luvstarved Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 Well, I might have jettisoned this marriage into divorce proceedings... Had a big blowup the other night. As usual, there was no rationality, no thoughtful responses, no admission of possible fault or flaw on his part, and no info to back up his accusations of me. What amazed me, I mean, really, truly amazed me, was his ability to just twist everything back to me. It was really mind boggling. When we argued the other night, he at some point said something about not being able to trust me, and I was like, are you kidding me? I have not lied to him about anything more substantial than "yes I mailed that bill" while driving to the post office to mail it. Meanwhile, I have caught him in betrayal-level lies that he clings to even after he is exposed. Like, -you ate that pie. -No I didn't, I ate the muffin. -I know you ate the pie. -Well I looked at the pie but I did not eat it. -I have proof that you ate the pie. -No someone offered me the pie but I did not eat it. I put my fork in the pie but I did not eat it... eventually becoming, I was force-fed the pie so I did nothing wrong. Just clinging to whatever percentage of the lie he thinks he can get by with. So, I kind of lost it when he suggested that I could not be trusted, and brought up several clear irrefutable instances of him lying to me. This is where I got floored. He not only flatly denied every single one of them, he turned it around and said, Wow, you are seriously mentally disturbed to think those things about me, and I fear for your sanity. I would never do anything like that and cannot believe that you would think me capable of it. He has kind of maintained that demeanor ever since, indignant at the horrible accusations I have made... I am not looking for "should I leave him" answers, that is a can of worms that does not have a simple answer. I am just wondering if it is possible that he somehow really believes his own lies? I am bewildered at how genuinely indignant he seems over being "falsely accused" of things he actually did...at the same time, he is telling me my thoughts and motives and issues and when I ask, what do you mean, give me examples of when I, for example, lied to you, then he just changes it to something else wrong with me that he is unable to support with any reality. Not only did he deny things but within a few minutes, would be making a similar accusation toward me, with absolutely nothing to back it up. Is this what delusional is? He has always kind of twisted things around to make himself look good, but this took the cake. I admitted to my own things in the conversation that rung true, I am not perfect and know that, but as soon as I admitted to my own flaws, it was like Aha! You see! You ARE the problem. Again my question is whether it is possible that he really believes this stuff, if he knows he is lying but is just trying to cling to his self-image, or if he is actually acting maliciously toward me...
westrock Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 Meanwhile, I have caught him in betrayal-level lies that he clings to even after he is exposed. Like, -you ate that pie. -No I didn't, I ate the muffin. -I know you ate the pie. -Well I looked at the pie but I did not eat it. -I have proof that you ate the pie. -No someone offered me the pie but I did not eat it. I put my fork in the pie but I did not eat it... eventually becoming, I was force-fed the pie so I did nothing wrong. Just clinging to whatever percentage of the lie he thinks he can get by with. You call these betrayal-level lies? Are you serious? What are the two of you really arguing about? It can't be about pies and muffins. There's something else underneath all of this.
tfkizzle Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 You call these betrayal-level lies? Are you serious? What are the two of you really arguing about? It can't be about pies and muffins. There's something else underneath all of this. I read that as he cheated on her...the pie was a euphemism...
Ronni_W Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 Again my question is whether it is possible that he really believes this stuff, if he knows he is lying but is just trying to cling to his self-image, or if he is actually acting maliciously toward me... Why can't it be both? I think...people do know when they've "eaten the pie" -- unless there really is a mental disorder, they do know. But, for those who habitually create a false reality to support their own crap...well, as you say, they turn their BS excuses, justifications and rationalizations around so that they're no longer lying but telling you how it "really is" (in their own minds, and despite any provable, factual or material evidence that it is a FALSE reality to which they are adhering.) Calling your own sanity and judgment into question, and making unfounded accusations -- to me, yes, that is acting maliciously. Even if one part of his motivation is "just" to further support his false reality, it still is willful and the outcome still is hurtful. It could also be that he is consciously or unconsciously projecting his own negative stuff onto you -- the part of him that does not want to admit that his 'house of cards' reality is built on his own lies and deceptions -- this would also be about him trying to protect his self-image. IMO.
