Gunny376 Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 Ah! I forgot ( I own a lot of books) "The Art of Living Single"
TaraMaiden Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 I never thought I'd have a fear of abandonment, because I have this tough exterior...but now I do! What the hell can I do about it? This is incredibly scary. Is this something new to you? Have you never faced this before? Let me tell you, to a greater or lesser extent, we all have these fears. So recognise, and realise that you are most definitely not alone. It's not rare to feel this, it's just the intensity which is overwhelming. For obvious reasons, you have it a higher degree than most. But it's ok. It's ok to feel like this. It's absolutely ok, understandable and acceptable. Totally.
LisaUk Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 (edited) First of all, I am a medical professional. I am a surgical oncologist who has done research into depression following combined chemoradiation for solid tumors of the body. So I have some background in mood disorders, although I am not a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist. I have seen what makes people feel better, and I have seen failures as well. I write papers on my computer all day and operate twice a week at a hospital in California. Second, I have seen a psychotherapist for individual counseling following discovery of my ex-wife's affair. And, differences in treatment philosophies aside, my psychotherapist did happen to recommend active exercises to curtail my period of "grief." Although years ago, I do recall that one involved stopping the "negative audio/video" that would play in my mind every day in the morning as soon as I woke up, and actively replacing it with a highlight reel of happy times in my life, some of which included times with the ex-wife. It did work. Another was physical activity. My therapist recommended that I try to lose 10 pounds over 3 months. I grudgingly accepted the "assignment," and became a believer after a hint of a six-pack (okay, maybe four-pack) came through. And the huge surge in endorphins finishing a stint on the treadmills was therapy in itself. Make no mistake, I'm not advocating that you don't grieve. You have to grieve. But I'm getting a sense that your grief has developed into a full-blown major depressive disorder. I'm not talking sad. I'm talking, you're having suicidal thoughts, you are having frequent meltdowns, this is seeping into every aspect of your life depression. And that's dangerous! The very best medical research into the treatment of depression (as far as I know, I have not done a recent review of depression treatment) involves a combination of cognitive behavioral therapy and antidepressants. I think selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors are still the drugs of choice to replete our low levels when we are depressed, but the cognitive behavioral therapy must be done by you. I've already intimated that I feel that antidepressant therapy would be something to look into, and I don't know how the British healthcare system deals with mental health referrals, but you need help, LisaUK. I have posted several times that people need to be careful surrounding themselves with enablers. I do understand that posting here in therapeutic, but if all you're taking away from the responders is that it's okay for you to keep feeling like this, you are succumbing to a very hurtful responder bias. Out of curiosity, what kind of doctor is your physician who is telling you need to keep grieving or else it will "bite you" in the behind double later on? I have a degree in Psychology and a qualification in counselling, I also counselled people for over a year. That's how I know that the general thinking in the majority of cases about grieving is that it takes as long as it takes and you don't try to curtail it or push it away, that's not healthy. As for the doctor who said that, it was my general practictioner along with the counsellor (Humanistic Psychotherapist) who did my assessment for a referal for CBT (Cognitive behavioural therapy). I understand CBT, I have gone through the process before for an anxiety disorder I had, I have, of course, also spent years studying it during my degree, along with all the models of counselling and psychotherapy, plus all the cognitive, behavioural, social, gestalt, jung, frued etc schools of thought. Unfortunately in the UK there are long waiting lists for counselling and CBT, I am waiting for both, I have been told I may get to see someone come April, if I am lucky! As for meds, I would rather not, I personally feel they are an artificial mechanism that mask the true problem and unless someone is clinically depressed (chemically depressed, not circumstance depressed) I personally don't think they are a good idea. Once you stop taking them, you still need to address the cause. Being a medical doctor I guess you approach things rather differently, from a medication point of view. Medication, however, only treats the symptoms and the not cause. Despite having bad moments recently, which I think is because I was to be getting married a week Friday, which makes this a particularly difficult time for me, I think I am coping well. I know I am depressed but I also know why I am. Like I said wedding date approaching. Like Tojaz says, I feel I have actually made a lot of progress over the last 9 months, I also recognise when I am having set backs and I take steps to deal with them by asking for support on here, it is the only place support is available to me. It is not self serving and perpetuating and to be honest some of your comments to me have made me feel bad and gulity for feeling the way I do and expressing those feelings. Like Tojaz said, would you prefer that I kept quiet, stop posting and faked it? Question