'd discussed many years before - and he knew I valued him as a friend but had no romantic designs on him, so he knew pretty clearly where he stood.) So the projection of culpability was completely external in that case - I still contest the existence of the "EA", and my friend doesn't believe such things exist so he thinks she watches too much Oprah and if she'd just get over herself, things would be better.... But yes, I could see how a guy like that could get badgered into believing that "the OW" had trapped him into an EA against his will

As to the expectations thing - I think I've mooted that on here before....

January 7, 2010

With the MM I was involved with it was pretty much split 50/50 down the line. We were both in serious relationships when we started and we both knew the risk we were taking, or that we thought we were taking. When we felt ourselves slipping recklessly into it we said we would each take responsibility for anything that occurs as a result. That was when we thought it would be a one-time thing. But, it grew and became more dangerous. We never got caught but back when I was still with my other partner we came close a couple of times, mostly because of my suspicious behaviour. At one point I thought my partner knew everything and I voiced my concerns and warning to MM in case it went to his wife. He told me then never to feel blame for anything that occurs and we'd ride it out together.

It's all moot now because he's trying with his family and because we never got caught he never had to 'throw me under the bus'. The hurt that came from the end of our relationship was not because I'd built up my own false hope, but because he had done it for me. He was, or so he thought, definite in what he wanted... but changed his mind. And I realise our situation was not reality - it was an affair, but a lot of the women on these forums seem to have a similar tale to tell, and the hopes seem to be given to them by the MM, not their own sense of delusion.

January 7, 2010

yes, well...when such men think with their dicks, it's easy to see why they're so susceptible.

Let's do as the OP has said, and keep the vindictive, bitchy and judgemental out of the thread, shall we?

January 7, 2010

I believe yes up to the point that the man makes any actions toward the OW at that point they have accepted the terms and are actively participating.

You can be flirted with and not flirt back. So I can see a man being surprised (and know many who have been) or shocked to find out a woman is interested in them. But their boundaries are still their boundaries, just because she is disclosing her life story he is actively disclosing his, expressing his emotions, etc.

January 7, 2010

Sorry... to clarify...for greengoddess.....

yes, well...when such men think with their dicks, it's easy to see why they're so susceptible.

Let's do as the OP has said, and keep the vindictive, bitchy and judgemental out of the thread, shall we?

January 7, 2010

Hi OWoman... I know that some people consider any friendship between a man and a woman to be an EA. I don't fall in that group, so in my mind the "EA" the man's girlfriend was accusing him of was her own insecurity. But, that said, I also think there is such a thing as an EA. One where relationship between the two is discussed and considered but never consumated - whether because of distance or some level of reluctance or whatever.... so that is a little more where I was going with this.

Of course, in the movie, the relationship was consumated, as movies always are, so probably my question really wasn't full flavored enough either. I was a just surprised at my husband's statement, because IMO - in the movie- she thought she wasn't going to get dumped, because he said he loved her, left his wife, and started looking for an apartment with her.... but she started the relationship with the man knowing he was married.

So, maybe the question is a little more of... "What is it that is really going on in anyone's head?" I don't know. I know that I ended up confused, not so much because of the movie, but because of the completely different reactions that my husband and I had at the end of it. I felt bad for the other woman, he felt confused about her.

January 7, 2010

With the MM I was involved with it was pretty much split 50/50 down the line. We were both in serious relationships when we started and we both knew the risk we were taking, or that we thought we were taking. When we felt ourselves slipping recklessly into it we said we would each take responsibility for anything that occurs as a result. That was when we thought it would be a one-time thing. But, it grew and became more dangerous. We never got caught but back when I was still with my other partner we came close a couple of times, mostly because of my suspicious behaviour. At one point I thought my partner knew everything and I voiced my concerns and warning to MM in case it went to his wife. He told me then never to feel blame for anything that occurs and we'd ride it out together.

