How can he look her in the eye?

[MizFit]

Actually I do agree that the ow's emotions are just as valid to her. For me it is the place of that the emotions come from. There is a cycle to love. Passion though important isn't enough to sustain a relationship. There will be ebbs and flows. What I believe the difference in the bs and the ow, is the ow gets what the mm wants them to see. The ow in my situation got the Mr. Messy that was charming, thoughtful, romantic and funny. I got that to....and as long as did what he deemed was appropriate, I got that.

 

Have you ever noticed that when ow asks for more or isn't as "chipper" as in the beginning, he changes? His lies get more elaborate? It is because the ow starts to take on some of the characteristics of the wife. That isn't what he wants. He wants the carefree side of ow. Wife isn't an octopus so juggling everyday life and the little things(like acknowledging birthdays, births, deaths, graduations, Christmas cards....you know the little things)it is kind of hard to that way. The passion may not be there at the moment, but the love is.

 

So I am asking what is the ow waiting or fighting for. The persona she sees or the person that mm really is. And yes I agree that people who lived together (I have a cousin who was with the guy for over 20 years, they married last summer:)).

 

How cool for your cousin! My mother had a friend who did that as well...they'd lived together for years and he'd proposed a hundred times...finally one Sunday when they were watching television she said 'yes'. He looked at her blankly until she told him what the 'yes' was for.

 

In all fairness I haven't had any experience with OW who have turned like the wives...I can see what you're saying and the logic in it. I do know from my own experiences that my xMM and I had many, many pressures and I know for a fact I saw him at what would have been comparable to his worst. Our situation was very different as well...I had no preconceived notions (buried hopes, but nothing more) and he made no promises.

 

Thanks for your responses...as I've said to so many on this forum, I don't always agree with you, but I respect what you say and it always makes me think outside my own personal box.

[Samantha0905]

I feel like **** thats why I ended things a few weeks ago when I found out he was still giving his W hope.

 

No one can make me feel any worse than I do and this is the reason I'm here, trying to do the right thing.

 

I believe you do feel very badly. Yet, you still want to see him. I understand that feeling.

 

Saying she is weak...no it is HE that is weak and oh the poor wife and that ow...they are both involved with a weak man. Im living this.. ow is in for a ride from hell, wife is too. Wife is in the dark, ow is allowing the mm to get away with a bunch of bs due to feelings for him.. this is just a complete mess. My 2cents... he is the weak one, dont let anyone or his lies tell you any different. He isnt giving her the truth to face her own reality of who her husband really is cuz he is too weak to admit what he is doing and let either of them go!

 

Most definitely, the cheating spouse is the weakest one in the group. The OW/OM is a close runner up.

 

My question is..why do you believe him? Why do you still pine for him? Why do you so hope she would find out and kick him to the curb? Why?

 

How would you feel if you found out all the stuff he has been telling you about his wife was a big fat pack of lies??

 

Because she still has feelings for him.

 

Hopeless4U, this comes from a former other woman who was also hurt, so please don't be offended, but your comments are SO contradictory. You say, "I have come to terms with the xA, and am in the process of moving on", and, recently, "I ended things a few weeks ago", yet you posted today that you were "intimate" with him just last night!!! You are nowhere close to being through with him!

 

Very true.

 

 

He knows how I feel about his W and I even said to him that I hope she finds someone and leaves him as what he is doing is selfish, to everyone. I also said that Friday just proves that as soon as I give in he just falls back to his old ways.

 

 

You are being just as selfish.

 

 

It is always funny to me when WS post that their BS will be destroyed if the WS leaves. This is nothing but the WS ego talking..yes the end of a marriage hurts but people do get over it and this MM's wife is no different.

 

The fact that SHE introduced the idea of a separation...that she is talking about not wasting her life beating a dead marriage says that if he wants to leave, if he wants someone else she is ready to move on.

 

So he wants both.

 

AND he can look her in the eye because he has no character, no conscience, and no integrity. The same reasons he can look you in the eye.

