can a H/W compete with an OW/OM when it comes to an EA/PA

[skylarblue]

Originally Posted by NowhereToHide

I'm a former OW, and I have to say that your posts are getting kind of old. It seems like you are really only out to rub salt in the BS's wounds.

 

Why are you attacking me with your conjecture of my needing to rub salt in the BS's wounds?My post is the thread not to you so why are you making it personal. I guess you missed the parts where I say the W shouldn’t have to compete for her H, I think the W has an unfair disadvantage by not knowing of the A or that I said I think a W should be able to work on her M without the OW in the picture.

Edited December 10, 2009 by skylarblue

[hopeless4u]

Just based on what I've seen. Wives compete very well with OW. I don't hear about many guys leaving a wife for the mistress. I think most men, myself included realize exactly whats going on as it happens. When a woman signs up to be a mistress it typically has nothing to do with the man involved. It makes you feel great for a while, but in the back of your mind you know that it's not about how great you are... it's about how mentally damaged she is.

 

On the other hand... I don't see husbands competing well at all. Whether the wife leaves or not often depends much more on the OM. WW don't seem to be in touch with reality at all... it's all fantasy land until the world starts to crumble.

 

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but are you saying that when a MM has a mistress, he looks down on her because she has accepted the situation? That it is all down to HER faults??

 

But when it's the other way around and it's a MW that cheats it's about the OM being in control and it's still about HER faults??

[Fallen Angel]

Fallen Angel,

you usually have some very good advice/input

 

my problem is that for me, my husband is thousands of KM away right now- I try and send him a few short emails a day that are positive, upbeat, with some funny things in them ( I tell him how the kids are, funny stuff that happened, i try and attach a picture or two, I tell him that I miss him and love him and will be glad when he gets home). I try and send him a box once a week with little gifts in it ( like a few weeks ago, he mentioned that the nights are starting to get cold, so I picked up a nice polar fleece blanket for him to use under his ranger blanket, or I'll get juice crystals to put in his water, he's going to miss winter in Canada this year, so our kids and I made him some paper snowflakes so he could see snow, etc.) .

 

and that's all fine, but when he comes home, and I have to be busy with the kids ( we've got three, two of whom have autism spectrum disorders) and he's looking for some attention and he can get some by "chatting online", what can i do? i can't just drop everything to go "play"- I'd really like to, I really would. I can't just stay online "chatting" for hours and hours every night- I can't just drop everything and go out to dinner or go somewhere on the spur of the moment- but the girl he started seeing could- she's single, no kids, so after work, her responsibilities were done, and she had the time to be able to do things like that. He seemed to hold it against me that i couldn't, and took the fact that I couldn't as an indication that i didn't care, which made him want to spend even more and more time "online" with her, or going for coffee, etc. while I was left behind with our kids. I tried to do nice things for him ( having a nice hot bath and a drink ready for him when he got home if he'd had a bad day, rubbing his back when it was sore, listening to him talk if he'd had a bad day and sympathizing, telling him that i knew he was working hard, trying to make at least one "special " meal a week, joking around with him about stuff, trying to take an interest in things he was interested in, trying to have the time when he came home for lunch be "our time" to talk as the kids were in school so it was quiet and relaxed etc.) But that wasn't enough.

this is what I mean- how can a "wife" or "husband", who in many ways, represents "responsibilities" or "routine" compete with "the other man/woman' who represents "fun" "spontaneity" or "irresponsibility"?

 

I wish I had an answer to that one, I really do, and I am so very sorry that you ever had to go through that. The honest answer is I just don't know. I do not have that kind of carefree life, and so my A is much different as My MM has to deal with the same time constraints on my time as he does with W. Even more so I think, since our time is sometimes limited, and I have young children, while he and W have older children who are much more independant. (One left at home, and that one is a teenager.)

 

I guess there are sometimes when there is nothing that can be done. There are times when a spouse just really doesn't get it that the BS is busting their a$$ all day, and that if they (WS) put forth a little more effort themselves towards the household/family duties, they would free up more time for spontaneity in their M. I am so sorry. I wish I had an answer for you. ((hugs)) I know it hurts, I wish I had the power to undo that hurt, or could give you the answers you seek.