It's all moot now because he's trying with his family and because we never got caught he never had to 'throw me under the bus'. The hurt that came from the end of our relationship was not because I'd built up my own false hope, but because he had done it for me. He was, or so he thought, definite in what he wanted... but changed his mind. And I realise our situation was not reality - it was an affair, but a lot of the women on these forums seem to have a similar tale to tell, and the hopes seem to be given to them by the MM, not their own sense of delusion.

Hazyhead - Firstly, your comment about him "never had to throw you under the bus" why would he have to do that? There are many MP who, even caught, do not throw the OP under the bus. They take responsibility for their actions and have their spouse focus it on them; where it belongs.

And your comment "I realise our situation was not reality - it was an affair" contrary to popular belief that is reality. Fantasy would be that you imagined the who situation. Reality was the affair, the lies or mispeakings were what he thought his intentions were going to be or ever were. I never understood that comment about the affair not being reality. Ever relationship is different but I know, in my case, there was more reality in our relationship than the other way around. I agree with the last part and it is usually the MP giving misleading lines to the OP about their hope or dreams for the future. I believe that it is reality that the MP means what they are saying (not all but most) but when/if dday happens or the OP draws the line in the sand they cannot put it in motion.

So for most people, in all areas of life, you have to look to see if the actions follow the words. I have had plenty of relationships where the person talks the talk but never walks the walk. One of my favorite phrases for this (and what I used threw out my EMR) is "there are some people who watch things happen, there are some people who talk about things happening, and there are some people who make sh*t happen.

January 7, 2010

I know that I ended up confused, not so much because of the movie, but because of the completely different reactions that my husband and I had at the end of it. I felt bad for the other woman, he felt confused about her.

Interesting observation!

I have come to realize that men handle, process and just view relationships, especially romantic ones, very differently than women.

Women drive themselves crazy trying to figure out why men do as they do in relationships (and the inverse is also true--men are mystified by how women relate to them). This goes for marriage, boyfriend/girlfriend relationships, EMA's, FWB's situations...

Think about it if...if men and women largely viewed romantic relationships in the same way...LS would be a very boring and rarely visited place, at least on the romantic forums!

January 7, 2010

Hi OWoman... I know that some people consider any friendship between a man and a woman to be an EA. I don't fall in that group, so in my mind the "EA" the man's girlfriend was accusing him of was her own insecurity. But, that said, I also think there is such a thing as an EA. One where relationship between the two is discussed and considered but never consumated - whether because of distance or some level of reluctance or whatever.... so that is a little more where I was going with this.

Of course, in the movie, the relationship was consumated, as movies always are, so probably my question really wasn't full flavored enough either. I was a just surprised at my husband's statement, because IMO - in the movie- she thought she wasn't going to get dumped, because he said he loved her, left his wife, and started looking for an apartment with her.... but she started the relationship with the man knowing he was married.

So, maybe the question is a little more of... "What is it that is really going on in anyone's head?" I don't know. I know that I ended up confused, not so much because of the movie, but because of the completely different reactions that my husband and I had at the end of it. I felt bad for the other woman, he felt confused about her.

It could be because of how he perceives the "OW", how he perceives your marriage, you, the stereotypes of affairs, etc. You would have to ask him to deep dive it a little more. Maybe from experience, affairs he may have knowledge of, the MP never leaves for the OP. Maybe based on his belief that he would never leave the marriage with you that even if another person EVER factor in, he would never leave the marriage, maybe he thought she was a dud, thought the guy was a schemer, and had that reaction.

I think EMA fall along the same lines of most relationships and they do not work out but there have been enough over time to show that isn't a hard and fast rule.

January 7, 2010

Sorry... to clarify...for greengoddess.....

??????????

January 7, 2010

Hazyhead - Firstly, your comment about him "never had to throw you under the bus" why would he have to do that? There are many MP who, even caught, do not throw the OP under the bus. They take responsibility for their actions and have their spouse focus it on them; where it belongs.

