NoIDidn't Posted December 22, 2009 Posted December 22, 2009 This thread is interesting...in just about every OW thread, you see the phrase "You can't help who you fall in love with" as justification. In this thread, the justification is "It's only sex"...Hmmmmm, very thought provoking. Yeah, I noticed that too. Next, someone will start a thread saying "its not ONLY about the sex". Very telling, isn't it? Does this sum it up about affairs? Love AND sex? Or, just sex, no love? Or just lots of justification?
fooled once Posted December 22, 2009 Posted December 22, 2009 Many different types of OW, affairs, and infidelities. Agreed. When I was OW , like you, I had no ulterior motives, no expectations. I also thought , like many others...if it werent me, it would be someone else, this is harmless, its just sex/attention, almost a service to his marriage , I have no guilt. Since then, I have learned a few things. Karma is indeed a bit*h. And if that is not direct enough, let me put it another way. An OW/OM is an unknown and undetected cancer in someone else's life. A strangers life. You are the cancer and the BS is the stranger. Sure, the MM/MW is the one who has the marriage, made the promises, and comes up with justifications. It certainly IS the WS that is the betrayer here. But the WS is the enemy the BS knows...they have a relationship such as it may or may not be. The OW/OM feels all is a part from them, that all is harmless, not their fault...but you are silently and unknowingly a cancer in a stranger's life. No matter what moral codes you live by, that cannot be a good thing. Mostly for you. What an excellent post!! I do have to say though that you are the enemy to the betrayed spouse because she certainly isn't your friend. You are screwing her husband behind her back. And you are bringing it into her life in the form of an STD or unwanted pregnancy for you. Why do you think your affair is okay and not harmful to the spouse???
Stung Posted December 22, 2009 Posted December 22, 2009 OP, I think your definition of "once in a blue moon" is a little off.
Stung Posted December 22, 2009 Posted December 22, 2009 the MM and the OW have to be 'clear' from the start that this is only for sex.. no commitment, etc.. some people CAN'T do that.. it's not always easy.. it takes emotional maturity IMO to be able to separate sex and 'love'... No.. we are not the enemy when we don't want your H... we're helping your M.. and sometimes a 'white lie' does wonder.. If either my husband or I decide we want sex outside of the marriage, we should have the emotional maturity to talk TO EACH OTHER about it, figure out if we should/how we should set up parameters for opening up our marriage sexually. If we don't think that's a viable solution, we can try MC, and if there's still real dissatisfaction, well, we'll divorce and feel sad for a while and then get our jollies with whomever we damn well please. If he or I were to selfishly sneak behind the other's back to get our rocks off because we're too cowardly to have that conversation, I personally wouldn't deem that emotional maturity, nor consider it in any way a 'help' to my marriage to find out that my partner had been lying to me and f*cking around, whether he 'loved' the other woman/women or not. Cheating is not always sex therapy, although I know Lizzie would like to think it is.
bentnotbroken Posted December 22, 2009 Posted December 22, 2009 If either my husband or I decide we want sex outside of the marriage, we should have the emotional maturity to talk TO EACH OTHER about it, figure out if we should/how we should set up parameters for opening up our marriage sexually. If we don't think that's a viable solution, we can try MC, and if there's still real dissatisfaction, well, we'll divorce and feel sad for a while and then get our jollies with whomever we damn well please. If he or I were to selfishly sneak behind the other's back to get our rocks off because we're too cowardly to have that conversation, I personally wouldn't deem that emotional maturity, nor consider it in any way a 'help' to my marriage to find out that my partner had been lying to me and f*cking around, whether he 'loved' the other woman/women or not. Cheating is not always sex therapy, although I know Lizzie would like to think it is. Bravo. Thank you.