[eeyore1981]

Fallen Angel,

you usually have some very good advice/input

 

my problem is that for me, my husband is thousands of KM away right now- I try and send him a few short emails a day that are positive, upbeat, with some funny things in them ( I tell him how the kids are, funny stuff that happened, i try and attach a picture or two, I tell him that I miss him and love him and will be glad when he gets home). I try and send him a box once a week with little gifts in it ( like a few weeks ago, he mentioned that the nights are starting to get cold, so I picked up a nice polar fleece blanket for him to use under his ranger blanket, or I'll get juice crystals to put in his water, he's going to miss winter in Canada this year, so our kids and I made him some paper snowflakes so he could see snow, etc.) .

 

and that's all fine, but when he comes home, and I have to be busy with the kids ( we've got three, two of whom have autism spectrum disorders) and he's looking for some attention and he can get some by "chatting online", what can i do? i can't just drop everything to go "play"- I'd really like to, I really would. I can't just stay online "chatting" for hours and hours every night- I can't just drop everything and go out to dinner or go somewhere on the spur of the moment- but the girl he started seeing could- she's single, no kids, so after work, her responsibilities were done, and she had the time to be able to do things like that. He seemed to hold it against me that i couldn't, and took the fact that I couldn't as an indication that i didn't care, which made him want to spend even more and more time "online" with her, or going for coffee, etc. while I was left behind with our kids. I tried to do nice things for him ( having a nice hot bath and a drink ready for him when he got home if he'd had a bad day, rubbing his back when it was sore, listening to him talk if he'd had a bad day and sympathizing, telling him that i knew he was working hard, trying to make at least one "special " meal a week, joking around with him about stuff, trying to take an interest in things he was interested in, trying to have the time when he came home for lunch be "our time" to talk as the kids were in school so it was quiet and relaxed etc.) But that wasn't enough.

this is what I mean- how can a "wife" or "husband", who in many ways, represents "responsibilities" or "routine" compete with "the other man/woman' who represents "fun" "spontaneity" or "irresponsibility"?

 

Put your kids in foster care, hire a maid, a cook, and an accountant, and then you can be all the things you think you need to be to keep your H from cheating. :lmao:

 

Seriously, FS, can you not see the issue is not with you? By your reasoning, you have every right and justification to cheat because your H is gone for months at a time, leaving you home alone and neglected. Why are the rules different for you than for him?

 

Something else, while I am all about the OP being in the wrong for screwing around with married people, and is 100% responsible for their actions, I have noticed in your posts you seem to put more of the blame for the A on the OW than on your H. Your H cheated on you, and it doesn't matter what the OW did to 'seduce' him, he still went along with it, he still betrayed you, HE is still 100% responsible for what he did. I don't care how much you kiss his ass, if he doesn't fix what is wrong with him, nothing you do is going to keep him faithful. It's not about you.

[White Flower]

BBM

 

We can just agree to disagree on this point. Having a bad marriage and not having physical and emotional needs met, even after trying everything you can think of to fix it, is not exclusive to cheaters. There are quite a few of us, myself included, who have been through every bit of this and still managed to stay faithful. I've heard time after time by cheaters how they are only human, well, so am I.

 

As far as the competition aspect, I will not now nor ever compete for my H. If he ever strays again, we are done. We 'chose' each other when we said our vows, and I found it insulting shortly after his affair when he told me he chose me. You don't get to keep deciding on who you want after you marry someone. You either want that person, or you end it with them and allow them the same opportunity you are allowing yourself, to find someone else.

 

That's a part of why these people sneak around instead of ending their marriages and then going on with the so-called 'love of their lives'. They are afraid their spouse will find someone better than them, someone who makes them happier than they did, someone who is better sexually than they are, and their fragile little egos can't take it. So they lie, and pretend like all is well, so their spouse will not go out and find someone else just like they did.

 

As far as the OPs, they think they have won something, but they haven't won anything. If their relationship was put out in the open, 99 times out of a hundred, their relationship is over. And they act so surprised, after they have been with a MP 1 year, or 5 years, or however long, and they have convinced themselves they have something special, when the MP is STILL with their spouse.

You don't get to keep deciding on who you want after you marry someone??? I beg to differ. We have free will and we make the decision every single day whether to keep people in our lives or not. It is completely unrealistic to believe in a promise someone made years ago because as we evolve we adjust to the changes and then renegotiate the new reality we have found ourselves in. Understanding this is key to reaching self-actualization.

 

PS. What is BBM?

