walcnogard Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 My wife has four female cousins, three of them are engaged. A couple of years ago, we took a Christmas "shopping" trip together that consisted of hitting a few bars, hitting a few strip clubs, then having breakfast at a local diner. The trip was a lot of fun, nobody got too crazy in the club (that I know, but then again I was so naive as to believe that we were actually going shopping on this trip), and we planned the trip to be a yearly thing. Last year, the trip got snowed out and we waited another year and the trip was just yesterday. I was excited about the trip because it's a fun time with the guys and looking at naked women are involved. However, I got a call from one of the guys earlier in the day saying that I needed to pick up my father in law because he was going to take the trip with us. I don't mind saying that bit of news freaked me the hell out, but being a good sport, I went along with it. We all met up, picked up one of the other guys, and headed out to the club. Well, the night started out innocently enough at a tavern for dinner and a few drinks, then moved to the club, where we sat and watched naked women dance and gyrate to bad music while we drank watered down beer. Well, one of the guys slipped one of the dancers a $20 and tried to send her off with my father in law for a private lap dance. To his credit, he paused, but he eventually went off with her for the dance. After the club, we all drove home and I expressed my discomfort at him being along on the trip (I look to him as a second father since my own father passed away 6 years ago), but was willing to go along with it. I then expressed my intense displeasure at his acceptance of the lap dance (to which he responded, "It's not the first time". Not sure if that was a defense or not) and we fought verbally back and forth for about 20 minutes before finally agreeing to disagree. It should be pointed out that my brother in law also bought two lap dances. But, it does not stop there. My wife and I have built our relationship on complete and total honesty. She woke this morning and I talked to her about what happened. We talked about it, she became angry, and my father in law called up this morning in a huff to cancel a family dinner that was planned for tomorrow. I apologized for having to be the one to tell her the news, tried to comfort her because she is very against any sort of cheating and finally said, "I don't care what he does." Was I right to confront my father in law? Was I right to tell my wife? What happens in Vegas stays there? Anything else? I just had to vent and get other opinions. Thank you for any words of wisdom you can provide.
Lucky_One Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 So it's ok for you to go look at naked women and ok for some of your relatives in your peer group to get a lap dance, but not ok for your FIL to do so? And you were angry with him because he did exactly what you and your buddies do?
anne1707 Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 So it's ok for you to go look at naked women and ok for some of your relatives in your peer group to get a lap dance, but not ok for your FIL to do so? And you were angry with him because he did exactly what you and your buddies do? All there is to say really. Totally agree with Lucky One.
Ophelia Rue Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 Soooo...you're allowed to enjoy a strip club but your father-in-law isn't? Am I missing something here?
Lucky_One Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 And your wife is very upset because she is very against cheating of any kind? So she's upset with you, too? Or just her father? Because this sounds like this old tired LS argument - is going to a strip club cheating. If she believes that strip clubs have the basic equivalence of cheating, then she should be furious with you for having been multiple times and "cheating" on her, and only mad at her dad for going this one time. Your FIL may have been dealing with some reverse peer pressure going on - someone paid for him to get a lap dance and he wanted to show that he was as hip and cool as the young studs. I just can't get past the fact that you are angry with him for identical behavior.
