HeyThere Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 (edited) Married for over twenty years to a wonderful, caring, loving partner, great mom, very romantic, however sex is very low on the priorty list. Been to sex therapist, suggested books (Nancy Friday) and talk all to no avail. I know this is how she is wired, but still feel cramped. Please help! Edited December 5, 2009 by a LoveShack.org Moderator heading
JackJack Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 So, her low sex drive has always been like this? OR It has all of a sudden come to a halt and you do not know why?
mem11363 Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 Read Mating in Captivity The basic gist of it is this. You need to make yourself more attractive and less available. More attractive might mean: - Start going to the gym - if you already do cardio - add in strength training - Find a new hobby that you do without your wife - something that is fun - Work on being more positive/optimistic Less available means just that - be home less or certainly available to your wife less. If you have been bombarding her with all variants of the 5 love languages you are making the sex situation worse. She knows you love her. All that stuff just looks like a lame attempt to get more sex from someone who is turned off. She needs to feel you emotionally stepping back at some level. If you have been telling her you would never leave her over this issue you need to stop saying that as well since it makes you look like the ultimate safe play. Women like adventure and risk. They don't want a guy who is constantly saying "I love you" even when they are treating him poorly. It is ironic how every guy who posts about being in a low sex/sexless marriage talks about how loving his wife is. There is nothing loving/compassionate about a wife ignoring her spouse's most basic need (physical love/sex) to feel loved. If you were treating her core need(s) with the indifference she is treating yours, she would be on here posting about what a crappy husband you are and asking if she should go to MC or divorce you. And a standard general purpose marriage counselor likely cannot help you. The basic flavor of mating in captivity is that if she feels you emotionally deprioritizing her because you have these new interests you are putting ahead of her, it may well wake her libido up. Because women have an underlying instinct to compete for your attention using their sexuality. So she may try to compete with other legitimate interests - in a healthy way - and you both come out ahead. If you keep talking/to about your wife with all these superlatives - while she is starving you of love - you will stay in the pit of celibacy where most betas eventually end up. If her loss of interest was sudden, it might have been triggered by an affair. Married for over twenty years to a wonderful, caring, loving partner, great mom, very romantic, however sex is very low on the priorty list. Been to sex therapist, suggested books (Nancy Friday) and talk all to no avail. I know this is how she is wired, but still feel cramped. Please help!
Blindsidedagainalive Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 He has the same issue I hear over and over. He expressed this issue with his wife. Suggested counceling. Went to counceling......to no avail. She just would rather get a facial or shop. She doesn't seem to think this is a big deal. IT's a HUGE deal for him....and he is strongly considering ending the marriage. It's so sad because they are a great couple otherwise. IMHO, if sex between partners take that much work, it probably will not improve. Though effort, it MAY improve...but often it's temporary. Over time, it typically returns to the former way. You may consider the other posters suggestion....but I don't think it's effective for many relationships. The friend I referred to, lives his life as the other poster suggested.... So do many friends of mine with the same problem. They go to the gym and have healthy hobbies. But his wife, like many, would RESENT that behavior more. Especially if their perception is that you already do not have good quality time. You cannot fix another persons self image problems with a change in your behaviour.
You Go Girl Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 Well, I'm a woman who has been there with a previous husband. I didn't want sex with him. It is true that women often don't view sex as important as men do. In fact, it gets downright boring sometimes listening to guys complain over and over again about how their sex life isn't as often as they want it to be. Men talk about women nagging. Men complaining about sex works the same way, nag nag nag. I don't advocate this manipulative idea that a previous poster had about making yourself suddenly look like the hot available stud. She may just think you are having a mid-life crisis if you try to turn yourself into a new man. She may completely get why you are trying manipulation, see through it, and find that approach pathetic. What this woman's issue really is----is that she finds you emotionally distant, and more importantly, think that the two of you have written every script together that you have, and that you're out of new interersting things between the two of you. Somewhere along the line, she started feeling that you weren't taking care of her basic needs--her emotions, and being sensitive to what those feelings were. So she turned those needs and emotions off. Those are the same emotions that lead women to want to have sex. women's radar to screen out the guys not worth their time is the guys that don't pay attention to their emotions, brush their emotions off as not all that important. Now in no way am I saying get down on your knees boy and cater to her every feeling. I am saying to you to act as if sex is not all that important to you, more important than anything else. This is what irks women more than anything. It ISN"T all about sex. If it is all about sex, bottom line, then she will find you boring, shallow, unintellectually stimulating, selfish, no higher form of life than an ape, and hardly worth investing her emotions in you. Give her a shoulder rub while she's sitting in a chair. Have a conversation in your head to start with. It should be about something that has nothing to do with sex. The conversation should be light-hearted. It should include humor. Then give her a few minutes of a shoulder rub, and then, when the conversation is finished, end it smoothly, and walk away, thereby letting her know instinctively that you didn't do that shoulder rub to get sex, you didn't do it for any reason at all--except that you care for her and find her companionship pleasurable. Now you'll be starting something that she appreciates. Just my 2c
mem11363 Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 Hey there, When was sex good in your marriage? Did it fade gradually or stop all the sudden? What was happening in your life/hers around the time that happened? Have you ever asked her what turns her on/off both inside and outside the bedroom? What effort has she put into helping solve this - since it is a marital issue not just a one person problem. Married for over twenty years to a wonderful, caring, loving partner, great mom, very romantic, however sex is very low on the priorty list. Been to sex therapist, suggested books (Nancy Friday) and talk all to no avail. I know this is how she is wired, but still feel cramped. Please help!