[White Flower]

Just based on what I've seen. Wives compete very well with OW. I don't hear about many guys leaving a wife for the mistress. I think most men, myself included realize exactly whats going on as it happens. When a woman signs up to be a mistress it typically has nothing to do with the man involved. It makes you feel great for a while, but in the back of your mind you know that it's not about how great you are... it's about how mentally damaged she is.

 

On the other hand... I don't see husbands competing well at all. Whether the wife leaves or not often depends much more on the OM. WW don't seem to be in touch with reality at all... it's all fantasy land until the world starts to crumble.

My goodness do we have a sense of chauvanism here? I feel very sorry for your exOW and I'm pretty sure she's glad she's out of the A with you! Though I am sure there are SOME MM who go for mentally damaged souls in order to get their jollies not all do. Some actually aspire to other fansies such as sexual playtoys (fair game if that's what the OW chooses to be) or even a deep love connection. I've never heard of a MM who actually sought out a mentally damaged OW. I guess you get what you're looking for.

[eeyore1981]

You don't get to keep deciding on who you want after you marry someone??? I beg to differ. We have free will and we make the decision every single day whether to keep people in our lives or not. It is completely unrealistic to believe in a promise someone made years ago because as we evolve we adjust to the changes and then renegotiate the new reality we have found ourselves in. Understanding this is key to reaching self-actualization.

 

PS. What is BBM?

 

BBM is 'bolded by me'.

 

I didn't say you had to keep people in your life. Let me rephrase,

 

It is not okay for a person to enter into a marriage with someone leading that someone to believe they are both agreeing to be with each other and only each other and then decide to be with someone else without telling the someone they married and agreed to be faithful to they were no longer going to abide by that agreement. Or, in other words,

 

If you want to be with somene else, then effing say so and you can go your merry way and be with whoever the hell you want to, but pretend to me we are exclusive while you are out screwing everything that moves, and you better be watching your back.

[PhoenixRise]

You don't get to keep deciding on who you want after you marry someone??? I beg to differ. We have free will and we make the decision every single day whether to keep people in our lives or not. It is completely unrealistic to believe in a promise someone made years ago because as we evolve we adjust to the changes and then renegotiate the new reality we have found ourselves in. Understanding this is key to reaching self-actualization.

 

PS. What is BBM?

 

 

We do have free will but their is a difference in exercising free will and just being selfish. Free will comes with responsiblitiy. With free will you actually MAKE A CHOICE and deal with the consequences. When you are being selfish you avoid making chioices, avoid the consequences and do everything in your power to keep others from having the information they need to fully exercise THEIR free will. Someone exercising free will would tell their spouse they no longer wish to honor the promises they made rather than lie and PRETEND to honor the promises they made.

 

AND there is nothing self actualizing in the lying, betrayal, gaslighting etc that goes into the conducting of an affair.

[PhoenixRise]

Fallen Angel,

you usually have some very good advice/input

 

and that's all fine, but when he comes home, and I have to be busy with the kids ( we've got three, two of whom have autism spectrum disorders) and he's looking for some attention and he can get some by "chatting online", what can i do? i can't just drop everything to go "play"- I'd really like to, I really would. I can't just stay online "chatting" for hours and hours every night- I can't just drop everything and go out to dinner or go somewhere on the spur of the moment- but the girl he started seeing could- she's single, no kids, so after work, her responsibilities were done, and she had the time to be able to do things like that. He seemed to hold it against me that i couldn't, and took the fact that I couldn't as an indication that i didn't care, which made him want to spend even more and more time "online" with her, or going for coffee, etc. while I was left behind with our kids. I tried to do nice things for him ( having a nice hot bath and a drink ready for him when he got home if he'd had a bad day, rubbing his back when it was sore, listening to him talk if he'd had a bad day and sympathizing, telling him that i knew he was working hard, trying to make at least one "special " meal a week, joking around with him about stuff, trying to take an interest in things he was interested in, trying to have the time when he came home for lunch be "our time" to talk as the kids were in school so it was quiet and relaxed etc.) But that wasn't enough.

this is what I mean- how can a "wife" or "husband", who in many ways, represents "responsibilities" or "routine" compete with "the other man/woman' who represents "fun" "spontaneity" or "irresponsibility"?

 

 

frozensprouts

 

Your situation and the actions you need to take may be different because your H is deployed

 

BUT I have to say In general, I think continuing to lavish love and attention on somebody who is actively being a jackass usually doesn't get you what you want.

