Wondering if it is over or if I am being unfair

[Toodamnpragmatic]

You know, as much as I like our MC I am starting to see from your post and others that maybe a different MC might be better because this is true and this is probably my biggest issues.

 

Every time I have brought up sex, she has responded by saying, if you fix everything else, the desire for sex will come back.

 

I hear this all the time, but then when I know things are really good, do things (i.e. sex) really improve?????

 

I've said it before. A spouse will come up with a 1,000 reasons why it is not happening..... You work on 999 of them, or something as simple as going on a stress free vacation, and guess what..... Something gets in the way.

 

I'd talk to the MC prior to the appointment and ask questions as top whether to continue with them.... I am beyond flabbergasted that even the 30 minutes a day was not something the MC challenged her on and wondered how she did not have that in her.....

[drpepper43]

Of course 50/50 is the best but face it making all the decisions gets tireing. It seems that not only is your wife the leader and executive at work she is also the leader at home. Please don't take this the wrong way but could it be that she does not respect you anymore?

 

Gosh, once I read your question and thought about I am getting numb.

 

One thing I did not really elaborate on is my wife's reaction to much of this. She sees me sad and see how much I am trying to change and take an active role. She has asked me to take 2 on line tests and see 2 different MDs until one of them finally said I had some symptoms of depression. Now, she wants me on medicine. And she writes me notes that say things like, "I am here for you, and I know some day you will be happy again." Nothing about changing or her role in this. Maybe I have lost her respect. I'm just a problem that needs medicine to solve.

 

If this is true, then I am very sad because I suppose that means I am the main reason this marriage failed.

 

A trial seperation would really tell her you mean business. Who knows? The dynamics may shift and then you may

come together again. Maybe by then you wont want to be with her.

 

Again, I hate to say

this but she just doesn't want to be with you anymore. I get the feeling

that she wants you to end it. Who is acting passive now? Take

the lead tell her you want a trial seperation. You will see by her reaction

how she really feels.

 

I am starting to think this is the best way. It hurts to read that she may not want me any more - it is funny she would not end it herself. I have asked her a few times, "Do you want me to leave?", and she always says, "No.". Lots of tears.

 

Then again, if this thing is on life support, maybe a separation is the only way to find out if she wants to save it.

 

It's a hard step to take I know.

 

It seems overwhelming.

 

TinyLee, you words sting but I really needed to hear them and I appreciate your honest thoughts. Thank you.

[giotto]

mrsT, thank you so much for responding to my post...

 

We are growing apart, absolutely. This has probably been one of the biggest issues. In MC, I tried to describe it, saying our two planets had slowly drifted away from each other, and both of us did our best to surround our respective planets with lots of different moons to fill our needs. And we needed the planets to come together again. She described our situation much differently, she just has this mentality that we should work harder to become one of each others moons. I can't help but think this is incorrect. I do not mean the elitest tones sometimes intended with this phrase, but I feel like I am able to look outside the box and see us as a broken whole, whereas she is still seeing things from her little planet.

 

Really bad analogy I know, sorry.

 

I could have almost written your paragraph about being passive, both what I realize it was and what I thought I was doing. Such a noble husband I was... sigh.

 

When I told her I was considering leaving and wanted MC, it was a stop the presses type deal. She heard me loud and clear. And she has been making efforts in her way. I think she is trying to answer the door; I think she has so many doors that she has long forgotten how to answer mine. Which is why I am sad.

 

I still have hope and we'll try it for a while longer and see what happens. Thanks again for writing.

 

I really feel for you, because you situation is very similar to mine... I was very passive too - doing lots at home and with the kids, but that somehow emasculated me. I suppose my wife wanted someone who took the lead and I never did, because I didn't want to upset anybody. We had many communication problems (my wife's, mainly) and I wouldn't hesitate to say that she is a very selfish person... the trouble is - after nearly 25 years together and 4 kids - there is no return. It's gone. We care about each other a lot, but love? I used to love her very much, but I'm too hurt now.

 

Anyway, I do agree with the "forceful" option... you have nothing to lose. Sometimes it's very sad to witness the demise of your own marriage. I never thought it would end up like this, but it did. And I have my big share of blame...

[giotto]

She has asked me to take 2 on line tests and see 2 different MDs until one of them finally said I had some symptoms of depression. Now, she wants me on medicine.

