Author jenifer1972 Posted December 17, 2009 Author Posted December 17, 2009 Well, to sexyNYC I want to say that I believe there is a third reason to have sex and that is to intimately bond with your love partner like you do with no one else. I want this special part of him reserved for me exclusively. Does sex not bond you in a special way to your wife? Do you feel different making love to your wife or just having sex with someone else? My personal feeling is that if you just have sex for "sport" then you have to cut yourself off from deep emotions that even are chemically "wired" into us, based on research about the kind of hormones released by orgasm with a partner. I read some interesting research that said that when men have sex with someone they love vs just their love hand, they actually produce 3 times more oxytocin during the orgasm. Interesting, not the least of which is, how the heck do they do THAT research:laugh:!!
Author jenifer1972 Posted December 17, 2009 Author Posted December 17, 2009 P.S. possibly a good thing, otherwise men would fall in love with their hands given the amount of attention they get. Ha!
carhill Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 OP, some men and women, in general, and people who participate in recreational sex compartmentalize their emotions of bonding from those which result from the pleasure of sex. Some people can do this. Some people are damaged and do it as a result of that damage. Some cannot, no matter how much they try. If I had been able to compartmentalize sex and intimacy, I might still be married, and perhaps even healthily. Your words sound like mine, absent the female perspective of the act. We just aren't wired that way, for recreational sex. Acceptance. Next job is communication and deciding whether you truly are compatible for an intimate LTR. Hope it works out for you
Author jenifer1972 Posted December 17, 2009 Author Posted December 17, 2009 " If I had been able to compartmentalize sex and intimacy, I might still be married, and perhaps even healthily. " Carhill, I am intrigued by this. What do you mean? Also, how do you get a part of someone's post highlighted in a box to respond to?
sxyNYCcpl Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Does sex not bond you in a special way to your wife? Do you feel different making love to your wife or just having sex with someone else? A simple, if somewhat crude answer to your question: There's a difference between f**king, and making love. It may appear to be the same act to an outside observer, but it's not! But Carhill is right, some people can do it and some can't. I'm on the fence as to whether or not I think that's nature or nurture, but regardless some are incapable of handling it.
carhill Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 some people can do it and some can't. I'm on the fence as to whether or not I think that's nature or nurture, but regardless some are incapable of handling it. IME, after MC, I'm still unclear, but am leaning towards more nature than nurture, even though I came from a lifelong monogamous marriage. I've proven the nurture break by being a MM and OM variously, though not PA's, again because of that issue I have with intimacy and sex. The older I get, the more I believe it is an intrinsic personality characteristic, right down to the neural pathways. I've often wanted (intellectually) to have anonymous and/or casual sex, but just can't do it. It doesn't work. Carhill, I am intrigued by this. What do you mean? Also, how do you get a part of someone's post highlighted in a box to respond to? In the 'quick reply' box, click on the little icon at the far right which will bring a pair of quotation codes down, then copy and paste the desired text between the bracketed codes. Alternatively, to quote the entire message, merely check the 'quote message in reply' below the box. It will happen automatically As far as your question, my stbx had issues with emotional intimacy and availability, mainly due to her childhood and, ulitimately, she just couldn't give me 'that', but she was always willing to have sex. If had been able to divorce the dearth of emotion from the sex, I could've continued to have sex with her, securing a modicum of intimacy and thereby continuing the M. Also, I wouldn't have, as a result of losing my sexual desire for her due to lack of intimacy, went looking for emotional intimacy outside of the marriage, which was my contribution to the breakdown of the M. We worked on the issues for over a year in MC and both finally decided enough was enough and are divorcing amicably. She lamented that, if I were a 'normal' guy, things would've perhaps worked out. Perhaps. 'Normal' is not my path, and never has been, which is why I think it's genetic. Hope that helps and I hope you find your answers
sxyNYCcpl Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 IME, after MC, I'm still unclear, but am leaning towards more nature than nurture, even though I came from a lifelong monogamous marriage. I've proven the nurture break by being a MM and OM variously, though not PA's, again because of that issue I have with intimacy and sex. The older I get, the more I believe it is an intrinsic personality characteristic, right down to the neural pathways. I've often wanted (intellectually) to have anonymous and/or casual sex, but just can't do it. It doesn't work. I understand, but the problem is that most of us, you included (and me included) were taught from birth that sex is special, that it is to be reserved ONLY for marriage, that it is to be ONLY for the married couple, behind closed doors, and even then best not do it too often, or enjoy it too much. If we rewind your life back to before that indoctrination started and the lesson instead was that sex is just another recreational activity that is pleasurable, would you still feel the same way? I don't know, and therein lies the quandry, for such a hypothesis cannot be tested, at least until we crack the whole time travel thing (and even then, there's the whole ethical issue of messing with the past and all that).