mem11363 Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 He totally knows. But he is trying to punish you for something or other and this is how. Very abusive tactic as he knows this makes the other person very anxious. Sorry for you. Well, I might have jettisoned this marriage into divorce proceedings... Had a big blowup the other night. As usual, there was no rationality, no thoughtful responses, no admission of possible fault or flaw on his part, and no info to back up his accusations of me. What amazed me, I mean, really, truly amazed me, was his ability to just twist everything back to me. It was really mind boggling. When we argued the other night, he at some point said something about not being able to trust me, and I was like, are you kidding me? I have not lied to him about anything more substantial than "yes I mailed that bill" while driving to the post office to mail it. Meanwhile, I have caught him in betrayal-level lies that he clings to even after he is exposed. Like, -you ate that pie. -No I didn't, I ate the muffin. -I know you ate the pie. -Well I looked at the pie but I did not eat it. -I have proof that you ate the pie. -No someone offered me the pie but I did not eat it. I put my fork in the pie but I did not eat it... eventually becoming, I was force-fed the pie so I did nothing wrong. Just clinging to whatever percentage of the lie he thinks he can get by with. So, I kind of lost it when he suggested that I could not be trusted, and brought up several clear irrefutable instances of him lying to me. This is where I got floored. He not only flatly denied every single one of them, he turned it around and said, Wow, you are seriously mentally disturbed to think those things about me, and I fear for your sanity. I would never do anything like that and cannot believe that you would think me capable of it. He has kind of maintained that demeanor ever since, indignant at the horrible accusations I have made... I am not looking for "should I leave him" answers, that is a can of worms that does not have a simple answer. I am just wondering if it is possible that he somehow really believes his own lies? I am bewildered at how genuinely indignant he seems over being "falsely accused" of things he actually did...at the same time, he is telling me my thoughts and motives and issues and when I ask, what do you mean, give me examples of when I, for example, lied to you, then he just changes it to something else wrong with me that he is unable to support with any reality. Not only did he deny things but within a few minutes, would be making a similar accusation toward me, with absolutely nothing to back it up. Is this what delusional is? He has always kind of twisted things around to make himself look good, but this took the cake. I admitted to my own things in the conversation that rung true, I am not perfect and know that, but as soon as I admitted to my own flaws, it was like Aha! You see! You ARE the problem. Again my question is whether it is possible that he really believes this stuff, if he knows he is lying but is just trying to cling to his self-image, or if he is actually acting maliciously toward me...
JaneInVegas Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 (edited) luvstarved, I laughed outloud so hard at your pie anology that my SO walked in from the other room to see what was so funny! Not only did you make it funny, but you oh so well nailed it on the head, the way men twist things around! I have no words of wisdom for you, only that your guy is (sadly enough) just like 90% of the men I have ever known who have been caught red-handed (including my current SO). I may get bashed for saying this, but he is being a typical male. When I handed my SO physical, concrete evidence of his EA he went on an angry tirade of how I was absolutely insane for thinking such a thing! With PROOF in his FACE. I think some men (most men?) just don't know how to deal with their emotions when confronted with their backs literally up against the wall. It's like a knee-jerk reaction or something - "I DIDN'T DO IT!" - and it's the only safety mechanism they have in their brain to avoid a huge fight/confrontation to be able to slither off to the world of Peace And Denial, somewhere in that cave they love to lounge in so often. Just my take on it ... but I'm thinking I'm pretty accurate. Edited December 20, 2009 by JaneInVegas
Author luvstarved Posted December 21, 2009 Author Posted December 21, 2009 luvstarved, I laughed outloud so hard at your pie anology that my SO walked in from the other room to see what was so funny! Not only did you make it funny, but you oh so well nailed it on the head, the way men twist things around! I have no words of wisdom for you, only that your guy is (sadly enough) just like 90% of the men I have ever known who have been caught red-handed (including my current SO). I may get bashed for saying this, but he is being a typical male. Just my take on it ... but I'm thinking I'm pretty accurate. Yes you probably are...and FTR, the lies were not about pie nor an affair...just trying to demonstrate the pattern. I have been around a lot of guys and he is really worse than anyone I have known...most guys I know will eventually 'fess up and then talk it out at least a little, he just denies denies denies and calls me nuts and never talks about anything, telling me things like"you can't handle the truth" and "I can't talk to you because you are so irrational". I did lose my emotions that night because of the extremity of things...it's like I am trying to get my feelings validated and being told that the basis of them is complete fiction and that I am delusional...where does one go with that? It's the lies I have a hard time handling. I don't believe in total brutal honesty - I've been with that guy too and that was no fun - but sheesh.