 

 

This takes the biscuit...

[drpepper43]

If I can ask, if a woman (or guy I suppose) loses respect for her mate, does it necessarily have to be a conscious decision?

 

I support I know some spouses will intentionally make their mates crazy until they can't take it any more.

 

But is it possible my wife might think she wants the marriage to continue, but on some level underneath, just be unable/unwilling to work on it? Like "my words say yes, but my body won't let me see it?"

 

Because if she wants me to leave, she has to be the best poker player on the planet because I really believe she wants us to make it through. Maybe I am just being naive.

[TinyLee222]

Originally Posted by drpepper43

She has asked me to take 2 on line tests and see 2 different MDs until one of them finally said I had some symptoms of depression. Now, she wants me on medicine.

 

 

 

 

This takes the biscuit...

 

 

Oh Boy, "She wants you on medicine"? Why dont you tell her that

she is the one depressing you. She is treating you like a child.

Get tough and get out. See what she says then.

 

Lee

[angie2443]

I'm sorry if this comes accross as harsh. I'm just going to say what I feel. This thread is starting to make me angry. It feels like there is way to much passivity here. I'm starting to feel like you, the OP, want everyone to make a decision for you. You need to take some responsibility and control for you life. You need to make the decision regarding your marriage. You have all the information you need.

 

I wanted to ask a question regarding your bieng passive. Do you think this is one of the main reasons you were attracted to your wife in the first place? Passive people often hook up with aggressive people, and that's no coincidence. The thing is, if you do hook up with a person because they make decisions easily and take the lead easily, you really can't resent them for that. By not bieng assertive, you are giving them the go ahead to take the lead. This is your part in this. I fully understand why you want to change this dynamic. I don't think it is a healthy dynamic for any relationship and I think the passive person either looses themselves in the relationship or starts separating themselves from the relationship.

 

Someone mentioned in another post that your wife may have lost respect for you. I kind of don't doubt it. People, in gereral don't like passive people. They often look down on them. Think of the expression "doormat" and think of how people use the word. It was that way with my husband after about a year into our marriage. The passive/aggresive dynamic became extreme and it reached a point where he was calling me "idiot" for not loading the dishwasher the way he wanted it loaded. It makes me feel pathetic, looking back on it. The only way I was able to turn things around was to take responsibility for my part in this. I could have wined about it all I wanted, but untill I changed myself, nothing was going to change. If you let people have their way all the time, their going to run with that. You can't resent them for that. You have to take responsibility and change yourself. Change the situation.

 

Sorry for bieng preachy. I really do wish you the best.

[angie2443]

If I can ask, if a woman (or guy I suppose) loses respect for her mate, does it necessarily have to be a conscious decision?

 

I support I know some spouses will intentionally make their mates crazy until they can't take it any more.

 

But is it possible my wife might think she wants the marriage to continue, but on some level underneath, just be unable/unwilling to work on it? Like "my words say yes, but my body won't let me see it?"

 

Because if she wants me to leave, she has to be the best poker player on the planet because I really believe she wants us to make it through. Maybe I am just being naive.

 

It is possible that she likes the marriage just the way it is. Sometimes one partner can be satisfied with things the way they are, while the other person is misserable. Maybe your wife is satisfied. The one thing that really makes me wonder, though, is her apparent lack of emotion regarding the OW. Any woman who was invested in her marriage and understood how most relationships form (most women do, I think) would be livid about your "friend". I don't understand why your wife apparently doesn't care.

[angie2443]

Regarding the medication angle- I've wondered if you may have ADD. I wondered that after reading a couple of your posts. I may be really off base here so please take what I say with a grain of salt. I have mild ADD. I'm not hyperactive and I usually avoid meds. I have my reasons. Still, when I've been on them, I became more assertive. It really did change my passiveness. I'm certainly not saying to run to a doctor or that your wife is right. It is something to think of, though. Some symptoms of ADD are the same as depression. Just to let you know. Your wife may be using this (the depression angle) as a way to throw you off, or she may have a valid point. Only you can decide.

[HeyThere]

... I'm starting to feel like you, the OP, want everyone to make a decision for you. You need to take some responsibility and control for you life. You need to make the decision regarding your marriage. You have all the information you need. ...

