I want to turn to the dark side, how do I become an A-Hole?

[carhill]

Don't many women do the same exact thing. After dealing with so much drama it is hard for a man not to notice a pattern with women sometimes.

Wog's, that's getting to the crux of the matter. Each gender observes behaviors and characteristics of the other gender that they identify with and value, but get frustrated when those characteristics of value are not shared nor found attractive. Nature will not allow men to obtain the same general sex drive as women, so, really, sex and sexual desire becomes the determining factor in how the dynamic operates. Take that out of the equation and women and men would spend much of their intimate (non-sexual) lives alone.

 

The OP desires the 'dark side' because he observes dynamics in the real world which tell him the dark side is attractive to women. His sexual desire wants a pathway to women and emmulating success is a clean and simple means to an end. IMO, his fail is this:

 

Time for me to do some spitting of my own.

 

It's the wrong impetus for success....

[stillafool]

The OP desires the 'dark side' because he observes dynamics in the real world which tell him the dark side is attractive to women. His sexual desire wants a pathway to women and emmulating success is a clean and simple means to an end. IMO, his fail is this:

 

But not all women are like this. Why don't these guys go for the women who clearly are not this way? There is someone out there for them. It seems these guys want the women who are attracted to the dark side.

[Woggle]

But not all women are like this. Why don't these guys go for the women who clearly are not this way? There is someone out there for them. It seems these guys want the women who are attracted to the dark side.

 

I don't think that men coniously do it but for people of both genders who constantly end up in bad, drama filled situations there is probably something in their subconcous that drives them to pick the same people.

[carhill]

But not all women are like this. Why don't these guys go for the women who clearly are not this way? There is someone out there for them. It seems these guys want the women who are attracted to the dark side.

Agree, but the OP's experience is unique to his life, his interactions and his perceptions. I accept (now, not always, to be sure) women's perceptions of men to be valid for them. If that perception does not match up with who I am, I accept that, as well. Is she is not attracted to her perception of who I am, accepted. I can see, with clarity through the lens of age, the frustrations of the OP. That dark side is really obvious when you're young. The quiet, successful, normal relationships aren't quite as obvious.

 

To me, looking back, it was my own perception of how relationship dynamics worked, including attraction, which was what inhibited me from being attracted to and attracting the compatible women into my life. It wasn't about them. It was my perception of the dynamic.

 

I still feel his impetus is wrong. The tone smacks of revenge for all the ignoral he's received by women. IMO, that's unhealthy. He could screw up a really good potential with those kinds of feelings.

[thegreatmoose]

I don't think that men coniously do it but for people of both genders who constantly end up in bad, drama filled situations there is probably something in their subconcous that drives them to pick the same people.

That's not an excuse for either gender. If someone keeps picking the same type of people that are completely wrong for them, that is their choice. I'm sick of the ones that repeatedly pick the wrong people and blame everyone but themselves. They need to start picking different types of people.

[skydiveaddict]

Wake up woggle, when I take part in these discussions, I'm hoping to help others see themselves and their actions (they can be of any gender - I really dont' care) in a different light rather than paint one gender as better than the other. That is your job apparently.

 

hey sally, for someone who's "hoping to help others" you seem real good at insulting people you don't even know.

[sally4sara]

Wake up woggle, when I take part in these discussions, I'm hoping to help others see themselves and their actions (they can be of any gender - I really dont' care) in a different light rather than paint one gender as better than the other. That is your job apparently.

 

hey sally, for someone who's "hoping to help others" you seem real good at insulting people you don't even know.

 

You're insulted when someone acknowledges the struggles you say you currently deal with but still believes there is no reason why you won't find your way eventually?

It might be a symptom of your problems...........

You only see the negatives.

[skydiveaddict]

You're insulted when someone acknowledges the struggles you say you currently deal with but still believes there is no reason why you won't find your way eventually?

It might be a symptom of your problems...........

You only see the negatives.