then is, will I be able to cope? Life is not always black and white, like science, where one reaction in the body produces another (21 processes you have to learn in medicine I beleive, that account for any disease?), there are shades of grey, that is why we have medical doctors for physical illness and others (clinical pschologists, therapists, counsellors etc) for traetment of the "mind", the mind is not a linear process, it's much more complex than that. To be told that it is not okay to feel the way I feel, that I am abnormal in some way, after having suffered a major loss and life altering trauma and that I am sucuming to a responder bias and being enabled to feel grief which you say is abnormal to feel after 9 months, when you have not read the revelvant research papers and studied the processes involved, as I have, is not only very hurtful, it's also insulting. Edited December 8, 2009 by LisaUk
curiou Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 I have a degree in Psychology and a qualification in counselling, I also counselled people for over a year. That's how I know that the general thinking in the majority of cases about grieving is that it takes as long as it takes and you don't try to curtail it or push it away, that's not healthy. LisaUK, perhaps I was imprecise in my language, and for that, I apologize. I stand humbled by your impassioned response. I don't mean to antagonize you. I withdraw any comments I may have made that offended you in any way. Allow me to reiterate: I believe grieving is necessary. You must do so. I know that from being on this forum for two months, I cannot possibly have the understanding of your progress that soheartbroken and tojaz, and most importantly, YOU, do. I can only state my opinion based on your recent posts, where you have had suicidal ideation, feelings of hopelessness, admitting that you were "scared" about yourself (sorry, I'm not going to look for the specific post). As a healthcare provider, that raises the red flags for me. I'm sorry if I jumped the gun. Again, I apologize a thousand times over. As for the doctor who said that, it was my general practictioner along with the counsellor (Humanistic Psychotherapist) who did my assessment for a referal for CBT (Cognitive behavioural therapy). I understand CBT, I have gone through the process before for an anxiety disorder I had, I have, of course, also spent years studying it during my degree, along with all the models of counselling and psychotherapy, plus all the cognitive, behavioural, social, gestalt, jung, frued etc schools of thought. Unfortunately in the UK there are long waiting lists for counselling and CBT, I am waiting for both, I have been told I may get to see someone come April, if I am lucky! I am glad you are willing to pursue this! I am sad about your long waiting period! As for meds, I would rather not, I personally feel they are an artificial mechanism that mask the true problem and unless someone is clinically depressed (chemically depressed, not circumstance depressed) I personally don't think they are a good idea. Once you stop taking them, you still need to address the cause. Being a medical doctor I guess you approach things rather differently, from a medication point of view. Medication, however, only treats the symptoms and the not cause. LisaUK, I know that nothing I write here can convince someone who is distrustful of SSRI therapy that they are indeed a useful adjunct in depression. If you are ever interested, however, Dr. Ron Pies from SUNY (I think?) has written much work about this common misconception, if you are ever interested. Obviously, you have lots of other stuff to worry about. The gist of much of what he has written tries to distinguish between a normal, healthy grieving process, and its evolution into nonproductive, even dangerous, depression. I appreciate there is no lab or clinical test to distinguish the two. Despite having bad moments recently, which I think is because I was to be getting married a week Friday, which makes this a particularly difficult time for me, I think I am coping well. I know I am depressed but I also know why I am. Like I said wedding date approaching. Like Tojaz says, I feel I have actually made a lot of progress over the last 9 months, I also recognise when I am having set backs and I take steps to deal with them by asking for support on here, it is the only place support is available to me. It is not self serving and perpetuating and to be honest some of your comments to me have made me feel bad and gulity for feeling the way I do and expressing those feelings. Like Tojaz said, would you prefer that I kept quiet, stop posting and faked it? Please don't threaten me like that. This is your forum, your outlet, and I have become too wrapped up in the existentialism of your experiences for my own good. Back to mindless grant-writing. Question then is, will I be able to cope? Life is not always black and white, like science, where one reaction in the body produces another (21 processes you have to learn in medicine I beleive, that account for any disease?), there are shades of grey, that is why we have medical doctors for physical illness and others (clinical pschologists, therapists, counsellors etc) for traetment of the "mind", the mind is not a linear process, it's much more complex than that. To be told that it is not okay to feel the way I feel, that I am abnormal in some way, after having suffered a major loss and life altering trauma and that I am sucuming to a responder bias and being enabled to feel grief which you say is abnormal to feel after 9 months, when you have not read the revelvant research papers and studied the processes involved, as I have, is not only very hurtful, it's also insulting. Another apology. I'm sorry you were insulted. I wish you well. Good luck.
