Seems like evetyone's an artist these days...

[gypsy_nicky]

This is not strictly a dating-related post, but it was inspired by some of the things said about the so-called artistic types in the now-closed 'sexy men' thread (to be clear, my comments apply to 'artistic women' as well). Basically, I just don't get this whole modern 'artistic' movement. In the past, to be considered an artist, one had to possess some semblance of talent. Nowadays, it seems that even a totally average person fancies himself an artist (or is it artiste?). I mean, it's like being an artist (or, more accurately, pretending to be an artist) has become some kind of a lifestyle for a significant portion of the young adult population.

 

Let's start with the obvious: 'bohemian' appearance. Apparently, someone decided that the androgynous/pseudo-homosexual look is the pinnacle of artistic self-expression. Also, the whole garage band thing. It seems that just about everyone is in a band these days. It doesn't matter that your band sucks harder than Ted Haggard - the very fact that you are in one means that you're an 'artistic soul'.

 

And then we have the whole 'I am too good to live in the real world' phenomenon. Go to any college and see who's studying math, sciences, engineering, accounting and other subjects that usually lead to successful careers. Chances are, you'd be hard pressed to see a white face in one of those classes. 90% of the class would be comprised of Asians and other immigrants. It seems that North Americans don't see these professions as 'artistic' enough - instead, they study things like sociology, women's issues, urban studies, interior design, 'therapeutic recreation' (don't ask me what that means, but I actually know someone who's getting a degree in that), and other subjects that at best can land you a job as a Starbucks 'barista' or a waiter at Denny's upon graduation.

 

I look at all these 'artistic' types living in ratty apartments and working crappy jobs, feeling angry at the world that doesn't recognize their 'true talents' and I feel nothing but contempt. Oh yeah, and thanks for reading my rant.

 

there is no artistic movement to begin with. There will always be people doing those degrees.

 

The fact that 'asians' like the hard science is because its part of their cultural upbringing.

 

There are just as many white people doing the sciences.

 

You clearly don't know what bohemian means.

 

Your talking about fine arts not humanities. You don't know the difference.

 

Yes your a troll

[sedgwick]

So do you have any actual data to back this up, such as a list of literacy rates over time, or a comparison of higher education levels completed in the 1960's versus today? I figure someone so hardcore about chess and critical thinking might have considered that.

 

Ody, you are without question my favorite poster. Thanks for that.

 

And: I was an English/Theatre double major. Then I went to grad school and got an MFA in creative writing. Now I write memoirs and plays for a living. That is my "day job" and how I support myself. That's as much as I'm going to engage in this discussion.

Edited December 4, 2009 by sedgwick

[Johnny M]

The fact that 'asians' like the hard science is because its part of their cultural upbringing.

And it's part of our cultural upbringing to look down on anything that is considered practical and suffer from delusions of grandeur (i.e. I need to express myself though 'art' because I'm so special).

 

There are just as many white people doing the sciences.

This is simply not the case. I recently went to my brother's graduation ceremony at one of largest/best universities in Canada and by my estimate 80-90% of students graduating with a science degree were non-white, even though whites account of 85% of Canada's population. And from my experience while living in the States, things are not drastically different in your country.

[Ody]

This is simply not the case. I recently went to my brother's graduation ceremony at one of largest/best universities in Canada and by my estimate 80-90% of students graduating with a science degree were non-white, even though whites account of 85% of Canada's population. And from my experience while living in the States, things are not drastically different in your country.

 

Gotta love false precision.

 

One aspect of "best" universities is that they often have large international student bodies, so comparing the ethnic makeup of the student body to the ethnic makeup of the local population is not a proper comparison. Applicants compete not only against the best of Canada for admission, but also against the best of the world. Visual evaluation (which you seem to be so good at) of the ethnic breakdown in a way that distinguishes Canadian citizens of Asian descent from Asian International students is of course impossible.

 

Now if you want to go back and get some numbers on these things from the Engineering department, rather than using visual guestimates that are likely prebiased by your personal opinion, then we might take you a little more seriously.

[Johnny M]

So do you have any actual data to back this up, such as a list of literacy rates over time, or a comparison of higher education levels completed in the 1960's versus today? I figure someone so hardcore about chess and critical thinking might have considered that.

 

Or is this just supposed to be intuitively obvious?

 

Likewise with the musical talent thing. Some link to a study on the role of ghostwriting in the top 40 charts throughout the twentieth century might be helpful... Perhaps an essay on the role of electronic pitch correction in musical performance and recording during the last decade. Or should we just stick with hand waving?