 

Many times the WS finds out and the marriage works itself out. I think when it comes down to having to choose, a MM (especially) will choose his family.

 

It may seem he has no character, no conscience and no integrity -- but I'm sure there's some in there somewhere, unless he's a sociopath. He has created a terrible mess and now can't pull himself away from his addiction. Sometimes people do very bad things -- it doesn't mean they are 100% very bad people. I've met plenty of people in my life who don't really "do" anything bad (that I'm aware of), but their hammer of judgment comes down so hard they might as well be committing a physical act. I've never believed God ranks sin. That wasn't directed at anyone here -- just making a statement.

 

I, unlike some others on here, do not think people involved in an affair are intentionally and deviously planning how to hurt others. Yes, it's a very bad thing. I don't think it makes the people involved in the affair horrible people. Now, the end result is disastrous regardless -- so, take that for what it is. They might as well be entering the affair with that intent, but I don't think they do think it out and that makes sense as an affair is pretty thoughtless.

 

The same reason a W will keep a husband who has done that to her-she loves him and is doing what she can to make it work. The W will go to MC and IC and struggle with visions of sex and intimate moments...the OW will hope and wish and make sure that when she finally gives up it is truly done.

 

At the end of the day you can't say it's ok for a W to want him and an OW not to...and vice versa. If you're in love you'll more than likely fight for it till there's nothing left (in your own views) to fight for.

 

Exactly.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Samantha0905

[DestroyerOfWorlds]

As a WS I have to back Samantha's comments on that. I'd like to think there is a shread of decency in us somewhere. In many other apects of life such as parenting, friendships or just a general over-all view we have be very competent, caring individuals. Unfortunately some of us end up makng a mistake like this and then everything just compounds on top of it until you realize you have made a much bigger mess for everyone involved than you had ever imagined.

 

Now I realize that most of you will just laugh or be appalled at the stupidity of my reasoning here but I ( and I suspect many WS ) didn't set out to hurt or destroy anyones life

 

My life was great, I had a good job, a healthy, happy family and a new child. Everything in my life has always been good and I have always felt very lucky. I am not a religious person but I do believe in a higher power. I always felt that he seemed to take care of me despite myself. When my xAP walked into my life it seemed as though she had been given a rough ride all the way through. I felt so bad for her and wondered why someone like me seemed to be given everything and she had to endure such hardship through her life. They say that everything happens for a reason and I was trying to figure out what had brought her to me. I found myself asking if she was Eve or if she was actually the apple. Did I meet her in order to test my resolve or did I meet her because I was supposed to be there for her and show her what it is like to be loved instead of physically abused and mistreated. I didn't lie ot her and told her that I would never leave my family, and that I wanted to be a stepping stone for her to move on and find somebody better than me. I didn't want her to waste her life \ time with me. I truly did love and care about her and then ended up in the situation where I have now hurt everyone when my intentions were actually supposed to be the opposite. I managed to justify it to myself by reasoning that the good I was doing for the AP balanced out the wrong I was doing against my W.

 

Things didn't turn out that way obviously. We may be completely stupid, a little naive and act in a selfish manner and even be weak natured, but I don't believe the most WS really intend to hurt either their W or the AP...and having genuine feelings of concern for both people ends up handcuffing them into not being able to make a proper, healthy decision.

 

Hopeless - you certainly get my sympathy for both your recent breakdown with this guy and your constant pain over him. I know you've commented on some of my posts so you know that it is still a daily struggle for me over my xAP even after 5 months of NC

Edited December 14, 2009 by DestroyerOfWorlds

[PhoenixRise]

 

It may seem he has no character, no conscience and no integrity -- but I'm sure there's some in there somewhere, unless he's a sociopath. He has created a terrible mess and now can't pull himself away from his addiction. Sometimes people do very bad things -- it doesn't mean they are 100% very bad people. I've met plenty of people in my life who don't really "do" anything bad (that I'm aware of), but their hammer of judgment comes down so hard they might as well be committing a physical act. I've never believed God ranks sin. That wasn't directed at anyone here -- just making a statement.

