Johnny M Posted January 6, 2010 Posted January 6, 2010 Would you consider the possibility that this is just YOUR truth and how YOU choose to perceive the world? I guess I see many successful relationships that do display these traits. So There are exceptions to every rule. However, what I'm describing is generally true of the contemporary Western society. In the old days, religion was the main motivator behind "moral behavior" (i.e. if you're immoral, you will burn in hell). Things like honesty, integrity and sacrifice are originally judeo-christian concepts. It's not natural for people to act that way; in fact, it goes against our ingrained genetic instincts. Humans are naturally selfish species - we are conditioned to care about our own interests (and those of our offspring) first and foremost. The people you are referring to are a remnant of a bygone era and a quickly dying breed.
Author CrestfallenNoMore Posted January 6, 2010 Author Posted January 6, 2010 You didn't insult me, I was ranting in my original too long post, and have an abrasive style (job hazard). I just get tired of the stock answers anytime the topic of women accepting part of the blame for gender issues comes up. Inevitably, "you are making bad choices" or "you are overgeneralizing" are two of the pet rationalizations women make to males who have issues with women here. You may not know it, but the "nice guy" topic has been done and done here recently, and some of us have well entrenched positions we love to rant on about. I apologize to you for any perceived tone. I'm not as emotionally involved as it seems, just florid with prose. No, I understand. I've experienced a lot of cynicism and been jaded in my own relationships (as my husband left me for another woman) but for me, personally, I felt that being cynical about relationships or men was unfair to men as a whole and it didn't help me achieve my goals or find another meaningful relationship. If it works for others, then I can certainly respect that as we all have a right to believe what we want and figure out what works for us.
skydiveaddict Posted January 6, 2010 Posted January 6, 2010 I keep reading and hearing all the time, on this site, and in life in general that "nice guys" get the shaft. you are completely correct my friend. be the "nice guy" & you will quickly find yourself dumped. It's just a game women play. DONT believe any woman who says she wants a "nice guy'. It's simply not true.
Author CrestfallenNoMore Posted January 6, 2010 Author Posted January 6, 2010 There are exceptions to every rule. However, what I'm describing is generally true of the contemporary Western society. In the old days, religion was the main motivator behind "moral behavior" (i.e. if you're immoral, you will burn in hell). Things like honesty, integrity and sacrifice are originally judeo-christian concepts. It's not natural for people to act that way; in fact, it goes against our ingrained genetic instincts. Humans are naturally selfish species - we are conditioned to care about our own interests (and those of our offspring) first and foremost. The people you are referring to are a remnant of a bygone era and a quickly dying breed. Ok, I see where you're coming from. I'm still hopeful/encouraged/naive or whatever label someone might give me, but I do agree that we are largely selfish as a whole; however, I elect to believe (again, hopeful/encouraged/naive) that I can find someone who exhibits the qualities that I am capable of bringing to a relationship.
SoulSearch_CO Posted January 6, 2010 Posted January 6, 2010 The second kind of "nice guy" that you mentioned is what we call a DOORMAT. And no - that's not sexy in any way. But the guy I'm dating is definitely the first kind you mentioned.
SoulSearch_CO Posted January 6, 2010 Posted January 6, 2010 you are completely correct my friend. be the "nice guy" & you will quickly find yourself dumped. It's just a game women play. DONT believe any woman who says she wants a "nice guy'. It's simply not true. Curious. Did you read the two definitions of nice guys in the rest of that post? Or just the first line of that entire post?
bwidger Posted January 6, 2010 Posted January 6, 2010 The term "nice guy" has a different meaning than what it did to our grandparents probably. It's easy to see why it's confusing, but why can't we just say a normal guy is a nice guy? Why do we all now call a "nice guy" a needy jackass? I say "nice guy" about nice guys and call insecure guys insecure, period. No wonder this topic was created (sigh)...
New_Life08 Posted January 6, 2010 Posted January 6, 2010 "Nice guys" are great when they have their priorities in order. When they don't, they tend to be people pleasers who spread themselves too thin. Going over-board to please everyone except the ones who matter. They tend to sabotage their own love relationships. A good guy is someone who has emotional integrity; when a man has this quality... the rest flows naturally.
sagetalk Posted January 6, 2010 Posted January 6, 2010 I think I'd rather bang 20 hot women because it feels good...and not be remembered at all. I'm not talking about being remembered by people, no, something far better than that. Do that if that is what you want out of life, but I want something greater.
sagetalk Posted January 6, 2010 Posted January 6, 2010 Why is it assumed that a "jerk" is a guy who is goodlooking and can get a lot of women in bed? Now if a man is handsome and wanted by females he is automatically labeled a "jerk"? How unfair! That is like females labeling all gorgeous women "sluts". WTF? No, he is not automatically labeled a jerk for being good looking. A jerk is a guy that sleeps with alot of women who he doesn't care about, nor has any intentions of pursuing a relationship with her. A jerk views women as sex and nothing more, and for some reason they do very well with women and it is a shame and blight on civilization.