 

Why is this in the dating forum? I'm thinking rants or water cooler.

You know what else would be helpful? If actually read the posts you were responding to. I know that the urge to say something, anything (a.k.a. verbal diarrhea) can be overwhelming for some people , but really, what the hell does any of this have to do with the subject matter of this thread? Or do you believe that talking about things like ghostwriting and 'electronic pitch correction' automatically makes you sound intelligent and coherent?

[dudet]

You know what else would be helpful? If actually read the posts you were responding to. I know that the urge to say something, anything (a.k.a. verbal diarrhea) can be overwhelming for some people , but really, what the hell does any of this have to do with the subject matter of this thread? Or do you believe that talking about things like ghostwriting and 'electronic pitch correction' automatically makes you sound intelligent and coherent?

 

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

[shadowplay]

I guess the way I look at it is I have something I want to say specific to film. My end goal is to express that thing in an eloquent way. I'm not there yet, and I'm trying to develop the the skills to get there. It's a frustrating process because I feel like what I'm creating hasn't caught up with the ideas in my head.

 

Sometimes I get hung up in all this comparing myself to other people, but then I remember that's not the point. It's more about making the art for myself and creating something that's interesting to me. If other people don't like it but I'm proud of what I do, I think in the end that wouldn't matter.

 

If I find I don't have what it takes to be successful at that alone, I'll pursue something more practical but related enough for me to feel like it's helping me attain that end goal.

 

I don't think I'll ever give it up in some capacity, because expressing that thing is really important to me. The ultimate disappointment for me wouldn't be not being successful at it in practical terms, but finding that I was unable to ever create something close to what I want to express.

Edited December 4, 2009 by shadowplay

[Johnny M]

One aspect of "best" universities is that they often have large international student bodies, so comparing the ethnic makeup of the student body to the ethnic makeup of the local population is not a proper comparison. Applicants compete not only against the best of Canada for admission, but also against the best of the world. Visual evaluation (which you seem to be so good at) of the ethnic breakdown in a way that distinguishes Canadian citizens of Asian descent from Asian International students is of course impossible.

Since you're so big on statistics, show me a mainstream university where international students comprise 80-90% of the overall student body . And while you're at it, maybe you can explain why the majority of students graduating with arts degrees from the very same university, on the very same day were white. Until you do, I'll take my visual observations over your verbal diarrhea.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Johnny M

[Ody]

You know what else would be helpful? If actually read the posts you were responding to. I know that the urge to say something, anything (a.k.a. verbal diarrhea) can be overwhelming for some people , but really, what the hell does any of this have to do with the subject matter of this thread? Or do you believe that talking about things like ghostwriting and 'electronic pitch correction' automatically makes you sound intelligent and coherent?

 

These are concrete things that have to do with levels of performance or compositional talent, and how they are percieved.

 

I do read the posts. For instance, you said:

 

"In the past, to be considered an artist, one had to possess some semblance of talent".

 

'Electronic pitch correction' is commonly known as auto-tune. This is a 'real thing' and you've probably 'heard' it's effects sometime today. There are million dollar companies that specialize in this, notably Antares, and it has very much influenced most of the music you hear on the radio in the past 10 years, as well as the the work habits and required skills of many of the world's best known musical artists. So this seems relevant to a post about how nowadays there is no talent amongst artists. If you are actually interested in the topic, you might look into it.

 

You're basically coming in with a glorified "damn kids nowadays" and "they're taking our jobs!" argument. On top of that, you are posting it in the wrong subforum. Of course it's relevant to ask for data or actual academic studies that back up your broad claims.

[Ody]

Since you're so big on statistics, show me a mainstream university where international students comprise 80-90% of the overall student body . And while you're at it, maybe you can explain why the majority of students graduating with arts degrees from the very same university, on the very same day were white. Until you do, I'll take my visual observations over your verbal diarrhea.

 

From the Stanford Graduate School of Management Science and Engineering:

 

"We have 284 current Master of Science students. There are 81 female students, and 144 international students."

 

This was my very first google result, and it took my under 30 seconds to find. Note that over half the students in this program are international students. Not 80%, but my point wasn't that they all were international students, but that the number of international students skew your numbers to the point where you would be best served by going back to the drawing board and taking a more scientific approach.

 

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/MSandE/cgi-bin/academics/studentinfo.php

[Johnny M]

I do read the posts.