 

 

You quoted my exact wording in your post but you are not directing you comments at anyone here??

 

OK.. you and the other WS here can tell me how a WS can tell his wife he is unhappy, stay in the marriage after she offers a separation, hear her tell him that she doesn't want to waste her time or his so they should just end it if the M is dead....watch her jump through hoops to make the marriage better....AND continue to screw another woman behind her back. AND Continue to look her in the eye every day????

 

These actions don't give any evidence of integrity, character, or conscience.

 

Not saying this WS will be this person forever. But I am saying that this is who he is NOW.

 

Two things:

 

1. I was answering a specific post that asked a specific question about a specific situation. I was not posting about all WS everywhere in every situation.

 

2. You don't have to be sitting around plotting like Machiavelli for your day to day choices (which you are responsible for regardless of whether you are plotting or not) to cause real damage to another person. AND in the case of infidelity, the WS knows they are causing damage.

[hopeless4u]

you're pretending that you want to stop contact with him but your actions contradict your intentions.

 

when you act in a definitive way with ABSOLUTELY no contact - he will understand that you mean business... in the meantime be consistent with your actions and intentions - you are sending him mixed signals.

 

stop blaming him - you don't HAVE to participate if YOU choose not to.

 

I'm not pretending, I'm just prolonging because I know how much this is going to hurt. This I know, trust me. I know exactly what needs to be done but that doesn't make DOING it any easier.

 

I'm a very strong person and when I make a decision I usually stick with it but with this, well I'm just a mess.

[Hazyhead]

Hopeless, I completely understand your frustration, that he goes back and his wife does not know the truth. I'm going through something very similar, trying to pull away from the destructive affair when the MM's wife does not know. I have moments where I want to tell her. I do. All the anger comes out, and if I'm honest - bitterness, and I want to lash out, I want him to hurt like I hurt. But, it passes, and when it does I'm so sorry for wishing him harm. I know that if I did hurt him in that way I would regret it forever, regret that I'd been the cause of pain for him. If he wants to be at home, or needs to be, he will be. There's nothing more you can do. You can do NC. I'm telling myself the same thing. Sure, it's going to suck. And then I'm sure I'll come here and moan about it, but we have to let go. For our own good if not theirs. Best of luck.

[hopeless4u]

This poor woman! Here she is working on her marriage, desperately trying to help a man who seems despondent and confused, not knowing WHY he is despondent and confused.

 

He says she wouldn't be able to cope? Oh, no, it is HE who can't cope with having an affair (s) and trying to keep a foot in the marriage.

 

I hope she discovers the truth, and kicks his azz to the curb. She is being played, big time, by a fence-sitting cheater.

 

And hopeless4u, so are you. So are you.

 

This is what I've said to him Spark, I told him that I think it is him who couldn't live without his W and he just wants both and his answer was...'maybe you are right'!! but then went on to justify what he is doing!!

 

I know what needs to be done and hopefully I will get there but, no matter what everyone thinks he is...I do love him:o

If I could just switch my feelings off then I wouldn't be here, I could just move on and find someone who deserves ME!!

 

I actually said to him last night that I hope his W finds out and leaves him for someone who can truly love her and give her what she deserves. He is a complete selfish bastard for how he is treating his W.

[Angel1111]

I can understand him lying to his wife because he didn't want to hurt her, but he obviously has no plans to leave his marriage because she handed it to him on a silver platter and he didn't take it. I would've done exactly what you did - end it.

 

It's likely that their marriage won't last but, regardless, he doesn't want to be with you badly enough. That's all you need to know. It might've even been his way of getting you to end the relationship. Men do that stuff all the time when they don't want to end it themselves. They'll just keep pushing the woman until she's had enough. He's obviously gutless so it wouldn't surprise me if that's what he did.