And your comment "I realise our situation was not reality - it was an affair" contrary to popular belief that is reality. Fantasy would be that you imagined the who situation. Reality was the affair, the lies or mispeakings were what he thought his intentions were going to be or ever were. I never understood that comment about the affair not being reality. Ever relationship is different but I know, in my case, there was more reality in our relationship than the other way around. I agree with the last part and it is usually the MP giving misleading lines to the OP about their hope or dreams for the future. I believe that it is reality that the MP means what they are saying (not all but most) but when/if dday happens or the OP draws the line in the sand they cannot put it in motion.

So for most people, in all areas of life, you have to look to see if the actions follow the words. I have had plenty of relationships where the person talks the talk but never walks the walk. One of my favorite phrases for this (and what I used threw out my EMR) is "there are some people who watch things happen, there are some people who talk about things happening, and there are some people who make sh*t happen.

Sorry, Got it, to clarify I was saying those things to kind of second guess what might be said, which is presumptuous I know. I mean if posters had fairly pointed out that it's ok for me to say, 'He was going to support me all the way if discovered', because he never had to prove that. If I'm honest I believed him. Still do. I think he would have taken the wrap. I know and understand his reasons for going home and take responsibility for getting myself into a situation that I knew was dangerous. Both of us went into it with our eyes open and we always maintained that if discovered we would stand by the truth (I know - ironic), and face the consequences.

For me, it was reality, but what I meant with that one was that we never had to face the stressful issues of daily life so I can idealise him pretty easily and keep him up on his pedestal, rather than calling him irresponsible.

Sorry for being unclear - I can be a waffler. I completely agree with you though about actions following words. Words are just words and that's why whilst that is all they are, I'm staying well away.

January 7, 2010

So, maybe the question is a little more of... "What is it that is really going on in anyone's head?"

The million-dollar question. I don't even know my own. If I had to guess I'd say it wasn't my head leading me, I chose to ignore it completely feeling that ignorance was bliss.

January 7, 2010

Gosh you must be an amazing woman. What a talent to be able to lure nice loyal faitful men from their wives. It must really give you an incredible high.

A truly loyal and faithful man can't be "lured" away from his wife, despite what most here seem to think. If he can, then calling him loyal and faithful is nothing more than an oxymoron.

January 7, 2010

1- Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I was not dumped by the MM. He left and divorced, and I left him. I was never "surprised" by his failure to cut ties with his xW, but expecting the worst doesn't make it hurt any less when it happens. I still "hoped" for the best because I thought he was capable of making unselfish decision based on everyone's needs, not just his own. And THAT was my mistake. That is a trait of his personality, and not related to his marital status when we met.

But to get back to that original question, I know he honestly believes and told his xW he was not pursuing me (at the beginning). He acknowledges pursung me everytime I left him. Interestingly though, he doesn't entirely blame me for the initial pursuit either - but i think that has to do with his definition of pursuit. In his mind, he never asked me on an official "date", he just asked me to "lunch", and feeling developed over time. But since there was no official offer of a relationship, he doesn't consider that pursuit. It's a really split-hairs way to look at it, but apparently the only way he can think of it without being overwhelmed by how bad his own behavior was. The truth would make him feel like too much of a bad person.

2- In my case no. xDM made lots of lofty promises to me. And he moved out and got divorced. We got engaged. I had a reason to expect that he was committed to me. I got hurt because I really believed he'd be capable of seeting boundaries with his xW over time as he moved on with me. He lied about his desire to do that and how he interacted with her. He told me what he wanted to be true, rather than the actual truth. And though I had some signs to the contrary, there was enough in the right direction that I believed what he said.

January 7, 2010

Sorry, Got it, to clarify I was saying those things to kind of second guess what might be said, which is presumptuous I know. I mean if posters had fairly pointed out that it's ok for me to say, 'He was going to support me all the way if discovered', because he never had to prove that. If I'm honest I believed him. Still do. I think he would have taken the wrap. I know and understand his reasons for going home and take responsibility for getting myself into a situation that I knew was dangerous. Both of us went into it with our eyes open and we always maintained that if discovered we would stand by the truth (I know - ironic), and face the consequences.

