What works with women (Unfortunately)

[InspiredbyYou]

How about care about them even when they themselves cannot? if you do so, there maybe some girls learn to respect themselves more, and regain their hope for men

 

I think you had some excellent points until this last part. Is it really a man's responsibility to make women respect themselves?

 

Every time I read one of these women bashing threads the subtext for me screams of a cry out for help. I think some men are begging women to have more self respect. But then again there is a whole group of men who don't know what to do with a woman who does respect herself enough to be selective. When I first came to this site, I posted about some concerns I had in my new relationship and some people ended up focusing on the fact that my boyfriend and I were waiting to have sex. I was ridiculed because we enjoyed kissing and that was enough for us at the time. He was accused of having something wrong with him sexually because no man in his right mind at 36 would wait to have sex with a woman for more than a month. Some even questioned my attractiveness level. It really floored me how society sees sex these days and how little importance they give to the courting stage of the relationship if sex is not present. How jaded and shallow have we become?

[Lovelybird]

When I say best friend, I don't mean a man who will agree on everything I say or I do, a best friend is one who can confront when necessary, stand his ground when necessary, sweet and understanding !

[Lovelybird]

I think you had some excellent points until this last part. Is it really a man's responsibility to make women respect themselves?

 

Every time I read one of these women bashing threads the subtext for me screams of a cry out for help. I think some men are begging women to have more self respect. But then again there is a whole group of men who don't know what to do with a woman who does respect herself enough to be selective. When I first came to this site, I posted about some concerns I had in my new relationship and some people ended up focusing on the fact that my boyfriend and I were waiting to have sex. I was ridiculed because we enjoyed kissing and that was enough for us at the time. He was accused of having something wrong with him sexually because no man in his right mind at 36 would wait to have sex with a woman for more than a month. Some even questioned my attractiveness level. It really floored me how society sees sex these days and how little importance they give to the courting stage of the relationship if sex is not present. How jaded and shallow have we become?

Having self respect primarily is OWN responsibility, but others can contribute to the cycle as well.

 

Then don't listen to them, it is you and your boyfriend's happiness and decision, others comment cannot decide whether you are happy or not, it is you and your boyfriend who live with your future, others don't

[carhill]

Another perspective. Love women. Love many women. Enjoy their company. Meet and enjoy a new one every day. Instead of seeing women with negatives, embrace all of them. Perhaps, when one stands out above the crowd, you might want to focus more of your attention on that one over time.

 

The friendzone is a prison of the mind. Take it from a prisoner of many decades. The key to the door is not negative; it is positive.

[InspiredbyYou]

Having self respect primarily is OWN responsibility, but others can contribute to the cycle as well.

 

Then don't listen to them, it is you and your boyfriend's happiness and decision, others comment cannot decide whether you are happy or not, it is you and your boyfriend who live with your future, others don't

 

I agree to a certain extent, but I have also heard women complain that there was something wrong with the men they were dating if he was not pushing for sex early on. Sometimes it is a no win for guys. Guys are even called gay if they are not being forceful sexual pigs pretty much from the first date on. There exists a lot of confusion out there these days.

 

It did not affect my decision in the least, I could care less what people thought of my guy and their suspicions. It was just surprising to see how many people thought strange things because we didn't jump in bed after the second date. I would never let others' skepticism dictate how I pace my relationships sexually. The fact of the matter is that when we were ready to have sex it was amazing. There was absolutely nothing wrong with him sexually and we enjoy a magnificent sex life. He was just respecting my wishes to take things slow, something a lot of people today don't know or understand that benefits of. I was just commenting on how the general view seems to be these days.

[Lovelybird]

I agree to a certain extent, but I have also heard women complain that there was something wrong with the men they were dating if he was not pushing for sex early on. Sometimes it is a no win for guys. Guys are even called gay if they are not being forceful sexual pigs pretty much from the first date on. There exists a lot of confusion out there these days.

 

It did not affect my decision in the least, I could care less what people thought of my guy and their suspicions. It was just surprising to see how many people thought strange things because we didn't jump in bed after the second date. I would never let others' skepticism dictate how I pace my relationships sexually. The fact of the matter is that when we were ready to have sex it was amazing. There was absolutely nothing wrong with him sexually and we enjoy a magnificent sex life. He was just respecting my wishes to take things slow, something a lot of people today don't know or understand that benefits of. I was just commenting on how the general view seems to be these days.