[hopeless4u]

The same reason a W will keep a husband who has done that to her-she loves him and is doing what she can to make it work. The W will go to MC and IC and struggle with visions of sex and intimate moments...the OW will hope and wish and make sure that when she finally gives up it is truly done.

 

At the end of the day you can't say it's ok for a W to want him and an OW not to...and vice versa. If you're in love you'll more than likely fight for it till there's nothing left (in your own views) to fight for.

 

Hey MizFit, hope you're doing ok, stay strong if you can:confused:

 

Totally agree that just holding on till the end is like a natural reaction (even if I know its wrong)

 

I do think that if I let go to soon and he thinks I've given up on him (the look on his face breaks my heart right now) he'll just go back and settle. Then I also know that the only way he can sort his head out is with me out of the picture but the only way to do that is to tell him I don't care!!

 

So messed up!

[hopeless4u]

As a WS I have to back Samantha's comments on that. I'd like to think there is a shread of decency in us somewhere. In many other apects of life such as parenting, friendships or just a general over-all view we have be very competent, caring individuals. Unfortunately some of us end up makng a mistake like this and then everything just compounds on top of it until you realize you have made a much bigger mess for everyone involved than you had ever imagined.

 

Now I realize that most of you will just laugh or be appalled at the stupidity of my reasoning here but I ( and I suspect many WS ) didn't set out to hurt or destroy anyones life

 

My life was great, I had a good job, a healthy, happy family and a new child. Everything in my life has always been good and I have always felt very lucky. I am not a religious person but I do believe in a higher power. I always felt that he seemed to take care of me despite myself. When my xAP walked into my life it seemed as though she had been given a rough ride all the way through. I felt so bad for her and wondered why someone like me seemed to be given everything and she had to endure such hardship through her life. They say that everything happens for a reason and I was trying to figure out what had brought her to me. I found myself asking if she was Eve or if she was actually the apple. Did I meet her in order to test my resolve or did I meet her because I was supposed to be there for her and show her what it is like to be loved instead of physically abused and mistreated. I didn't lie ot her and told her that I would never leave my family, and that I wanted to be a stepping stone for her to move on and find somebody better than me. I didn't want her to waste her life \ time with me. I truly did love and care about her and then ended up in the situation where I have now hurt everyone when my intentions were actually supposed to be the opposite. I managed to justify it to myself by reasoning that the good I was doing for the AP balanced out the wrong I was doing against my W.

 

Things didn't turn out that way obviously. We may be completely stupid, a little naive and act in a selfish manner and even be weak natured, but I don't believe the most WS really intend to hurt either their W or the AP...and having genuine feelings of concern for both people ends up handcuffing them into not being able to make a proper, healthy decision.

 

Hopeless - you certainly get my sympathy for both your recent breakdown with this guy and your constant pain over him. I know you've commented on some of my posts so you know that it is still a daily struggle for me over my xAP even after 5 months of NC

 

 

Hey DOW's, how you doing? Thank you so much for your post, you have know idea how much it means to me hearing from someone who has been in my xMM's situation.

 

I know he isn't a bad person, although what he/we are doing is the lowest of the low. These feelings feel so real and so painful to just stop. I have no idea how you came to the decision in your mind to stay with your W but I think if my xMM could just say to me 'this is whats happening, I'm staying with the W and I want nothing more to do with you' then I could deal with it, I know it would hurt but it would be an end to all the uncertainty.

 

How do we get ourselves in this mess!! Feelings..Bloody Feelings!!

 

Again thank you and I'm sure we stay in touch:)

[hopeless4u]

You quoted my exact wording in your post but you are not directing you comments at anyone here??

 

OK.. you and the other WS here can tell me how a WS can tell his wife he is unhappy, stay in the marriage after she offers a separation, hear her tell him that she doesn't want to waste her time or his so they should just end it if the M is dead....watch her jump through hoops to make the marriage better....AND continue to screw another woman behind her back. AND Continue to look her in the eye every day????