Lizzie60 Posted December 22, 2009 Posted December 22, 2009 If either my husband or I decide we want sex outside of the marriage, we should have the emotional maturity to talk TO EACH OTHER about it, figure out if we should/how we should set up parameters for opening up our marriage sexually. If we don't think that's a viable solution, we can try MC, and if there's still real dissatisfaction, well, we'll divorce and feel sad for a while and then get our jollies with whomever we damn well please. If he or I were to selfishly sneak behind the other's back to get our rocks off because we're too cowardly to have that conversation, I personally wouldn't deem that emotional maturity, nor consider it in any way a 'help' to my marriage to find out that my partner had been lying to me and f*cking around, whether he 'loved' the other woman/women or not. Cheating is not always sex therapy, although I know Lizzie would like to think it is. That is usually what a BS who withheld sex for X number of reasons or who simply has no more libido ... would say. We hear that all the time.. but 'reality' is a whole different ball game.. Do you think a W who agree to sex once or twice a month is emotionally mature.. I don't think so.. It's not always that easy.. as you portray it.. ask all those married guys on LS who are sexually starved..
fooled once Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Lizzie, how come you seem to always say the wife has withheld sex? How do you know this? Are you there when sex is discussed in their home? Why do you constantly blame the wife for withholding sex or not giving it up frequently enough for the man? Is this because the cheater has told you this? Maybe the wife doesn't like sex with him because he sucks at it? Maybe he isn't adventureous enough for her? Maybe his idea of foreplay is him squeezing her boobs and saying "let's go"? Maybe they have deeper marital issues and as many women know, sex is more emotional for us. We can't just turn it on because a guy gets horny? I just don't understand why it is seems to always be the wife's fault the husband cheats?
hotmarriedchick Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 I also think that when an A is based strictly on sex.. it's a lot less 'dangerous' for the M... it can, IMO, make the M even better... Like I said before.. the H is happier, cause he gets his needs met outside.. he doesn't have to beg (which is probably humiliating).. no more 'fights' (arguments) about sex.. The W thinks he's finally over his 'sex addection' (twice a month )... she's happy... the kids are happy.. everyone profits from the A... That might seem possible for some people I suppose....But quite honestly, I think people that live in a manner that is so *incongruent* with what they truly want in their day to day marriage are kidding themselves. It's honestly the worst form of self-betrayal (IMHO). Until a person gets enough stamina to really voice their needs (not wants, but needs) in their partnership, there is a lot of unnecessary suffering. Wants and needs are different for everyone. It takes a lot of serious self examination to know the difference--for yourself and your spouse. Been there...still am! My husband and I met in college. I'm 38 now and he's just hit 40. That's 15 years of marriage and 18 or so years of togetherness. Let me tell ya that we've had to renegotiate the marriage as we've evolved on our way. NOT easy--but definitely worth it. In all ways--including the sex part. To simply say that it's emotional immaturity that stands in the way of a healthy sexual relationship would be a limited viewpoint. (Again my opinion). I believe our partners in life are meant to mirror our dis-owned parts of ourselves in the context of loving us enough to help us re-integrate and lovingly reclaim ourselves. THAT can be a tough road if you've had difficulties or violations around a healthy sexual self expression. Not to get too heavy! Just think there's a lot to work and much to be gained through in a progressive, authentic marriage/partnership. Cheers! HMC
Lizzie60 Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Lizzie, how come you seem to always say the wife has withheld sex? How do you know this? Are you there when sex is discussed in their home? Why do you constantly blame the wife for withholding sex or not giving it up frequently enough for the man? Is this because the cheater has told you this? Maybe the wife doesn't like sex with him because he sucks at it? Maybe he isn't adventureous enough for her? Maybe his idea of foreplay is him squeezing her boobs and saying "let's go"? Maybe they have deeper marital issues and as many women know, sex is more emotional for us. We can't just turn it on because a guy gets horny? I just don't understand why it is seems to always be the wife's fault the husband cheats? It's not always the W's fault.. but most men cheat because they want sex... they don't get enough at home... I didn't invent that.. just look it up on the Internet... checked with most male LSers.. my female friends... my MMs (most, not all)... even I've been there with my first ex.. If the W doesn't like it because he sucks at it.. why then is he good with me?
bentnotbroken Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 It's not always the W's fault.. but most men cheat because they want sex... they don't get enough at home... I didn't invent that.. just look it up on the Internet... checked with most male LSers.. my female friends... my MMs (most, not all)... even I've been there with my first ex.. If the W doesn't like it because he sucks at it.. why then is he good with me? Lizzie, even if what you say is true, it isn't a representative sample of the world or even a podunk county in rural where ever. Unless you have interviewed people other than who you know and sleep with you have a very small pool of people in which to reference. And the internet is full of as many untruths as good info.