 

 

 

I agree – you know what to do. You know what the problems are. You know your W isn’t w/ you in the marriage. Now what

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”

-- Eleanor Roosevelt

[drpepper43]

I'm starting to feel like you, the OP, want everyone to make a decision for you. You need to take some responsibility and control for you life. You need to make the decision regarding your marriage. You have all the information you need.

 

Actually I am surprised you think that way since in my original post in October I have been thinking separation was the answer and I have been consistently agreeing that separation is a good idea when it's presented.

 

I do not mean disrespect but if my posts upset you or anger you, as much as I value your thoughts and appreciate them, perhaps my thread is not for you. My intention is not to make you angry, obviously.

 

Maybe I have not explained well or used bad terms. I am NOT a doormat. In fact, I am a high level referee in my state with a reputation of being a complete hard-a** and not putting up with any BS. I get games that most referees can't handle because they are push-overs. I can be assertive when I need to be.

 

My relationship with my wife has become passive/assertive, and it must have been very gradual. I am not sure when it happened. If I were to guess, it is when the kids came along, and mom got attached and I was second fiddle and it did not seem right to attempt to assert myself over a 1 month old boy.

 

Edited to add: Or, I'm just passive in this relationship in general... not trying to nitpick details.

 

It is there now. That is my fault. I accept this. It may be what kills the marriage. But I am trying to change it now. Getting a separation is probably the first step.

 

I made a vow to my wife and I'm thinking it through as best I can, and your post and others help me think.

 

But please do not mistake my responsiveness or thoroughness thinking this through as indecision. It's the biggest decision I've made in many years. It would be a mistake to flatter yourself and think that an anonymous Internet poster is going to make a decision about my marriage for me. (no offense)

 

Thank you as always for your post.

Edited December 31, 2009 by drpepper43

[HeyThere]

By the way - your screen name says something – go get some humor guy – “unbelievably satisfying.”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”

-- Eleanor Roosevelt

[carhill]

OP, sorry to read about your issues...

 

A couple questions:

 

Do you have a good support network? Family, friends, co-workers, etc.? Is there anyone IRL whom you've shared this story with, like a best male friend? Do you feel supported in the world outside of your M?

 

Have you sought legal advice regarding separation and divorce in your jurisdiction? If no, I'd suggest that. Also, if you think separation and/or divorce is your healthiest option, I'd suggest being proactive about it. File the documents; have her served. This will be a clear indication that you are proactive and assertive in matters of importance. My read is that you've been making most of the moves wrt saving the M, so it's time to really see how much she wants in or out. IMO, supported by sentiment generally offered on LS and by our psychologist, people separate to get divorced; it is a prelude and a path. Think about that. Think of how separate your lives are now and you're living in the same house. Separate that further with physical distance and you'll have no need nor desire for any contact other than children-related.

 

My sympathies. Hug the kids

[HeyThere]

Why some women want to emasculate the men in their lives makes for an interesting topic. This gives them the feeling of power, control, manipulation…Being able to see through the BS puts you (generic you) on a level playing field. Even after you confront them, they still don’t get it, I think because that loss of power is gone and they want to pretend it is not.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”

-- Eleanor Roosevelt

[drpepper43]

OP, sorry to read about your issues...

 

A couple questions:

 

Do you have a good support network? Family, friends, co-workers, etc.? Is there anyone IRL whom you've shared this story with, like a best male friend? Do you feel supported in the world outside of your M?

 

Have you sought legal advice regarding separation and divorce in your jurisdiction? If no, I'd suggest that. Also, if you think separation and/or divorce is your healthiest option, I'd suggest being proactive about it. File the documents; have her served. This will be a clear indication that you are proactive and assertive in matters of importance. My read is that you've been making most of the moves wrt saving the M, so it's time to really see how much she wants in or out. IMO, supported by sentiment generally offered on LS and by our psychologist, people separate to get divorced; it is a prelude and a path. Think about that. Think of how separate your lives are now and you're living in the same house. Separate that further with physical distance and you'll have no need nor desire for any contact other than children-related.

 

My sympathies. Hug the kids

 

Thank you Carhill. I have shared the story with a few friends, my sister, and some other family. My biggest support of late has been the woman friend I mentioned, though lately that is sort of a conflict-of-interest so everyone's thoughts are so valuable and I thank you.

