Men and women are not enemies!

[Woggle]

In theory I agree with you but right now we do sort of have a gender war. There is a deep rift between men and women and what you see currently on this board and others is a reflection of that. What beta says is 100% true. You have a society which gets mad at a man for looking at porn but women who cheat are justified and get high fives from other women. It's this whole scenario of expecting men to treat women like queens but they can treat us like garbage and we have to just take it. I am sorry but I just can't go for that.

[Kamille]

Are you saying men don't think?

 

 

I was going to write a sarcastic comment, but let's be clear;

 

I'm saying life is much easier when you accept that everyone is different, that some of those differences can be explained through gender differences, but that gender doesn't sum up an entire person.

 

My first bf ever had a tendency to interpret my actions on the 'gender' scale: example: 'you're a woman so you'll be upset if I want to hang out with the boys - and even if you say you're not, I'm going to act like you're impeding my independence.'

 

Granted - Green is right here and there were issues (between his parents) that explained why he mistrusted women. At the same time, it made having a relationship with him really draining. I ended things after one year because I no longer felt like I really existed as an individual in the relationship. Being constantly expected to behave according to some kind of exterior 'biological' rule, and having my actions measured as such, was suffocating. No buddy, I am my own being, capable of thought and understanding.

[Kamille]

If people were honest, and not trying to be something they aren't, then we wouldn't be doing this.

 

But when there's a society that basically says a woman can cheat left and right because she's entitled to find the perfect guy, we've got a problem, because a guy doing that would be labelled a "pig". So long as we treat EVERYONE the same, then there's no longer a problem.

 

I've actually been told that I was being "unreasonable" for expecting my past girlfriends to actually be faithful to me.

 

Well, I certainly do not condone cheating left and right for either gender.

 

But this is a great example of what I mean.

 

Why would a woman feel the need to defend other women's action when they're reprimandable?

And vice-versa, why would a man feel the need to defend another man's action just because they're both men?

 

 

it's this whole scenario of expecting men to treat women like queens but they can treat us like garbage and we have to just take it. I am sorry but I just can't go for that.

 

That's the thing; some women expect to be treated like queens, not all of them. So why paint all women to be the same? Unless a guy wants a 'queen', he can chose to hold out until he finds a woman who treats him with respect. We do exist! Thinking that 'all women expect to be treated like queens' probably makes him feel like he is out of options, and only induces an unnecessary circle of bitterness.

[Woggle]

Women defend actions like this because they view it as payback for the man that cheated on them in the past or their father that cheated on their mother or whatever. Most women do not see men as humans or individuals but as a solid group who need to be punished for the actions of the patriarchy.

[betamanlet]

Well, I certainly do not condone cheating left and right for either gender.

 

But this is a great example of what I mean.

 

Why would a woman feel the need to defend other women's action when they're reprimandable?

And vice-versa, why would a man feel the need to defend another man's action just because they're both men?

 

 

 

 

That's the thing; some women expect to be treated like queens, not all of them. So why paint all women to be the same? Unless a guy wants a 'queen', he can chose to hold out until he finds a woman who treats him with respect. We do exist! Thinking that 'all women expect to be treated like queens' probably makes him feel like he is out of options, and only induces an unnecessary circle of bitterness.

 

 

Also, women tend to blame their problems on the media, or men, saying that they set impossible standards for women, when it is women voluntarily buying into that crap, (the magazines are by gay men) and some seem to care what men actually think. Then these attitudes of entitlement, I don't even know where they come from. But wow.

 

I've had women who were unemployed, living with their parents, telling me I'm not good enough, and I'm a freaking lawyer, I worked my butt off in college, law school, and published, and I'm not good enough for someone who dropped out of college and lives with her mom?

 

Expectations should be realistic. I don't expect or even want a super model. I just want someone who is moderately sane, not obese, and not materialist, and that's virtually impossible to find.

[gopher]

 

I was going to write a sarcastic comment, but let's be clear;

 

I'm saying life is much easier when you accept that everyone is different, that some of those differences can be explained through gender differences, but that gender doesn't sum up an entire person.

