Leaving me made all her dreams come true.

[LisaUk]

Ouch, Lisa!! enough with the projections, already. Hi Simon, first let me say I have been reading your posts over the last couple of days and I have to ask do you belong to some kind of a cult?

 

Secondly, I find some of what is written in your posts very insightful and some of it unfortunately way off beam. You seem to be providing a lot of hope for people who have been left, that their spouses may be open to reconciliation?

 

This is a very dangerous thing to suggest to people in "our" position. Unfortunately in life NO ONE can make or encourage anyone to do something they do not want to do and that includes reconciling when they don't want to. No matter how much "we" want to keep hope alive or beleieve that the other persons actions are out of fear etc, the sad truth is that these people choose to walk away and until (if ever) they figure it out for themseleves they ain't coming back!

 

Your posts perputuate hope, when really "we" need, have to move on. We cannot influence the leaver, it doesn't work that way, if you truely knew of a way to resolve problems with someone who doesn't want to, isn't open to it, then "we" wouldn't be here and you would be a millionaire.

 

As for the projections, your way off, what I wrote is not about me and my ex it was purely a reflection on private conversations Tojaz and I have been having for over 7 months.

 

The reason dating is so hard is because almost everyone you meet is full of fear, fear of being hurt, fear of being rejected or abandoned.

 

It's the same reason most relationships deteriorate in to conflict.

 

Often if we fear something, we feel that everyone else should fear the same thing (it's our phylogenetic nature doing that)

 

The reason getting back together is so hard is that the experience of hurt and rejection is often an open wound. We fear exposing ourselves to further hurt and pain. Also, often the dumper has difficulty admitting that fear, whether rational or irrational, whether conscious or unconscious, played a part in the initial dumping.

 

The reason that getting back in to dating is so hard for the dumpee is that they still carry their open wound, they still feel they need to protect what is vulnerable.

 

That vulnerability is an illusion, it is left over from our primitive heritage. the hurt we experience, we create ourselves, it is the pain of the illusion being slapped by reality.

 

We can either be a slave to our fears, or we can rise above them and say "nothing can hurt me emotionally unless I choose it, unless I let it hurt me"

 

then go out without fear and get what you want.

 

Because fear feeds off fear, one persons fear knows how to stimulate another person's fear, and this is why we are so good at knowing how to hurt one another in relationships. It isn't us, it's a primitive instinct left over from our ancestory, an instinct that still influences us, but only when we are unconscious of it.

 

Tojaz; make your own mind up, but before you do, make sure that your mind is not being influenced by fear.

 

 

Believe me Simon, shes not. If anyone here knows my story in its entirety its Lisa.

 

 

I've tried to be open to all possibillites but thats whats kept me tied up in knots all this time.This is exactlt my point Simon, you are encouraging hope when really everyone here who is coming through this, getting into the light or is already through, would advocate looking after number one, moving forward with your life, if they come back great, if not you will be indifferent to it. Or do you think we should all sit around, tie ourseleves up in knots and think suicidal thoughts, like I have been? Seriously, if you really have the secret answer we are all looking for, let us in on it. My mind kind of works like that, and I want to see things from all angles. So I remain open to that and have had many suggestions to move in that direction.Tojaz, you remain open to it b/c you love her and want her back, nothing to with fear everything to do with hope. That hope gives rise to fear, you want to hold onto the hope so you are too fearful to find out for sure. Limbo. I guess that has a lot to do with the fear you mentioned in your other post. Thats very true. There is a lot of fear on both sides. Fear that I may be missing an opportunity, but stronger fear that I will end up right back where i was months ago.

TOJAZ

Tojaz, I know you are fearful that you will end up right where you were months ago, but you are in pergitory right now!

[tojaz]

Tojaz,

 

You did not hold her back. She held herself back, she has to take responsibility for not expressing herself. That is her issue and one that it appears she still has not addressed! So, she hasn't learnt anything about herself, she hasn't improved herself, she's still doing what she has always done and she will continue to make the same mistakes. Has she achieved anything?

 

She may have done all these things, but that's probably b/c she has kept herself busy and now that she has done them, what now? She will feel the lonliness oneday, she has no one to share her personal acomplishments with, one day she will wake up and think "is that really how I spent my life?", after all, what is more precious than love?

 

I have to say either your xw is extremely self centred and insensitive to keep sending you these mails or she's vindictive, which is it?

