Men and women are not enemies!

[Sam Spade]

Cool we have an actual academic, gladly defer to your knowledge of such studies. I've never been able to find any myself, but haven't looked that hard either admittedly. I read this little book called "How to Lie with Statistics" back in the 70s, and haven't been much of a believer in studies since

 

This one is more than 20 years old:

 

Gender and Promotions: Promotion Chances of White Men and Women in Federal White-Collar Employment

Gregory B. Lewis, The Journal of Human Resources, Vol. 21, No. 3 (Summer, 1986), pp. 406-419

 

(Summary: "Using federal personnel records for 1973-82, this paper finds strikingly similar promotion probabilities for white men and women, once a variety of individual characteristics are accounted for.")

Edited December 17, 2009 by Sam Spade

[Lizzie60]

I sleep with the enemy.........

[jerbear]

I sleep with the enemy.........

 

I need more enemies! :lmao:

[Lizzie60]

Who needs a friend when you have such an enemy...

 

I agree with Quank... there is a lot of bashing (men and women)... but I guess this will always be..

[meerkat stew]

I'll be honest, I feel the people, men and women, who hold negative gendered views are all part of 'cooking up problems'.

 

What I was trying to get across in my first post was that any negative views I have about women did not just come about because Suzy wouldn't date me, or because Anita gave a BJ and got a promotion I should have gotten, but from careful observation, over 30+ years, of the problems, and yes, many ways that they have COST me real money, real freedom, real opportunity.

 

In essence, you say those who hold negative gendered views are all part of cooking up problems, and I counter respectfully with exposure to the real problems over many years actually "cooked up" my negative views.

 

I didn't just wake up one day and decide to form a chapter of the "He Man Woman Hater's Club"

 

But I'm not just Debby Downer, I do see signs of women 1. Not being so easily politically manipulated into the victim role by political interests (not fast enough signs but signs nonetheless), and 2. being willing to turn loose of certain favorable social double standards.

 

The progress could be much faster though in light of the massive social benefits women have rapidly (relatively) gained.

Edited December 17, 2009 by meerkat stew

[Kamille]

I'm not saying there aren't issues and problems. I think people on both side of the category encounter issues and problems linked to the role gender plays in our societies, how it's been institutionnalized, etc etc. I'm saying trying to tackle this issues from the perspective that the genders are at war, or 'all men are this' and 'all women are that' is counter-productive.

 

I feel that while, yes, I am a woman, I am also not just a woman. I've worked really hard to get where I am and gain legitimacy in my field. I pride myself on being honest and open-minded. I do not recognize myself in the negative depiction of women that can circulate on this website.

 

Similarly, I do not recognize my guy friends in the negative perception of men that circulate on this website either. they're much more multi-faceted then 'men out to get sex' who only want arm-candy on their arms.

[meerkat stew]

Agreed, but then part of the context is social context and history which make it so some social categories are less likely to run and be selected to run for congressional office.

 

I agree that in the earlier part of the 20th century, there were many absolute blocks of women and others preventing them from say choosing a certain career, running for office, doing certain activities. But since WW2 and Rosie the Riveter, as far as women are concerned (not racial civil rights issues), there really hasn't been any barrier to women doing whatever the heck they want. Yet to hear the factionalized view today, Huey Long is still back in a smoke filled room somewhere "keeping women down" and packing the ballot box in collaboration with some good ole boy network.

[sally4sara]

Beats me where EXACTLY you got the idea that i have ANY issue with women in power ??? I don'g give a rat's ass about my bosses or politicians gender as long as they are competent.

 

What I do have an issue with is cooking up a problem where there is NONE. If you are competent, you will be rewarded - regardless of your genitalia.

 

I agree that mandating an even diversity in most cases is a bad (and even dangerous) idea. The best, most capable person should be recognized over what seems a desire to be more fair. It often is not fair. Orchestrating diversity can reinforce a belief that one cannot navigate without a helping hand. If a person gets a job, but knows it is because they fit an ethnic profile - do they get that sense of accomplishment? I often doubt it. I suspect it has the opposite effect. "Would I have gotten this job if they didn't need my ethnicity slot filled?"

But as a human being and therefore a witness to other human beings, we gravitate towards those who put us at ease and who we most easily identify with. A Hispanic immigrant will likely seek other Hispanic immigrants upon entering a new and unfamiliar city.