 

My first bf ever had a tendency to interpret my actions on the 'gender' scale: example: 'you're a woman so you'll be upset if I want to hang out with the boys - and even if you say you're not, I'm going to act like you're impeding my independence.'

 

Granted - Green is right here and there were issues (between his parents) that explained why he mistrusted women. At the same time, it made having a relationship with him really draining. I ended things after one year because I no longer felt like I really existed as an individual in the relationship. Being constantly expected to behave according to some kind of exterior 'biological' rule, and having my actions measured as such, was suffocating. No buddy, I am my own being, capable of thought and understanding.

 

I think guys think that because it's so prevelant in our relationships. Do all women do this, no! Do some men take advantage of too many guys nights out, yes!

[betamanlet]

Women defend actions like this because they view it as payback for the man that cheated on them in the past or their father that cheated on their mother or whatever. Most women do not see men as humans or individuals but as a solid group who need to be punished for the actions of the patriarchy.

 

 

I personally know of some men who do that too. Not saying it's at all justified, but I know for a fact I have paid the price for my exes' poor prior choices, and the revenge was taken out on me. Every person is different, and should be treated as such. Too bad that's an ideal and not reality.

[meerkat stew]

It started off about why men have this fetish, quickly turned into a Western/American woman bashing thread,

 

It started off about why men have this fetish, and quickly turned into a thread bashing men who prefer Asian women and a thread bashing women at the same time.

 

You kind of forgot the bashing of the men part...

 

Choose truth.

[gopher]

Most threads where women ask men why they prefer one type over another end badly. But than so do threads when short guys ask why they get the short end of the stick...LOL. I can joke because I'm 5' 7" 1/2"

[meerkat stew]

The media is pretty violent in stereotyping many social categories right now

 

The media is pretty violent in stereotyping a few social categories right now. They include: white men generally, white Southern men, white Christian fundamentalists, the Catholic church, and Nazis. Everyone else gets a free pass.

 

Fixed.

 

- but there is still ample diversity in how white masculinity is represented.

 

Yes, there is some truth in this. The hot young guy or leading man is usually portrayed positively (unless he is simultaneously a serial killer or a vampire). That's it as far as positives. For example the middle aged white business man is either a) a sexually harrassing predator, b) a corrupt and venal criminal or mafioso, c) an uncaring genocidal murderer via proliferation of dangerous products, d) a crackpot, e) an ignorant good ole boy, a f) clown, or g) a mere foil for a female character.

 

The graphic media delivers to its primarily female audience (other than sporting events) the images it wants to see, the images it agrees with, leading one to the conclusion that women see ordinary, non sex object men as fitting one of these unsavory roles. This is the very essence of sexism.

 

From Alec Baldwin to John Hamm- there are some pretty interesting portrayals of white men in the media.

 

If by "pretty interesting" you mean "almost universally despicable, buffoonish, or as a female accessory," I agree with you, if otherwise, not so much.

 

This knowledge economy requires more and more workers on the work-force, preferably workers with great communicative skills that you don't have to pay too much. Guess which gender best fits that demographic???

 

Which gender best fits that demographic? Well actually the truthful answer to that is "male and female Asian Indians," as evidenced by the rapid export of many of those jobs, and those jobs don't exactly require high percentile communication skills.

 

Moreover, the false perception that women are better at communication than men needs to go away. It was a tired, invalid notion when it was formulated in the 60s to explain how though women and men are supposedly equal, most women suck at math, or at least refuse to exercise the left brained discipline necessary to master it. It is even more tired and ridiculous in 2009. There are indeed a few subsets of verbal skills in which women tend to outscore men slightly, but any differences instantly dissipate when the overlap of verbal skills and logical reasoning necessary for general competence in communication are factored in.

 

Nice try at subtly sliding the supposed "wage gap" in there. It doesn't exist. Among similarly situated male and female workers who stay in the workforce for the same period and accumulate the same amount of experience, there is no wage gap, none, and there hasn't been for years.

 

I feel that the resentment we displace onto gender is misplaced.

 

I disagree.

 

But how does blaming another group of humans actually help to solve that crisis?