 

Now is the time for you to step away from her and focus on you and on what you want from the rest of your life. What will bring you happiness? I worry that you are waiting on her, DON'T, she doesn't deserve it and nothing has changed, SHE has not changed, she is still acting selfish and is still completely unable to express herself or accept her short comings which led to the demise of your marriage. In other words, she is still not willing to see her part in the breakdwon of your marriage, she's had 9 months!

 

She's buried herself in her own personal goals, rather than look within herself to see how she contributed to making herself a divorcee! She is a walk away, most people actually still beleive that marriage is for life, that it requires work and commitment like anything worth achieving, divorce is considered by some a failure a terrible thing to do, a last resort if all else fails. You xw WALKED! And, yet, she is still content to consume her own personal desires over and above something so precious that most people are lucky if they get to expereince it once in their lifetime.

 

You deserve better than this, it is time Tojaz for you to start living your life for you, to get out there and see that there is so much more than her. I strongly advise you go NC, completely and finally. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, I know it's hard and I know you are trying. The women is slowly breaking you, ENOUGH.

 

It's alright Lis, don't hold back! LOL

 

It is true, I didn't actively hold her back, but something about me or our relationship caused her to hold her self back. These are her dreams and the thing that has resonated through all of this is that she felt she had lost herself in the marriage. I couldn't disagree with that because i had seen it myself and had spoken with her about it many times. Now here she is, doing the things she wanted to and living her dreams. Shes turning back to the woman i fell in love with and all she needed was a lot less me. As much as i would like to, I cannot deny that she can only be who she wants to be away from me. Whether that is my doing or not the results are plain as day.

TOJAZ

[LisaUk]

Tojaz, this has NOTHING to do with you or your relationship and everything to with her inabilities and issues. If you think I am being harsh with you it is b/c I see you making excuses for her, taking the blame and beating yourself up! Quit it! You deserve better, you did everything you could for that women and all she did was take from you and then turn round and shove it all in your face, why are you blaming yourself for that? WHy are you evern still speaking with her after she got herself an OM and walked away from you? You deserve better, so start treating yourself better.

[tojaz]

Hi Simon, first let me say I have been reading your posts over the last couple of days and I have to ask do you belong to some kind of a cult?

 

Play Nice Lis! Simon has a lot of thought provoking posts that force people to look at things from different angles. I don't think hes hurting anyone with his posts here. Like any other post, you have to take what you can use and leave the rest. To tell you the truth, I get more tied up in knots not knowing what she has on her mind with all the contact, so any insight is helpful.

 

I'm not waiting around for her like you fear. Should that be what she wants, i don't want to miss it, but I'm not going to put my life on hold either.

 

Truth be told and as sad as it is. If my presence caused her to hold herself back, I wouldn't want that for her either.

TOJAZ

[LisaUk]

Play Nice Lis! Simon has a lot of thought provoking posts that force people to look at things from different angles. I don't think hes hurting anyone with his posts here. Like any other post, you have to take what you can use and leave the rest. To tell you the truth, I get more tied up in knots not knowing what she has on her mind with all the contact, so any insight is helpful.

 

I'm not waiting around for her like you fear. Should that be what she wants, i don't want to miss it, but I'm not going to put my life on hold either.

 

Truth be told and as sad as it is. If my presence caused her to hold herself back, I wouldn't want that for her either.

TOJAZ

 

I always play nice, I don't have it in me to deliberately hurt anyone. That was actually a very serious question. I clicked a link he posted to a site, looked like some kind of weird brainwashing cult type thing to me, that's why I asked.

[LisaUk]

Truth be told and as sad as it is. If my presence caused her to hold herself back, I wouldn't want that for her either.

TOJAZ

 

Quit it! Your presence didn't cause her to do anything, she's a grown up! Truth be told from what you have told me, your xw was a very selfish person who only cared about having her needs met, with no consideration for your feelings of needs. Like all those hours spent working at the expense of time for your marriage, not even finding time to spend with you and making you feel bad for asking for it. Even d day started that way. So, now she's off doing what she always wanted. Well, yeah, she would be, she always did what she wanted at the expense of you anyway, this way she doesn't have to deal with any feelings of guilt she may have over always having her needs met.

[tojaz]

I always play nice, I don't have it in me to deliberately hurt anyone. That was actually a very serious question. I clicked a link he posted to a site, looked like some kind of weird brainwashing cult type thing to me, that's why I asked.

 

:confused: Must have missed that! I know you play nice, just teasing a little.