Author walcnogard Posted December 19, 2009 Author Posted December 19, 2009 I did not receive any lap dances at the club during either trip to the club. I am not upset with my father in law for coming to the club (though it was sa strange dynamic), but I was upset about the lap dances. On our first trip to the club two years ago, there was no evidence of lap dances to my knowledge and we all sat at a table away from the stage and only watched. I don't think that going to the club is cheating, nor does my wife. The issue for me is the lap dances. That is extremely intimate contact with another woman that is not his wife. I am not upset with him for "identical behavior". I initially came to the forums via a Google search of "are lap dances cheating" which led me to a 4 year old post with the same title and I was looking for some advice on the subject. All of the guys that I was with said that it is just "guys blowing off steam", but I don't agree. I told my wife because the intimate contact bothered me and she became very upset about her father's behavior during our discussion, so she feels the same. My wife and I have both watched dirty movies together and I equate going to the club in a similar fashion. I sit away from the bar, drink, and watch the dancers. I do not touch any of the dancers and I do not allow them to touch me. In fact, on this particular trip, I was smacked by one of the dancers for telling her to go away because she didn't get the hint that I didn't want a private dance. My wife does not have an issue with me watching the dancers. She was not upset with me and she knew where I would be. These are my only two trips to these types of clubs ever. I was not searching for justification for my visiting the clubs, but rather an answer to the two questions that I posted above. It seems that those of you who have responded consider my visiting the club as bad as receiving the lap dances and that I should not visit the clubs anymore. That is a valid opinion, and one that I have taken into consideration. I did not receive any advice regarding the second question as to whether it is in my jurisdiction to tell my wife that her father received lap dances at this club. I feel good about telling her, but I feel bad because that's not anything that anyone would want to hear about their father, myself included. I am neither a hypocrite nor a troll, though you may make an argument for the former, depending on your view of the clubs and if they constitute cheating. Neither my wife nor I consider simply visiting the clubs cheating, but we both agree that the intimate contact of lap dances are crossing a line. Maybe I'm on the wrong forum and I apologize for any miscommunication and inconvenience caused by my post. I suppose that the ultimate life lesson here is that if lap dances are common and most who visit strip clubs see them as normal and just "guys blowing off steam", perhaps the clubs are not my cup of tea. Another life lesson is that it is probably a bad idea to go to the internet for such personal issues. Miscommunication is very easy in the written word and among strangers. Again, I apologize for the miscommunication. Thank you for reading and I wish all of you the best.
anne1707 Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 How come you are so troubled by your FIL having a lap dance but do not appear to be bothered that your BIL had two? (by the way, I do not think going to a strip club constitutes cheating - the lap dancing is another issue though - not cheating but definitely inappropriate if in a LTR).
Lizzie60 Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 Was I right to confront my father in law? Nope..that was verrrry wrong.. you are not his father.. therefore you have no right to tell him what he should or shouldn't do.. I think he's old enough to make his own decisions. Was I right to tell my wife? Even worst... why did you tell her something that is not really her business. He's her father.. you should have kept your mouth shut about this.. What happens in Vegas stays there? Exactly... Anything else? If you were so scandalized about your FIL going with you.. you should have found an excuse not to go.. Bottom line.. I know you're not upset because he went with you guys.. you're upset about the lap dance.. and I honestly think he was somewhat a jerk to do that in front of his kids... that was kind of stupid of him .. but you had no business to tell your wife and upset her about it.. Since you had an argument about it.. now it's out of your system.. he knows how you feel about it.. so hopefully next time... he will behave. and if he doesn't .. well just stop going when he's there.. period..
Author walcnogard Posted December 19, 2009 Author Posted December 19, 2009 Sorry if it seems that I am focusing on my father in law. I wanted to handle each issue at once. I'm also bothered by my brother in law, but when we spoke, he said to me, "my wife (her name withheld to protect) is going to kill me and he mentioned that the next time (if there is a next time) he's only going to bring the cover charge and sit back away from the stage with me to prevent any misconduct in the future. My father's cavalier attitude towards the lap dances and his admission that this "wasn't his first time" is what bothered me. If he admitted, similar to my brother in law, that it was a one time thing and a colossal mistake, then I would feel better about it. If I find that my brother in law makes the same "mistake" again in the future, then there I will be angrier. Again, lack of details in my initial post are perhaps making me look stupid and/or hypocritical. Again, thank you for reading and thank you for responding.
dazzle22 Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 Well, I personally think this is one of those "damned if you do, and if you don't" too. If you hadn't told your wife, she would later say, "what? You knew and didn't tell me"...and so on. I think it was EXTREMELY poor judgment of your FIL to do this in front of you. None of us wants to see a seedy sexual side of our parental figures, and they should know that, and if they have such proclivities they should keep it to themselves, in my opinion. I know some posters will probably howl and say, they are entitled to sexuality too, whatever. Our parental figures need to keep THAT out of our faces. It is WAY TOO uncomfortable. I guess it depends too if your FIL is widowed or married to your wife's mother. If he is married, that is totally gross. Ick..I don't blame you for being ticked...