Then it totally depends on the man to decide whether to bend because of social pressure, or stick to his values. no pain no gain

 

Yes, I am surprised too. It is ridiculous to expect sex so early on. Maybe many people just live on OTHER's expections, social pressures, and instant sex urges

 

Learning delayed satisfaction is really important for a good marriage I believe.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Lovelybird

[InspiredbyYou]

It's not that simple Lovelybird. It's the wild west out there when it comes to dating. There are no true uniform codes of ethics being followed by society so everyone fends for themselves the best way they know how hoping to keep some identity and hoping to also meet someone who will take to their expectations without having to compromise too much themselves. But it is difficult when there is no guidance.

 

At least with religion in other times there was more of a uniform path people could follow, now it's just a free for all. This is why there is so much dissatisfaction, it is so free that no one even really knows what they want anymore. I feel we've gone a little bit too far over to the other side. I read some of the threads posted here and it represents just how deeply confused people are.

[Lovelybird]

It's not that simple Lovelybird. It's the wild west out there when it comes to dating. There are no true uniform codes of ethics being followed by society so everyone fends for themselves the best way they know how hoping to keep some identity and hoping to also meet someone who will take to their expectations without having to compromise too much themselves. But it is difficult when there is no guidance.

 

At least with religion in other times there was more of a uniform path people could follow, now it's just a free for all. This is why there is so much dissatisfaction, it is so free that no one even really knows what they want anymore. I feel we've gone a little bit too far over to the other side. I read some of the threads posted here and it represents just how deeply confused people are.

Ok, I see. Hope trials can take us there. Maybe when people taste what is bad, then will return to good?

 

Isn't it reasonable that when one touched fire, got burned, then change course, not touch fire again? but seems people just do the same thing again and again, almost impulsive

[meerkat stew]

Not going to generalize in this thread other than in respect to my own experience, enough of that going on from several different directions already

 

In my experience, the women I've dated (10-15 relationships lasting past 1.5 months over the last ten years, not counting short flings) tend to have a threshhold point of interest. Once they move beyond that threshhold, they switch directly into heavy pursuit mode, regardless of my level of pursuit. This can be a turn-off, because it seems kind of like a switch instead of a progression that has nothing to do with any of my loveable qualities, but everything to do with some arbitrary "switch" being tripped in the woman. This seems to happen 3-5 weeks after meeting. They are lukewarm at start, then either remain at lukewarm forever, or suddenly go boiling over level hot, and it makes me wonder "what changed so fast?"

 

My interest level is more like a thermometer, growing slowly over time, and beginning to get really hot in the 6-8 month range (before then I don't have the trust level to get super hot about them yet). When things start, my interest level is higher than the woman's, then once the switch is tripped, hers is suddenly much higher than mine in a flash. My attraction level is something like building a house, first the foundation, then the walls, etc. and can have fits and starts, but generally grows in a measured way instead of the rollercoaster attraction levels most women I date display.

 

Then as mine grows slowly, never fast enough for her, at some point (2-3 months) she becomes frustrated and even expresses anger and lots of insecurity that I am not at her level of attraction or devotion in the relationship. She wants 24-7, I do not, she wants indicia of long term commitment, I'm not ready to go there. This causes great tension, and about 50% of the time leads to a breakup. Either they do something obnoxious and I get tired of the constant insecurity and I break up, or they do a faux breakup as a test to see if I pursue and then come back 2 days later apologizing.

 

If things make it to the 6-8 month mark, I think "great we are falling in love together, we can be on the same page finally," but once I show signs that my attraction level is heating to the same level as hers, at that moment, her interest seems to drop significantly, now leaving me more interested and her less interested but still well above lukewarm.

 

The constant mismatch is what gets me. I always have a roller coaster feeling in relationships, every time, and would like to meet someone some day who shares my pace, and interest grows like a thermometer. Haven't found her yet and still looking.

 

Sorry for the length, but the topic is one that makes me want to do some self-examination and reflection, and my experience may be helpful in some small way to others.

[meerkat stew]

It's the wild west out there when it comes to dating.

 

Great analogy, bunch of jimson weed chewing cowpokes and cowgirls, all loaded for bear with six guns blazing under the influence of too much firewater. YEEHAW!