Lizzie60 Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Lizzie, even if what you say is true, it isn't a representative sample of the world or even a podunk county in rural where ever. Unless you have interviewed people other than who you know and sleep with you have a very small pool of people in which to reference. And the internet is full of as many untruths as good info. Then how exactly do YOU know that it,s not the case???
bentnotbroken Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Then how exactly do YOU know that it,s not the case??? Lizzie one of the requirements of what I do requires a lot of research on a lot of topics where families are concerned. Your thoughts are valid with certain variables and certain demographics. You talk to people near you. I take into account people I don't know. And even with more than a few studies out there, the numbers aren't what you believe. Some of the variables are age, income, religion, race, culture, education and mental stability. Men are not the leading cheaters in all these categories. All I am saying is our opinions are shaped by our experiences, your experience (line of work) leads to a certain opinion that not can not be backed up across the board.
Stung Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 That is usually what a BS who withheld sex for X number of reasons or who simply has no more libido ... would say. We hear that all the time.. but 'reality' is a whole different ball game.. Do you think a W who agree to sex once or twice a month is emotionally mature.. I don't think so.. It's not always that easy.. as you portray it.. ask all those married guys on LS who are sexually starved.. Perhaps that is what such a person would say...and I'll not argue that a marriage starved for sex is not troubled, because I believe that it's VERY troubled. Which is why I would suggest that a couple in a sex-starved marriage seek MC, because one or both of them is suffering in some way. But it's also what I said, and I am not now nor have I ever been a BS, I very definitely have a libido and I can assure you my husband isn't hard-up for sex. We're boinking like bunnies almost whenever we can get the kids to sleep and we're both pretty happy about it. We also respect each other and I hope that will continue so we can talk about it when/if our sex life ever does founder or our marriage become vulnerable, rather than just keep our dissatisfaction to ourselves and run around with some piece on the side.
D-Lish Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 No matter how you spin it- if you are sleeping with someone's husband, you ARE an enemy to the wife. What you want from him is irrelevant. The fact is that being cheated on will cause pain to the BS. You're just the lesser of two evils if your motive isn't for him to leave his wife, but make no mistake- you're an enemy to her if he's putting his penis in your vagina. Yeah- I said vagina. It's an odd word:lmao:
awkward Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Let us know how you feel about MM in three months from now. If you do fall in love and want more, will you be the enemy then?
Author atlnay Posted December 23, 2009 Author Posted December 23, 2009 Ok quick reply to the first 15 or so replies, I didn't say I was a friend of the M, I said i may NOT be one, BUT... Having said that, someone pointed I may not be doing that directly, but indirectly I'm an enemy. Fair enough. And to NoIDidn'ts' concern about me spinning out of control. I'm really not. Last week was the tail end of a long emotional spiral down, because I couldn't truly figure out my situation and resolve it with my feelings. I had a moment where it all snapped. Something clicked in my head and I got it. I had to make a true choice then, and I chose to keep him around just for the PA. It's been almost a week, not only have I stopped obsessing about him and feeling horrible on weekends, I felt a sense of relief. I really don't want anything more from him. Let us know how you feel about MM in three months from now. If you do fall in love and want more, will you be the enemy then? That part already happened. I like him. I care about him. I even love him, just like I still love each of my exes to this day. But I don't want more in any shape or form. He really isn't an option, no need letting my heart go down that route. Now that I've released the "in love" feelings, I can just let it all go.
skylarblue Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 I agree a W is in a much better position with an OW that doesn’t want a R with her H, and have always maintained that I’m not the type of mistress that the BW should worry about. When I hear things like how the OW is a homewrecker who doesn’t care about breaking up a family, I kinda have to roll my eyes and say whatever. I’m not at all a homewrecker (that’s the H) nor would I break up a family (that’s the R wanting OW). I may be an enemy from the W’s POV, but I’m not a threat to the M and would never want MM to get a D or the W and family to unnecessarily experience the hurt or drama of a dday. I don’t think knowing I don’t want a R would make the BW’s pain any less, but I think it should (and probably does) provide a little comfort or relief.