 

 

No not at all. i dont mind listening to your advice and criticisms, i can just do without the name calling.

[Stockalone]

You're insulted when someone acknowledges the struggles you say you currently deal with but still believes there is no reason why you won't find your way eventually?

It might be a symptom of your problems...........

You only see the negatives.

 

I am pretty sure that's part of the problem. As long as you have hope, those words will encourage you. But if the only thing you ever get is pep-talk, words can seem hollow eventually and will no longer reach you.

 

Among other things, this is one of the reasons why I think it is not possible to actually have a thread about this topic that doesn't turn ugly.

 

With a topic that is so sensible and hits a nerve with many posters, it is basically bound to turn out the way those threads always do.

 

Another problem (and probably the main problem) is that the issues I or other men have, are being presented in a way that is far from helpful. Some are basically demanding that women prove that they aren't all heartless b*tches who like nothing better than to mock men who have no success with women.

 

If you'd reverse roles, I would be annoyed (or even pissed off) too if I had to prove that I am not another @sshole who likes nothing better than to hit and run and loves to treat women like dirt.

 

With every new thread, more women who tried to help no longer post in those threads. But I am not sure how to change that. Those threads always go round in circles.

 

 

But not all women are like this. Why don't these guys go for the women who clearly are not this way? There is someone out there for them. It seems these guys want the women who are attracted to the dark side.

 

That's because the dark side is not the same for everyone.

 

I know from experience that a man doesn't have to become a complete @sshole to attract women. That said, even becoming a "balanced" man (from a female POV) can be something a man might consider to be crossing over to the dark side.

[sally4sara]

You're insulted when someone acknowledges the struggles you say you currently deal with but still believes there is no reason why you won't find your way eventually?

It might be a symptom of your problems...........

You only see the negatives.

 

 

No not at all. i dont mind listening to your advice and criticisms, i can just do without the name calling.

 

I don't remember calling you names. Suggesting possible impressions you might be making are just suggestions due to not witnessing you in social interactions. If they were accurate enough to fit you and feel personal, it was a lucky guess that goes a long way towards indicating your problems are not the fault of women.

 

I am making a mental list of the most unsuccessful guy in my social group. Army brat and raised without a mother. From one base to the next - nothing but aggressive, macho male role models. He has a misguided view of how women are motivated and how they "should" act. Tho he is a duty bound fella; if you ask a task of him he will not fail at it, but he is simply clueless about the social cues women give out and passes judgment on them when they don't behave how he was told woman should behave. He cannot see them as individuals with personalities like he can see in men.

 

If simply being a bad boy jerk netted you female attention - he would be saturated in it because he really comes across like a caveman sometimes. So think before you choose to just be a douche running out of options eh? If not for unhinged women with low standards existing, he wouldn't be getting laid at all.

[DollyMix]

LOL Don't be so ridiculous I'm sure if you became a jerk you'd get laid by weak and unnattractive women or when you meet a girl you really care for you'll lose her.

Don't lose hope nice guy you'll meet a girl who appreciates your nature don't try and change into something your not

[D-Jam]

thanks miko, but i'm just fed up. i think i'm gonna stick w/ the a..hole idea

 

"Fed up" is all the more reason to put dating/women on the back burner and look for more ways to fulfill yourself in life. Seriously.

 

That's what I did. When I took a moment and said to myself how much dating has been a miserable experience for me, I asked "why do you keep going back if it's so bad?"

 

That's when I changed. When I stopped looking, stopped caring if I ever found someone. I just did things for me, found new horizons, took solace in my family and friends, and stopped pressuring myself to have a GF.

 

Yes it sounds easy now because I found Ms Right, but as I said before...I'VE BEEN IN THE 'FED UP' POINT LIKE YOU ARE. I learned through my own life that while it sounds easy to become some jerk and think that will get you laid every week, as I stated in my "sarcastic" post, you still have to be someone the women want.