 

I thinks some of what fallen angel said had merit...in a healthy relationship showing appreciation and making those loving gestures can keep the home fires burning...

 

I think when an affair has happened, the WS has devalued the BS in the worst possible way..when there is a dday and the BS tries to appreciate/be loving/show those loving gestures.... these actions can further devalue the BS in the eyes of the WS because the WS knows he/she doesn't deserve it.

 

Frozensprouts stay strong and try to focus your attention on healing yourself. No matter what happens you need to be whole for yourself and for your children.

[angie2443]

frozensprouts

 

Your situation and the actions you need to take may be different because your H is deployed

 

BUT I have to say In general, I think continuing to lavish love and attention on somebody who is actively being a jackass usually doesn't get you what you want.

 

I thinks some of what fallen angel said had merit...in a healthy relationship showing appreciation and making those loving gestures can keep the home fires burning...

 

I think when an affair has happened, the WS has devalued the BS in the worst possible way..when there is a dday and the BS tries to appreciate/be loving/show those loving gestures.... these actions can further devalue the BS in the eyes of the WS because the WS knows he/she doesn't deserve it.

.

 

I agree with this. I remember bending over backwards in the beginning of my marriage, trying to make sure my H was happy, and loosing myself and his respect in the process. No one in a relationship should be taken care of more than the other person. This creates a huge imbalance in the relationship.

 

frozensprouts, IMO, your husband needs to be doing his share of the work in regards to the children and marriage. You both need to be doing the work together. Then when the work is done, you can both give each other attention. If you're taking care of all the responsibility at home while he looks for attention somewhere else, it will never work.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but are you saying that when a MM has a mistress, he looks down on her because she has accepted the situation? That it is all down to HER faults??

But when it's the other way around and it's a MW that cheats it's about the OM being in control and it's still about HER faults??

 

That's not really what I am implying.

 

You do realize that men and women on average look at sex in a different way...? Right?

 

What I am saying is that during an affair, men are far less likely to have their emotions cloud their judgment.

 

Also, there is a strong tendency for people to affair down. That means more often than not your in an affair with someone who is not as good for you... or as good a person as your spouse.

 

I knew that from the very start. I find most guys do not delude themselves to this fact either. I also see that it is very common for women to not realize this fact until the affair is over.

 

My goodness do we have a sense of chauvanism here? I feel very sorry for your exOW and I'm pretty sure she's glad she's out of the A with you! Though I am sure there are SOME MM who go for mentally damaged souls in order to get their jollies not all do. Some actually aspire to other fansies such as sexual playtoys (fair game if that's what the OW chooses to be) or even a deep love connection. I've never heard of a MM who actually sought out a mentally damaged OW. I guess you get what you're looking for.

 

You should have noticed at some point in your life that there are genetic differences between men and women. Acknowledging those differences does not make one chauvinistic.

 

I do feel sorry for her. Though you should feel sorry for her long suffering H. I think in her head she has always felt she could do better, even though he is probably the nicest guy on the planet. She used to tell me about all the "abusive" things he would do. About 10% of it was true... the rest was her imagination.

 

I'm sure the same is true to a certain degree for you as well. While emotionally engaged those things that irritated you about your H were easily overlooked.... but once that was gone... it seemed horrible and unbearable.

[White Flower]

BBM is 'bolded by me'.

 

I didn't say you had to keep people in your life. Let me rephrase,

 

It is not okay for a person to enter into a marriage with someone leading that someone to believe they are both agreeing to be with each other and only each other and then decide to be with someone else without telling the someone they married and agreed to be faithful to they were no longer going to abide by that agreement. Or, in other words,

 

If you want to be with somene else, then effing say so and you can go your merry way and be with whoever the hell you want to, but pretend to me we are exclusive while you are out screwing everything that moves, and you better be watching your back.

Oh, well then, we agree! That is why I got out of my M.

[White Flower]

We do have free will but their is a difference in exercising free will and just being selfish. Free will comes with responsiblitiy. With free will you actually MAKE A CHOICE and deal with the consequences. When you are being selfish you avoid making chioices, avoid the consequences and do everything in your power to keep others from having the information they need to fully exercise THEIR free will. Someone exercising free will would tell their spouse they no longer wish to honor the promises they made rather than lie and PRETEND to honor the promises they made.