FeelingLonely98 Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 To be told that it is not okay to feel the way I feel, that I am abnormal in some way, after having suffered a major loss and life altering trauma and that I am sucuming to a responder bias and being enabled to feel grief which you say is abnormal to feel after 9 months, when you have not read the revelvant research papers and studied the processes involved, as I have, is not only very hurtful, it's also insulting. Though addressed at LisaUK, I also feel hurt and insulted by those type of posts. My own Mother thinks it is also a choice to feel like I do - I told her that it hurts me so for her to say that, even if she truly believes it. I'm with LisaUK.
LisaUk Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 Hi Curiou, thank you for your apology, I am sure you were trying to help. I would just like to say though that you have again referred to a "normal" and "abnormal" grieving process when you referenced Dr Pies. There is no "normal" way to grieve, that is the point, it is different for everyone preciesly b/c everyone is different. You also said that there is no clinical test to assess depression. There is. There are standardised quetionnaires used in the health service by Clinical Psychologists that have undergone, years upon years of rigous testing in terms of factor analysis, validity, internal consistency, in short all that is needed to make sure they measure what they are designed to measure. I have been assessed and am awaiting referal, I was not assessed as needing immediate treatment or medication. However, my main point here being that you refer to normal and abnormal grieving, there is only grieving, some may become serverly depressed during the grieving process, but that does not mean they are abnormal, unhealthy or in any way not trying to deal with their grief. It just means that the amount of pain they are feeling outweighs their resources to cope with that pain. Pushing the grief and loss away, as you suggest, is not only unhealthy (it's called repression and denial) it is nigh on impossible to do for most people. As for the meds, I have to disagree about SSRI thearpy, just look at Seroxat, how many people commited sucide whilst on that? A lot I seem to recall. In fact I think an independant investigation found the drug to increase the risk, as patients assessed as not at risk before medicating subsequently commited suicide. There are other ways of treating depression, St.John's Wort, exercise, healthy eating, avoiding cigerettes , alcohol and caffeine. Anyway, I am going off on a tangent here, I thank you for your apology and for your advice, I just wanted to present the other side of the argument for any others reading this.
HeavenOrHell Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 Me too. Well said Lisa. I'm with LisaUK.
HeavenOrHell Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 It is a relief that you are saying what I feel. And to hear someone else who has also been left after 18 years say that it is a major loss and life altering trauma. Some people just don't get the enormity of what has happened to us. I feel some of my friends left me to get on with it after the first month! My brother who is a psychiatric nurse said to our mum that he thought I would be feeling a bit better after the 3rd month! WTF!! I felt like a right failure after hearing that! To be told that it is not okay to feel the way I feel, that I am abnormal in some way, after having suffered a major loss and life altering trauma and that I am sucuming to a responder bias and being enabled to feel grief which you say is abnormal to feel after 9 months, when you have not read the revelvant research papers and studied the processes involved, as I have, is not only very hurtful, it's also insulting.