 

I blame women for 1. Continuing to be facilely, emotionally manipulated into a "victim" or "second class citizen" role, that doesn't and hasn't existed for some time, by political interests based on appeals to the female maternal instinct and lust for drama when women should know better rationally, and 2. For continuing to cling to outmoded double standards that benefit women, despite the fact that any double standards unfavorable to women faded out long ago.

 

Mature past those two factors as a gender, and we can talk about beginning to "solve the crisis" as you put it.

[gopher]

The media is pretty violent in stereotyping a few social categories right now. They include: white men generally, white Southern men, white Christian fundamentalists, the Catholic church, and Nazis. Everyone else gets a free pass.

 

Fixed.

 

 

 

Yes, there is some truth in this. The hot young guy or leading man is usually portrayed positively (unless he is simultaneously a serial killer or a vampire). That's it as far as positives. For example the middle aged white business man is either a) a sexually harrassing predator, b) a corrupt and venal criminal or mafioso, c) an uncaring genocidal murderer via proliferation of dangerous products, d) a crackpot, e) an ignorant good ole boy, a f) clown, or g) a mere foil for a female character.

 

The graphic media delivers to its primarily female audience (other than sporting events) the images it wants to see, the images it agrees with, leading one to the conclusion that women see ordinary, non sex object men as fitting one of these unsavory roles. This is the very essence of sexism.

 

 

 

If by "pretty interesting" you mean "almost universally despicable, buffoonish, or as a female accessory," I agree with you, if otherwise, not so much.

 

 

 

Which gender best fits that demographic? Well actually the truthful answer to that is "male and female Asian Indians," as evidenced by the rapid export of many of those jobs, and those jobs don't exactly require high percentile communication skills.

 

Moreover, the false perception that women are better at communication than men needs to go away. It was a tired, invalid notion when it was formulated in the 60s to explain how though women and men are supposedly equal, most women suck at math, or at least refuse to exercise the left brained discipline necessary to master it. It is even more tired and ridiculous in 2009. There are indeed a few subsets of verbal skills in which women tend to outscore men slightly, but any differences instantly dissipate when the overlap of verbal skills and logical reasoning necessary for general competence in communication are factored in.

 

Nice try at subtly sliding the supposed "wage gap" in there. It doesn't exist. Among similarly situated male and female workers who stay in the workforce for the same period and accumulate the same amount of experience, there is no wage gap, none, and there hasn't been for years.

 

 

 

I disagree.

 

 

 

I blame some women for 1. Continuing to be facilely, emotionally manipulated into a "victim" or "second class citizen" role, that doesn't and hasn't existed for some time, by political interests based on appeals to the female maternal instinct and lust for drama when women should know better rationally, and 2. For continuing to cling to outmoded double standards that benefit women, despite the fact that any double standards unfavorable to women faded out long ago.

 

If some women can mature past those two factors, and we can talk about beginning to "solve the crisis" as you put it.

 

Fixed....

 

To think that all women are anything is just as unfair as lumping all of us guys into a category....Come to think of it, that is probably the point that Kamille was trying to get across with this thread.

[Pyro]

In theory I agree with you but right now we do sort of have a gender war. There is a deep rift between men and women and what you see currently on this board and others is a reflection of that. What beta says is 100% true. You have a society which gets mad at a man for looking at porn but women who cheat are justified and get high fives from other women. It's this whole scenario of expecting men to treat women like queens but they can treat us like garbage and we have to just take it. I am sorry but I just can't go for that.

 

Aside from the two women at your work and that other message board you go to, what proof do you have of this besides your own skewed opinion from your negative outlook on life?

[meerkat stew]

Fixed....

 

To think that all women are anything is just as unfair as lumping all of us guys into a category....Come to think of it, that is probably the point that Kamille was trying to get across with this thread.

 

Agreed, we can all safely assume that there is no implicit "all" in front of gripes about the opposite sex that begin with "Men are..." or "Women are...". For example, the last 100 cats I saw have four legs. Whereas I may say, "Cats have four legs," I'm also perfectly aware at the same time that three-legged cats exist, and needn't be expected to qualify every single experiential statement of opinion with "some," "most" etc. When I make a glaring generalization, it is referring to the meat of the bell curve, not outliers... generally... most of the time... on average.