 

"The first place you go is to your people" -1968 Black Panther speech

 

So the male boss might feel most at ease entrusting his business to another man. He might know it isn't a rational feeling, but feel it just the same.

A person of color in the US might be interviewing for a nanny for their child. A white woman or a male of any color could make them feel uneasy about how they would treat their child in their absence despite a warm demeanor during the interview.

The female traveler trying to find the hotel she needs to check into, will likely approach another female because it feels safer. She has no reason to believe the woman she asks will know better how to get there than the man standing across the street. Women are not born with a compass in their vagina, but it can feel unsafe to let a man know you are lost and alone.

 

As well, there are cases where I believe women would benefit from the knowledge that they would otherwise, not seek out for social stigma. There was a trade school associated with my high school. In middle school, it was mandatory to take a semester of wood shop each of the three years, 6-8. Why not a mandatory auto mechanics course at the trade school? Thus, hardly any women learned how to maintain their own cars let alone seek occupation in that field. Knowing how to work on a car could save a life depending on the situation.

 

Just some examples of how we, as humans do, can't always be fair even when we say we value fairness. As well, examples of how fairness can perpetuate inequality.

[threebyfate]

This thread is about balancing views and judging individuals on an individual basis.

 

Enmasse negative judgements are hazardous to healthy emotions, hence healthy relationships.

[meerkat stew]

This thread is about balancing views and judging individuals on an individual basis.

 

Enmasse negative judgements are hazardous to healthy emotions, hence healthy relationships.

 

The very first sentence in Kamille's OP was this:

 

"Why are there so many war-of-the-sexes threads on this forum?"

 

and I have tried to answer that question honestly.

[mem11363]

I have a friend would say the exact same thing. Every woman he has dated has been very "expensive." But that is because he always dates women who are way hotter then he is. So he levels the playing field to the degree possible with money - and then complains they are money grubbers.

 

I have dated women like that - luckily for me very few - and many women who were into me because they liked the "package" - looks / personality including ambition. The people who liked me - did not try to squeeze me for more expensive dates/places/etc. By the time I was making any real money I had been married for 10 years and my wife actually didn't really care that much about money - she never has.

 

I do think that very attractive/hot women expect to be with someone who is comparable in some way. Either looks/money or some combo.

 

MS talks about almost always giving big gifts and getting little ones. I believe that says more about his need to date women who weren't that into him as a "man" and I agree those type women take a lot and give very little because really they feel they should be with someone better.

 

Men are doing this more frequently now as women gain a greater percentage of the economic pie.

 

I was only on the other side of this table one time. Dated a girl who really loved me and wanted to marry me. Her family could have and would have plugged me into a serious wall street job immediately. I walked away because I didn't love her and knew I never would.

 

What I was trying to get across in my first post was that any negative views I have about women did not just come about because Suzy wouldn't date me, or because Anita gave a BJ and got a promotion I should have gotten, but from careful observation, over 30+ years, of the problems, and yes, many ways that they have COST me real money, real freedom, real opportunity.

 

In essence, you say those who hold negative gendered views are all part of cooking up problems, and I counter respectfully with exposure to the real problems over many years actually "cooked up" my negative views.

 

I didn't just wake up one day and decide to form a chapter of the "He Man Woman Hater's Club"

 

But I'm not just Debby Downer, I do see signs of women 1. Not being so easily politically manipulated into the victim role by political interests (not fast enough signs but signs nonetheless), and 2. being willing to turn loose of certain favorable social double standards.

 

The progress could be much faster though in light of the massive social benefits women have rapidly (relatively) gained.

[Kamille]

true! And thank for explaining your point of view and pointing out that war-of-the-sexes goes way beyond establishing healthy relationships.

 

I'm quoting the whole first post here: TBF is right in her assessment that it is about judging individuals and avoiding en masse thinking. I don't think this excludes anybody's input thus far however. I just wanted to avoid a thread where we got into a women have this- men have that argument (which would only reify the very binary I was critiquing).

 

Why are there so many war-of-the-sexes threads on this forum?

 

How do people expect to establish healthy relationships if they expect the worst out of the opposite gender?

 

They'll either always be on offensive or defensive mode and never in simple joyful getting to know someone mode.

 

I don't get it. I wish more people enjoyed dating.