[tojaz]

Quit it! Your presence didn't cause her to do anything, she's a grown up! Truth be told from what you have told me, your xw was a very selfish person who only cared about having her needs met, with no consideration for your feelings of needs. Like all those hours spent working at the expense of time for your marriage, not even finding time to spend with you and making you feel bad for asking for it. Even d day started that way. So, now she's off doing what she always wanted. Well, yeah, she would be, she always did what she wanted at the expense of you anyway, this way she doesn't have to deal with any feelings of guilt she may have over always having her needs met.

 

I'm not saying I did anything maliciously or even conciously. It is definitely something within her, but my presence is the trigger for this. She wouldn't throw away 13 years for her career otherwise.

[LisaUk]

I'm not saying I did anything maliciously or even conciously. It is definitely something within her, but my presence is the trigger for this. She wouldn't throw away 13 years for her career otherwise.

 

But that's just it, you could have been anyone, she didn't want to consider anyone elses feelings. Her career was her one and only priority in life, no matter who she was with, when they asked for their (valid and rightful) needs to be met, if they conflicted with her wants and desires to h**l with them. The very fact you were willing to bend over backwards for her, yet she choose to walk just demonstartes that.

[floridapad]

TOJAZ,

 

Your holding yourself back. You have alot of wisdom to say but it seems to me your holding yourself back...Why???? IMHO Because you love her or perhaps because you may think she might come back or that you NEED her..... Dude.. (sorry I'm from california) you have alot going on inside yourself besides her. If only you would let go to see.. let go of her... It doesn't mean you'll never get her back... How could you have a normal relationship with her until YOU have rediscovered yourself again. How can you be happy with her until you are happy again with yourself? Yeah Yeah, I know you will think If only she would say 'Tojaz you are the man I have only loved'" and you will be in heaven. Would that REALLY be it after all she has done???? Be happy with yourself first and you will be in a better position to accept her should she decide to come back...

[Simon Attwood]

I always play nice, I don't have it in me to deliberately hurt anyone. That was actually a very serious question. I clicked a link he posted to a site, looked like some kind of weird brainwashing cult type thing to me, that's why I asked.

 

you've caught me out!!

 

now look in to my eyes look in to my eyes not around the eyes look in to the eyes

 

and .... you're under

 

It's the cult of love, baby, and our aim is to free people from their fear forged chains

 

seriously though, the only link I remember posting was the one on the ego basis of relationship conflict. It was more a psychology (with a hint of spiritual) link.

 

I dunno if that constitutes cult to you, but hey ho

[Simon Attwood]

Believe me Simon, shes not. If anyone here knows my story in its entirety its Lisa.

 

To be honest, a lot of what Lisa says, I agree with, but it is not her words that suggested to me that there were projections involved, it was the passions and motives behind them. I'm not questioning what she knows about your story, but she is taking it personally and getting angry, that anger doesn't come from your situation, it comes from her experiences. That's just the way people work.

 

 

but stronger fear that I will end up right back where i was months ago.

TOJAZ

 

Did you survive it? Did it kill you? Was it really that bad?

 

It might have appeared so at the time, but looking back, where did it actually hurt?

 

When I was a few years younger, I remember a particular relationship where the female left me without being able to give a proper explanation. And I was standing on the roof of a 6 story block of flats, wondering what it would feel like to hit the concrete 6 floors below.

 

That was back when I was selfish and scared and couldn't face reality ..

 

Fear is by far the the thing (it's not an emotion) most responsible for the destruction of relationships, no matter what rationalisations we use to disguise that fear from ourselves and others.

[tojaz]

 

Did you survive it? Did it kill you? Was it really that bad?

 

It might have appeared so at the time, but looking back, where did it actually hurt?

 

When I was a few years younger, I remember a particular relationship where the female left me without being able to give a proper explanation. And I was standing on the roof of a 6 story block of flats, wondering what it would feel like to hit the concrete 6 floors below.

 

That was back when I was selfish and scared and couldn't face reality ..

 

Fear is by far the the thing (it's not an emotion) most responsible for the destruction of relationships, no matter what rationalisations we use to disguise that fear from ourselves and others.

 

Yes, so far I survived, but yeah it was bad. There have been times when I thought about the easy out. Spent a long night quite drunk looking at a gun on the table, but I woke up and kept putting one foot in front of the other. Not exactly excited to visit that place again. So yeah, its fear.

 

Seems like you have a lot to say on the subject.... so short of joining your "cult";):laugh: I'm listening.

TOJAZ

[tojaz]

But that's just it, you could have been anyone, she didn't want to consider anyone elses feelings. Her career was her one and only priority in life, no matter who she was with, when they asked for their (valid and rightful) needs to be met, if they conflicted with her wants and desires to h**l with them. The very fact you were willing to bend over backwards for her, yet she choose to walk just demonstartes that.