[meerkat stew]

Aside from the two women at your work and that other message board you go to, what proof do you have of this besides your own skewed opinion from your negative outlook on life?

 

Is this the other message board? http://www.womensinfidelity.com/

 

Regardless, there you will find lots of stories describing the type of behavior you are questioning. The woman who wrote that book posits that women band together into groups of cheaters and co-enable each other's behavior while also seeking to initiate new cheaters into the fold. I am aware of no male equivalent (other than the Sopranos maybe )

[IrishCarBomb]

/Rant

 

I read so many threads in the dating section and just think: "Why don't they just stop whining?"

 

You resent women/men? You think the resentment is appropriate?!? Stop dating. Seriously. Why seek the company and attention of the gender that you resent and you feel resents you so much? Since you've stopped dating, I suggest you do not offer advice about something you know nothing about.

 

The pure lack of confidence or self-awareness has become so absurd it is laughable. "The MEDIA says my sexual desires make me a pig!!!" Oh yeah? Since when does any man let the media dictate what he should think? What sort of confident and self-aware man lets such a personal and individual thing as their sexuality become shaken by just what some collective but undefined "media voice" has said? Have some sense of personal identity and confidence. Some of the views by men on this board are making me think that men are in general more delusional nowadays.

 

If half of the advice on this board was true, I must be "ten-feet-tall, a billionaire male-model celebrity professional athlete, and have the world's largest c**k" for my successes in dating. I'd love it if any of that were true, but I'm just a pretty normal guy that has moderate self-confidence and self-awareness. For some reason that has led me into great relationships with fantastic women...

 

But they MUST have been cheating on me left and right, and using me because I paid for dates, or secretly manipulating me to serve their crazy feminazi agenda... right?

 

/Rant over

[Pyro]

Is this the other message board? http://www.womensinfidelity.com/

 

Regardless, there you will find lots of stories describing the type of behavior you are questioning. The woman who wrote that book posits that women band together into groups of cheaters and co-enable each other's behavior while also seeking to initiate new cheaters into the fold. I am aware of no male equivalent (other than the Sopranos maybe )

 

That still accounts for a very small percentage of the entire female gender. If Woggles views on women were even halfway correct, then this world would be a very depressing place.

[threebyfate]

/Rant

 

I read so many threads in the dating section and just think: "Why don't they just stop whining?"

 

You resent women/men? You think the resentment is appropriate?!? Stop dating. Seriously. Why seek the company and attention of the gender that you resent and you feel resents you so much? Since you've stopped dating, I suggest you do not offer advice about something you know nothing about.

 

The pure lack of confidence or self-awareness has become so absurd it is laughable. "The MEDIA says my sexual desires make me a pig!!!" Oh yeah? Since when does any man let the media dictate what he should think? What sort of confident and self-aware man lets such a personal and individual thing as their sexuality become shaken by just what some collective but undefined "media voice" has said? Have some sense of personal identity and confidence. Some of the views by men on this board are making me think that men are in general more delusional nowadays.

 

If half of the advice on this board was true, I must be "ten-feet-tall, a billionaire male-model celebrity professional athlete, and have the world's largest c**k" for my successes in dating. I'd love it if any of that were true, but I'm just a pretty normal guy that has moderate self-confidence and self-awareness. For some reason that has led me into great relationships with fantastic women...

 

But they MUST have been cheating on me left and right, and using me because I paid for dates, or secretly manipulating me to serve their crazy feminazi agenda... right?

 

/Rant over

Agreed!

 

It's not brain surgery to date. Dating is the easiest and most natural thing in the world. Two people find each other and are attracted. They go out. Sometimes it goes further into a relationship, sometimes not. Sometimes they fall in love and other times, not. Sometimes they get married and other times not.

 

There are no guarantees about forever after. Just enjoy life, as it comes. And if you're positive enough, you too will get to cum.

[meerkat stew]

/Rant

I read so many threads in the dating section and just think: "Why don't they just stop whining?"

 

Why don't you start such a thread? you have every right to. Not everyone on the net is a self-appointed arbiter of what others should or shouldn't post, so folks will probably give you the benefit of the doubt in allowing you to express yourself however you like.