 

So if you're just plain old boring nice Joe Average, being a jerk will only make you plain old boring jerk Joe Average...and women will just laugh at you, tell you off, or walk away completely as opposed to friendzoning you. You look around, and the *******s are still good looking and/or wealthy and/or exciting...or they're "eh" in looks/money and they instead take advantage of women who are vulnerable.

 

You can do what you want, but I've seen loads of guys decide one day to become a "jerk" and think they'll be scoring left and right. Some do, but they're later complaining even more how they still can't get a "quality woman" or the "hotter" women still won't touch them. Others just keep failing and still are alone...only more bitter.

 

The biggest problem I've seen with many "nice" guys (even myself in the past) is that they put way too much thinking and priority on finding a woman. They forget at times to have a life...something that makes men way more attractive to women.

[Taramere]

I am making a mental list of the most unsuccessful guy in my social group. Army brat and raised without a mother. From one base to the next - nothing but aggressive, macho male role models. He has a misguided view of how women are motivated and how they "should" act. Tho he is a duty bound fella; if you ask a task of him he will not fail at it, but he is simply clueless about the social cues women give out and passes judgment on them when they don't behave how he was told woman should behave. He cannot see them as individuals with personalities like he can see in men.

 

I know someone a bit like that too. As a friend of mine said, were you to ask him to guard a shed you could trust him to stay awake for 24 hours in serious contemplation of his duties. You wouldn't leave a child with him, though.

 

It's a certain warmth and humour about their manner that gives a person magnetic appeal. If a man lacks that warmth generally, behaving like an ill-mannered douche isn't going to help him attract women. I think that might be the problem with a lot of shy "nice guys". They might be moralistic, loyal etc....but if the shyness translates as a certain coldness about their demeanour, it acts as a natural repellent. If instead of warming up a bit, they develop a hostile attitude to women and introduce an unpleasant and embarrassing faux bad boy attitude into the equation, that can only worsen matters.

[threebyfate]

With every new thread, more women who tried to help no longer post in those threads. But I am not sure how to change that. Those threads always go round in circles.

Why bother, when it does no good?

 

It's reminiscent of the following imagery:

 

A woman is sitting in a dessert, with a bucket of water. There's a wild stallion, foaming at the mouth, blatantly thirsty, desperately wanting a drink from the bucket of water.

 

The woman points to the bucket of water. But the stallion just keeps foaming at the mouth, circling, ever circling the bucket, never approaching.

 

So the woman picks up the bucket and tries to get closer to the stallion. The stallion snakes his head out and bites her, then rears on his hind quarters and tries to kill her with his front hooves.

 

The woman tries again and again to offer him the bucket of water but each time, he rears and tries to maim and kill.

 

After a bit of this madness, the woman dumps out the bucket of water, gets in her jeep and drives away.

[calizaggy]

This is what happens to lots of men..

 

Meet girl, start dating, start having sex.. The man is slower to warm up to her.. She seems to be head over heels in love, in all ways..

 

So, over time the man starts to spend more time with this female. He now LOVES her company, and loves her.. Since he enjoys her company so much, he might stop going to bars with his buddies, he might make her a priority, etc.

 

At this point, the female pulls back. Perhaps she is "bored", or starts to wonder if this is the best she can do, maybe she thinks of dating other guys that ask her out , etc.

 

So the guy now pushes her to go back to the way she was, and she pulls away more.. Now she thinks he is "clingy" and "weak". She loses interest and her attraction for him plumetts. Relationship over.

 

Studies show men have a much tougher time dealing with these types of break ups than women.. So they might look around and see women all over guys that treat them like dirt. They now feel this is the correct path to follow as well.

 

I do not think women should be treated like dirt, but they should not be a priority in a man's life if they are just dating.. That almost always makes her lose interest immediately.

[v g]

That's because the dark side is not the same for everyone.

 

I know from experience that a man doesn't have to become a complete @sshole to attract women. That said, even becoming a "balanced" man (from a female POV) can be something a man might consider to be crossing over to the dark side.