 

I have begun taking measures which are known as "the list" on another site - getting contact info, important documents in order, etc. This seems like a good exercise regardless. I have found an extended stay hotel that seems reasonably priced. I think next week I will seek some legal advice as well regarding separation as you suggest.

 

I feel like I'm pulling numbers out of the air, but I was thinking of a 60 day separation to start. Keep our options open. If she really is gone, she'll enjoy the 60 days and we'll part ways... if she isn't, there can't be any bigger wake-up call than that. That's the game plan anyway.

[carhill]

Thanks for your response and I would suggest consulting with three attorneys prior to moving out. One, this allows you to solicit, generally for free, multiple opinions on scenarios you may envision to recover or end the M and, two, it reduces the number of attorneys your W can hire by three.

 

Leaving the marital home, especially where there are children residing, is a big legal step, so weigh it carefully. I hope other options present themselves. Best wishes

[HeyThere]

What a 180° turn from two days ago.

 

I wish you much success and happiness.

 

Keep us informed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.”

-- Eleanor Roosevelt

Edited December 31, 2009 by HeyThere

[Susmay]

Ok Dr P. Is the real issue here that you are in a sexless marriage? (I think the definition is something like 10 times or less a year...give or take)

 

If you were having hot sex with your wife once or twice a week combined with intimate talk during that time; the sort of thing where you tell each other how you feel about each other especially physically, passionately. romantically and intimately; would your life suddenly be bearable, fulfilling even?

 

If so I can really relate to this.

 

My marriage has been essentially like this. My H is somewhat passive compared to me, whereas I am assertive. I generally make the major decisions about our domestic and family arrangements. We are both well educated and are "executives" at our workplaces - we have 2 sons as well.

 

Well we drifted part over the years while nevertheless appearing to be a highly functional family. We still cared for each other but basically we were in a sexless marriage (not completely sexless but not often). From my perspective it all appeared to be just too difficult to do when I had everything else on my plate. It wasn't that I didn't enjoy it when it did happen or was incapable or anything like that - it just seemed to me to be yet another chore in a long list of endless chores. [i'm trying to be honest here].

 

Over a year ago I found out that my H also had met another woman she made him feel good about himself and unappreciated by me. Well the inevitable happened and they had an affair.

 

When I first found out about it initially it was presented that my H had not yet been unfaithful but was seriously thinking about it. (this wasn't true as it turned out). I was just devastated and horrified and took active steps to rectify what was essentially the only main thing lacking in our lives (sex, affection, intimacy call it what you will). This had an immediate effect on my marriage. Basically we rediscovered what it was about each other that brought us together in the first place. For me the realisation that my H was so lonely and unhappy that he was contemplating an affair made me realise just what it was I was going to lose because of my cavalier attitude to sex in our marriage.

 

The bigger story is that my H had already had the affair so in fact once I found this out we had much bigger problems to overcome.

 

The thing is he had never directly told me that he was so seriously tempted to take it to an affair and I know for sure that had I known this I would have been totally willing to give it my all, to try to prevent it, including a much more active sex life. I know this because this is what actually happened while I beleived that he had not yet been unfaithful. In other words in didn't "require" that he actually have the affair - the serious threat of it was enough.

 

We are rebuilding our marriage and part of that is that we make time for each other and also explicitly to have a sex life. Over a year later we are still reaping the rewards of this and if others knew about it I'm sure they would envy us. It is of course a bittersweet thing for me because of the affair though.

 

If your problem is somewhat similar to this then my advice to you is to tell your wife either in MC or while alone with her - that you are so lonely and miserable that you are vulnerable to having an affair and that you have it so bad, that it will happen when the opportunity arises. If she still doesn't care then you have nothing to salvage.

[giotto]

If your problem is somewhat similar to this then my advice to you is to tell your wife either in MC or while alone with her - that you are so lonely and miserable that you are vulnerable to having an affair and that you have it so bad, that it will happen when the opportunity arises. If she still doesn't care then you have nothing to salvage.

 

He told her about the OW and she still doesn't seem to care...

[Susmay]

He told her about the OW and she still doesn't seem to care...

 

I saw somewhere that he told his wife that he was friendly with a woman. I didn't see that he told his wife that he was vulnerable to having an affair with the friend, and if not with her, then with someone else. I may have missed this of course.