 

These actions don't give any evidence of integrity, character, or conscience.

 

Not saying this WS will be this person forever. But I am saying that this is who he is NOW.

 

Two things:

 

1. I was answering a specific post that asked a specific question about a specific situation. I was not posting about all WS everywhere in every situation.

 

2. You don't have to be sitting around plotting like Machiavelli for your day to day choices (which you are responsible for regardless of whether you are plotting or not) to cause real damage to another person. AND in the case of infidelity, the WS knows they are causing damage.

 

PR, I see what you are saying but both WS's have feelings to offer that help me get my head round stuff.

 

We all (WS/OW/OM) know sometimes we don't deserve sympathy but maybe the benefit of the doubt for being weak and stupid, for feeling true feelings for someone we know we shouldn't feel for and obviously trying to get our heads round 'doing the right thing' even though out hearts don't want to!!

 

Not sure that makes sense but it does in my head!!

[2sunny]

and there are many times that a MM/MW simply doesn't have much of a conscience - so it's easy for them to look them in the eyes and tell them everything they want to hear - just so the MM/MW can still have their own little comfy place to call home - and to present to the world that they are still a great husband/wife/father/mother/friend.

 

bottom line is they are selfish and making sure they have their own comfort zone - while also having whatever it is they want behind everyone's back...

 

meanwhile hurting everyone they pretend to - and that includes the OW/OM that he leads to believe that he is a significant part of her/his life. it is always designed to keep everyone in their proper place for MM/MW to continue on with the betrayal and lies so he/she can still get whatever is wanted. does this not seem selfishly driven?

[hopeless4u]

Hopeless, I completely understand your frustration, that he goes back and his wife does not know the truth. I'm going through something very similar, trying to pull away from the destructive affair when the MM's wife does not know. I have moments where I want to tell her. I do. All the anger comes out, and if I'm honest - bitterness, and I want to lash out, I want him to hurt like I hurt. But, it passes, and when it does I'm so sorry for wishing him harm. I know that if I did hurt him in that way I would regret it forever, regret that I'd been the cause of pain for him. If he wants to be at home, or needs to be, he will be. There's nothing more you can do. You can do NC. I'm telling myself the same thing. Sure, it's going to suck. And then I'm sure I'll come here and moan about it, but we have to let go. For our own good if not theirs. Best of luck.

 

Hey HH, hope you're doing ok.

 

Its all just so frustrating!! 1 minute I want to 'out him' and the next I just want to cry!!

 

I have ended the PA but the EA is still so strong and I know thats the worst side. He is still getting what he needs from me and then going home and getting whet he needs from his W. Although the sex was fantastic, that is not the bond and we both know it!!

 

This has to be the hardest thing I have ever had to do. Sometimes I really don't like him and he says things that just make me want to scream at him (I usually do) but then the heart takes over and I just love him all over again.

 

I am getting stronger and the more I listen to people on here I see things clearer and know its a long and painful road but it needs to be done:(

[skylarblue]

Many times I have tried to put myself in my MM’s W shoes. Things like being looked in the eye and lied to or sleeping next to my H not knowing he just got home from sleeping with someone else. And I can logically feel the pain and devastation, but I can’t materialize it into empathy. It doesn’t bother me to think that MM is lying to W about my existence. He’s not the only person that lies in situations to spare themselves from negative consequence. BUT I COULD NOT and WOULD NOT see him if he and W went to MC. That changes things for me. I’ve actually thought about the situation you described before and it angers me – a H faking his way through MC, wasting money and his W’s time. She probably being the most honest and vulnerable in her life,doing most of the things he has asked to try to improve the M. He breaking down and sobbing like a child, telling her he loves her when she offers for them to end things, and the whole time she’s trusted and believe him when he said no he’d not met anyone. And then he has the nerve to talk bad about her…My whole view of my MM would change. I’d think he was such a scumbag if he did something like that. I wouldn’t even want to be with him and would feel very sorry for the BS.