Boos Posted December 5, 2009 Posted December 5, 2009 Ok, sorry for replying when I'm in only a five month marriage. Our "arguments", (not really arguments) are about whether we do it twice a day or three times a day. But: (but): we were together for a long time before the marriage, and this is not my first relationship, and I hope I might have some kind of valid opinion, so I'll share. Feel free to ignore, as always :-) If you have the higher libido, then act on it. So many times, from conversations with my friends, and reflections with my sisters, it seems like this "no sex" complaint is truly just a smoke-screen for a "not aggressive enough" complaint. Those are two TOTALLY DIFFERENT complaints. One has to do with libido, the other may have to do with shyness or upbringing or tiredness. Now, I'm not at all trying to say that those of you in sexless marriages are not afflicted by a real and tragic problem. But you, OP, say that sex is "low on the priority list" for your partner. You're not saying that she's turned off... Maybe, without sounding crass here, you could try to turn her on? Be the aggressor, create the romance, order the roses, violins, and candlelight and see what happens? I'm sure when you were dating you didn't expect her to roll over and spread 'em whenever you wanted? Maybe try recreating a little of that ol' time romance... [end sappy girly romantic tirade] Thank you Las Vegas! Good night! Ruby
Author HeyThere Posted December 6, 2009 Author Posted December 6, 2009 (edited) Thanks for the responses. My wife’s low sexual priority has been consistent through-out our marriage. I’ve asked her to share her fantasy(s) and she claims it’s tiring and not natural for her to do that. In addition, my requests are to think differently i.e. talk dirty, vary our sexual encounters, and let me take her clothes off… All of these are lost on her. She sometimes enjoys flashing me in the kitchen with the children in the house. So obviously, she has a sense of humor w/ uninhibited actions. This rarely carries over into the bedroom. My wife is my best friend; we talk about almost everything that interests us – work, children, eating, exercise, hobbies... I’m emotionally open and interested in her feelings and have become a much better listener over the years. I take care of her emotional needs, not because I have to but, I want to. I feel that sex to her is something that is done to her and she doesn’t invest herself in emotionally which is contradictory to our daily relationship. I feel that the intimacy in the bedroom is so weak because it is not a two way communication. Both the “libido, the other may have to do with shyness or upbringing or tiredness” are present. The quality and quantity are missing in the bedroom. I’m not giving up – the suggestions are taken to heart. Edited December 6, 2009 by HeyThere font
mem11363 Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 In many marriages there is a large libido spread - defined as the difference in desire levels between the high libido (HL) partner and the low libido (LL) partner. In those marriages typically one of two outcomes occurs: 1. The LL partner largely sets the pace, and there is little compromise. In those marriages the HL partner is chronically frustrated about sex - mostly about the lack of the special type emotional connection obtained solely from sex and in their marriage rarely from their partner. 2. There is a major compromise with the LL partner making the effort to meet the HL partner in the middle or sometimes even more then halfway. The second type of marriage only happens when their are one or more powerful emotional factors driving the LL partner to make the effort to go above and beyond the sexual pace which their body is designed for: - Love: This is when the LL partner sees giving themselves as a special gift that makes their HL partner happy in a way that is unique to marriage - Guilt: This is a meaningful behavioral driver if the LL partner grasps how bad the HL partner feels when sex is infrequent AND if they actually care whether or not their partner feels bad/unloved/physiologically (high blood pressure etc) and emotionally tense - Fear: While this emotional driver is the least desirable, it can be a meaningful factor in marriages where the HL partner is noticeably easier to get along with, more helpful, etc. when sex is more frequent. Fear can also be a factor if the LL partner believes that infrequent sex could jeopardize the marriage. Thanks for the responses. My wife’s low sexual priority has been consistent through-out