 

'Electronic pitch correction' is commonly known as auto-tune. This is a 'real thing' and you've probably 'heard' it's effects sometime today. There are million dollar companies that specialize in this, notably Antares, and it has very much influenced most of the music you hear on the radio in the past 10 years, as well as the the work habits and required skills of many of the world's best known musical artists. So this seems relevant to a post about how nowadays there is no talent amongst artists. If you are actually interested in the topic, you might look into it.

No, it's not relevant at all to my post. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but since you insist that you have read my post, I'm forced to conclude that it's the poor comprehension (rather than inattentive reading) that's causing the problem. I never said that top-selling recording artists today are less talented than their counterparts back in the 60s (I have no idea how you managed to extrapolate that meaning from my post). In fact, I'm not talking about commercially successful artists at all.

[Ody]

No, it's not relevant at all to my post. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but since you insist that you have read my post, I'm forced to conclude that it's the lack of comprehension (rather than reading) that's causing the problem. I never said that top-selling recording artists today are less talented than their counterparts back in the 60s (I have no idea how you managed to extrapolate that meaning from my post). In fact, I'm not talking about commercially successful artists at all.

 

The thread then got into semi-pro artists, people with day jobs who dress all alternative at night to play the local bar with their band or what not. Auto tune is very relevant to these people.

 

Your broad claims still lack any data or citations to back them up. Just make with the data or say "I don't have any" and we can stop this branch of the thread.

[Johnny M]

From the Stanford Graduate School of Management Science and Engineering:

 

"We have 284 current Master of Science students. There are 81 female students, and 144 international students."

 

This was my very first google result, and it took my under 30 seconds to find. Note that over half the students in this program are international students. Not 80%, but my point wasn't that they all were international students, but that the number of international students skew your numbers to the point where you would be best served by going back to the drawing board and taking a more scientific approach.

 

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/MSandE/cgi-bin/academics/studentinfo.php

First if all, 50% is not 80-90%. Second, graduate and postgraduate programs always have more international students than undergraduate programs.

 

Every single one of your posts in this thread has been a fail so far. I don't even know why I keep participating in this 'discussion' with you, if you can call it that.

[Ody]

First if all, 50% is not 80-90%.

 

my point wasn't that they all were international students, but that the number of international students skew your numbers to the point where you would be best served by going back to the drawing board and taking a more scientific approach

 

 

 

 

 

 

Second, graduate and postgraduate programs always have more international students than undergraduate programs.

 

Come on guy. You know what I'm trying to get at here. I want you to say something specific and quantifiable. Any "best" university engineering department will teach about that. Maybe ask your brother.

 

Basically trying to get something of substance out of you, aside from your vague sense of unease about the way society is headed. Specificity makes things interesting.

 

Anyway this thread's probably about to get closed at this rate. Or hopefully at least moved to rants. It has nothing to do with dating.

[CarrieT]

Let me tell you, being a professional artist is HARD WORK.

 

I have an MFA and work 14+ hour days at my art. I am on the dating sites because I can't afford to leave my studio because it is such a hard business; I have to do my own marketing, public relations, shipping, selling, AND production. That does not take into account the deluge of emails that come in.

 

I am not a hipster, but a middle-aged woman who dresses professionally and lives well (I travel internationally and collect art and wine).

[Jaytb]

I'll take my visual observations over your verbal diarrhea.

 

lol, it sounds like you're the be-all and end-all of truth in the world, now aren't you?

 

Well to be honest, when have the masses ever really cared that much for science, mathematics, engineering, etc? There's almost no appreciation for the countless discoveries and improvements science and technology has brought. Young people are especially oblivious and have always been, you'll notice the "In my day, blah blah blah" stuff that old people always send out, and they end it with "you kids don't know how lucky you are!" Well of course, everyone can just take everything for granted. And people have always aspired to be rock stars or sports stars or things like that, but only nerdy kids aspire to do science or tech instead.

 

By the way, I go to a science and technical university. I see all kinds of people, so I really don't agree with you saying "90% are Asian", it certainly isn't the case anywhere I look.

[Woggle]

As long as they aren't hurting me I don't really care how another person lives their life. If they are happy being a staving artist that is their perogative.

[Awesome Username]

Well I'm not surprised, since it's damn near impossible to get an entry-level tech job in the US anymore.

[ADF]

Actually, the number of college students enrolled in liberals arts, fine arts, etc. is dwarfed by the number enrolled in business, marketing, etc. That holds true for both native and international students. The artisticly focused students you are talking about really are a minority, though they may be overrepresented on some campuses.