Gunny376 Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 There are other ways of treating depression, St.John's Wort, exercise, healthy eating, avoiding cigerettes , alcohol and caffeine. Someone saved a Life tonight.
sumdude Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 It is a relief that you are saying what I feel. And to hear someone else who has also been left after 18 years say that it is a major loss and life altering trauma. Some people just don't get the enormity of what has happened to us. I feel some of my friends left me to get on with it after the first month! My brother who is a psychiatric nurse said to our mum that he thought I would be feeling a bit better after the 3rd month! WTF!! I felt like a right failure after hearing that! People who haven't been through it can't always understand it. Every person, marriage and situation is different. I'll share my story for those who weren't around the whole time. Hope it's not a thread jack. I really come here to get help and help others. In a span of 3 years I first lost my mother to cancer, then my wife left me, my aunt and uncle passed, my father's health failed and then he passed away. At times I was in such a deep depression all I could think was "What's the point?... of anything?" Add to that the midlife blues and I've struggled a bit. I couldn't even tell who or what I've grieving at times. But I've learned a lot... I was married less than a year to my live in GF of 6 years when my mother's cancer started to take her. The last couple months of her life put incredible stress on my family and marriage. At the same time my ex and I were trying to have a kid and she wasn't able to. She was on hormone therapy which made her usual tough moods even more intense. There were issues between my wife and sister. The marriage was not in a good place ... after my Mom died I went into an emotional "man cave" which also happened to be whiskey bottle shaped. I withdrew from the world and my wife who was causing me stress too. At some point the next year my wife started looking elsewhere for something. She also had her own big set of issues involving her mother abandoning her and other things. By the time I just started coming around again a year later she was already mostly out the door though I had no real clue. When she suddenly left me I had two choices. Keep living like I was crash and burn or pull up hard on the stick before that happened. I was 70 lbs overweight and a mess. I stopped drinking, started working out like mad and dealing with the emotions head on. Six months later when the divorce went through court I had lost 55 lbs. I was still grieving.. I was still dealing with a lot of pain but I was in a better place than I could have been. If I hadn't done those things I think the stress of caregiving for my father then his passing thereafter could have really taken me down. I'm now three years past the day my ex left and one year since my Dad passed away. I am just now starting to come out of it all. I still have some bad days and moments. But the things I know helped me I share with others. A lot of it came from people here like Gunny and others. Sometimes I think I should have tried anti-depressant because of how deep down low I could get. There's no shortcut to it.. but there are things you can do to help yourself, But exercise (big time), posting here, friends and really trying to control negative thinking (within reason) get me through.
FeelingLonely98 Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 It is a relief that you are saying what I feel. And to hear someone else who has also been left after 18 years say that it is a major loss and life altering trauma. Some people just don't get the enormity of what has happened to us. I feel some of my friends left me to get on with it after the first month! My brother who is a psychiatric nurse said to our mum that he thought I would be feeling a bit better after the 3rd month! WTF!! I felt like a right failure after hearing that! I hear you HoH. I've heard variations of all of these: - Nobody died - It's not like someone got cancer - Things will get better - You'll find someone else - You deserve better - You'll Get over her - You'll move on - It's not your fault - You'll see 1 day this happened for a reason (I love this one ... NOT!) All of these are said to minimize what's happened to us - at least in the speaker's mind. Or to "try" to make me feel better. It never works. As a matter of fact it frustrates me. All of the things said are true but feel cold and insensitive. IDK. Maybe it's just me. (and LisaUk and Hoh!) I tell you what. If a family member or friend or someone I know ever gets their heart and life shattered like happened to me, I will now know how to help them. This is a great thread ... PEACE!
sumdude Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 I hear you HoH. I've heard variations of all of these: - Nobody died - It's not like someone got cancer - Things will get better - You'll find someone else - You deserve better - You'll Get over her - You'll move on - It's not your fault - You'll see 1 day this happened for a reason (I love this one ... NOT!) All of these are said to minimize what's happened to us - at least in the speaker's mind. Or to "try" to make me feel better. It never works. As a matter of fact it frustrates me. All of the things said are true but feel cold and insensitive. IDK. Maybe it's just me. (and LisaUk and Hoh!) I tell you what. If a family member or friend or someone I know ever gets their heart and life shattered like happened to me, I will now know how to help them. This is a great thread ... PEACE! They don't quite get it and they do think they're helping so at least give them that. Even if a lot of things they tell you are true it's not really what you need or want to hear right now. People who care about you hate to see you hurting and want to see you happy again. So they project a rosy scenario because that is their hope for you.