For me, it was reality, but what I meant with that one was that we never had to face the stressful issues of daily life so I can idealise him pretty easily and keep him up on his pedestal, rather than calling him irresponsible.

Sorry for being unclear - I can be a waffler. I completely agree with you though about actions following words. Words are just words and that's why whilst that is all they are, I'm staying well away.

But why would you want to idealize anyone? Why put him on a pedestal? In that case, to me, you are actively trying to make it a fantasy.

Maybe this is where "fantasy" comes in. Maybe some affair partners do this. I wanted and asked for cold hard reality in my EMA. I wanted both of us to be fully aware of where things were at and what the future held and anything contrary was because someone was lying. Not because of anything else.

January 7, 2010

But why would you want to idealize anyone? Why put him on a pedestal? In that case, to me, you are actively trying to make it a fantasy.

Maybe this is where "fantasy" comes in. Maybe some affair partners do this. I wanted and asked for cold hard reality in my EMA. I wanted both of us to be fully aware of where things were at and what the future held and anything contrary was because someone was lying. Not because of anything else.

I think I did live in a fantasy world where he was concerned, but one based in what I wanted the reality to be, and what we had discussed it being. We always said that we didn't know if we would last long term -although it very much felt like we had a strong chance - because an affair does, mostly, exist in a vacuum. I don't think either of us were being dishonest, because we genuinely wanted that. We were just both aware that the way we were when together was ideal and life isn't always like that. I still have him on a pedestal - cant help that feeling, again not because I want him to be a fantasy, but because I love him.

January 7, 2010

I think I did live in a fantasy world where he was concerned, but one based in what I wanted the reality to be, and what we had discussed it being. We always said that we didn't know if we would last long term -although it very much felt like we had a strong chance - because an affair does, mostly, exist in a vacuum. I don't think either of us were being dishonest, because we genuinely wanted that. We were just both aware that the way we were when together was ideal and life isn't always like that. I still have him on a pedestal - cant help that feeling, again not because I want him to be a fantasy, but because I love him.

But truly loving someone is loving the reality of them, not a fantasy. It is about being aware and accepting of the faults. Again each affair is different so I can not judge. I made sure mine was set up, as I could not accept anything differently, than a relationship with a single person. I wanted every day visits, constant contact, vacations, sleep overs, etc. I had a high bar because I saw me accepting his maritial status was a major compromise I was doing for him. And that was compromise enough.

But I never felt, other than some people in our lives not being aware, was it ever in a vacuum. I wasn't sure, still am not sure about our longevity, but I made sure to look at other aspects of him to see if he was a good choice. How does he interact with co workers, superiors, subordinates? How does he treat his mother, his family, yes even his wife. It woudl have been a major red flag for me if he constantly bashed his wife. He didn't. He discussed why they had disconnected, how they had disconnected, and what he felt the problems were, but he did not criticize her or put more on her than on him.

I wanted to make sure I am getting to know, and know, the real person and that he is doing the same.

January 7, 2010

It all goes back to , upon D-Day or discovery the MM "throws OW under the bus."

And that may be so , but you know what...OW (or OM) through herself in front of speeding locomotive.

January 7, 2010

I know he honestly believes and told his xW he was not pursuing me (at the beginning).

xDM made lots of lofty promises to me.

I think your first sentence is basically what I was getting at. In the movie, there was NO QUESTION the MM was pursuing the heroine. She was reluctant, he pursued, etc,

As with you he made a ton of lofty promises...

So. The movie ends, and my husband says he doesn't understand why a woman who "pursues" a married man wouldn't expect to be dumped. It's like huh? . So.... what I'm saying is - I think that at least some men think that NO MATTER WHAT - if they are married and a woman is amenable to becoming involved with them, then that woman is the pursuer.

Thanks... reading all the responses helped me solidify my thoughts....

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