our marriage. I’ve asked her to share her fantasy(s) and she claims it’s tiring and not natural for her to do that. In addition, my requests are to think differently i.e. talk dirty, vary our sexual encounters, and let me take her clothes off… All of these are lost on her. She sometimes enjoys flashing me in the kitchen with the children in the house. So obviously, she has a sense of humor w/ uninhibited actions. This rarely carries over into the bedroom. My wife is my best friend; we talk about almost everything that interests us – work, children, eating, exercise, hobbies... I’m emotionally open and interested in her feelings and have become a much better listener over the years. I take care of her emotional needs, not because I have to but, I want to. I feel that sex to her is something that is done to her and she doesn’t invest herself in emotionally which is contradictory to our daily relationship. I feel that the intimacy in the bedroom is so weak because it is not a two way communication. Both the “libido, the other may have to do with shyness or upbringing or tiredness” are present. The quality and quantity are missing in the bedroom. I’m not giving up – the suggestions are taken to heart.
tommyr Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Give her a shoulder rub while she's sitting in a chair. Have a conversation in your head to start with. It should be about something that has nothing to do with sex. The conversation should be light-hearted. It should include humor. Then give her a few minutes of a shoulder rub, and then, when the conversation is finished, end it smoothly, and walk away, thereby letting her know instinctively that you didn't do that shoulder rub to get sex, you didn't do it for any reason at all--except that you care for her and find her companionship pleasurable. OP: you provided little detail, but it sounds to me like you already have tried the "soft and fluffy" approach.... with no results. Let's assume you ARE meeting the (non-sexual) needs of your wife. If so, probably is time to be more direct: in a loving but firm manner, ask her why she expects you to keep meeting her needs when she consistently ignores your need for a sexual relationship.
mem11363 Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Usually the way this works - or to be fair - the reason for a total lack of parity in the marriage is that the husband is largely/totally conflict avoidant and therefore two of the 3 behavioral drivers that effect the LL spouse don't apply - guilt and fear. So what is left is love. And the sad thing is if the HL spouse doesn't love himself enough to force the issue - then the LL spouse almost never does. As for conflict - telling your wife how bad you feel isn't conflict. LOL - that is just whining. Women raise kids - you can whine all day and all night and it is just one more frequency of white noise they tune out. Conflict is when you do things that make HER angry. And then you keep doing them all the while repeating the same brief point: I don't feel loved, don't feel my needs are taken seriously and am not even going to discuss your grievances until you address this long standing issue to my satisfaction. THAT is conflict. Works best when the HL spouse is firm but not angry. Determined but not confrontational in tone. But the only stable long term solution is to address the WHY. WHY does she not want sex with you? This is not about LL really - not in most cases - if it is then the solution is easy she just has more sex with you. LL by itself is not an issue a LL person can be aroused and brought to the finish line. They simply need to agree to LET you arouse them as they don't start out turned on. LL by itself is usually just a lack of consideration/laziness - moderate pressure solves that. The more common issue is sexual aversion. She genuinely dislikes/resents sex with you. And this approach of getting her angry is NOT to try to negotiate some minimal amount of sex. It is actually to force some very uncomfortable communication during which she tells you the truth about how she feels about sex. It might be fixable and it might not be. But at least you will know how she feels. OP: you provided little detail, but it sounds to me like you already have tried the "soft and fluffy" approach.... with no results. Let's assume you ARE meeting the (non-sexual) needs of your wife. If so, probably is time to be more direct: in a loving but firm manner, ask her why she expects you to keep meeting her needs when she consistently ignores your need for a sexual relationship.