FilthMerchant Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 skylarblue - a triangular relationship is dysfunctional, in the case you describe, and children who grow up in dysfunctional relationships grow up damaged and continue the cycle of dysfunctional relationships. Either way you are stirring resentment and toxicity, not an environment for children to be raised in I am guessing you will just try and find another way to rationalise it
moaningmyrtle Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 I agree a W is in a much better position with an OW that doesn’t want a R with her H, and have always maintained that I’m not the type of mistress that the BW should worry about. When I hear things like how the OW is a homewrecker who doesn’t care about breaking up a family, I kinda have to roll my eyes and say whatever. I’m not at all a homewrecker (that’s the H) nor would I break up a family (that’s the R wanting OW). I may be an enemy from the W’s POV, but I’m not a threat to the M and would never want MM to get a D or the W and family to unnecessarily experience the hurt or drama of a dday. I don’t think knowing I don’t want a R would make the BW’s pain any less, but I think it should (and probably does) provide a little comfort or relief. I think it's irrelevant whether or not the OW wants a more marriage-like relationship with the MM or even if she doesn't want the MM to leave his wife. The fact is that revelations of an A causes immense distress to a BW and may well cause her to decide to break up the M because of the betrayal. I know that day after day, from d-day, I wished for a passive death to just befall me. Whether or not an OW has ill-feelings for the BW is also irrelevant. Simply put; OW are the enemies of the wives of the MM and their marriages.
JamesM Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 That is usually what a BS who withheld sex for X number of reasons or who simply has no more libido ... would say. We hear that all the time.. but 'reality' is a whole different ball game.. Do you think a W who agree to sex once or twice a month is emotionally mature.. I don't think so.. It's not always that easy.. as you portray it.. ask all those married guys on LS who are sexually starved.. I agree...as one of those sexually starved men. And if she agreed to twice a month, we would at least have a start. It is not always the women that withhold sex, but usually it is. If it were as easy as saying "I don't like sex, so it is okay if you get it elsewhere" then we would have no issue. Then I would decide if I want a marriage like that. Maybe the wife doesn't like sex with him because he sucks at it? Maybe he isn't adventureous enough for her? Maybe his idea of foreplay is him squeezing her boobs and saying "let's go"? Maybe they have deeper marital issues and as many women know, sex is more emotional for us. We can't just turn it on because a guy gets horny? Some comments to this.... 1. If the husband sucks at sex, then he needs to be told. Some are told, but many are never told. And fact is...it is usually not about his skills. Besides, how does a guy get better if he never practices? Perhaps the wife could get him lessons with a professional like Lizzie? 2. If there are deeper marital issues, then if she wants her marriage to survive let alone thrive, then she needs to not shut down sexually and not reveal what the problems are. And the worst thing to say is..."It is me not you." 3. Granted women cannot get turned on like men. Granted women are different. But when the marriage falls apart, then the woman does need to realize that withholding sex was not the way to get her needs fulfilled either. It is not always women who withhold sex. It is not always women who are the reason why men cheat. Many men cheat simply because they like variety and and the thrill of the secret life. So, when a man is straightforward and desires sex with his wife...why oh why would she turn him down...especially when she knows this could send him elsewhere?
Lizzie60 Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Lizzie one of the requirements of what I do requires a lot of research on a lot of topics where families are concerned. Your thoughts are valid with certain variables and certain demographics. You talk to people near you. I take into account people I don't know. And even with more than a few studies out there, the numbers aren't what you believe. Some of the variables are age, income, religion, race, culture, education and mental stability. Men are not the leading cheaters in all these categories. All I am saying is our opinions are shaped by our experiences, your experience (line of work) leads to a certain opinion that not can not be backed up across the board. Well I happen to read quite a bit on that subject too... I also take into account people I don't know.. just like you. And I disagree.. my opinions are not shaped only by my experience.. as you think... but based on reading articles, Internet, etc.. etc.. and it can also be verified on this board.. sorry.. I stand by my posts..
