Trouble reading my date

[Vintage79]

To start, I haven’t really dated for 3.5 years, so naturally I’m seeking advice, largely because I don’t remember what how things should happen. Anyhow, I met a girl online and have been out with her 3 times. The general details are below:

 

Date 1 (mid week): Had dinner at a local restaurant she had never been to. It was nice, but conversation focused almost exclusively on work. Obviously that failed to generate a romantic vibe, but it was raining outside and she drove me home (I walked to the restaurant). No hug, hand shake, or kiss – just a good bye.

 

Correspondence: I wrote to her a few days after date 1, and basically said it was interesting meeting her, but waaay too focused on career. Mentioned some other things, and then suggested meeting up again to see if things would pan out differently. She responded pretty quickly, seemed very surprised that she ever heard from me again, and was seemingly excited to meet again. (this type of response surprised me)

 

Date 2 (1 week after date 1, midweek)): Completely different, fun, lots of energy and laughs. Randomly drove around, grabbed some light food and went to a music venue she’d been wanting to go to for the past 10 years (she picked the location as I’m new to the city, while she’s a veteran – although I coaxed her into going to the place she’d never been to). Music was awful, but led to some interesting, oddball, lightly humored conversation. Drove home, kissed her (nothing heavy, but nice), and mentioned meeting up the following week as I was going on a trip – she said yes to the future engagement.

 

Call: A few days before meeting her, I had a great call with her and set up the plans for date 3…again, fun and plenty of laughs.

 

Date 3 (9 days after date 2, Friday night): Drove around and found some dinner. Great conversation – again, then awkwardly drove around a bit, almost went home (as she seemed tired), but ended up going to a music venue I picked out (apparently another place she’d been wanting to go for 10 years). Here it was hit or miss, sometimes she was tired, sometimes energized. I kept asking about her yawning, but she said she’s perpetually tired while she’s “on call” – she’s a doctor, but that she doesn’t let it interfere with her personal life. Regardless, the frequent signs of being tired made it very hard for me to read her and generated a few, although not long, awkward silences. By the end of the show, she seemed pretty energized as the show was good (she even took one of the band’s posters from the wall). Drove home with pretty good conversation – again, kissed her good night – which got a very big smile out of her. Didn’t say anything about meeting her again.

 

Quotes from her on date 3,aside from what was already mentioned:

 

1. You’re a bit odd, but perhaps I am as well

2. I would go home if I wasn’t having fun

3. I was really looking forward to tonight

 

Basically, I think things are going pretty well, but the fact that things didn’t seem to ratchet up during date 3 relative to date 2 seemed a bit strange to me. There was definitely a bit more physical contact, but not much more (but she never shied away), and the kiss good-bye was essentially the same as date 2. Do you think she just likes to take things more slowly? Or perhaps I’m taking things too slowly, given her general responses to contact and the kiss on date 3? Should I attempt to be at least a bit more aggressive/assertive – perhaps try to drop in some intimacy with a few kisses earlier in the evening (the response to the kiss on date 3 makes me think she was looking for more earlier in the evening)? Did the questionable first date poison, or at least slow down, the progression of future dates? How long should I wait to chat with her again/go out with her again (not sure if there are typical rules) – or should I try to be in very frequent contact, even though that hasn’t really been the case so far? Any ideas about what to do on the next date to try to build things out at least a bit more?

 

This is definitely long, but any thoughts would be appreciated.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Vintage79

[deux ex machina]

...Odd ball quotes from her on date 3:

1. You’re a bit odd, but perhaps I am as well

2. I would go home if I wasn’t having fun

3. I was really looking forward to tonight

 

What prompted her comment #2?

 

I'd say try not to overanalyze too much.

 

She seems responsive to your kissing her - yes, if I were you I'd try a kiss in earlier in the evening next time, if it feels right and natural.

 

Time will tell.