Author HeyThere Posted December 12, 2009 Author Posted December 12, 2009 This week my W confirmed that she has been focused on herself to the exclusion of “us”. She has been consumed by her work, our children, her physique (slightly overweight 15-20lbs) and her mother. Work for her is important but, not achieving a satisfactory financial result. We share our resources, although I’m the primary source of money coming in. She works in sales and enjoys much about her work – the interactions with clients, colleagues and staff. There have been several bumps in the road with a client cancelling a check on items collected then filling bankruptcy and W responsible for earnings collected. Other clients have not wanted to pony up on change orders, leaving her “holding the bag” so to speak. Sales have been slow industry wide. She’s now working the prospect list that has not been attended to in a long time. Our children, one in HS and two in MS are smart, capable individuals with everyday needs of students in secondary school – nothing out of the ordinary. Time consuming none the less – academic, athletic, social, transportation and emotional development are all a part of this as any parent w/ children. W has rarely been comfortable w/ her body. This is a subject I don’t entirely understand but, have been 110% encouraging of from the start. As I said she is slightly over her ideal figure and we work together on good eating habits and exercise. She’s into Zumba and I enjoy biking and hiking. I compliment her every chance I get. Generally we are encouraging of each other. Her mother is a kind, considerate, opinionated, not always relaxed, dominant figure, who W puts on a pedestal. I’ve seen these characteristics from the beginning and only commented on the positive until yesterday I mentioned the part about her mother being “tense” and my W putting her on a pedestal. I think W was a little taken aback by my frank comment – she didn’t respond back, yet. I believe my W physical image of herself is embedded by her upbringing. Sex is taboo subject for W. She doesn’t like to talk or think about it. She does seem to enjoy it when we have it. Twice this week – so I’m not complaining – but that has not happened in a very long time. I’m very conscious of not emphasizing sex w/ her even though I joke about it. She probably would disagree w/ this last statement. GTG
Author HeyThere Posted December 13, 2009 Author Posted December 13, 2009 Let's assume you ARE meeting the (non-sexual) needs of your wife. If so, probably is time to be more direct: in a loving but firm manner, ask her why she expects you to keep meeting her needs when she consistently ignores your need for a sexual relationship. Spot on. I asked her why she skipped a romantic date and she expressed that she's been unfocused on "us". That moved in a great direction. I'm definately taking a different approach based on the majority of comments here.
Boundary Problem Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 When they don't want the romantic dates......I don't know. I think it means they aren't in love with you anymore. Brother/sister thing. Indifferent to the other person's emotion/sexual needs except in a distant way. Rather than chasing her for sex, perhaps being very male (the 180) might work. Good luck. Sounds very difficult. I hope things work out for you.
SoleMate Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 Please read The Sex-Starved Marriage by Michele Weiner-Davis. Best book ever on this topic.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) Because it is just too typical. Mem11363 telling you to read "mating in captivity", and saying to be distant, get hobbies and go to the gym. There is always a woman blaming you of being boring and emotionally distant and not helping with the house..... Lizzie telling you it is not sex, it is sex with you your spouse isn't interested in.... The list goes on and on. With a marriage over 20 years (my wife and I together 23 too)..... and both of us not 100% sure what our wives think about sex. You even say that "you think she liked it"..... What does that mean???? Does she orgasm, does she reciprocate???? Is she energetic in her lovemaking????? My wife tells me to stop scoring sex..... I asked her the other day after what I thought was a very good orgasm for her, whether I was right in that assessment and she resented that comment...... That is the difference between men and women..... I'd tell her straight out if the sex was particularly good (which is 90% of the time) and women (wives) don't want to say a thing about it..... And then there is the whole argument about if you enjoy sex, why not have it more? Men and women have a completely different view on it and I have been derided when I bring it up in other posts. I have said if I found that sex 3X's a week resulted in less enjoyable sex for her or me, then I'd do it less. When it works and works well every 10 days, I want to try it once every 3 days and see if the results are the same (i.e. orgasm and enjoyment). If it does not work then I will slow it down. Unfortunately like most married males, we don't get a chance to test this experiment. Edited December 13, 2009 by Toodamnpragmatic
mem11363 Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 TDP is correct about our patterns though I wonder if he recognizes his own. Read his posts and see if it jumps out at you as clearly as it does to me. Because it is just too typical. Mem11363 telling you to read "mating in captivity", and saying to be distant, get hobbies and go to the gym. There is always a woman blaming you of being boring and emotionally distant and not helping with the house..... Lizzie telling you it is not sex, it is sex with you your spouse isn't interested in.... The list goes on and on. With a marriage over 20 years (my wife and I together 23 too)..... and both of us not 100% sure what our wives think about sex. You even say that "you think she liked it"..... What does that mean???? Does she orgasm, does she reciprocate???? Is she energetic in her lovemaking????? My wife tells me to stop scoring sex..... I asked her the other day after what I thought was a very good orgasm for her, whether I was right in that assessment and she resented that comment...... That is the difference between men and women..... I'd tell her straight out if the sex was particularly good (which is 90% of the time) and women (wives) don't want to say a thing about it..... And then there is the whole argument about if you enjoy sex, why not have it more? Men and women have a completely different view on it and I have been derided when I bring it up in other posts. I have said if I found that sex 3X's a week resulted in less enjoyable sex for her or me, then I'd do it less. When it works and works well every 10 days, I want to try it once every 3 days and see if the results are the same (i.e. orgasm and enjoyment). If it does not work then I will slow it down. Unfortunately like most married males, we don't get a chance to test this experiment.