tojaz Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 To be told that it is not okay to feel the way I feel, that I am abnormal in some way, after having suffered a major loss and life altering trauma and that I am sucuming to a responder bias and being enabled to feel grief which you say is abnormal to feel after 9 months, when you have not read the revelvant research papers and studied the processes involved, as I have, is not only very hurtful, it's also insulting. That a girl!
tojaz Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 - Nobody died - It's not like someone got cancer True nobody died, this is worse! Death carries a finality with it that a break up or divorce never will. Thats what makes it so hard to cope with. When someone dies, you have only the pain of loss to cope with. The questions are answered, you know the whys and hows. You know how the future is going to be in relation to them. There truly is nothing you can do, you know they aren't coming back. Divorce carries none of those certainties and they all need to be addressed to be at peace. Not so much as to find answers to them all as to come to terms with what they mean to us. That takes a long time. - Things will get better - You'll find someone else - You deserve better - You'll Get over her - You'll move on - It's not your fault These are all true, said them all myself on this board hundreds of times. One of those things that are so easy to see in others, but impossible to see in ourselves. These are only things you see after the fact although I don't believe you ever truly "get over" this as much as heal and adapt. All of these are said to minimize what's happened to us - at least in the speaker's mind. Or to "try" to make me feel better. It never works. As a matter of fact it frustrates me. All of the things said are true but feel cold and insensitive. IDK. Maybe it's just me. (and LisaUk and Hoh!) Like I said above, all those statements are true, but I don't think the people saying them ever really know that or even believe it. They are trying to minimize your pain, but I know for quite some time, I was doing my absolute best to maximize it, I tortured myself, punished myself needlessly. While I outwardly brushed them off as cold and insensitive inside I needed to hear those things and try to believe them. This is a great thread ... yes it is, thank you for starting it SHB TOJAZ
curiou Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 LisaUK, I am enjoying this intellectual discussion immensely. I hope you are too. As always, I will gladly withdraw any comments you find offensive. I, like you, hope to present the "other side" of the argument for people to make decisions for themselves. Hi Curiou, thank you for your apology, I am sure you were trying to help. I would just like to say though that you have again referred to a "normal" and "abnormal" grieving process when you referenced Dr Pies. You've cogently shot down that argument, but I'm afraid it's a straw man. Please read my post carefully. I did not refer to "normal" and "abnormal" grieving when citing Dr. Pies. I quite clearly stated that he has argued we must be careful to prevent grieving from evolving into a dangerous, unhealthy, depression. That is an exquisitely important point that I hope others will understand. If you think a DSM-IV major depressive disorder should be an accepted consequence of grieving, not to be treated, we can never agree. There is no "normal" way to grieve, that is the point, it is different for everyone preciesly b/c everyone is different. I absolutely agree that everyone grieves differently. I'd be a fool to argue that. But I'm not arguing that. Would you agree that there is unhealthy grieving and healthy grieving? Could we agree on that? Because based on Bonanno and Kaltman's review on the varieties of grieving experiences, published in Clinical Psychology Review, July 2001, their analysis of multiple resources indicates most psychology professionals would agree there is a "normal" grieving process that allows us to process loss in a healthy manner and a "disordered" grieving process (which includes delayed grieving, masked grieving, and distorted grieving), which is much less healthy. I've read the papers too. You also said that there is no clinical test to assess depression. There is. There are standardised quetionnaires used in the health service by Clinical Psychologists that have undergone, years upon years of rigous testing in terms of factor analysis, validity, internal consistency, in short all that is needed to make sure they measure what they are designed to measure. I have been assessed and am awaiting referal, I was not assessed as needing immediate treatment or medication. However, my main point here being that you refer to normal and abnormal grieving, there is only grieving, See my point