 

Yes it does, and thanks al for the kick in the a$$. I take more issue with the result rather then the cause. I know I didn't stop her from doing any of these things. I suggested publishing her own stuff years ago. It is the fact that seperating from me gave her the ability to see those dreams fulfilled. That for whatever cause and whatever reason she had to destroy our marriage in order to fulfill them.

 

I'm not really beating myself up over this, because it is what it is, but it is painful to know that in her eyes I was holding her back and these acomplishments will just reinforce that vision. When in fact I know she could have acomplished all this and so much more without leaving the marriage and my attempts to support her and to take interest in those goals where turned around against me.

TOJAZ

[Steadfast]

A little perspective here.

 

I'm a journalist/photographer and have been published all over the world. Traveled all over the world. Big deal. Really, I mean it. Big deal. It isn't happiness, like one poster said earlier. It's only happy for a little bit.

 

It's also no big deal that you still love her. We can't turn it on and off. You know this, but to hear or see it written as a reminder sometimes helps us understand that the whole thing is a process. And that process takes time.

 

Going a bit deeper, would you feel better if she had fallen on her face? If she was miserable? See, despite her 'dreams coming true' this may actually be happening anyway. Only true love can bring true happiness, the other 'perks' are only temporary. Why are we so upset when we see our ex-spouses happy? Why do we want them to suffer? Because we're selfish and have issues of our own. Truth be told, if you just leave her be, her 'suffering' will come about on its own. The farther you stay away from the process the better. We very often need a dose of reality to accept this.

 

Finally Tojaz, you know as well as anyone that if she wanted to be with you, she'd be with you. She must come back and lay it out, all the way, or it's empty and hollow. Given more time apart, it will become clearer.

[Simon Attwood]

She must come back and lay it out, all the way, or it's empty and hollow.

 

It's a lovely fantasy, but reconciliations just don't happen this way, they are done in little steps, making sure that with each step, that step is reciprocated, and that we still feel safe with our footings

[Steadfast]

It's a lovely fantasy, but reconciliations just don't happen this way, they are done in little steps, making sure that with each step, that step is reciprocated, and that we still feel safe with our footings

 

I'm not sure I agree Simon, but I do agree it's rare. But consider that 'the switch' works both ways (on and off) and if it doesn't, how can the betrayed know the betrayer is sincere? Even little steps are started with _a_ step, and in these cases it is the person who has walked that needs to take it.

 

Speaking personally, I would have needed my ex to make a bold move towards reconciliation. Did fear of rejection keep that from happening? Perhaps, but it certainly wasn't the a fear of making bold moves-

[jmargel]

Tojaz, in my opinion you have put your own self-worth into this woman. She has emotionally abused you for years, to the point that you have believed you are worthless in alot of ways. With her leaving, it was just another way of proving from her that you aren't worth that much.

 

Thing is you need to pull your self-worth away from her, from this marriage. If it wasn't you, it would've been some other guy that would have been in your place. She sounds like she might be a naracassist, someone who the world revolves around with.

 

Stop being there at her beck and call. Stop answering her emails, stop checking her twitter page. Yes, unfortunetly you were living a lie, but it wasn't because of 'you'. Like I said you just happened to be the waiting victim at the time.

 

You need to start getting and living in confidence. Set short term goals and accomplish them. Start doing things for yourself. She's not sitting around pouting about you, so why should you do the same? Don't waste anymore time on this, don't get yourself into such a rut where you have become depressed or suicidal. Stop the self-loathing and start the self-appreciation. It's time to move on and it's ok to do that.

[GoodDad]

Tojaz,

 

You are trying to get in her head based on the emails and twitter thread. There may have been some success in her life now, but you have no idea if she is truly happy or just doing well, because she is focusing more on that rather than juggling both the home life and career. Sure she can accomplish more career wise without the homelife, but you lose out on the love and support of a partner that way, the balance.

 

And you are making an assumption that you were holding her back. Come on man. Were you belittling her, verbally abusive, telling her she couldn't do it?? Actually you have posted you did the opposite. She was holding herself back, for her own issues, and for you now to beat yourself up over it serves no purpose man.

 

It's just hard because you still have feelings and some part of you hopes for a reconcillation even if you aren't consumed by it. Only time will tell what will happen there, if anything or if you both will move on.

 

But regardless, don't beat yourself up so much. There's been some good advice on this thread. Follow it.