carhill Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 I have to laugh because my parents never taught me one way or another about how sex should be, other than by the example of their marriage. I did get some sex education in school, and some of that did include teaching that sex was a special expression of intimacy, but most kids weren't paying any attention to that stuff so my peer group, if anything, was pushing me towards recreational sex and, at that time, during the 70's, drugs. I have no concrete idea why I didn't pursue either or both. I certainly would have 'fit in' better if I had. It wasn't until going to MC many decades later that I began to understand the concept of paths and compatibility and that neither perspective about sex and intimacy was right nor wrong, but merely different, as both can occur within and result from healthy relationships. It's purely a function of how the partners interact being compatible and mutually pleasurable. Most of the women I had intimate relations with had far higher partner numbers, and my stbx certainly did, but that never bothered me, since, for me, sex was an expression of who I was and I didn't examine too closely what their motivations were and generally accepted that we're all different in that regard. OP, is this helping you at all?
boogieboy Posted December 17, 2009 Posted December 17, 2009 Jennifer, I see something in your original post that no one else has mentioned. YOu said that sometimes he doesnt have sex with you because he "needs to save himself". That sounds to me like he doesnt want to have sex with you at that time. If thats the case, it will only get worse. His player urges havent left him yet. He is talking to ex's and fantasizing women in pictures - I cant tell you whats going on in his head with keeping pictures - but I sense a timebomb. I'm sure that he loves you dearly, and enjoys you as a person, but it sounds to me like he is bored sexually if he is denying YOU sex. He might actually not be satisfied with one person anymore. He's always been looking at pics on the net, you cant change that... But it looks to me like talking to ex's and looking at pictures so far is keeping him faithful...but who knows how long that will last. I think he wanted to settle down with one woman, but he trained himself to not be satisfied with one woman, you cant exactly untrain that. Forget about his internet habits, and see if you can have a frank discussion with him about if he is truly satisfied with you sexually, and if he wants a younger woman. From what you said, his actions do not deny this.
SincereOnlineGuy Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 To answer another question, I think the reason most women react to SECRET porn and pictures, is we are jealous creatures, and we don't care much for sharing men in any way with other women. By all means, react to the "secret" aspect of that or any other "secret" elements of your husband's life. But I think it would be most productive to strive to eliminate his motivation to be secretive about his porn consumption. For that you have to boldly dare to allow much of the porn viewing, and initiate a shared dialog with him on the subject and on various individuals pictured. You want and need to be/seem more comfortable with yourself and with your marriage, not less comfortable... Even if you have to fake-it with a bold front and lots of fear under the mask, you could learn and understand so much more as the result of participating than you could from pouting in silence. It really IS up to you.
Author jenifer1972 Posted December 18, 2009 Author Posted December 18, 2009 To answer Carhill's question, yes I am finding this very helpful. I need to get guys' perspectives, because my brain is so different that I need that feedback. Regarding nature vs nurture, here is an interesting theory. John Money from Johns Hopkins has a theory that we all develop "love maps", essentially an emotional and mental "grid" that we lay down, based on what we experience growing up, from about the time we are 5, that influences how we look at sex and love.. I think of it that our personalities are a "tapestry" and various threads get woven into our personalities, and later in life it is very difficult to "pull these tight threads out". Because I grew up in an extremely rigid family, even though I have been able to shed many of the monkeys that were on my back, it is difficult to get rid of some of the "messages". What Boogie boy said is a great fear of mine. When he begs off of sex with me, and then I find out he was surfing porn that day, that just tells me he just didn't want sex with ME. Am I being too black and white about that, or is he just looking for quick relaxation with no effort.? I think he is so habituated to porn he can't do without it. I have asked him point blank on several, at least 5 occasions, if he isn't bored with just me, and that I wonder if he misses his "schmorgasbord". I also have said that while I am beautiful, I am not 25 any more, and does that matter, and does he think about younger women? He says he notices them, but would never act on it and jeopradize what we have. (And we have a lot. A very good life, much fun together, similar sense of humor, life outlook, lots of travel, money, etc.) He adamantly says no, but I think he would say that regardless. I think he truly is in love with me and is trying to curb his wild side but that it slips out occasionally. I have even asked him if he wants a threesome like he had before. He says, oh no, but don't know if that is genuine. I sometimes wonder if at some point I should bring this up more. I honestly would rather do that than lose him. I know, I hear the howls of "you could never pull that off, are you nuts!? " I know, I know.. To online guy, I do allow a lot of porn that we watch together. I have told him that I am not going to confront the porn thing anymore, and if he feels he needs to watch it alone, then so be it, I give up. I honestly was coming to grips with this when I found the picture in the storage file, and that just set me into a spiral of worry.