above. You are misinterpreting what I wrote. And I would say most published academics would agree there is a normal and disordered grieving process. some may become serverly depressed during the grieving process, but that does not mean they are abnormal, unhealthy or in any way not trying to deal with their grief. Being depressed and having a major depressive disorder are absolutely different things, LisaUK. I know you know this, as a psychology student. One is a layman's term, the other is a DSM-IV (I don't know what criteria you use in the UK) diagnosis. I feared for you because what I intrepreted as serious suicidal ideation, professed feeling of hopelessness, nightmares, and frequent self-confessed meltdowns. These are common in most grieving processes and depression reaction from bereavement but they are persistent and dangerous in major depressive disorder. I've already said I may have jumped the gun because I was taking a snapshot of your most recent posts, and I don't know you personally as well as you yourself or your friends here do. But I will never allow someone to tell me that I must not intervene if I feel there is risk of harm to self or others. It's an oath. It just means that the amount of pain they are feeling outweighs their resources to cope with that pain. Pushing the grief and loss away, as you suggest, is not only unhealthy (it's called repression and denial) it is nigh on impossible to do for most people. Would you agree that there were posters in this and other threads who have written about their techniques to attenuate their grief? They still appropriately went through their grieving stages, but actively partook in things that made them feel better, without reported long-term consequences. See posts by sumdude (immersing himself in exercise) and obscure (focusing actively on his daughters, I believe). Even tojaz, when he heard those impatient pleadings of the people around him, "outwardly brushed them off as cold and insensitive inside" but admits he "I needed to hear those things and try to believe them." Positive thinking to work through his grief. I will say it again. Everyone needs to grieve. I'm not arguing that at all. As for the meds, I have to disagree about SSRI thearpy, just look at Seroxat, how many people commited sucide whilst on that? A lot I seem to recall. In fact I think an independant investigation found the drug to increase the risk, as patients assessed as not at risk before medicating subsequently commited suicide. There are other ways of treating depression, St.John's Wort, exercise, healthy eating, avoiding cigerettes , alcohol and caffeine. And I don't disagree. Well, except for St. John's Wort. It's a very European fascination, this drug. You could turn me into a believer if there is a strong randomized controlled clinical trial showing it to be more effective than placebo. I'll look for one. For now, I'm as likely to use something like that as you are to use an SSRI:) But everything else you wrote about exercising, avoiding cigarettes, etc., I don't disagree. Anyway, I am going off on a tangent here, I thank you for your apology and for your advice, I just wanted to present the other side of the argument for any others reading this. And I am doing likewise. Good luck with your law studies.
LakesideDream Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 I will let it rest too. I think you are trying to help Tara...so thank you for trying. I guess we think differently...(or maybe not as differently as we think). SHB, read the thread. Understand your feelings perfectly. There is good news down the road. The time will come when you stop thinking about the things that hurt you, the people who hurt you. Life is never the same. When you think about "things"... you still hurt. As I said, happily the time comes when you just forget to think about it anymore.
Author soheartbroken Posted December 9, 2009 Author Posted December 9, 2009 I'll share my story for those who weren't around the whole time. Hope it's not a thread jack. I really come here to get help and help others. Thank you for taking the time to share your story sumdude. I'm laughing that you worried about it being a "threadjack". This thread is the most random compilation of posts ever. It's continually taking twists and turns!
Author soheartbroken Posted December 9, 2009 Author Posted December 9, 2009 SHB, read the thread. Understand your feelings perfectly. There is good news down the road. The time will come when you stop thinking about the things that hurt you, the people who hurt you. Life is never the same. When you think about "things"... you still hurt. As I said, happily the time comes when you just forget to think about it anymore. Thank you for reading the thread Lakeside. Don't think I've seen you in the S&D forum before...at least not for awhile. Hope you are right!