 

AND there is nothing self actualizing in the lying, betrayal, gaslighting etc that goes into the conducting of an affair.

I agree with this as well. S*** or get off the pot. Make a decision and stop gas-lighting. This is what I told MM because if he could do it to her, he could do it to anyone. I hated watching him pretend to be a good H.

 

I do have a problem with forcing someone (with guilt) to honor a promise they made 20 or 30 years ago because we are completely different people later on in life. If you really want honesty as a BS, and you really want him to be forthcoming, don't guilt him into staying because of a promise he made when he was basically a boy. We shouldn't let anyone get married in their early 20s. But that is another rant for another thread.

[PhoenixRise]

I agree with this as well. S*** or get off the pot. Make a decision and stop gas-lighting. This is what I told MM because if he could do it to her, he could do it to anyone. I hated watching him pretend to be a good H.

 

I do have a problem with forcing someone (with guilt) to honor a promise they made 20 or 30 years ago because we are completely different people later on in life. If you really want honesty as a BS, and you really want him to be forthcoming, don't guilt him into staying because of a promise he made when he was basically a boy. We shouldn't let anyone get married in their early 20s. But that is another rant for another thread.

 

 

I think in a situation where someone is staying because they are being "guilted" it indicates more of a weakness in the person claiming to be "guilted" than anything else. AND it is just using "guilt" as a way of avoiding conflict and consequences.

 

If there was true guilt there would be no affair or gaslighting there would be no need for it. AND what good is your "guilt" if you just wallow in it, don't end the affair, don't end the marriage, don't change anything??

 

I truly believe in situations like this..claiming to be guilted is just an excuse for not changing a situation that is working for them.

 

AND I absolutely agree that people often marry way too young...in your 20's you really don't even know yourself and you have no idea how you will grow and change...

[White Flower]

I think in a situation where someone is staying because they are being "guilted" it indicates more of a weakness in the person claiming to be "guilted" than anything else. AND it is just using "guilt" as a way of avoiding conflict and consequences.

 

If there was true guilt there would be no affair or gaslighting there would be no need for it. AND what good is your "guilt" if you just wallow in it, don't end the affair, don't end the marriage, don't change anything??

 

I truly believe in situations like this..claiming to be guilted is just an excuse for not changing a situation that is working for them.

 

AND I absolutely agree that people often marry way too young...in your 20's you really don't even know yourself and you have no idea how you will grow and change...

All very good points!

[White Flower]

I think if you let the AP's actually cohabitate for, say, a couple months, the "competition" would end.

Meaning all feelings would be confirmed or they would find out they can't stand each other? It's a crap shoot if you ask me.

[SimplyBeingLoved]

AND I absolutely agree that people often marry way too young...in your 20's you really don't even know yourself and you have no idea how you will grow and change...

 

I married in my early 30's and I STILL feel like both hubby and I have grown and changed a lot. Growth and change occurs all throughout life. Which is why the "till death" part of vows never sat right with me.

[White Flower]

 

You should have noticed at some point in your life that there are genetic differences between men and women. Acknowledging those differences does not make one chauvinistic.

Oh, I've noticed all right. If you check my posting history I site the Mars/Venus books all the time.

 

I do feel sorry for her. Though you should feel sorry for her long suffering H. I think in her head she has always felt she could do better, even though he is probably the nicest guy on the planet. She used to tell me about all the "abusive" things he would do. About 10% of it was true... the rest was her imagination.

 

I'm sure the same is true to a certain degree for you as well. While emotionally engaged those things that irritated you about your H were easily overlooked.... but once that was gone... it seemed horrible and unbearable.

Not in my case. It was always horrible and unbearable and it was I who was long-suffering. I just needed to get my children to an age where they could accept my D. I always knew I would D shortly after my third child was born because he did something so unbearable I can't even talk about it.

 

I have read the free and poorly written online book called Affairing Down (or something like that) which was written by a Church counselor. He basically wrote about men like himself who 'affaired down' and threw all cheaters into the mix as if they're all carbon copies. My MM tended to 'affair up' if you ask me. All OWs were successful in their own right and considered to be top choice. Well, except for maybe one.

 

Not all cheaters are the same and not all women exaggerate.

 

Apologies to the OP for T/J.

[angie2443]

I have read the free and poorly written online book called Affairing Down (or something like that) which was written by a Church counselor. He basically wrote about men like himself who 'affaired down' and threw all cheaters into the mix as if they're all carbon copies. My MM tended to 'affair up' if you ask me. All OWs were successful in their own right and considered to be top choice. Well, except for maybe one.