 

How would she feel?

I’m sure the W would feel hurt, angered, betrayed, confused, gullible, and everything in between, front, and end. As the OW how I’d feel about my MM is “what a sorry f*ckin’ bastard.”

[PhoenixRise]

PR, I see what you are saying but both WS's have feelings to offer that help me get my head round stuff.

 

We all (WS/OW/OM) know sometimes we don't deserve sympathy but maybe the benefit of the doubt for being weak and stupid, for feeling true feelings for someone we know we shouldn't feel for and obviously trying to get our heads round 'doing the right thing' even though out hearts don't want to!!

 

Not sure that makes sense but it does in my head!!

 

 

Hopeless

 

I want you to get all the input you need from anybody who you think can help you. I truly do. I hope somebody says something that helps you. I hope I help you, even if you don't necessarily agree with everything I say.

 

My objection was that instead of offering their answers to your question some posters started bashing my opinion.

 

I am not saying that you or anyone else doesn't deserve sympathy or compassion.

 

Frankly, I don't think I said anything about your MM's behavior that you don't already think (maybe deep down).

[Samantha0905]

You quoted my exact wording in your post but you are not directing you comments at anyone here??

 

OK.. you and the other WS here can tell me how a WS can tell his wife he is unhappy, stay in the marriage after she offers a separation, hear her tell him that she doesn't want to waste her time or his so they should just end it if the M is dead....watch her jump through hoops to make the marriage better....AND continue to screw another woman behind her back. AND Continue to look her in the eye every day????

 

These actions don't give any evidence of integrity, character, or conscience.

 

Not saying this WS will be this person forever. But I am saying that this is who he is NOW.

 

Two things:

 

1. I was answering a specific post that asked a specific question about a specific situation. I was not posting about all WS everywhere in every situation.

 

2. You don't have to be sitting around plotting like Machiavelli for your day to day choices (which you are responsible for regardless of whether you are plotting or not) to cause real damage to another person. AND in the case of infidelity, the WS knows they are causing damage.

 

My goodness you found all sorts of stuff you thought was directed at you, but was not. Sorry if I raised your hackles? I was not posting about you or to you. I've liked your posts as much as I can remember. I do not hold onto all of these posts verbatim and I don't really care who said what. I remember what I can as far as points that were made and post my thoughts.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Samantha0905

[Samantha0905]

2. You don't have to be sitting around plotting like Machiavelli for your day to day choices (which you are responsible for regardless of whether you are plotting or not) to cause real damage to another person. AND in the case of infidelity, the WS knows they are causing damage.

 

So, what was in disagreement as far as my response?

 

"I, unlike some others on here, do not think people involved in an affair are intentionally and deviously planning how to hurt others. Yes, it's a very bad thing. I don't think it makes the people involved in the affair horrible people. Now, the end result is disastrous regardless -- so, take that for what it is. They might as well be entering the affair with that intent, but I don't think they do think it out and that makes sense as an affair is pretty thoughtless."

[Hazyhead]

You're right Hopeless, it does need to be done. In response to your original question... you need to not think about it, as when you do it makes you mad, but at the moment that anger is directed at him, and that is still causing you reason to contact him. If you need to be angry, and you will at times, channel it elsewhere: exercise, cooking or talking to somebody else, but not at him. Let go and don't think about how he can look her in the eye - that's not your concern anymore. Just think about what's best for you.

[PhoenixRise]

My goodness you found all sorts of stuff you thought was directed at you, but was not. Sorry if I raised your hackles? I was not posting about you or to you. I've liked your posts as much as I can remember. I do not hold onto all of these posts verbatim and I don't really care who said what. I remember what I can as far as points that were made and post my thoughts.

 

 

I merely pointed out that you used my exact wording in your post while you were making a point about the "hammer of judgment" even while you said you weren't directing your words at anyone here....No hackles, just an observation.

 

OP Sorry for the TJ.