 

Interesting observation regarding the dark side is not the same for everyone. Very interesting.

[v g]

That's when I changed. When I stopped looking, stopped caring if I ever found someone. I just did things for me, found new horizons, took solace in my family and friends, and stopped pressuring myself to have a GF.

 

Yes it sounds easy now because I found Ms Right, but as I said before...I'VE BEEN IN THE 'FED UP' POINT LIKE YOU ARE. I learned through my own life that while it sounds easy to become some jerk and think that will get you laid every week, as I stated in my "sarcastic" post, you still have to be someone the women want.

 

So if you're just plain old boring nice Joe Average, being a jerk will only make you plain old boring jerk Joe Average...and women will just laugh at you, tell you off, or walk away completely as opposed to friendzoning you. You look around, and the *******s are still good looking and/or wealthy and/or exciting...or they're "eh" in looks/money and they instead take advantage of women who are vulnerable.

 

You can do what you want, but I've seen loads of guys decide one day to become a "jerk" and think they'll be scoring left and right. Some do, but they're later complaining even more how they still can't get a "quality woman" or the "hotter" women still won't touch them. Others just keep failing and still are alone...only more bitter.

 

The biggest problem I've seen with many "nice" guys (even myself in the past) is that they put way too much thinking and priority on finding a woman. They forget at times to have a life...something that makes men way more attractive to women.

 

This is so true. I asked a man I was on a date with what were his passions. He proceeded to tell me that he liked to clean his house and take the dogs to the park. Huh? This man was very attractive and successful, but huh? It also didn't help that he was complaining about his ex. Let's see. She was 15 years younger than him, stunning, and wanted him to buy her really expensive stuff. Hmm. He just didn't have a life, and that wasn't attractive to me. It had nothing to do with the fact that he was a nice guy. Although IMO truly nice guys wouldn't be dogging exes with a woman on a first date.

[carhill]

There was a mantra back in the 70's amongst my peer male group which loosely went as follows:

 

Find 'em, feel 'em, f*ck 'em, forget 'em

 

4F'er

 

As much as my socialization deterred me from following that path, I can see where it came from. It didn't exist out of thin air, for no reason, antithetical to typical family structure and theological teaching. There was a reason for it. Pragmatism. It worked. And still does. Sorry to say.

[v g]

This is what happens to lots of men..

 

Meet girl, start dating, start having sex.. The man is slower to warm up to her.. She seems to be head over heels in love, in all ways..

 

So, over time the man starts to spend more time with this female. He now LOVES her company, and loves her.. Since he enjoys her company so much, he might stop going to bars with his buddies, he might make her a priority, etc.

 

At this point, the female pulls back. Perhaps she is "bored", or starts to wonder if this is the best she can do, maybe she thinks of dating other guys that ask her out , etc.

 

So the guy now pushes her to go back to the way she was, and she pulls away more.. Now she thinks he is "clingy" and "weak". She loses interest and her attraction for him plumetts. Relationship over.

 

Studies show men have a much tougher time dealing with these types of break ups than women.. So they might look around and see women all over guys that treat them like dirt. They now feel this is the correct path to follow as well.

 

I do not think women should be treated like dirt, but they should not be a priority in a man's life if they are just dating.. That almost always makes her lose interest immediately.

 

Um, similar thing happens to women. He's really into her and is pursuing her. Once she's into him, he starts pulling back and decides he's not into her after all. He's done. She's left wondering what happened.

 

I have in recent years realized that anyone can break up with the other for any reason at any time. This has made my life much, much easier. I frankly don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me.

[paddington bear]

If you are going to use your bitterness at past experiences as the starting point to become an a*****e in order to get what you didn't get, it might work, but I don't know, it might ulitmately feel like a hollow victory.