 

Not all cheaters are the same and not all women exaggerate.

 

Apologies to the OP for T/J.

 

I don't mind T/Js. I always find it interesting how conversations twist and turn on message boards.

 

Anyways, I just wanted to respond to what you've said about affairing up and affairing down. You've been one of the most respectful posters here, so I'm surprised that you used the term in reference to your own situation. I've seen both BS and OW/OM make comments about how they were better than their competition. It just comes accross to me as an attempt to make themselves feel better in a situation that came be hurtful to a person's self esteem. I see women saying they're better than the BS/OW because they have a career, they are better mother, they are younger, they are better looking, they have more class, etc. I don't know you or the people in your situation. Maybe the MM in this case did affair up. Otherwise, do men and women have to attack each other to make themselves feel better?

[White Flower]

I don't mind T/Js. I always find it interesting how conversations twist and turn on message boards.

 

Anyways, I just wanted to respond to what you've said about affairing up and affairing down. You've been one of the most respectful posters here, so I'm surprised that you used the term in reference to your own situation. I've seen both BS and OW/OM make comments about how they were better than their competition. It just comes accross to me as an attempt to make themselves feel better in a situation that came be hurtful to a person's self esteem. I see women saying they're better than the BS/OW because they have a career, they are better mother, they are younger, they are better looking, they have more class, etc. I don't know you or the people in your situation. Maybe the MM in this case did affair up. Otherwise, do men and women have to attack each other to make themselves feel better?

Oh noooooooo! I think you totally misunderstood my point!

 

I was not comparing MM's W with myself. I was comparing MM with ME. I really don't look at his W as my competition and I don't look at our R as a triangle. He is the one breaking a vow. I do not know her and do not owe her my loyalty.

 

In fact, what I do know of his W is all good. She seems to be a good person, a good mother and W and they were just wrong for each other personality wise and chemically speaking. They are great friends and he thinks of her, sadly, like a sister. He hates hurting her and has terrible guilt over it. I think very highly of her so I would never say I am better than her. I'm way too self aware and real for that!

 

In fact, if you compared pictures of his W and me you'd probably say she had the better body, nice hair, and looked more delicate and ladylike. I am younger, but would never say that was worse or better.

 

MM is a very accomplished and successful man but he sees me as more intelligent (even though he is too), driven, and capable. Knowing him as I do now, I believe he saw a goodness, maybe even an innocence, in me compared to others he had known before me. I think he 'affaired up' (not from W to OW but a step up from his own character) when he chose to persue me because he was intrigued by my innocence and the fact that I turned my gullibility into knowledge and power. I think he needed this.

 

I could never attack anyone just to make myself feel better. But thank you for bringing the misunderstanding to my attention because if you interpreted my post that way then maybe others did too?

[OWoman]

I was reading the thread on emotional affair magic and wondering if a husband or wife could really compete with the time and attention another man or woman could give their spouse. I am thinking of a marraige with children and am aware that having no children could change things. I'm also wondering if knowing the limits of a typical spouse when it comes to giving time, attention, ego strokes, etc. help married people from falling for OW/OM. I hope this makes sense.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Ideally, children should be a "project" that a H and W tackle together, like decorating a home or establishing a garden. It shouldn't be an activity that draws one spouse away from the other, creating resentment and distance. That said, IRL that is seldom the case, and it's pretty easy for kids to become a source of friction within a family rather than a source of togetherness.

 

I must confess, I get a bit weirded out by the glibness with which so many posters on LS trot out "the children must come first", whether discussing why a MM doesn't leave for his OW, or a sexless M, or a BS deciding whether or not to stay with the WS after DDay. IMO there's no "always" about it - I think each situation needs to be looked at on its own merits. Sometimes attending to the children's "needs" can be detrimental in terms of the bigger picture - say, for example, a W elects to drive her kid to soccer practice each day instead of being there to welcome her H home with a cup of tea.... Yes, the kid is being taken care of, but perhaps "the family" isn't, in that the H may feel resentful that he always comes home to an empty house, the W may start to feel bitter that she's always at everyone else's service, and the kid starts to feel entitled to having his every whim catered to and acts out his brattishness, adding further strain. Was that really such a good idea? Might it not have been better for the mother to say, you can sign up for soccer only if you can make a plan to get there that doesn't involve my having to drive you more than once a week; for her to take some time out at the end of the day instead of rushing around to sit and reconnect with her H at the end of his day over a chilled beverage before TOGETHER tackling whatever next things have to be done (supper, homework, etc). But somehow the generational focus has shifted from being (when we were kids) all about the parents, with kids "seen but not heard", to being all about the kids (now that we're parents).