Author walcnogard Posted December 19, 2009 Author Posted December 19, 2009 Thank you Lizzie for the post. That is more or less what I was looking for. Thank you, too, Dazzle for the post. It is such a bizarre issue and I was just looking for opinions as to how other's felt about what they might do in a similar situation. This, too, shall come to pass. I'm not looking for a right or wrong because it is such a thorny issue and there are other issues at hand, but I now hope that everything works out for the best and I don't think that I will be visiting one of these clubs ever again. Yes, I am naive enough to believe that the clubs were innocent naked fun at one point in time. I no longer believe this.
anne1707 Posted December 19, 2009 Posted December 19, 2009 It does feel as if part of the problem here is that you are looking upon your FIL as a father figure and then taking the stance that many take when it comes to their parents and sex - it feels wrong, taboo. Your wife is more than likely feeling this way hence she is so upset (yet blinkered to the behaviour of her brother(BIL?)) Your FIL is human. Just like all the men on your night out. He screwed up. But he was also pressured into it. And yes it was finally his choice to accept the dance which is wrong. Are you sure his comment about doing it before was not just bravado? Or referred to a time before he was married? As for your BIL - he did not just have one dance. He had two. So his second thoughts on the subject were very much in favour of it. On the night, his behaviour was more extreme. The safest option is not to participate in this kind of event with family members again. It really is way too close to home as has been shown. I would be highly surprised if your FIL would be wanting to do this next year as well.
Author walcnogard Posted December 20, 2009 Author Posted December 20, 2009 The brother in law in question is her sister's husband. She said about him, and I quote, my sister will be very upset about this. VERY upset. I (me talking) hope that he puts on the big boy pants and tell her himself. I also hope the same about my father in law. In hindsight, I probably should not have broached the subject while still fresh in our minds/in front of the rest of the guys. More privately would have been much more appropriate. I did talk more privately off to the side with my brother in law about his behavior before getting into the car and erroneously confronting my father in law. I think that telling my wife was right and she said that she's glad that we have a relationship that allows us to tell each other things. I agree that family is probably not the best idea on this trip and I may try to steer them away from the clubs next year and maybe find a concert, football game or something else around the holidays that we could all attend. It would make for a much less stressful time, I think. Thank you all, especially for the opposition, as it is only from opposition and confrontation that we truly learn about ourselves and each other. Truly, all of my best to you and yours and have a happy holiday.
Lucky_One Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 "A couple of years ago, we took a Christmas "shopping" trip together that consisted of hitting a few bars, hitting a few strip clubs, then having breakfast at a local diner. The trip was a lot of fun, nobody got too crazy in the club (that I know, but then again I was so naive as to believe that we were actually going shopping on this trip), and we planned the trip to be a yearly thing. Last year, the trip got snowed out and we waited another year and the trip was just yesterday. I was excited about the trip because it's a fun time with the guys and looking at naked women are involved." My, you certainly got sanctimonious about strip clubs in a hurry.
Author walcnogard Posted December 20, 2009 Author Posted December 20, 2009 My, you certainly got sanctimonious about strip clubs in a hurry. Indeed. I mentioned above that I was naive enough to believe that it was mostly just innocent naked fun. I don't know if sanctimonious is the proper word. I still enjoy looking at naked women, but I can do that in the privacy of my own home and without the issues that have arisen as a part of this trip.
imagine Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 There are two issues here: One going to a strippers. Not cool when engaging with a family. The family is saying that it is alright to mess around on your intended. Regardless of the fun that you had. Second, FIL is saying that it is OK to cheat on your wife as he does. His wife and daughter deserve to hear this. He is cheating on both of them. I'm sorry that you are confused about these events. Please read the promise that you make before you get married. FIL and BIL broke it, irrespective of what happens in Vegas!
Gold Pile Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 Its uncomfortable to hit the clubs with certain relatives, but there is a sacred rule amongst clubbing partners about keeping the action *private* Only a first class prude or someone trying harm your FIL would tell his daughter about the guy stuff he did. If you can drive a wedge between her and those that love her, maybe you'll be better able to control her.
dazzle22 Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 "Sacred" rule among clubbers??? You are kidding right? There is nothing sacred about going to whore holes and messing around on your spouse. That is sort of like the phrase, "honor among thieves"... So is what Tiger did subject to the rules of "sacred" don't ask, don't tell??
melodymatters Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 I believe that pushing ones own values on others is simply wrong and part of the "problems in the world". You don't agree with lap dances, fine, but to tell your wife and cause a family rift was overkill imo. The poor guy was peer pressued into accepting, and so what, a hot young single mother writhed on his lap. I doubt they exchanged numbers or that he even knows her real name. If I was your FIL, I would be very pissed at you, and would heretofore not trust you at all ! No one likes a "tattle tale" Good job, arbiter of morals: you caused a family crisis during christmas !