 

You think the resentment is appropriate?!? Stop dating. Seriously.

 

I resent the federal government enough to gripe about it, but I'm not out buying fertilizer in bulk or the Anarchist's Cookbook. I resent gas prices, but haven't parked my car. I resent indigestion, and complain about it all the time, but haven't stopped eating mexican food. Need more examples? I wanted to be real clear there for you. Get the point?

 

Why seek the company and attention of the gender that you resent and you feel resents you so much? Since you've stopped dating, I suggest you do not offer advice about something you know nothing about.

 

Dunno if that is directed at me, but I am dating, enjoy the company of women, and have an excellent social life, none of which is contradictory in any way with what I've posted in this thread.

 

The pure lack of confidence or self-awareness has become so absurd it is laughable. "The MEDIA says my sexual desires make me a pig!!!" Oh yeah? Since when does any man let the media dictate what he should think? What sort of confident and self-aware man lets such a personal and individual thing as their sexuality become shaken by just what some collective but undefined "media voice" has said? Have some sense of personal identity and confidence. Some of the views by men on this board are making me think that men are in general more delusional nowadays.

 

"Sexuality become shaken?" Nice straw man. Guess you ignored the entire point of my post where I said that I CAN DEAL WITH CERTAIN BS but not other things. Getting out the crayons and coloring book for you, those media images create and reinforce negative images in both men's and WOMEN'S minds that aggravate the relationships between genders in many ways. Moreover, those media created and reinforced attitudes don't just translate into dating issues, but real world "money out of the pocket" legislation among other quantifiable inequities.

 

If half of the advice on this board was true, I must be "ten-feet-tall, a billionaire male-model celebrity professional athlete, and have the world's largest c**k" for my successes in dating. I'd love it if any of that were true, but I'm just a pretty normal guy that has moderate self-confidence and self-awareness. For some reason that has led me into great relationships with fantastic women...

 

Don't forget to pick up your cookie at the door. Lots of men don't have it so good, but I guess they don't have the right to vent about that or complain at all because IrishCarBomb is getting laid, right?

 

But they MUST have been cheating on me left and right, and using me because I paid for dates, or secretly manipulating me to serve their crazy feminazi agenda... right?

 

/Rant over

 

Man I KNOW YOU! You're that dude at the rally sucking up to women hoping to score with the protesters by espousing their views. How's the ponytail hangin? Get any better playin Kum Ba Yah on the guitar yet? Don't tell me you have started listening to Coldplay too.

[D-Jam]

I think it's easier to attack genders online than in person. Plus I think a lot of the angst is hidden inside and people need a place to vent.

 

Come on, we men have all been rejected for the bad boys/alpha males just as much as women are passed up for the skanks and we all get irked. We've sat there on a date realizing how this person is seeking 1000 reasons to never talk to you again. We've all thought the date or chat went well, only to never get that person on the phone ever again.

 

It's frustrating, and only natural the genders get into conflict about all the BS in dating. Dating has become an institution of BS with all the insanity out there.

 

The key thing though is that BOTH SIDES need to learn to UNDERSTAND ONE ANOTHER. I get more irked at men and women who sit there believing the usual worst case thoughts and condemn whole genders for a few bad apples. I get mad at the women who simply stick to "all men are horny lying pigs" and men who stick to "all women are lying gold digging opportunists". It's counterproductive.

 

The gender war only gets on bigger media because it brings ratings, but also now we have unfair divorce laws, obesity, too many now who taken on the "hookup culture", and shows that tell men to be playas and women to be opportunists/gold diggers.

[Woggle]

Just look at any cheating women thread on this board and see how much sympathy they get. It is not all women but there are certain female cliques that encourage and condone this.

[IrishCarBomb]

post

 

Classic. He takes a general post, internalizes it as a personal attack, critiques it for not being tailored to him, and then attacks the poster.

 

I'm sorry if I hit a nerve. Stop being so sensitive.

 

Cheers.

[gopher]

I think it's easier to attack genders online than in person. Plus I think a lot of the angst is hidden inside and people need a place to vent.