sxyNYCcpl Posted December 18, 2009 Posted December 18, 2009 Regarding nature vs nurture, here is an interesting theory. John Money from Johns Hopkins has a theory that we all develop "love maps", essentially an emotional and mental "grid" that we lay down, based on what we experience growing up, from about the time we are 5, that influences how we look at sex and love.. I think of it that our personalities are a "tapestry" and various threads get woven into our personalities, and later in life it is very difficult to "pull these tight threads out". Because I grew up in an extremely rigid family, even though I have been able to shed many of the monkeys that were on my back, it is difficult to get rid of some of the "messages". I don't know what it says about your theory, but I, too, was raised in a sexually rigid family. Sex was for marriage, ONLY. Behind closed doors, ONLY. No premarital sex was acceptable, nothing kinky was acceptable. And yet, not only early in life did I disregard those instructions, as I got older I realized that the sex life I desired was diametrically opposed to that, and that what I desired is, in fact, available. Now, it's also true that I went off to military school and then the genuine military, which of course could have affected my outlook, but the fact remains that my foundational lessons were quite similar to yours. What that means, I know not. When he begs off of sex with me, and then I find out he was surfing porn that day, that just tells me he just didn't want sex with ME. Am I being too black and white about that, or is he just looking for quick relaxation with no effort.? Possible. It's also possible that at 40-something he lacks the testosterone to rub one out and have sex in the same day. Possibly he just is incapable of getting it up twice in one day. It's true that it's selfish to masturbate in lieu of taking care of your lover, but sometimes people make assumptions (like, it's okay if I do it today, as there's no way she's gonna be interested tonight) that prove to be false. Not saying that's the case, only that it's possible. I have even asked him if he wants a threesome like he had before. He says, oh no, but don't know if that is genuine. I sometimes wonder if at some point I should bring this up more. I honestly would rather do that than lose him. I know, I hear the howls of "you could never pull that off, are you nuts!? " I know, I know.. Given my proclivities, I'd be the last one to say having a threesome is a bad thing. (As an ironic aside, we've never had a threesome.... 4-somes, 6-, 8-. 40-, and everything in between but never exactly 3.) That said, from what I know about you I'm not sure it's something that you are up for. If I'm wrong, then you go, girl! But it could lead to problems if it's not something you are genuinely up for.
Author jenifer1972 Posted December 21, 2009 Author Posted December 21, 2009 To sexyNYC, I would say that you were very much a product of your home. The grid is how you choose to interpret what you grow up with, and you totally said, this is bs, and I reject it all, thus your family experience very much influenced who you became. ..IMHO For me, I outright rejected alot I grew up with too, but some of the messages were very strong. For example, neither of my parents finished HS, they didn't like doctors, and I almost had kidney damage because my mom didn't take me to the doctor in a timely fashion when I had strep throat. So, guess what, I not only moved 3000 miles away and went to college, I became a DOCTOR. Now, that is the total opposite of my parents, but very much influenced by their behavior. On the other hand, my father was very shaming of my emerging sexuality, and unfortunately, he also beat me with a leather strap fairly frequently, so severly I could not sleep on my back for basically doing anything he didn't like, which didn't take much. He wouldn't let me work part time to get more independent of him when I was a teenager, so I was basically trapped on the farm. He scared off all the guys who were interested in me, and they were afraid of him. I was afraid of him too. For the littlest things, like some guy giving me attention whom he didn't like, he would threaten to pull my college funding. He actually had one of my boyfriends "investigated." Thank God, I was able to complete my degree and get away, but unfortunately, I married someone at age 22 who would meet his approval, and that was a misery - my ex was in so many ways like my dad- big surprise? NOT! Anyway, so I guess my point is, in many ways I have shaken off my upbringing, but in other ways, it is difficult, so dialoguing with guys who see things differently helps me do reality checks. So I guess, no surprise that my next husband would be a bad boy??