 

 

 

I do feel like we've been on topic in trying to see why 'war-of-the-gender' discourses emerge. But also hope the point, that this is a binary way of thinking which erases individual particularities is coming across. We've been able to converse as individual because I have tried, on my part, not to get defensive and to hear your arguments out. I feel that you've done the same. And isn't that the best way to get at the issues?

[threebyfate]

As a more fatalistic approach Kamille, I used to worry that LS was fertile ground for misogynistic, gendercide view convertees. But an old friend once said to me, paraphrased, "the ones who get converted, leaned that way in the first place". I can't argue with that phrase, at all.

 

People who lean towards more balanced views, previous to whatever trauma that brought them here, once they heal and even some of them during their healing process, will continue their thought processes as such.

[gopher]

As a more fatalistic approach Kamille, I used to worry that LS was fertile ground for misogynistic, gendercide view convertees. But an old friend once said to me, paraphrased, "the ones who get converted, leaned that way in the first place". I can't argue with that phrase, at all.

 

People who lean towards more balanced views, previous to whatever trauma that brought them here, once they heal and even some of them during their healing process, will continue their thought processes as such.[/QUOTE]

 

This!!!

 

By it's very nature LS draws people who are having trouble understanding, or have had or are having issues with the opposite sex. Typically, these folks have the strongest opinions regarding the other gender.

[meerkat stew]

MS talks about almost always giving big gifts and getting little ones. I believe that says more about his need to date women who weren't that into him as a "man" and I agree those type women take a lot and give very little because really they feel they should be with someone better.

 

Um, that was in another thread, you are quoting it out of context, but ok. It demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about in this thread, but not in the way you want it to. My claim in that thread was over many GFs have been that I buy them nicer gifts than they buy me. Many of my male friends have experienced this for most of their relationship lives with wives and GFs. I was using this observation as part of a list of double standards, not as a claim of getting the short end of the stick. It highlights double standards, nothing more.

 

So, here we have the crux. It is somehow MY fault (together with every man I know who experiences this pretty much accepted phenomenon) that this happens because despite the fact that mem11363 knows absolutely nothing about me or the women I date, their level of affection for me, or the level of the affection that my friend's wives and GFs have for them, he/she has no problem at all stating that "it's because of my need to date women who aren't into me as a man." Really? really. Want to rethink that statement? Of course not because it's perfectly permissible to shift all blame back onto a man whenever he expresses a concern of any type whatsoever, especially a claim or grievance concerning gender relations.

 

Do I have fault in relationships? Of course. Am I tired of being told, and having other men be told that the entirety of their problems with women or dating are miraculously somehow entirely their own fault? Absolutely.

 

Women and their gender concerns are not treated similarly, not even close.

[Kamille]

By it's very nature LS draws people who are having trouble understanding, or have had or are having issues with the opposite sex. Typically, these folks have the strongest opinions regarding the other gender.

 

Which is precisely why I feel it's helpful to point out that men and women aren't enemies and that a balance approach will yield faster healing-better results.

 

I feel that the gender-at-war mentality is pernicious. Example: if you expect all men to be commitmentphobes, then you approach all men like they need to be 'trapped' into a relationship. You'll be playing games that will most likely turn-off commitment-seeking guys. (Example, not communicating your needs). The only men who will indeed respond positively to these games are commitmentphobes. This, in turn, reinforces the person's idea that all men are commitmentphobes.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Kamille

[Kamille]

I used to worry that LS was fertile ground for misogynistic, gendercide view convertees. But an old friend once said to me, paraphrased, "the ones who get converted, leaned that way in the first place". I can't argue with that phrase, at all.

 

 

I have shared and continue to share the concern, but I've come to realize it isn't up to me to tell people what they should think. I can hold true to my opinions and point out injustices where I see them and that's about all I can do.

 

But I definitely find the gender-war LS discussions to be barren. They feel like both sides just want to argue for arguments sake, which is fine. I'm guess I'm more solution oriented.

[meerkat stew]

I'm guess I'm more solution oriented.

 

I expressed my view of the solution way back in this thread, it was ignored.

 

1. Women need to mature as a gender past being easily manipulated into the victim role by factional political interests.

 

2. Women need to turn loose of the double standards of the past that benefit them, as the double standards that benefited men are long gone.

 

Feel free to add what men can do.

[threebyfate]

Smell the bait, Kamille?