Sam Spade Posted January 7, 2010 Posted January 7, 2010 (edited) Or rather aren't high maintenance types and just don't care where to go eat lunch every time or what she wears out. Some men who are fairly content with life and laid back (otherwise known as generally HAPPY, not a word in many female vocabularies) get branded "too nice" because they just don't care about small stuff, and 99% of life is small stuff. The above often decodes into "is not providing my drama quota which I require because I'm jaded and without my drama pickmeup for the day, feel dead inside otherwise. Gee that guy on the harley threatening some other guy with a broken beer bottle looks like he'd keep my drama tank all full up! Rawr!" Girls just want to have fun, as Cyndi L. said, but men just want to relax and lead a stress-free, harmonious existence, no wonder you put us in the grave faster than we do you. I am so traumatised by this childishness, that every time my gf tells my I'm "nice", i tense up and think that maybe I should do something rough to counter-balance it... It's only been in the highly feminized second half of the 20th century that people were expected to go around spouting opinions about everything under the sun. Moreover, some (mostly male) people learn that if they aren't knowledgeable enough on a particular subject, that perhaps any opinion they express will be ignorant and thus not worthy of the energy spent forming the vowels. Silence used to be an enviable trait, not some evil. "Keep your ears open and mouth shut" used to mean something. "Actions speak louder than words" used to be a statement of virtue... until our culture became so radically feminized. Now if you are a man, you are damned if you don't show enough feminine traits and damned if you show too many, but all of them inevitably involve keeping your mouth open at all times in person, via text, on the phone. This kind of shame/common sense mechanism that precludes babbling on about things we don't know tends to elude many women for some reason, who will cheerfully blather forth on any topic, regardless of knowledge level, provided there are ears around to bore and annoy all to hell. As far as doing what she wants to do all the time, most men know how to pick their battles, and rather than make life a constant female drama indulging bicker storm, just go with the flow and wait to make an issue on things that really matter to him. Another lesson women who will gladly bicker and dicker on endlessly haven't quite grasped. Getting into several fistfights growing up and suffering the consequences will generally teach one eventually to become at least some "conflict avoidant." As far as expressing thoughts and needs, again, this wasn't expected of men in times past, and they weren't thought "over-nice" why is it expected now? I know the answer, can anyone guess it? Moreover, the "needs" incessant "needs" today . There are three "needs" food, clothing and shelter. Men aren't the ones who bought into Maslow's claptrap, and have no trouble at all distinguishing a -need- from a -desire-. Finally, the good old communication skills, have heard that old chestnut of a phrase ad nausea, as has any man, yet another weasel word that had no practical existence in 1950. Wonder why it is emphasized so now? I know the answer already, can anyone else guess it? I'm fortunate enough to be blessed with 99th percentile communication skills, and also blessed with the basic common sense to distinguish that there is a point in emotional and relationship discussions when anything resembling communication skills ceases, and emotional diahrrea begins. Am also blessed with a single brain cell worth of knowledge that tells me intuitively to take some quiet time and calm down before unloading my rather considerable verbal powers on loved ones unduly. Women will have none of it, and will sit slothfully and "communicate":lmao: for hours on end about.... nothing other than their self-indulgent hyper-emotionalizing. If you want to retire and cool off, you are conflict avoidant, incommunicative, and emotionally shut off, all feminized, Dr. Phil bogus assed weasel terms designed to guilt men for their natural masculinity. I had a three hour "communication skills" session once about which hole to put my toothbrush in and why it was important, I sh*t you not. OH THE AGONY! Literally Ninth Circle of Hell stuff, but if I don't play along -every time-, there's something wrong with ME, right ladies? This one is a legitimate bad habit, unless one has the not so rare misfortune of being with a woman who is prone to constant melodrama, with feelings and sensitivities thinner than the thinnest parchment. Then it becomes a necessary survival technique. Sure you can dump and move on, but since this melodramatic, paper thin sensitivity problem seems to afflict so many women, start dumping them for this alone at your sexual peril, as the ones who don't suffer thus are few and far between. She may have gained 50 pounds in the year you have been dating, and none of her clothes fit so she wears sweatpants all the time, but o god forbid you ever mention it, in even the most tactful, subtle, affirming way, without getting in the hall and assuming the nuclear fallout position (or as they say, head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye"). Eh, these two are legit, both the "pedestalizing" and the co-dependency, behaviors for anyone involved in a relationship, either gender, wise to avoid. Why so vehement, why seemingly so bitter? I'm not really bitter, but tired to death of seeing these "faux nice guy" lists that lay every bit of blame on the men in question, and neglect entirely to lay some blame at the door of women. Here's what I mean, the nugget of truth: Many of the behaviors that nice guys are dissed for are actually their LACK of character flaws which feed PREEXISTING character flaws in women that our hyper feminized culture has somehow converted into something other than the raw character flaws they are. A more accurate appraisal of relationships that are usually tossed into the "nice guy" lost the girl file would be man who seeks basic masculine peace and harmony in life in ways that DON'T feed into