 

I know that I reacted only when I became aware that an affair was imminent rather than that my husband was friends with another women. There is a difference between platonic friendship and an affair or so I believed in my naiveté at the time.

 

As it turned out the affair had already happened but I didn't find that out until later. In Dr P's case if his wife is truly indifferent to whether or not he is faithful then that is a different kettle of fish.

[giotto]

I saw somewhere that he told his wife that he was friendly with a woman. I didn't see that he told his wife that he was vulnerable to having an affair with the friend, and if not with her, then with someone else. I may have missed this of course.

 

I know that I reacted only when I became aware that an affair was imminent rather than that my husband was friends with another women. There is a difference between platonic friendship and an affair or so I believed in my naiveté at the time.

 

As it turned out the affair had already happened but I didn't find that out until later. In Dr P's case if his wife is truly indifferent to whether or not he is faithful then that is a different kettle of fish.

 

My wife knows about this gal, I have told her that I have confided in her quite a bit about our problems and that I feel like we have become abnormally close. She has a good idea of how much time I spend at my activities so she is not a secret... I mean obviously I do not go out of my way to bring her up over and over, but she is aware.

 

I think she is well aware that this woman is a threat... she either doesn't believe he will ever do anything or she just doesn't care... or she is a fool...

[Susmay]

I think she is well aware that this woman is a threat... she either doesn't believe he will ever do anything or she just doesn't care... or she is a fool...

 

Ok I understand.

 

As I said: "In Dr P's case if his wife is truly indifferent to whether or not he is faithful then that is a different kettle of fish".

[giotto]

Ok I understand.

 

As I said: "In Dr P's case if his wife is truly indifferent to whether or not he is faithful then that is a different kettle of fish".

 

yes, and it's a huge red flag...

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I am sorry it ended in an affair, but do hope you two do get past it.

 

Interesting how many women can consider something like sex as a "chore", but then rediscover how wonderful it is. I'll bet you that you are not banging off all 4 walls, going at it constantly either.... Probably have just rediscovered a "normal" sex life and conversation that comes from it..... Not a bad thing....

 

 

Why then is it so friggin difficult for so many?????

 

I should ask, did you know there was an issue with sex and your H? Was he telling you and you just did not consider it a big deal???? Sounds too familiar if so....

 

As for Dr. P... I don't think the realization of a nemesis (other woman) has hit her. Look my wife does activities and there are men. I know it and am not worried, because she gives me no reason to be worried. Dr. P hasn't made his wife understand that She should be worried!!!!!

Edited January 1, 2010 by Toodamnpragmatic

[Susmay]

I am sorry it ended in an affair, but do hope you two do get past it.

 

Thank you and "it" (our marriage) has not yet ended although the affair has.

 

Interesting how many women can consider something like sex as a "chore", but then rediscover how wonderful it is. I'll bet you that you are not banging off all 4 walls, going at it constantly either.... Probably have just rediscovered a "normal" sex life and conversation that comes from it..... Not a bad thing....

 

I can't really explain it either. I suspect it is greater than normal right now but time will tell.

 

 

Why then is it so friggin difficult for so many?????

 

I don't know the answer for this for sure either. Maybe many women feel that everyone else in the family just take, take, take and there's nothing much left of them.

 

I should ask, did you know there was an issue with sex and your H? Was he telling you and you just did not consider it a big deal???? Sounds too familiar if so....

 

Yes unfortunately far too familiar... He never ever explicitly spelled it out that something was going to give. I understand how hard it is to say to your partner "put out or else..." it sounds so callous and uncaring. In my previous relationship we broke up for the same reason except it was my partner (we were never married or had kids or anything) who did not want sex with me. We went the last 2 years without it. I decided I could not continue that way forever and so left him. We were together for nearly 8 years and I never stopped wanting a sex life with him. Sadly for me it was the birth of 2 children close together that precipitated my own drought...

 

As for Dr. P... I don't think the realization of a nemesis (other woman) has hit her. Look my wife does activities and there are men. I know it and am not worried, because she gives me no reason to be worried. Dr. P hasn't made his wife understand that She should be worried!!!!!

 

That is why I posted. Because if this is the issue then it is up to him to confront it explicitly with his wife as skirting round it will get nowhere.