[Lovelybird]

Not going to generalize in this thread other than in respect to my own experience, enough of that going on from several different directions already

 

In my experience, the women I've dated (10-15 relationships lasting past 1.5 months over the last ten years, not counting short flings) tend to have a threshhold point of interest. Once they move beyond that threshhold, they switch directly into heavy pursuit mode, regardless of my level of pursuit. This can be a turn-off, because it seems kind of like a switch instead of a progression that has nothing to do with any of my loveable qualities, but everything to do with some arbitrary "switch" being tripped in the woman. This seems to happen 3-5 weeks after meeting. They are lukewarm at start, then either remain at lukewarm forever, or suddenly go boiling over level hot, and it makes me wonder "what changed so fast?"

 

My interest level is more like a thermometer, growing slowly over time, and beginning to get really hot in the 6-8 month range (before then I don't have the trust level to get super hot about them yet). When things start, my interest level is higher than the woman's, then once the switch is tripped, hers is suddenly much higher than mine in a flash. My attraction level is something like building a house, first the foundation, then the walls, etc. and can have fits and starts, but generally grows in a measured way instead of the rollercoaster attraction levels most women I date display.

 

Then as mine grows slowly, never fast enough for her, at some point (2-3 months) she becomes frustrated and even expresses anger and lots of insecurity that I am not at her level of attraction or devotion in the relationship. She wants 24-7, I do not, she wants indicia of long term commitment, I'm not ready to go there. This causes great tension, and about 50% of the time leads to a breakup. Either they do something obnoxious and I get tired of the constant insecurity and I break up, or they do a faux breakup as a test to see if I pursue and then come back 2 days later apologizing.

 

If things make it to the 6-8 month mark, I think "great we are falling in love together, we can be on the same page finally," but once I show signs that my attraction level is heating to the same level as hers, at that moment, her interest seems to drop significantly, now leaving me more interested and her less interested but still well above lukewarm.

 

The constant mismatch is what gets me. I always have a roller coaster feeling in relationships, every time, and would like to meet someone some day who shares my pace, and interest grows like a thermometer. Haven't found her yet and still looking.

 

Sorry for the length, but the topic is one that makes me want to do some self-examination and reflection, and my experience may be helpful in some small way to others.

Your post did help me to understand male mind

 

It is funny you talk about switch. Thinking about it, in the beginning I was lukewarm, after 4 months, as long as he mentioned sex in the email, not detailed sex, but only common decent discussion about it (long distance), I felt like I have to clearify our relationship, and would ponder if he writes enough emails to me. I guess there are certain things I believe should be limited only in a loving husband & wife relation, or loving couple working toward to marriage. I guess the sex discussion is the trigger.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Lovelybird

[Pizzaman81]

COngrats, you have found the epic trio. Good job! NOT!

 

These should be red flags.

[InspiredbyYou]

Great analogy, bunch of jimson weed chewing cowpokes and cowgirls, all loaded for bear with six guns blazing under the influence of too much firewater. YEEHAW!

 

Something like that....sure! Nomadic wanderers dodging bullets, hiding behind cacti, and passing out wasted in horse troughs.

 

The pursuit mode you described is usually after intimacy is consummated for women and trust is established. The switch happens and the guy becomes the pursued. Some guys freak out here and can't handle not being challenged.

[meerkat stew]

Something like that....sure! Nomadic wanderers dodging bullets, hiding behind cacti, and passing out wasted in horse troughs.

 

There's a good movie script in here somewhere, an extended metaphor between modern dating and the wild west! I swear if I see one more stinker (watched Inglourious Basterds early in the week and was like PLEASE, Quentin, lay off the acid!) I'm gonna start writing movies.

 

Also plowing through LOST season 5 on dvd atm, wow talk about a total stinkbomb! Haven't gotten through one episode without falling asleep.

 

The pursuit mode you described is usually after intimacy is consummated for women and trust is established. The switch happens and the guy becomes the pursued. Some guys freak out here and can't handle not being challenged.

 

Sometimes after intimacy, sometimes not. My view on trust is that it takes quite some time to establish, but that's probably due some to bias from my work. I don't have problems with the challenge or lack thereof, have graduated past cat string theory I like to think, but do get really annoyed with the constant insecurity, as I feel that despite the fact I don't want 24/7, we are having a great time! Have had more women spoil a really good thing early due to insecurity than can count on all fingers.