 

Come on, we men have all been rejected for the bad boys/alpha males just as much as women are passed up for the skanks and we all get irked. We've sat there on a date realizing how this person is seeking 1000 reasons to never talk to you again. We've all thought the date or chat went well, only to never get that person on the phone ever again.

 

It's frustrating, and only natural the genders get into conflict about all the BS in dating. Dating has become an institution of BS with all the insanity out there.

 

The key thing though is that BOTH SIDES need to learn to UNDERSTAND ONE ANOTHER. I get more irked at men and women who sit there believing the usual worst case thoughts and condemn whole genders for a few bad apples. I get mad at the women who simply stick to "all men are horny lying pigs" and men who stick to "all women are lying gold digging opportunists". It's counterproductive.

 

The gender war only gets on bigger media because it brings ratings, but also now we have unfair divorce laws, obesity, too many now who taken on the "hookup culture", and shows that tell men to be playas and women to be opportunists/gold diggers.

 

Totally agree!...and that's the whole point of dating, because everyone shows their true colors at some point.

[meerkat stew]

Classic. He takes a general post, internalizes it as a personal attack, critiques it for not being tailored to him, and then attacks the poster.

 

I'm sorry if I hit a nerve. Stop being so sensitive.

 

Cheers.

 

Don't know exactly what all that means, but I'm the only one in the thread really delving into media images of white men, which you "touched" on quite heavy-handedly, and as far as hyper-sensitivity goes, read my other posts, all will become clear. Please don't take my ranting or counter-ranting that personally, it is often mostly humorous. Admittedly, my posts to this thread were a bit preachy.

 

Cheers backatcha

[TheBigQuestion]

Don't know exactly what all that means, but I'm the only one in the thread really delving into media images of white men, which you "touched" on quite heavy-handedly, and as far as hyper-sensitivity goes, read my other posts, all will become clear. Please don't take my ranting or counter-ranting that personally, it is often mostly humorous. Admittedly, my posts to this thread were a bit preachy.

 

Cheers backatcha

 

My only response for you can be summed in a very trite quote:

 

"Do you want some cheese with that whine?"

 

Seriously, I got screwed over this year in a pretty horrible way. I debated posting about it on this board but it would just be too long for anyone to care about. And then after that, my ex-girlfriend all of a sudden decided that I was a bad friend/human being and proceeded to **** talk me to her entire social circle, after nearly 2 years of friendship. I'm still not coming on here with your woe is me attitude, with pointless generalizations about women. As someone who has an average at best history with them, I sympathize very little with what and your fellow chumps (betamanlet, et al) write on this board. Part of what makes a MAN (or a human being in general) is to be able to work towards solutions to problems in their lives. The fact that you spend so much time here complaining just means to me that you haven't exhausted all your possible solutions yet.

 

In short, as I said before, man up or shut up.

[meerkat stew]

I'm still not coming on here with your woe is me attitude, with pointless generalizations about women.

 

Good for you Mr. Internet Tough Man! Be sure to pick up that cookie at the door.

 

I sympathize very little with what and your fellow chumps (betamanlet, et al) write on this board.

 

Your whole post is a transparent excuse to call some guys "chumps" on the internet. Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion Something tells me you probably couldn't get away with that kind of namecalling in real life though.

 

One thing I don't think you will see in many of the chumps' posts here that annoy you so is direct personal attacks and name-calling. But it's cool for you to do it because you're the "anti-chump," right?

 

Part of what makes a MAN (or a human being in general) is to be able to work towards solutions to problems in their lives. The fact that you spend so much time here complaining just means to me that you haven't exhausted all your possible solutions yet.

 

You don't know a thing about me, you don't know for example, that I've been on this board less than a week, and that the reason I'm here at all is that I'm laid up and recovering from a broken tailbone. But keep preaching, man, Hallelujah! I do plenty of preaching myself and don't really mind it... your sermon does need a bit of polish though.

 

In short, as I said before, man up or shut up.

 

I heard you the first time you posted that in a different thread, and resisted posting my hunch that in all likelihood, you aren't exactly the type to stand face-to-face and give a man that advice, are you, so the posturing is some understandable here. But since you have insulted me now for the second time... Viva la Interwebz Gangstas, eh?

Edited December 17, 2009 by meerkat stew