 

I can totally understand the frustration, many of us were brought up to be 'nice' to be kind, to treat people with politeness and respect. And so, armed with this parental guidance as to how to be a good, decent human being you set forth into the world of dating thinking those qualities will of course work to your advantage only to find that instead of winning you what you want, it seems to have the opposite effect. This is very hard to come to terms with.

 

In the past I've been so bitter and angry that I thought, well, if that's how men are going to treat me I'm going to be the biggest b**ch on earth, my sole mission to break up others relationships, if I can't have a happy relationship, why should others? I will ruin marriages, split up happy couples, cause mayhem and destruction. I thought to follow the advice of Miss Havisham in Great Expectations: "Break their harts my pride and hope, break their hearts and have no mercy!"]

 

But ultimately, it comes down to this. I don't want to be a nasty person. I don't want to ruin other's lives just because I've been (incredibly) unlucky in love. I don't want to act like a b***h just to get a guy, that means keeping up the act forever to keep him around, too much like hard work, and you are not being your true self, so even if the person falls for you, they haven't fallen for you, they've fallen for your fake persona, so you lose out anyway.

 

Not that continuing to be myself and be kind and nice and supportive has done me any favours at all in terms of dating, but I can't be something I'm not which means I'm alone.

[FONT=Arial][sIZE=2]

 

[/sIZE][/FONT]

[Stockalone]

Why bother, when it does no good?

 

I am not blaming women for no longer posting in these threads.

 

 

It's reminiscent of the following imagery:

 

A woman is sitting in a dessert, with a bucket of water. There's a wild stallion, foaming at the mouth, blatantly thirsty, desperately wanting a drink from the bucket of water.

 

The woman points to the bucket of water. But the stallion just keeps foaming at the mouth, circling, ever circling the bucket, never approaching.

 

So the woman picks up the bucket and tries to get closer to the stallion. The stallion snakes his head out and bites her, then rears on his hind quarters and tries to kill her with his front hooves.

 

The woman tries again and again to offer him the bucket of water but each time, he rears and tries to maim and kill.

 

After a bit of this madness, the woman dumps out the bucket of water, gets in her jeep and drives away.

 

It is perfectly understandable that you feel like you're wasting your time if a slap in the face is all you get in return for trying to help. Your comparison illustrated that perfectly. And I agree with you there. Too often, people aren't even looking at someone else's point of view and instead just dismiss the idea.

 

However, I do think your comparison is too simple in regards to the issues in threads like this. Or maybe it is that simple and I just don't see it.

 

 

Interesting observation regarding the dark side is not the same for everyone. Very interesting.

 

I think for some people, it is hard to understand why a man would refuse to make changes, when (from a woman's POV or from the POV of most people) those changes would improve the man's chances of finding a relationship.

 

I think it's not always a question of can you change, but rather do you want to change certain things about you?

[skydiveaddict]

go back to the very first post on this thread. basher said that he wants to learn how to be an a..hole because those are the guys who get the women. all i'm saying is that has been my observation as well, right or wrong, thats just been my life experience. i know i've gotten a lot of crap on this thread about this, but that's just how it appears to me

[D-Jam]

go back to the very first post on this thread. basher said that he wants to learn how to be an a..hole because those are the guys who get the women. all i'm saying is that has been my observation as well, right or wrong, thats just been my life experience. i know i've gotten a lot of crap on this thread about this, but that's just how it appears to me

I don't think anyone is giving you crap.

 

And yes, I agree many women seem to spread their legs more for *******s over good guys.

 

 

I think the point I am getting it (and many others here too) is that becoming a "jerk" isn't a guarantee you'll get success with women. I also push that if your goal is still to find that right woman, then being a jerk won't get you any closer to it.

 

If my advice isn't what anyone is seeking then good luck anyway...maybe I'll be proven wrong and it'll be the signal for men all over to subjugate women and get laid.

 

I just look at the many years of being rejected by what I see now as "bad boy chasers" and literally all those women messed up their lives by their bad choices. I think there is hope for the "nice guy", but he's got to make sure he's not a doormat in this world. I also think it's bad that so many women need to grow to the age of 30 or more to finally "get it".