 

As the broader point about everybody being an artist, I think artists are those who produce art. People who just hand around artists are no more artists themselves than groupies are musicians.

[underpants]

It is a combinations of talent, drive and a little luck to achieve any goal.

 

If you are truly creative at heart then that trait should carry you through.

 

Smart and creative is key. A side of portioned kindness never hurts.

 

For that matter, smart and any venture will carry you through in most cases.

 

Don't forget Karma.

 

I don't have much but I make money on my creativity more then anything else.

 

ps...You have to have a back up plan. As with anything. Diversify you net worth.

Edited December 5, 2009 by underpants

[the beholder]

I don't get "if you've got what it takes" attitude towards art. If we consider to look at the kind that are successful on the mainstream - they rarely have what it takes, most of them are not even artists if you consider the level of their creatity.

So what really counts it what is important to you - materialism or self-expression.

Edited December 5, 2009 by the beholder

[crosswordfiend]

Here's an interesting article about luck and unfairness as it relates to being successful in the arts. Disclaimer: not an easy read, however some of the books by the same author are very decent.

 

http://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/ARTE.pdf

 

Where I live in downtown Toronto, there's a huge concentration of aspiring musicians, writers, film makers, actors and directors who get by working in the service industry making my coffee and pouring my beer. They're willing to spend their last dollar on eating out and entertainment so they keep the economy humming along nicely. I get the feeling sometimes that so long as the girlfriend keeps on putting out and they can get free drinks from their bartender friends, there's not a care in the world, but I do have to wonder at what age the reality check sets in. The girl who romanticizes the fact that you're a struggling artist in your 20's is not going to feel the same way indefinitely.

[LucreziaBorgia]

I'm one of those artist types, I guess.

 

I'm not disgruntled or concerned about "not being recognized" though. I'm more of a 'tradesman' artist though in that my field is in graphic design. I see my work around town here on tee shirts, billboards, on letterhead and business cards (logos, for example), and stuff like that. But it isn't the type of thing that people will ever look at and appreciate as 'art' so much as they will see it for what it is supposed to do: advertise a cause, or build a brand.

 

I work full time at a bookstore. I freelance with my design work. I do wear thrift shop stuff (out of necessity, mostly - I make enough to get my bills paid and makes sure my kid lacks for nothing but that doesn't leave a lot for myself). I'm sure people look at me with my tattoos (most of them free as portfolio work for my tattoo artist friends), my fifties frames, my decidedly 'not trendy' clothing and probably think to themselves that I am like the stereotype you described in your first post but I have to admit: I'm happy living like this. I like my old apartment. My beater car gets me around. My kid is happy too. I don't live off the government. I make ends meet. I never did care much about living the 'professional' life. I had a "real job" like that for some years and let me tell you - I hated it.

 

My father was appalled that I ditched teaching for running a coffeehouse and going to art school. But you know what? He isn't living my life. I am. I think deep down he is envious that he wasn't able to shake what people expected of him in order to do what he really wanted in life.

 

Not all of us that you see want the materialistic 'professional' life and not all of us really care if we are recognized or not for what we do. Some of us just like living this life and getting by happily in our own "artist" sort of way. My boyfriend is the same - he's a comic book writer and artist on the side, but he works with me at the bookstore. He owns his own house, has a modest car, and together we are building an "artist" life together. We aren't a couple of twenty somethings - I am nearly forty and he is forty-two.

 

And you know what? We make a decent living selling books, and live our dream on the side - I have had my work out there, and he has been published a few times, and we are happy just living simply (bohemian, I suppose) and really wouldn't have it any other way.

 

I do see the stereotypes here in my town though - we have a huge art school at the college here and there are a lot of "fine arts" majors who will never really find the fame they want, and will be quite unhappy pouring coffee and selling books. All walks in life have all types though. That's for sure.

[Ross PK]

I like to do art too. Not sure if I consider myself to be an actual artist though, I mean, what defines an artist? I'm not pissed off at the world though or about my art not being recognised.

 

I just like to draw stuff, put it online to share with everyone and anyone around the world, and I like the fact that it's a part of me that'll still be around long after I've gone, maybe even inspiring other people. If people like it that's cool, if they don't, I couldn't give a ****.

 

You can see a couple of samples in my profile.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Ross PK

[torranceshipman]

I have never dated an arty type - I find it completely unattractive. But everyone has a right to live how they want and express themselves how they want...