sxyNYCcpl Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 Very interesting post, Jen. Basically you are asking me if you can handle a "bad boy" who has a very different outlook on sexuality than you do. It's possible, but frankly, I doubt it. I mean, picture this scenario. You're at a party. It's a "normal" party, everybody is drinking and chatting, and dancing, and having a good time. And then you look around, and everyone is f**king. To your left is a couple, to your right is a threesome, behind you is a fourway. Then you get propositioned to have sex with a man (or woman) who's name you don't even know. Are you up for that scene? Cause that's definitely my scene, and while I can't say it's your mans scene, if he's REALLY like me, it is. So, guess what, I not only moved 3000 miles away and went to college, I became a DOCTOR. Now, that is the total opposite of my parents, but very much influenced by their behavior. Congrats to you, you done good. I hope you are rewarded both personally, but also economically as well as professionally. Now let's talk about this spot I have on my leg.... On the other hand, my father was very shaming of my emerging sexuality, and unfortunately, he also beat me with a leather strap fairly frequently, so severly I could not sleep on my back for basically doing anything he didn't like, which didn't take much. Clearly, your fathers influence, regardless of well intentioned or not, has had an effect on you. I am sorry that he treated you in such a way, it's truly a shame. That said, I wonder how much his past behavior has on your present behavior. More than a little, it seems. Anyway, so I guess my point is, in many ways I have shaken off my upbringing, but in other ways, it is difficult, so dialoguing with guys who see things differently helps me do reality checks. So I guess, no surprise that my next husband would be a bad boy?? Perhaps. But, given your background, it may not be so much that you're selecting a "bad boy" who wouldn't meet daddy's approval, but perhaps you are questioning the very lessons he had for you in the first place? Going back to your earlier post, if that is true then perhaps your suggestion of giving your man a threesome (because the ideas of fidelity you were taught were BS) might be a good idea, but on the other hand, have you really rejected the fundamental sexual lessons you were taught? Because if you haven't, sharing your man with another women, even if she only observes, will only lead to heartache. Food for thought.
Author jenifer1972 Posted December 21, 2009 Author Posted December 21, 2009 No, there is no way I could do your scene. Interesting that you could come from a rigid background and go that far the other way. But you are a guy, and I think it is easier for guys. My husband did a threesome, and he had several girlfriends at one time, many ONS, before we dated, but not more than that. He has no hangups which is great for someone like me, growing up around more hangups than a coat locker.! He lets things roll off his back, he accepts what life throws at him, believes you have to adapt to what is handed to by life, never engages in "why?" thinking. Amazing to me. His family is very free and gave him a lot of latitude growing up. I really enjoy being with them, so opposite of my home. So in so many ways, he makes me feel free and young, but I think of course there is always another side of the coin. We are best friends, and I hope that the great friendship we have will be the voice of reason to him if he is ever tempted to act on anything without me. I could open my mind to a lot with him, but I could not tolerate anything with another women behind my back. Does your wife or you ever go off alone with anyone else? That I could never ever tolerate.
sxyNYCcpl Posted December 21, 2009 Posted December 21, 2009 I could not tolerate anything with another women behind my back. Does your wife or you ever go off alone with anyone else? That I could never ever tolerate. No, it's a team sport and nothing ever happens behind anyones back. It's not so anal that if one of us has to get up to use the rest room the other must stop whatever they're doing, but we play together only.
Author jenifer1972 Posted December 23, 2009 Author Posted December 23, 2009 Thank you to everyone who took the time to consider and respond to my posts. I guess I had secretly hoped that after laying it all out there, everyone would say there was no need for concern, but there appears to be some warning signs for me that my dear husband may be having trouble leaving his wild past behind him. I hopefully will be able to dialogue with him more, but it is difficult, because he clams up, but I think I need to talk to him more about whether he is as seriously tempted as his internet proclivities would suggest....