[Kamille]

Smell the bait, Kamille?

 

 

Like I said, I've come to realize it isn't up to me to tell others what they should think or do.

 

Hopefully, others will return the favor .

Edited December 17, 2009 by Kamille

[Kamille]

Feel free to add what men can do.

 

Why would I?

 

My whole point in this thread has been that broad generalizations about gender impede us from actually understanding each other.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with men. In fact, the men in my life have been outstanding.

 

But, by the same token, I don't think there is anything wrong with women. The women in my life are generous, understanding and kind.

[Woggle]

Just look at this Daily Mail article about female cheating and look at the comments. This is what I mean when I say cheating has become an act of feminist rebellion.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1236435/Why-men-forgive-wifes-affair--theyd-expect-YOU-forgive-them.html

[mem11363]

MS,

I read three separate comments you made - first is this pattern of you giving lucrative gifts and getting crummy gifts, second is about other about how women have cost you real money, freedom and opportunities and third is about how attraction is 95 percent visual and the last 5 percent only matters if they have an extremely good/bad personality.

 

It is true that I thought - gee that is odd. I mean if women keep giving you crummy gifts how come you keep giving them lucrative gifts? I am NOT commenting on any individual relationships you have had. I am simply stating that you describe a voluntary pattern of behavior - your behavior - that goes back 30 years - with many data points and you are very unhappy about the outcome. And so I asked a question that I don't think you have answered yet which is why would you do that?

 

As for costing your real money (I think we have established that they do cost you real money however you CHOSE to pay it to them in the form of gifts/etc), freedom and opportunity.

 

So anyhow if you want to tell us how women have taken away your freedom and opportunity I am sure we would be interested in your story - at least I know I would be. Well that is unless it is like the story about how they keep taking - I mean how you keep giving them your money and then complaining about it.

 

And - yeah - in another thread it was all about how attraction is 95% visual. Which is fine - like I said you are just like my friend Stephen - he has money - he ONLY dates hotties - like you he is 95 percent all about how they look and unless they make a racial slur - or do something else outrageous - it is all physical - these are your comments not mine. But they expect him to throw money at them because he is not as hot as they are. Actually he is handsome it is just that he has this GIANT chip on his shoulder that they find unattractive.

 

Don't get me wrong I am visual too - but not to the extent you are and I don't think most guys are. But most guys likely aren't as rich, as charming or nearly as skilled at describing half of humanity in such a delightful, unbiased and upbeat and in depth manner as yourself.

 

 

Um, that was in another thread, you are quoting it out of context, but ok. It demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about in this thread, but not in the way you want it to. My claim in that thread was over many GFs have been that I buy them nicer gifts than they buy me. Many of my male friends have experienced this for most of their relationship lives with wives and GFs. I was using this observation as part of a list of double standards, not as a claim of getting the short end of the stick. It highlights double standards, nothing more.

 

So, here we have the crux. It is somehow MY fault (together with every man I know who experiences this pretty much accepted phenomenon) that this happens because despite the fact that mem11363 knows absolutely nothing about me or the women I date, their level of affection for me, or the level of the affection that my friend's wives and GFs have for them, he/she has no problem at all stating that "it's because of my need to date women who aren't into me as a man." Really? really. Want to rethink that statement? Of course not because it's perfectly permissible to shift all blame back onto a man whenever he expresses a concern of any type whatsoever, especially a claim or grievance concerning gender relations.

 

Do I have fault in relationships? Of course. Am I tired of being told, and having other men be told that the entirety of their problems with women or dating are miraculously somehow entirely their own fault? Absolutely.

 

Women and their gender concerns are not treated similarly, not even close.

[meerkat stew]

MS,

I read three separate comments you made -

 

And because they are from three separate threads, and you don't quote them, sorry, but I stopped reading at the above quote. If you want to make a "let's analyze MS thread" feel free to do so, as I love the attention! but it's not appropriate here, especially without quotes and comments specific to each quote you believe draws to some conclusion.

[temple]

I couldn't agree more with Kamille. I've been in relationships that haven't worked out, some tougher than others, but it hasn't made me bitter and twisted against men... it's rather the situation or compatibility that was the problem. It's rather destructive, thinking that there must be a problem with the other sex in general when the likelihood is, it's probably just one person (or, dare I say it, you!)