Edited December 19, 2009 by deux ex machina

[Vintage79]

I'm not entirely sure what got the whole comment, but she was yawning almost non-stop at one point, so after a few yawns, I'd ask her how she was doing and if she wanted to leave (the yawns confused me, even if she kept trying to justify by citing extensive work hours).

 

As for not trying to over analyze - I don't really think of this as so much analyzing, just more trying to figure out how people think and what drives them. I'm definitely going to ask her out again and am fairly certain I'll get a yes. I guess the basic gist is figuring out what, if anything could have been done better. I haven't really date for a long time (thanks in part to a 3 year relationship ending a few months ago), so I kind of have to relearn things.

[2sunny]

you're doing fine - you're still in the game and she is still showing up.

 

maybe hold her hand or kiss her through an evening out next time. taking it slow is often a good sign. don't think to much... just follow her lead and watch her body language - which should give you clues to what she wants and when she's ready.

[ordinary_girl]

it sounds to me that she was genuinely tired. I had a date like that recently, the guy was working 12-15 hour days and he was knackered - though he perked up a bit after a glass of something and it was enjoyable.

 

just show her that you understand she has a demanding job. ask her (in a nice way) if there is any time at all when she isn't on call so you can schedule that date around that and see what she is really like when she is rested.

 

it sounds like she is interested and that she is making the effort.

[Vintage79]

In reading body language, what do you do when half the time she's yawning and looking almost defensive, while the other half the of the time, she's exceedingly open, and if anything, wanting some kind of contact? Do I buy into her claims of being tired because of her medical rotation(work), or does this like an excuse?...right now I tend to believe it, but I may be naive. Moreover, she's never really initiated any kind of physical contact...it's always me, but she seems to like it when I do it...maybe she expects the guy to do the leading, or is shy (in terms of contact)?

 

It's really the first sentence of this response that is what's confusing me.

[deux ex machina]

I'm not entirely sure what got the whole comment, but she was yawning almost non-stop at one point, so after a few yawns, I'd ask her how she was doing and if she wanted to leave (the yawns confused me, even if she kept trying to justify by citing extensive work hours).

 

As for not trying to over analyze - I don't really think of this as so much analyzing, just more trying to figure out how people think and what drives them. I'm definitely going to ask her out again and am fairly certain I'll get a yes. I guess the basic gist is figuring out what, if anything could have been done better. I haven't really date for a long time (thanks in part to a 3 year relationship ending a few months ago), so I kind of have to relearn things.

 

That makes sense.

 

I think you are doing just fine. Just try for more closeness and intimacy and see how everything pans out.

 

Best of luck.

[ordinary_girl]

In reading body language, what do you do when half the time she's yawning and looking almost defensive, while the other half the of the time, she's exceedingly open, and if anything, wanting some kind of contact? Do I buy into her claims of being tired because of her medical rotation(work), or does this like an excuse?...right now I tend to believe it, but I may be naive. Moreover, she's never really initiated any kind of physical contact...it's always me, but she seems to like it when I do it...maybe she expects the guy to do the leading, or is shy (in terms of contact)?

 

It's really the first sentence of this response that is what's confusing me.

 

nah, don't worry about that just yet. give her a chance and chill. you haven't invested enough in this yet to get hurt

[Vintage79]

Thanks for all the input so far - and so fast. I definitely am not in the position to get hurt yet...so I'm not concerned about that. Honestly, I'm a scientist, so I just like learning about how things work/happen - interactions with people are no different than understanding a chemical reaction or a Pavlovian response. People on this forum seem pretty darn insightful, so I figured why not put myself out there, learn from some experts, and hopefully help myself at the same time - it's an intersting way to spend time on a snowy, rainy, gloomy afternoon.

[ordinary_girl]

Thanks for all the input so far - and so fast. I definitely am not in the position to get hurt yet...so I'm not concerned about that. Honestly, I'm a scientist, so I just like learning about how things work/happen - interactions with people are no different than understanding a chemical reaction or a Pavlovian response. People on this forum seem pretty darn insightful, so I figured why not put myself out there, learn from some experts, and hopefully help myself at the same time - it's an intersting way to spend time on a snowy, rainy, gloomy afternoon.