IllMan Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 Jenifer(OP!)- I'm not sure how to respond to your OP, and to the bits you've shared since then. First, I can understand your confusion. We are all influenced by our friends, or past, and our exposure to the sexual side of society. Based on your original post, I would guess your newlywed partner can't feel he can express himself fully for you. I say so, because some of what I have to say here I know I could never say to my wife. It's to hard. It's to selfish, self central pointing, that it seem to go against what a marriage means to me personally. You comment that your concerned over his volume of porn viewing. First let me say I struggle with my online porn viewing. I know it's damaging, and I am trying to limit the time/amount I look at day by day. Some weeks are better then others (I think 4 days is my longest stretch). When I visit a porn site I open spend the first ten minutes flying down the main page using the 'Open in a new Tab' feature. After the first page is done, I click next page, and go check out what I've selected. So in about 30 minutes of surfing I probably open up 30 actual videos, discard the ones that aren't all that interesting, and 'watch' 5-10. If one really turns me on I feel compelled to save it, but I never go back to watch it. I would hazard the porn watching is the same for your spouse. He's channel surfing porn, which is something I am going to ASSUME you both do not do together. Solo heaven would be for a guy to porn surf while getting a BJ under the desk. Theres mental satisfaction over getting mental eye candy like crazy, while getting some action with NO WORK required (Real sex requires work - physically, and mentally). Just like rubbing one out. Is this a concern? I think not. A few talks with some close friends reveals that they all porn surf. But thats about as far as it goes. You mention his involvement is obtaining accounts on meeting sites? Like Ashley Madison? I used to have an account there, I've since deleted it when I decided to work on my marriage. Theres no other thrill like seeing a video or picture from someone you know is just out of touch. Mental images are not of caressing or 'just sex'. Normally it's more animal lust. their animal lust. If they are into having someone, literally, suck on their eyebrow. Thats what they are imagining - not how you might find that unfulfilling or desireable. They could care less. It's all mental self satisfaction. Knowing that someone is REAL, and that it COULD happen is a rush. It's like fantasizing about a neighbor or co-worker. It's nice, but when they start flirting or hinting back, RUSH RUSH RUSH - nice then becomes N_I_C_E. Concern? I would say this is a flag. More and more involvement with these sites builds boldness, curiosity, and promotes actual contact. Usually online contact. Flirting is one thing, online contact for fulfillment is bad. One last thing you mentioned was him needing to hold back, to save himself. When he saves himself does he perform like a stallion the next day? Or the next next day? Sex is more intense when we guys allow ourselves to get aroused and not have a release until later. Self satisfying every day is nice, but waiting for three days is NICE. I hope this is what he is doing. I feel you should know that guys also save themselves so they can get the most out of a meeting with someone. Taking the online contact to the next step is adrenaline pumping. I've been there. In the parking lot, trying not to sweat, having saved myself for days so I could have a helluva good time. I never did it though. I couldn't. To much fear. For myself. My wife. My family. I had the gut check WTF am I DOING. Besides, I was sweating like a pig. So when I see somene 'saving' themselves. Thats what comes to mind. Waiting to be a STUD . If it's for you, then good. IF not ... Then saving for what? It could be alot of things (Maybe he loves the volume he can create?) so don't try to get too worried, but ... I would worry. A little. Ultimately I think your newlywed got used to chasing skirts, and is having a hard time trying to stop looking, wondering, chasing... He's with you because he does love you. you love him. You can help him. Request him to remove his accounts from the 'real women' sites. They are a danger. Tell him porn tube watching is fine. Tell him there is no reason to save it, or download any. Ask him if he has fantasies? Consider wearing a wig, obtaining outfits and role playing, or if he needs a different feel consider getting a fleshlight 6-pack (I keep meaning to check them out, but it never seems to happen) and use it on him creatively. I would hop the more you open up to him, he will in turn open up more to you, and you can redirect some of his sexual mental needs towards yourself. You also need to make sure you draw the line in the sand what you cannot accept (other woman, etc), and what your not interested in now, but may be later. Sorry for the length!
IllMan Posted January 27, 2010 Posted January 27, 2010 Sorry - just wanted to point out I specifically used the term newlywed. He chose to be with you for a reason. Try to keep that mind when trying to understand his behavior, and to those reading, keep that in mind also.
Author jenifer1972 Posted February 5, 2010 Author Posted February 5, 2010 Thank you for your thoughtful post Illman. What I like about you is how you really give play by play of what is going on in a guy's brain. What he means by "saving himself" is, he doesn't want to have sex every day, he wants a day off so he can have more stamina the next, but then I noted on the day "off" he was surfing porn, so in my mind, he wasn't saving himself, was he? We have talked again since I last posted, and he says sometimes he just wants a quick solo session that requires no effort because he gets up much earlier than I do and doesn't want to go to work with a morning "problem". And I think that is a big part of it right? No effort required to make sure your partner is getting anything. I can live with that, but I really don't like to see a history of 13 porn videos on a day when I have made myself available. And we do watch porn together, so it's not like he needs to sneak it really. REgarding sites, he set up a fake profile on ALT.com when we were engaged. That really set me off, but it was totally not real, not even the state we live in, and he said he just wanted to see more of the site - whatever, I think part of him is still a wh.... hunter...but only in his mind. Anyway, I do think that part of the problem is his playboy past. I know he adores me, but there HAS to be a part of him that still is that lustful hunter....That is the part I know I need to come to grips with and deal with...
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