 

Take care,

 

GD

[LisaUk]

To be honest, a lot of what Lisa says, I agree with, but it is not her words that suggested to me that there were projections involved, it was the passions and motives behind them. I'm not questioning what she knows about your story, but she is taking it personally and getting angry, that anger doesn't come from your situation, it comes from her experiences. That's just the way people work.

 

Hi Simon

 

Without wanting to go into detail or reasons for my anger on Tojazs behalf, I would still like to make the point here that my anger is not a projection and does not come from my own expereinces. I will admit that there are similarities between mine and Tojaz's situations, but that isn't why I got so personally angry. I really do not want to say anymore than that, but please I would ask that you take my word for it.

[tojaz]

Hi Simon

 

Without wanting to go into detail or reasons for my anger on Tojazs behalf, I would still like to make the point here that my anger is not a projection and does not come from my own expereinces. I will admit that there are similarities between mine and Tojaz's situations, but that isn't why I got so personally angry. I really do not want to say anymore than that, but please I would ask that you take my word for it.

 

Lis, most of the vets here know how long you and I have been posting to each other, and have seen me get downright furious on some of your threads when you were beating yourself up. Simon is new and probably not familiar with our old threads etc., but I appreciate you returning the favor when i needed it.

 

Simon, I appreciate your insight and have really enjoyed your posts that have given me quite a bit to think about. Keep em coming.

TOJAZ

[Simon Attwood]

Hi Simon

 

Without wanting to go into detail or reasons for my anger on Tojazs behalf, I would still like to make the point here that my anger is not a projection and does not come from my own expereinces. I will admit that there are similarities between mine and Tojaz's situations, but that isn't why I got so personally angry. I really do not want to say anymore than that, but please I would ask that you take my word for it.

 

 

Hi Lisa

 

While it is true, I do not know much of any history between the 2 of you, I do know that you live on different continents, so that history is at once limited.

I do know, however how people work emotionally, especially where anger is concerned. I've spent many years studying and researching the psychoanalytic basis for abuse, anger, violence, aggression and cruelty. Although considered a layman, as I choose to study for my own benefit and knowledge rather than for any professional endeavour. I chose to do so because of my personal experiences. During a conversation with a friend of mine, who co wrote Walking on Eggshells workbook, I was asked;

 

"So I have to ask: how does it feel to be right alongside folks on the cutting edge, in your dissatisfation & critiques of the current state of the art? Because that is where you are, you must realize. If nothing else is gained from this conversation, perhaps at least you can go away with the validation of knowing that your thoughts are in synch with cutting edge research & future directions for the field"

 

I just laughed and said I'd never considered it that way before.

 

I can assure you that some of you anger, at the very least, as altruistic as you would like it to appear, eminates from your own experiences, and is behind the anger displayed earlier in the thread. Regardless of your history with Tojaz

[Simon Attwood]

Simon, I appreciate your insight and have really enjoyed your posts that have given me quite a bit to think about. Keep em coming.

TOJAZ

 

 

I'm not going anywhere

 

I kinda like it here.

 

The posts I make often require a great deal of digging and emotional wringing of myself, and can be quite draining, so I pace myself

[Simon Attwood]

I would add, Lisa, that even if you were his sister, or even mother, you would not be able to help yourself from attaching some of your own emotions from past experiences.

 

Now a question;

 

How old is your brain?

[LisaUk]

I would add, Lisa, that even if you were his sister, or even mother, you would not be able to help yourself from attaching some of your own emotions from past experiences.

 

Now a question;

 

How old is your brain?

 

Simon, you're a laymen, I on the other hand have a BSc (Hons) In Psychology and a counselling qualification. You have your opinions and I have mine, fair enough, but I would ask you to stop calling me out personally on the boards now. As I have already stated, I do not wish to get into this conversation with you for personal reasons. I have asked that you accept my opinion that my posts to Tojaz are not projections and to be honest you don't know me or him or any other further information to make that call, so please just accept that I am not projecting. Now, please respect my wishes, I do not want to continue this conversation with you. I come here for much needed support and to offer support to others, not to be hounded and told I am doing things which I am not, I take that very personally. I have alreday been considering leaving LS permanentley recently due to other posters bullying other members, however, like I said I do need to be here as up until very recently I was having serious suicidal thoughts. SO, please just let this drop now.

 

Edit- On reflection of this post, I'm sorry if it appears I am attacking you, I would just like you to stop please. I feel by using Fruedian arguments you are basically making it impossible for me to defend myself as they are self-sealing. I have my reasons for knowing I am not projecting and now I would like to leave it there. Thanks.

Edited December 23, 2009 by LisaUk