 

interactions with people are very different from the Pavlovian response though. we are more complicated and tend to be unpredictable.

 

we are a bit like indefinite integrals: the combination is endless

[2sunny]

she may actually be tired- but still wanting to be with you.

 

ask her for a good day and time that she KNOWS she won't be tired, then PLAN a date according to that when you agree on a day and time.

 

have a plan - no aimlessly driving around looking for something to do - this could make anyone seem tired. it also allows her to understand that you are a man that TAKES the INITIATIVE and LEAD! this is important to strong women. a strong man that has a plan and makes my time with him a priority is key. ESPECIALLY if she's a busy gal. you don't want to leave her thinking "i could be home sleeping."

 

if you WATCH for body language clues - you will see them. you may not have been capable of paying attention enough. it will tell you more than her words.

[Lish]

A scientist at a music venue? Hah sorry, I'm being a bit narrowminded

 

Date me instead?!

[Vintage79]

Why are you surprised that there are scientists at music venues? I know, it's the stereotypes, but in truth, it really depends on where you are. Besides, I don't really think of myself as a classic build of scientist - I'm kind of an obscure, mysterious incarnation of tech dork meets real world.

[Broseph]

Ill date you Lish, the girl Im seeing right now isnt going anywhere... but your either gonna have to come to Australia or im gonna need to go to Northern Ireland

 

Vintage it seems to me that you are doing more than fine so far, she is reponsive to you and is going out on dates. I agree with other posters is that maybe you should test out how she responds to hand holding and all that other stuff. I wouldnt sweat it too much, go with the flow but maintain your interest in her.

Edited December 20, 2009 by Broseph

[Vintage79]

I'll give the mildly more forward approach a whirl next time, and try to push a bit more physical contact up front, like hand holding...we'll see.

 

That said, the timing of things is starting to become difficult, and may become problematic, as I'm leaving the area for a while (about 10 days) due to the holidays...not sure if I can pull something off before I leave or not. I just saw her Friday night, and would have to try to squeeze in something for tomorrow (Monday) night - and likely just something casual and probably short...nothing fancy (moreover, this may work for me, but may not for her...given her currently busy schedule which will be relaxed in January). Would I be better off waiting until I get back so we can do something a bit more entertaining, as if I try for tomorrow, it would likely just be for some quick food, and would likely be hard to lead things anywhere interesting.

 

The benefits:

1. I see her once more before I leave

 

Cons:

1. She may have to say no as her schedule's busy (which is fine), but I won't really be able to propose alternative days for quite some time (leaving her with some negativity)

2. Would be short and likely nothing all that amazing/interesting - well, aside from seeing each other over dinner - is the short duration of this potential meeting bad, given that we've only seen each other a few times?

[carhill]

Would I be better off waiting until I get back so we can do something a bit more entertaining

 

Yes, IMO, wait. Holidays are a busy time, both with family and friends and for a working professional like a doctor, depending on her specialty. Lots going on. If what you're sharing is valuable, it'll be there in January. Communicate, share why you'll be away, if not already done, and wish her well during the holidays and that you look forward to seeing her again upon returning.

 

I would have a different opinion if you were further along in intimacy or already sexual. That's not the case. Best wishes

[Vintage79]

Thanks Carhill - any more thoughts on the timing of things?

[carhill]

IMO, a quick call or two (no e-mails or texts) during your travel period wouldn't hurt.... 'you know, I was standing here in awe of the beauty of The Louvre and thought I'd call you. How have you been?' bla, bla, keep it short....

 

Another aspect is accepting that you are interviewing her as a potential. A mistake I often made, to my detriment, was trying to figure the woman out, rather than deciding if what she was showing me was something I wanted and which added value to my life. I had the wrong focus. In my zeal to connect, I lost my priorities. I would suggest keeping that in mind.