 

We could be seeing each other 3 times a week, making each other pee our pants laughing, having great sex 3-5 times a week and really "getting" each other, but because they are so over the top for some internal switch reason, it's never enough. I tell them "hey aren't things going great? we are having such fun with each other, yadda yadda" and they seem to agree but as soon as the talk is over it's like business as usual and they are back into "you just don't seem to be into this as much as I am land" with little games and hooks at every juncture. Are there any truly cool people left out in the tumbleweeds who take things at a measured pace?

[Lovelybird]

The problam here is that women build up certain ties with the men in their heart after sex with the man. And this require commitment, but many women deny this now, and proclaim that they can ONLY want sex too, this is twist, not healthy

 

If you want slow pace, then slow pace with sex also. Women aren't wired same as men.

[InspiredbyYou]

There's a good movie script in here somewhere, an extended metaphor between modern dating and the wild west! I swear if I see one more stinker (watched Inglourious Basterds early in the week and was like PLEASE, Quentin, lay off the acid!) I'm gonna start writing movies.

 

Oh I sort of wanted to see that Christoph Walz seems amazing in it. I've only ever liked Reservoir Dogs I actually love that film, the rest of his film seem to be an extension of his neurosis. Pulp fiction included.

 

 

We could be seeing each other 3 times a week, making each other pee our pants laughing, having great sex 3-5 times a week and really "getting" each other, but because they are so over the top for some internal switch reason, it's never enough. I tell them "hey aren't things going great? we are having such fun with each other, yadda yadda" and they seem to agree but as soon as the talk is over it's like business as usual and they are back into "you just don't seem to be into this as much as I am land" with little games and hooks at every juncture. Are there any truly cool people left out in the tumbleweeds who take things at a measured pace?

 

.Oh yeah ok I see what you mean that sounds annoying, too much and why the desperation? That would rock the trust factor for sure. Plus don't these people have a life of their own? How do you even see each other more than three times a week and still hold a job and a personal social life? Well this is exactly what I am talking about, people don't know how to pace themselves and if you are one of those people who does, you are suspected of having issues. I often had this problem with guys though they could not understand how I could be in love with them not still want to go at my own pace, what's the rush? I find that when people do start to rush things you wonder are they really into you or the idea of having a paper cut out of anyone by their side? I was having that problem in my current relationship where I had to flat out ask him is it me that you want or the idea of us?

Edited December 18, 2009 by InspiredbyYou

[meerkat stew]

If you want slow pace, then slow pace with sex also. Women aren't wired same as men.

 

Yeah I know all about oxytocin, and hadn't mentioned it, but I do have a devious little internal calculus of "every orgasm I give her equals more control of the relationship for me" but it isn't as sinister as it sounds, as I'm a very benevolent and laid back dictator and we are talking only 5-10 orgasms a week give or take. And I DO slow the sex down. Women in my age range seem to be insatiable, and I feel at least two of my good relationships messed up over the last 2 years because I wasn't giving them enough sex. 3-5 times a week is apparently not enough for lots of women in my age range, despite the fact that they all say the "haven't had sex in a year" BS from the start (btw if you resort to this line with every new guy, ladies, we know better, just as we know you've been with many more than 3 partners, don't bring these things up if you are going to lie... i never bring prior history up, they always do, then lie... lol).

 

After a point, neither of us is dating anyone else and she has 100% of my attention devoted to relationships, but they just don't seem to understand that until significant water under the bridge and experience with each other, a relationship is only going to be a third or less of my overall life, and so many men and women today make a relationship 75-80% of their entire life from the get go. I will give a relationship a 33% place in life fast, but to boost it up to 50% or higher takes me lots more time (6-8 months) than many women will wait without showing lots of internal stress fractures which then ooze over into stress fractures in the foundation of the relationship generally.

[gopher]

I'm guessing the average age of the boys in here is less than 20 yrs old!

 

I'm 48, so that must skew the average some...

[meerkat stew]

Oh I sort of wanted to see that Christoph Walz seems amazing in it. I've only ever liked Reservoir Dogs I actually love that film, the rest of his film seem to be an extension of his neurosis. Pulp fiction included.

 

Yes, he is awesome, worth the price of admission alone. Compare favorably to Ralph Fiennes in Schindler. Take him out of the movie and it would be down in "Beavis and Butthead make a war movie" land.