female character flaws such as drama addiction, immature attitudes about infatuation v. love, being a general empty headed blabbermouth, being high maintenance and overly picky about every little thing (I just don't understand that they can't put the onions in rings on my Big Mac; my BF is such a wimp he doesn't care how they make his... he's just too nice sometimes). Most of the nice guy mistakes listed above are actually drama avoidance techniques designed to prevent us from lowering ourselves into the abyss of feminized picky, blathering, blablabla, trivial crap land. Shut up for a minute and don't make an issue of every mundane thing constantly, and you might find we have excellent communication skills, we are just generally terrified to use them. Well, at least I'm not "passive aggressive" here, time for some aggressive-aggressive attitude, guys, in expressing our disgust and anger at these "nice guy" condemnations. Nice guy, for the most part = henpecked man. Time to accept some, even just a little accountability here ladies, but you won't of course, and that's just one more reason why we have little desire to "communicate" with you. None of the above is directed at OP or her/his post, it's as you say, a very good and much needed topic for discussion. That is all. PS here are some preempts: "Where do you find these women? I don't know any." BS, they are 80% of you and you know it, you sit around and run them down more mercilessly than we ever do, you just can't stand to hear a man doing it. "You have a bad attitude about women, why do you even date women?" Because 20% are tolerable odds, I keep looking, but mostly because I like p*ssy very much. "I'm tired of every thread being turned back on a rant about women." This thread itself is a rant about men, why aren't you lined up complaining about that... until someone points out that women are at fault too in the "nice guy" dynamic. Own that big chunk of the problem laying at your door, rather than rationalize that it's all some mythical group of "nice guys" who cause all the trouble. Wiseguy meerkat tells it like it is :lmao: I was just about to post that the complaints are sometimes legitimate, since women do have the tendency to complain about character traits that are perfectly fine and desireable . If you are reliable - it's a problem (he's too nice, I'm getting bored) If he doesn't sweat the small stuff - it's a problem (he's too nice, i'm getting bored) etc. etc. etc. So then the "real man" is really not a real man, but rather a Ken doll who has nothing better to do than "understand" women and provide regular doses of entertainment (such as when he doesn't call when he says he would ) Edited January 7, 2010 by Sam Spade
16thstreet Posted January 7, 2010 Posted January 7, 2010 (edited) Fair enough. Since so many self-proclaimed "nice guys" constantly post about how women always want the "jerks" and elect to label themselves as "nice guys," it was easy for me to use such terminology. I'd agree that the different types could be labelled "Well-balanced men" and "Nice guys," but I think the distinction between the two is still sound. I only date men who fall into the category you list as nice guy #1. I wouldn't even give my number to a thinks-he's-a-nice-guy, or nice guy #2. If did mistakenly go as far to go out on a date with such a guy and realized I was talking to a doormat, it would end there. Another person commented that these guys get frustrated because getting some at least helps them feel that they have some semblance of masculinity left, and so when women such as me shut them down they rant. Not my problem. Perhaps if he figured out how to have a personality, he wouldn't need to have the sex make him feel like a man . . . and certainly he'd be able to get more of it. At least from women like me. I would not give my number to the jerk either. Contrary to the genetic and carnal arguments some raise here regarding the superior strategy of approach #2 (doormat) AND the "jerk" approach (which are, in my view, two different manifestations of very similar insecurities), actually it is my selfish desire to have a mate like your nice guy #1 (well-balanced man) that will challenge me, present alternative ideas, and yet sometimes comfort me when I need it because I think that is what in required in a fulfilling relationship and I, selfishly perhaps, want a fulfilling, enduring relationship so that I can confidently (if we decide to) raise children together and grow old together (should we live that long). Of course, I want to be able to challenge him too and present my own ideas and have give-and-take. Plus, regarding the carnal side, sleeping with a doormat is like having flaccidity in the sack. The jerk usually betrays his insecurities, if nowhere else, in the sack. From a pure savage perspective, it is just gross. A lot of women want to feel like they are possessing something, which is perhaps why most will sleep with the jerk over the doormat, but still well-balanced man, who is a good guy, is far superior to either of the two. He is the real prize and all women know this (which, because women constantly compare themselves to each other and know the difference, means that any woman with half a brain wants to secure him above all others), and the only kind I will be involved with sexually or emotionally. Edited January 7, 2010 by 16thstreet
16thstreet Posted January 7, 2010 Posted January 7, 2010 A jerk is a guy that sleeps with alot of women who he doesn't care about, nor has any intentions of pursuing a relationship with her. A jerk views women as sex and nothing more, and for some reason they do very well with women and it is a shame and blight on civilization. So in this sense a jerk is a male equivalent to a female slut. A slut views men as sex and nothing more, and for some reason they do very well with men and it s a shame and blight on civilization. Actually, in this sense, I think that the terms jerk and slut are both horribly old-fashioned. Certainly none of my friends view men or women who are up front about just having fun, who then proceed to have fun, as negative in any light. Ah the joys of GenMe. That, and the pending national debt crisis we will face.