 

Also, at this early juncture, I would suggest keeping your mind and eyes open to other potentials. Focusing solely on one person this early can cause premature investment and a myopia of sorts. No need to be obvious about it, but survey your domain. After 3 1/2 years, I'm sure that domain can be substantial

[Vintage79]

If only I could pull off something cool like the Louvre - reality will be more like, "hey, it's ass cold in Minnesota, so naturally I was thinking about you"...which of course is probably not the best idea. That said, I get your point...a few calls.

 

Moreover, I'm definitely still shopping the market, and have actually been on plenty of dates over the past 3 or so months. Some went well, many not so great, but it's a live and learn scenario for me. I seem to click reasonably well with the girl mentioned in this thread, at least when she's not yawning. The pseudo-chemistry paired with the occasionally confusing and contrasting signals drove me here.

 

That said, it's not so much that I have to connect with this girl - it's more like I don't want to do anything easily avoidable/stupid to kill any chance. If it doesn't pan out, oh well, no harm done, but I might as well try to make things work out when I see potential.

[Vintage79]

Any one other than Carhill want to comment on timing another date - should I try to squeeze it in before I head off for the holidays, or wait until I get back?

[Lish]

Any one other than Carhill want to comment on timing another date - should I try to squeeze it in before I head off for the holidays, or wait until I get back?

 

Trouble is.. you don't really know how many guys she's dating - she could have a few more dates in by the time you get back. And anything could happen...could become exclusive...anything.

I'd ask her out again. It may not be a massive date for hours on end... but I don't see what harm there is going for coffee and grabbing something to eat?

 

Regarding the yawning things. It seems like you mention it alot & were truly offended by it? Perhaps she was GENUINELY exhausted? Do you expect her to just be able to turn tiredness off just because she has a date with you?

[Vintage79]

Would I prefer that she wasn't yawning - absolutely yes, but I think it's a temporary thing that aligns with a current two week schedule that she has at work (which happen 4 times per year). My impression is that she was genuinely tired, but it nonetheless complicated reading body language, in particular because as many likely know, when you're tired, you fade in and out, so her behavior was somewhat cyclic, from yawning and quiet to energetic...confusing, at least for a guy who admits to not being a body langauge pro.

 

Your point about not knowing how many guys is one of the reasons I posted this question - that and because I think it would be good to try to minimize space between engagements to keep as much momentum as possible. I'm still a bit torn about what to do, but heck, I'm leaving town for 9 days, so my kitchen is empty - seems like a reasonable excuse to go out to dinner...just have to find some company.

[carhill]

I think coffee or lunch would be a great idea if she has time. Keep it brief.

 

Also, I would respect a woman who called and rescheduled a date if she was beat to heck from working/ill/etc.. To me, that would be preferable to pumping her with caffeine to keep her vertical or seeing her tonsils every few minutes due to yawning, but YMMV on that one.

 

OP, try the coffee/lunch gig and see how it goes. BTW, you could be looking at a picture of The Louvre while freezing your ass off in Minnesota That's my way of saying 'be creative'. Women like that.

[Vintage79]

I don't plan on doing any kind of caffeine dump - she's old enough to figure out what she wants/needs, so I'm not going to coerce her one way or the other.

 

By the way, staring at photos in Minnesota - nice, I'll have to remember that one, in particular selectively removing the bit about the photo.

 

I'll let you guys know how things pan out - worst case scenario I get to spend some pleasant time with the family...darn.

[carhill]

Here's the thing. If you call her to go to lunch with you, it's because you want her to join you for lunch. It has to come from that place, IMO. Any self-perception of fleeting interest, competition, time-factoring and the like will sabotage you. Your contact with her is based on confidence.

 

Lastly, normally, for men, things are literal, like your response to my post. With women, think outside that box.