 

Plus don't these people have a life of their own?

 

We've been so oversexed and hyper-romanced as a culture that for so many cowboys and indians, their relationship IS their life. People don't seem to have cool hobbies any more (so many of my recent GFs main hobby is pinot grigio LOL)

 

 

you wonder are they really into you or the idea of having a paper cut out of anyone by their side? I was having that problem in my current relationship where I had to flat out ask him is it me that you want or the idea of us?

 

Sounds like you experience the same thing I do from the other side of the corral. In a culture where people marry early, this kind of stuff isn't that big a deal. People start popping babies right out of HS and then their free time is set for quite some time. I think we have too much leisure time on our hands. People have gotten past the 16 hour workdays of the 80s, some people are turning to charismatic religion, others are turning to relationships, to fill their time. While the idea of being someone's personal Jesus is some gratifying, I'm just not up to it We need to "go Amish" and return to the day when a cow needs milking at 4 am out in the cold dark and we are tuckered out by sunset. Ok... not... but we do have too much leisure time generally.

[Lovelybird]

Yeah I know all about oxytocin, and hadn't mentioned it, but I do have a devious little internal calculus of "every orgasm I give her equals more control of the relationship for me" but it isn't as sinister as it sounds, as I'm a very benevolent and laid back dictator and we are talking only 5-10 orgasms a week give or take. And I DO slow the sex down. Women in my age range seem to be insatiable, and I feel at least two of my good relationships messed up over the last 2 years because I wasn't giving them enough sex. 3-5 times a week is apparently not enough for lots of women in my age range, despite the fact that they all say the "haven't had sex in a year" BS from the start (btw if you resort to this line with every new guy, ladies, we know better, just as we know you've been with many more than 3 partners, don't bring these things up if you are going to lie... i never bring prior history up, they always do, then lie... lol).

 

After a point, neither of us is dating anyone else and she has 100% of my attention devoted to relationships, but they just don't seem to understand that until significant water under the bridge and experience with each other, a relationship is only going to be a third or less of my overall life, and so many men and women today make a relationship 75-80% of their entire life from the get go. I will give a relationship a 33% place in life fast, but to boost it up to 50% or higher takes me lots more time (6-8 months) than many women will wait without showing lots of internal stress fractures which then ooze over into stress fractures in the foundation of the relationship generally.

Well, maybe your relationships with them are mainly based on SEX? How about emotional spiritual connection? From tone in your posts, seems you don't have too much deep feelings about them, am I wrong? maybe your relationships are superficially staying in sex level?

 

When women want lots of sex, it could be that they really want deep heart to heart connection. AND one point I agree, one needs to have a substantial life out of the loving relationship.

[InspiredbyYou]

We've been so oversexed and hyper-romanced as a culture that for so many cowboys and indians, their relationship IS their life. People don't seem to have cool hobbies any more (so many of my recent GFs main hobby is pinot grigio LOL)

 

Well no wonder that is the problem right there, you need to find a Grenache girl. lol Funny you brought up the hobby thing I was going to say, people ask about hobbies yet who the heck has time for hobbies anymore? You must be a much better manager of your time then the rest of us because during the week I seem to find very little time to myself, just enough time to fit the standard demands such as work, personal errands, working out/classes, and catching up on nights of lack-less sleep. Add to that if you are taking any night courses, which I do at least for parts of the year due to the nature of my job, and on top of that business travel, and that's all she wrote!

[meerkat stew]

Well, maybe your relationships with them are mainly based on SEX? How about emotional spiritual connection?

 

Reread where I said that we are really enjoying each other in humorous ways and having fun together generally other than sex, you may have missed that.

 

All that stuff is there in spades, or at least we are having mucho fun. One aspect of relationships I have no complaint whatsoever about is the quality of my dates and the chemistry and connection between me and my GFs when we are together nonsexually. Those times are incredible, almost better than the sex. Learned later in life that dinner and a movie make crappy dates, and since then, that aspect has been outstanding. The women I date don't seem to enjoy the fun though, and just get more and more insecure as the feelings deepen as opposed to just giving into nonguilty enjoyment without fear. Maybe we are all too callous, cynical and jaded these days, looking to get hurt instead of taking fun for what it is.