Author HeyThere Posted December 13, 2009 Author Posted December 13, 2009 I have said if I found that sex 3X's a week resulted in less enjoyable sex for her or me, then I'd do it less. When it works and works well every 10 days, I want to try it once every 3 days and see if the results are the same (i.e. orgasm and enjoyment). If it does not work then I will slow it down. Unfortunately like most married males, we don't get a chance to test this experiment. Very funny! LOL Yes, men and women think differently and specifically about sex. I could have sex w/ W 10x per week but, why ruin a good thing. I say, I think my wife enjoys sex is because when we make love she gets in the mood (even if it didn’t start that way) and seems pleased. I use qualifiers because she is non verbal in and about the act, and will not talk about sex. If left to her own devices I think she could go a very long time without. However, she can’t go a minute without hugging or kissing me when I’m in the middle of anything. She needs a great deal of constant affection – which is wonderful. As mem11363 suggested reading Mating in Captivity “The basic gist of it is this. You need to make yourself more attractive and less available.” Sounds absolutely correct; I plan to get a copy and read it! As I’ve already incorporated some of these attitudes and behaviors in my relationship, with better results. Blindsidedagainalive writes: “You cannot fix another persons self image problems with a change in your behaviour.” Agreed, however I can make myself more desirable. You Go Girl writes: “Give her a shoulder rub while she's sitting in a chair. Have a conversation in your head to start with. It should be about something that has nothing to do with sex. The conversation should be light-hearted. It should include humor. Then give her a few minutes of a shoulder rub, and then, when the conversation is finished, end it smoothly, and walk away, thereby letting her know instinctively that you didn't do that shoulder rub to get sex, you didn't do it for any reason at all--except that you care for her and find her companionship pleasurable.” Yes, I’ve used this to communicate with W – whereas it’s not all about sex. However, if I just show this side it doesn’t usually transfer over into lust. Several have commented about being more alpha which makes sense to me.
mem11363 Posted December 13, 2009 Posted December 13, 2009 My wife is rarely aroused when we start. However I do think she is emotionally hungry when we begin - she wants to be intensely connected and this is the means to that end. Yesterday afternoon we were getting ready to host a work party at our house - it had been a bit of a stressful day and I had been very accommodating. She says "thank you for being so "into" me." I think the combo of being into her and not "overly present" is very effective. Very funny! LOL Yes, men and women think differently and specifically about sex. I could have sex w/ W 10x per week but, why ruin a good thing. I say, I think my wife enjoys sex is because when we make love she gets in the mood (even if it didn’t start that way) and seems pleased. I use qualifiers because she is non verbal in and about the act, and will not talk about sex. If left to her own devices I think she could go a very long time without. However, she can’t go a minute without hugging or kissing me when I’m in the middle of anything. She needs a great deal of constant affection – which is wonderful. As mem11363 suggested reading Mating in Captivity “The basic gist of it is this. You need to make yourself more attractive and less available.” Sounds absolutely correct; I plan to get a copy and read it! As I’ve already incorporated some of these attitudes and behaviors in my relationship, with better results. Blindsidedagainalive writes: “You cannot fix another persons self image problems with a change in your behaviour.” Agreed, however I can make myself more desirable. You Go Girl writes: “Give her a shoulder rub while she's sitting in a chair. Have a conversation in your head to start with. It should be about something that has nothing to do with sex. The conversation should be light-hearted. It should include humor. Then give her a few minutes of a shoulder rub, and then, when the conversation is finished, end it smoothly, and walk away, thereby letting her know instinctively that you didn't do that shoulder rub to get sex, you didn't do it for any reason at all--except that you care for her and find her companionship pleasurable.” Yes, I’ve used this to communicate with W – whereas it’s not all about sex. However, if I just show this side it doesn’t usually transfer over into lust. Several have commented about being more alpha which makes sense to me.
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