Lizzie60 Posted December 20, 2009 Posted December 20, 2009 Its uncomfortable to hit the clubs with certain relatives, but there is a sacred rule amongst clubbing partners about keeping the action *private* Only a first class prude or someone trying harm your FIL would tell his daughter about the guy stuff he did. If you can drive a wedge between her and those that love her, maybe you'll be better able to control her. I totally agree.. never go to strip clubs with your MIL or FIL.. it's just awkward.. I agree it was wrong to tell his daughter.. she didn't have to know this.. and have a different view of her father.. it was VERY WRONG!!!!
imagine Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 I agree it was wrong to tell his daughter.. she didn't have to know this.. and have a different view of her father.. it was VERY WRONG!!!! View my previous post... Why is it very wrong to expose a betraying father?
Beerme Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 View my previous post... Why is it very wrong to expose a betraying father? I also think it was wrong to tell his wife about her father. I suppose the difference between you and I is that you feel that getting a lapdance is cheating. I don't. I'm not saying its the right thing to do, but its certainly not cheating in my opinion. Also, you state in a previous post that the father in law is cheating on both his wife and daughter by getting the lapdance. How the heck is he cheating on his daughter? Again, I'm not into the whole strip club thing, but I don't put getting a lapdance in the same category as cheating. It would be like saying that getting into a bar fight is the same as killing someone in a bar fight. Maybe both are really not the right thing to do, but one really crosses a line. As for why I feel the OP shouldn't have told his wife, its just a situation best left alone. All it can do is drive a wedge in the family. I honestly don't see an upside in telling his wife this information. I'm trying to think of one way this makes her life or her family's life better in the long run, and I can't think of one. Its like telling someone that their spouse/significant other is having an affair. You tell them because even though it may really hurt their feelings in the short term, its probably better to that they know so they can make informed decisions in the long term. In this particular situation, all this information is going to cause is anger, resentment, and distrust.
imagine Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 I suppose the difference between you and I is that you feel that getting a lapdance is cheating. I don't. I'm not saying its the right thing to do, but its certainly not cheating in my opinion. Also, you state in a previous post that the father in law is cheating on both his wife and daughter by getting the lapdance. How the heck is he cheating on his daughter? The parent is responsible for bringing up his/her children in a moral manner within a household. Is he doing so by sharing his infidelities with his son in law? My view is that he is encouraging Son in law to do the same. Lets take another angle: How secure should Mr Walcnogard feel if this deception was commonplace in the family. How comfortable would you feel if a man ground his way with your wife on the dance floor. What could you say... the answer would be that you were fine when you went out with dad to the strip show. Bottom line, a man does not betray his promises -ever. Not to his wife, Not to his family. Not to the community. Our word is what binds us!
dazzle22 Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 I really think that if he hadn't told his wife about this, it was bound to come out - it was done in front of quite a few people, and then she would have been upset with him for NOT telling her. I think it was a catch 22. To me it seems that moral ground has become so relative these days, that no bad behavior can ever be called out any more without someone saying, "you can't shove your morals down their throats". Well, I don't think that parental figures should display indiscreet sexual behavior in front of their children and children in law EVER. It is an extremely awkward situation to have to witness and then deal with. I would not have confronted my FIL in front of others, but I would have let him know that my respect for him had gone into the toilet after witnessing such behavior. In fact, if my FIL or father ever did something like that, I would not speak to them again. But I am not at all tolerant of behavior that even hints at cheating on a spouse. That is ground I will never stand down from. I would be forgiving of a lot of other behaviors, but not that from parents. I think people need to "clean up their acts" when they have kids. Time to GROW UP!! Unfortunately, a lot of people don't, and kids get terrible modeling of behavior from their parents. That is why our country is so messed up. Few from our generation give good examples to their children anymore. People are rude, inconsiderate of others, selfish, brash, crude -you name a bad trait, our generation is modeling it. When I see my parents in their elder care center, (they are in their 80's) I see a generation of people who in general, know manners, know how to behave properly. Kids are growing up like "weeds", because our generation is rife with ill mannered, uncouth people who can't control their baser instincts. My God, just look at reality TV. Makes me nauseated. And that is what sells.... (sorry,this is a pet peeve of mine).
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