NoIDidn't Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 I agree a W is in a much better position with an OW that doesn’t want a R with her H, and have always maintained that I’m not the type of mistress that the BW should worry about. When I hear things like how the OW is a homewrecker who doesn’t care about breaking up a family, I kinda have to roll my eyes and say whatever. I’m not at all a homewrecker (that’s the H) nor would I break up a family (that’s the R wanting OW). I may be an enemy from the W’s POV, but I’m not a threat to the M and would never want MM to get a D or the W and family to unnecessarily experience the hurt or drama of a dday. I don’t think knowing I don’t want a R would make the BW’s pain any less, but I think it should (and probably does) provide a little comfort or relief. It is my opinion that the OP (OM/OW) is ALWAYS an enemy to the marriage by simply being willing to triangulate it. It doesn't matter if the OP desires a fulltime R with the MP or not, the very existence of an A creates or MAGNIFIES the problems in the marriage. I very much agree with FilthMerchant about the kids that grow up in such situations. They don't quite understand certain things about their parents' R but they feel it and its unsettling. When they get older, they tend to see things more clearly, but the damage is already done. In this sense, the A is also an enemy of the family and the children's well-being. No one likes to hear this stuff, because all they hear is "its all my fault". But I am NOT saying that AT ALL. When a marriage is triangulated, it also has an internal enemy: the cheating spouse. Whether the OP wants the CS full time or not, their willingness to secretly step out of their marriage and seek any need they should be getting met in their marriage means that the marriage's real and truest enemy is them.
NoIDidn't Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Well I happen to read quite a bit on that subject too... I also take into account people I don't know.. just like you. And I disagree.. my opinions are not shaped only by my experience.. as you think... but based on reading articles, Internet, etc.. etc.. and it can also be verified on this board.. sorry.. I stand by my posts.. I get what you are saying here, but there is a WORLD of difference between doing true scholarly research and reading articles of interest on the 'net. We tend to read things that interest us or re-enforce the views we already have, not things that may disprove our personal theories. Of course, being that I come from a group of researchers myself, I am a little biased against your view on this matter. There are just too many variables to consider - unless of course, the main variable one uses is that the people being considered were born after 1982. In this case (sorry young folks), the variables like race, gender, and religion tend not to matter that much, if at all. But this is my totally BIASED opinion. LOL.
bentnotbroken Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 Well I happen to read quite a bit on that subject too... I also take into account people I don't know.. just like you. And I disagree.. my opinions are not shaped only by my experience.. as you think... but based on reading articles, Internet, etc.. etc.. and it can also be verified on this board.. sorry.. I stand by my posts.. I would expect nothing less. It is one of the 2 things I respect about you, standing by what you believe in no matter what others say (much like myself:love:).
Stung Posted December 23, 2009 Posted December 23, 2009 I agree a W is in a much better position with an OW that doesn’t want a R with her H, and have always maintained that I’m not the type of mistress that the BW should worry about. When I hear things like how the OW is a homewrecker who doesn’t care about breaking up a family, I kinda have to roll my eyes and say whatever. I’m not at all a homewrecker (that’s the H) nor would I break up a family (that’s the R wanting OW). I may be an enemy from the W’s POV, but I’m not a threat to the M and would never want MM to get a D or the W and family to unnecessarily experience the hurt or drama of a dday. I don’t think knowing I don’t want a R would make the BW’s pain any less, but I think it should (and probably does) provide a little comfort or relief. Out of curiousity, Skylar, I have to ask: I am almost sure I recall a thread recently where you admitted you have been having completely unprotected sex with your MM in an effort to feel better than his wife, with the full knowledge that you might (probably will) end up pregnant, and vaguely thinking you'll have an abortion when/if that comes to pass. Was this not you? How do you reconcile this with the above statement? Call me crazy but I think almost any wife would consider an OW who is not only having sex with her husband but having unprotected sex, trying to be better than the wife, and ready to get impregnated by her husband and create a WORLD of drama to be a very, very serious enemy of the marriage. To get back to the OP: I believe that this A has already hurt you and you are trying to make the best of it and cling to your MM however you can. I'm sorry but it seems like you're deluding yourself a little bit that you can maintain a purely physical A with a man you were in love with so recently, and be happy about it. I hope you can recognize that you're just going to hurt yourself, and let go.
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