stillafool Posted January 7, 2010 Posted January 7, 2010 No, he is not automatically labeled a jerk for being good looking. A jerk is a guy that sleeps with alot of women who he doesn't care about, nor has any intentions of pursuing a relationship with her. A jerk views women as sex and nothing more, and for some reason they do very well with women and it is a shame and blight on civilization. But, if these women know he sleeps with others and chose to still sleep with him in hopes of winning his heart, how is he a "jerk"? Why do these women want him? Is it his fault that he doesn't wish to settle down but the women still want him?
GoodOnPaper Posted January 7, 2010 Posted January 7, 2010 But, if these women know he sleeps with others and chose to still sleep with him in hopes of winning his heart, how is he a "jerk"? Why do these women want him? Is it his fault that he doesn't wish to settle down but the women still want him? It's not his fault at all -- being in demand seems to be an important trait in attracting women. Those of us that don't have it . . . well, we manage to survive floundering around at the bottom of the gene pool. What I feel foolish about is thinking that marriage and family would somehow make up for my lack of options when single -- not even close. The guy you describe is really the one who has it all -- and he probably knows it.
paddington bear Posted January 7, 2010 Posted January 7, 2010 Firstly I think the OP's post pretty much says it all. However, honestly the drama queen rants...I get pissed off (being a 'nice' girl, people-pleaser and doormat at times) with the massive amount of men who actively pursue the drama-queens. This thread is interesting to me because I think a lot of it applies to women, you give too much, you mother guys or whatever and it equals doormat as well, as someone said, it is just not sexy and you get tossed aside for the aforementioned drama-queens who make demands and make men feel needed, necessary, that if they fulfill this task then they have pleased their woman. If a woman is too easy-going they don't get that feeling of satisfaction of having made her happy. Meercat, I am going to say the old cliche that you hate, that you are probably going for a specific kind of woman...but it might be unconscious, how about that? I've gone through the 'why does this always happen to me with guys' thing, I've thought that I had dated different types of guys but actually I was always going for the unavailable, emotionally crippled ones who needed mothering, they then got sick of having a mother instead of a girlfriend, and I got sick of being an emotional crutch. Happened over and over. Now I'm trying to be really aware of my own patterns and become concious of what I'm doing, who I'm attracting and so on and am hoping things will change.
carhill Posted January 7, 2010 Posted January 7, 2010 you are probably going for a specific kind of woman...but it might be unconscious, how about that? I've gone through the 'why does this always happen to me with guys' thing, I've thought that I had dated different types of guys but actually I was always going for the unavailable, emotionally crippled ones who needed mothering, they then got sick of having a mother instead of a girlfriend, and I got sick of being an emotional crutch Buzactly. This is what I fixed in MC, my bitch-o-meter. I see them for what they are now, *incompatible*
Johnny M Posted January 7, 2010 Posted January 7, 2010 It's only been in the highly feminized second half of the 20th century that people were expected to go around spouting opinions about everything under the sun. Moreover, some (mostly male) people learn that if they aren't knowledgeable enough on a particular subject, that perhaps any opinion they express will be ignorant and thus not worthy of the energy spent forming the vowels. Silence used to be an enviable trait, not some evil. "Keep your ears open and mouth shut" used to mean something. "Actions speak louder than words" used to be a statement of virtue... until our culture became so radically feminized. Now if you are a man, you are damned if you don't show enough feminine traits and damned if you show too many, but all of them inevitably involve keeping your mouth open at all times in person, via text, on the phone. This is a great point. Back in the day, people who couldn't keep their mouth shut were looked down upon by society. There was a phrase to describe such people - opinionated and moronic. Being cool and collected - and in control of one's emotions - was a virtue. Nowadays, babbling idiots are considered 'interesting', 'outgoing', and 'emotionally available'. The concept of a reserved, unassuming, and self-sufficient man as an ideal of masculinity is a dead concept.
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