 

Everybody's balance is probably different, but each couple needs to work out their own balance and make sure that their needs (as individuals and as a couple) can get met within whatever family commitments they create or take on, in a long-term sustainable way, otherwise no amount of airbrushing will be able to prevent some kind of ultimate implosion.

[angie2443]

Oh noooooooo! I think you totally misunderstood my point!

?

 

Sorry, my mistake:o. I still don't know if I like the term affairing up/down, but I understand what you were saying now.

[angie2443]

.

 

, a W elects to drive her kid to soccer practice each day instead of being there to welcome her H home with a cup of tea

 

My kids don't play sports yet. Both me and my H want them to be involved in some sort of physical activity when they are old enough because it is healthy for the kids. He would like to be just as active in this part of their lives as I am. I understand that the H and W both need a certain ammount of affection. I know that some parents become over zelous and have their children in too many activities at once. I don't think this is healthy for anyone. At the same time, if a man or woman is so selfish that their going to pout and be upset because their spouse took the kids to their soccer practice and couldn't serve them tea, then maybe they shouldn't have had children in the first place. Both parents should be involved in the children's lives. Both partners in a marriage should do nice things for each other. This idea that the wife should serve her H drinks everytime he comes home from work- is she a wife or a servant?

[Lizzie60]

I have not read the thread, so this could have been said (sorry if it has)

 

My take on:

can a H/W compete with an OW/OM when it comes to an EA/PA

 

I think that if a MM is emotionally attracted to another woman, his W cannot compete with the OW on that level.

 

If the MM is physically attracted to the OW, then the W cannot compete with the sex he gets on the side... but the OW cannot compete on the emotional level.

 

If the MM is both in an EA and PA.. then I'm afraid the W cannot compete on any level.

 

but .. that being said..

 

No one can compete with the kids (in most cases and I'm talking about good fathers)..

[OWoman]

My kids don't play sports yet. Both me and my H want them to be involved in some sort of physical activity when they are old enough because it is healthy for the kids. He would like to be just as active in this part of their lives as I am. I understand that the H and W both need a certain ammount of affection. I know that some parents become over zelous and have their children in too many activities at once. I don't think this is healthy for anyone. At the same time, if a man or woman is so selfish that their going to pout and be upset because their spouse took the kids to their soccer practice and couldn't serve them tea, then maybe they shouldn't have had children in the first place. Both parents should be involved in the children's lives. Both partners in a marriage should do nice things for each other. This idea that the wife should serve her H drinks everytime he comes home from work- is she a wife or a servant?

 

This isn't quite what I meant - or said - but I suppose the alacrity with which it gets twisted into it's most ludicrous version possible does indicate that it has touched a nerve.

 

Rather, the earlier allusion to parents considering whether to have children (or how many to have, or to what extent to foreground them) in the context of their own needs (as individuals, and as a couple) is closer to my point. Most people have kids on autopilot, without giving due consideration to the impact it will have on their lives, and on their M. It's simply assumed that kids are a good thing, and that parenting will come first - usually by one partner more than the other, at which point the resentment creeps in.

 

If both parents are completely happy that the kids come first, no matter what, and are prepared to put their own lives and their M on the back-burner until some pre-determined magical age at which the kids become "independent", great - but that is seldom the case. Usually one parent is more invested in that approach than the other, and the less invested parent starts to resent the fact that the M, and them as a spouse, constantly get shifted to the back of the queue. Similarly, if both parents are M-focused and believe in raising kids to be independent and self-sufficient, that's great - but again, usually one feels more inclined to foreground the kids and that then creates tensions.

 

It's not an either/or - it's a question of balance. Everyone's balance is likely to be in a different place, which is why assumptions can be so dangerous. If spouses communicated and negotiated some kind of compromise around the balance, so that everyone's needs are at least acknowledged and partly met, there'd be less chance of unmet needs simmering into resentment, and then people feeling misunderstood, communication shutting down and vulnerability to outside approaches creeping in.