NoIDidn't Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 I don't know how you do it. You've been posting about suffering and struggling through this marriage for years (as far as I can remember). You say you're not posting about an affair, but his logic and the way he is making you question your own sanity just screams affair to me. Either that or you are dealing with a big time Narcissist that is having fun twisting you into a mental and emotional pretzel.
81West Posted December 22, 2009 Posted December 22, 2009 There are personality structures out there that are capable of cruel, manipulative, utterly boldfaced lies. They are completely undeterred when caught, and simply breeze into the next self serving corker. There is often a general lack of regard for social conventions - holding down jobs, respecting the rights of others, accepting responsibility for things etc.
Author luvstarved Posted December 22, 2009 Author Posted December 22, 2009 There are personality structures out there that are capable of cruel, manipulative, utterly boldfaced lies. They are completely undeterred when caught, and simply breeze into the next self serving corker. There is often a general lack of regard for social conventions - holding down jobs, respecting the rights of others, accepting responsibility for things etc. It's very confusing to me because when he is being treated the way he deems he should be, then he seems genuinely happy, and has gotten better over the years about being helpful (slowly and only to a point but still should acknowledge it). But ANYTHING that suggests a chink in his armor and all bets are off. He does have a job and seems highly respected there, he is pretty reliable and responsible where he is able to be (he is not a "problem solver"). Say something that he thinks is "trashing him" (like last night I got a little testy because like every night he asks our daughter every two minutes or so if her homework is done, even while she is sitting there doing it or has already told him 3 times that it is done, just keep asking the same questions over and over A LOT) and he just goes off on how horrible I am, am not a good person, etc. The lies are just flagrant...not only does he deny things he has said or done, he will also turn around and attribute those same things to me. He left 3 counselors for "trashing him" and being "incompetent" and now when we argue he will trot out every unfavorable thing they said about me but discard everything they said about him. Like, they were right about you but wrong about me. He's right that between lack of sex and not being able to give him any feedback about how his behavior affects others, along with being responsible for everything in the household, I am often in a bad mood lately. But rather than ask how he can help, he just uses this to justify his apparent low opinion of me, and his remarks about how I suck as a person, nobody else would tolerate me, etc. Yet, yesterday he called me several times at work wanting to chat at length .... Like HE was looking for reassurance? Or maybe, just trying to keep posted on me while he conducted underhanded business? I don't know anymore... I also noted yesterday that on his dresser was paperwork where he has opened a dept store charge account, something he has never done in our 13 years together...I would like to think it was to buy me an expensive Xmas present but part of me is wondering if this was something he was advised to do for some divorce-related reason. Guess I'll get a better clue Xmas morning, when I get something nice from there - or not.
Author luvstarved Posted December 22, 2009 Author Posted December 22, 2009 I don't know how you do it. You've been posting about suffering and struggling through this marriage for years (as far as I can remember). You say you're not posting about an affair, but his logic and the way he is making you question your own sanity just screams affair to me. Either that or you are dealing with a big time Narcissist that is having fun twisting you into a mental and emotional pretzel. I think he is too scared of an affair, although I feel he would in a minute if he thought there'd be no consequences...I have over YEARS really figured out that he prefers masturbation, even though he denies it. Really I have pieced together a LOT of information to feel pretty secure in that conclusion...and yes I think that is a part of his narcissistic-leaning personality. I have stayed thus far because in my heart I believe he is more screwed up than malicious and though I acknowledge that he is a big boy and responsible for his own behavior, I feel he was trained to be the way he is by his also-ultimately-well-meaning-but-deeply-screwed-up-mother. It isn't like I am kidding myself that I can fix him but I do keep hoping that the more he is away from her and with someone a bit more based in reality that he will gradually learn what empathy is about. Because, he does not seem to openly fail to care about others...in fact, he thinks he does that quite well, which is delusional but comes across as sincere in some way...he seems to genuinely LACK empathy...he's not refusing to give it, he doesn't have it to give... Sometimes, when I express things in a certain way, a light bulb will flicker if only for a minute...aha, since you put it in a way I can relate to, now I can see another side...doesn't last long, but does contribute to a sense of hope that keeps me hanging on...just for now...maybe another six months...maybe...who knows?
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