[skydiveaddict]

i dont mean crap in a bad way. just telling me how wrong i am. which is probably true. anyway, it doesnt matter after all. just found out my unit has orders for afghanistan right after the holidays. 15 fun filled months in helmund province. i cant wait lmfao!

[Stockalone]

After my latest "lets be friends" incident I've decided enough is enough. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I've decided to dedicate myself to becoming a jerk, an A-Hole.

 

Do you have friends who aren't @ssholes, but are in relationships nonetheless?

 

Do you have a sister? If so, how would you feel if an @ssholes would f*ck her and dump her after he got what he wanted?

 

I have my own theory about @ssholes:

 

Not all women are attracted to @ssholes, even though it sometimes looks that way. Most women do want a relationship where they are being treated with respect. They do not choose a man because he figuratively spits on them.

 

However, the @ssholes get attention because they get noticed. That is undeniable. The @sshole is not interested in making the woman a priority in his life.

 

And I do believe that women think that a man who needs them in his life is not worthy of them. A man must not be needy, it makes him weak! They think he doesn't appreciate them as a person, for who they are, but that for this man, every woman with a pulse would do. Most women will think you are a doormat if they think of you as needy and weak and more often than not will treat you accordingly.

 

That is something that the @ssholes exploit. Women think he appreciates having them in his life, when in reality the @sshole would be content with every woman as long as she is hot enough and he really isn't interested in her as a person.

 

Ironically, that is the very same thing they want to avoid with the needy guy but it's precisely what they will get with an @sshole in most cases.

 

Now, how many women do know the guy is an @sshole when they get involved with him? My guess is not many. Because the women who can see that he is an @sshole will avoid him. The others who don't see that, the @sshole will appear to be a confident, normal, non-needy men.

 

That often gets them laid, before the woman understands who he really is. Sometimes, the @sshole will dump her before she even knows that he was an @sshole. Other times, she will see him for what he is and leave him. And sometimes, she will stay in the hopes of changing him or because she is afraid of being alone or has other issues. And some women will probably enjoy the ride for a while, have some fun too without getting involved emotionally, knowing fully well that the guy is an @sshole.

 

So yes, depending on what you want, being an @sshole can work very well. If you want to get laid and do not care about the woman's feelings at all, being an @sshole is far superior to being a needy guy.

 

But you also have to see this realistically. If you want a relationship, do you want one with a woman who would stay with you even though you are an @sshole and treat her badly? Is that really the kind of woman you'd trust in a LTR?

 

A nice guy can not convince me that the woman he wanted (but couldn't get) when he was a nice guy are the same women he would get as an @sshole. If that is the case, your quality control doesn't work.

 

If you are the kind of guy that always gets the "let's be friends" speech, you should try to make some changes. I am not going to tell you to just be who you are and hope for the best. The chances that a woman will like you are slim, but it can happen. But more likely, it will make for some very long stretches of being single and plenty of frustration.

 

But you don't have to turn into an @sshole. If you don't mind becoming less enthusiastic, meaning you need to hold off on showing a woman how much you like her early on, your chances will improve. And you mustn't get emotionally attached too soon and mustn't make her a priority either.

 

Personally, I think it is insane, but if you give a woman only as much respect, attention and time as she gives you, you will do a lot better than before. Make one step and wait for her to follow suit. If she does, you take another step forward. And if she doesn't, you need to move on and not look back.

 

But if you can do that without feeling like a smug, sleazy salesman, you should be better off than you are now. It did work for me, I got dates and I even had women approaching me. And I never had to treat women like sh*t.

 

Sadly, or fortunately (I am not really sure) I could never wrap my head around that dynamic or embrace that change. I was deeply disappointed that the smug salesman was more appealing than the needy, caring "old" me that I liked so much more.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Stockalone