[mem11363]

MS,

This is a very insightful post. There is some ideal level of emotional distance / space from a woman. When you are a bit further away then she wants - she works hard to get you closer. If you get as close or heaven forbid even closer then she wants she stops making any effort or worse avoids you.

 

Some people would say that keeping that distance is playing some game. I simply think of it as an emotional muffler. And yes I use it in my marriage. If I radiate how I feel at full strength that has the opposite of the desired effect. If I muffle a bit of how I feel that absolutely does the trick. After much practice this is not hard - and it makes everything really "work".

 

 

Not going to generalize in this thread other than in respect to my own experience, enough of that going on from several different directions already

 

In my experience, the women I've dated (10-15 relationships lasting past 1.5 months over the last ten years, not counting short flings) tend to have a threshhold point of interest. Once they move beyond that threshhold, they switch directly into heavy pursuit mode, regardless of my level of pursuit. This can be a turn-off, because it seems kind of like a switch instead of a progression that has nothing to do with any of my loveable qualities, but everything to do with some arbitrary "switch" being tripped in the woman. This seems to happen 3-5 weeks after meeting. They are lukewarm at start, then either remain at lukewarm forever, or suddenly go boiling over level hot, and it makes me wonder "what changed so fast?"

 

My interest level is more like a thermometer, growing slowly over time, and beginning to get really hot in the 6-8 month range (before then I don't have the trust level to get super hot about them yet). When things start, my interest level is higher than the woman's, then once the switch is tripped, hers is suddenly much higher than mine in a flash. My attraction level is something like building a house, first the foundation, then the walls, etc. and can have fits and starts, but generally grows in a measured way instead of the rollercoaster attraction levels most women I date display.

 

Then as mine grows slowly, never fast enough for her, at some point (2-3 months) she becomes frustrated and even expresses anger and lots of insecurity that I am not at her level of attraction or devotion in the relationship. She wants 24-7, I do not, she wants indicia of long term commitment, I'm not ready to go there. This causes great tension, and about 50% of the time leads to a breakup. Either they do something obnoxious and I get tired of the constant insecurity and I break up, or they do a faux breakup as a test to see if I pursue and then come back 2 days later apologizing.

 

If things make it to the 6-8 month mark, I think "great we are falling in love together, we can be on the same page finally," but once I show signs that my attraction level is heating to the same level as hers, at that moment, her interest seems to drop significantly, now leaving me more interested and her less interested but still well above lukewarm.

 

The constant mismatch is what gets me. I always have a roller coaster feeling in relationships, every time, and would like to meet someone some day who shares my pace, and interest grows like a thermometer. Haven't found her yet and still looking.

 

Sorry for the length, but the topic is one that makes me want to do some self-examination and reflection, and my experience may be helpful in some small way to others.

[Lovelybird]

Reread where I said that we are really enjoying each other in humorous ways and having fun together generally other than sex, you may have missed that.

 

All that stuff is there in spades, or at least we are having mucho fun. One aspect of relationships I have no complaint whatsoever about is the quality of my dates and the chemistry and connection between me and my GFs when we are together nonsexually. Those times are incredible, almost better than the sex. Learned later in life that dinner and a movie make crappy dates, and since then, that aspect has been outstanding. The women I date don't seem to enjoy the fun though, and just get more and more insecure as the feelings deepen as opposed to just giving into nonguilty enjoyment without fear. Maybe we are all too callous, cynical and jaded these days, looking to get hurt instead of taking fun for what it is.

I believe in most women's hearts, sex = commitment, if having sex without total commitment such as marriage, somewhere down in those women's heart, they know something is wrong, but not obvious to them, and that will play out in one form or another: insecurity, clingy, fear

 

These women aren't honest with themselves. To use sex to attract man is a such bad idea that backfires

[meerkat stew]

yet who the heck has time for hobbies anymore?

 

I count gym and pleasure reading as hobbies, and don't have business travel other than into the city, so am luckier than others, also self-employed helps as does living in the South and in a suburb where less bucks buys more. It's not that I don't have the time to devote more to an early relationship, but need lots of alone, reflection and down time also. I feel this makes me a better partner, but for the women I have dated, quantity, not quality seems to be all that matters.

 

When I was your age, did the 16 hour day thing on Wall St, and that was... interesting... but found it zombifying. No night courses. What field are you in that requires that? I only have to do 12 hours of CLE a year bwahahaha.