Author soheartbroken Posted December 9, 2009 Author Posted December 9, 2009 True nobody died, this is worse! Death carries a finality with it that a break up or divorce never will. Thats what makes it so hard to cope with. When someone dies, you have only the pain of loss to cope with. The questions are answered, you know the whys and hows. You know how the future is going to be in relation to them. There truly is nothing you can do, you know they aren't coming back. Divorce carries none of those certainties and they all need to be addressed to be at peace. Not so much as to find answers to them all as to come to terms with what they mean to us. That takes a long time. Love your new avatar TJ! I won't get into the death/divorce debate -- a great quote from a book that I'm reading says "the very worst kind of grief is yours" -- but divorce also carries with it the added sting of rejection that death often does not. We have to live knowing that that person chose to leave us, and is merrily leading their life without us, often with someone else, and often to their great relief.
LisaUk Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Hi Curiou Problem here is that while this is an intellectual debate for you, the purpose of me writing it was borne out of the hurt I felt when you told me I was abnormal for grieving and I was grieving in an abnormal way. You suggested that people who are grieving should actively work and push that grief aside by positive thinking and you said something about playing positive images in your mind? Below is one line taken from the first clinics website realting to grief I found on googling the term grief. "People can hinder the mourning process by avoiding painful thoughts, using thought stopping strategies, or by entertaining only pleasant thoughts of the deceased, idealising the dead, avoiding reminders of the dead, and using alcohol or drugs to desensitise." I think perhaps we have been on crossed wires, I misinterpreted what you said about depressive disorders. However, I disagree that there is an abnormal and normal way to grieve, like I said at the start, to suggest people push their grief away or actively bury it is not heathly, at all. It leads to further problems, grieving takes as long as it takes. I'm sorry if this post is not very coherent, I must admit I am not having a very good morning this morning, having woken up form a dream about my ex in tears and I am rather exhausted right now, I have an immense amount of work due in at law school. Thank you for responding to my posts, I do appreciate that as a doctor you want to help.
tojaz Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Love your new avatar TJ! I won't get into the death/divorce debate -- a great quote from a book that I'm reading says "the very worst kind of grief is yours" -- but divorce also carries with it the added sting of rejection that death often does not. We have to live knowing that that person chose to leave us, and is merrily leading their life without us, often with someone else, and often to their great relief. Not debating at all SHB, agree 100% As ghoulish as it sounds, i believe it is easier to cope when a spouse passes on rather then leaving. It is a great loss of the person you love the most, but your love, and relationship never fall under attack. You get to keep your memories without the dark cloud of doubt hanging over them. TOJAZ
Author soheartbroken Posted December 9, 2009 Author Posted December 9, 2009 Not debating at all SHB, agree 100% As ghoulish as it sounds, i believe it is easier to cope when a spouse passes on rather then leaving. It is a great loss of the person you love the most, but your love, and relationship never fall under attack. You get to keep your memories without the dark cloud of doubt hanging over them. TOJAZ I wonder if this is why No Contact is supposed to be so effective. Because in this case the person is essentially dead to you.
FeelingLonely98 Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 I wonder if this is why No Contact is supposed to be so effective. Because in this case the person is essentially dead to you. Good Point. Whether I had NC or not It seems as if my W, or at least the wife I was with for ALL those wonderful years, it seems that she IS dead. SAD... (NC - Day 1 & counting today!)
TaraMaiden Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 NC doesn't make the person dead. You know all the way through, that this person is very much alive. NC is about protecting you, safeguarding your emotional responses and feelings, and preventing you from remaining stuck in a downward spiral of waiting, hoping, interpreting, wondering, reading-between-the-lines and hanging on to nothing..... NC isn't about cutting them off. It's about giving you something new, something to work on, and a means of finding, discovering and establishing who you are, after the storm has passed. It's not about them and closure. It's about you and opening.
curiou Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Hi Curiou Problem here is that while this is an intellectual debate for you, the purpose of me writing it was borne out of the hurt I felt when you told me I was abnormal for grieving and I was grieving in an abnormal way. You suggested that people who are grieving should actively work and push that grief aside by positive thinking and you said something about playing positive images in your mind? Below is one line taken from the first clinics website realting to grief I found on googling the term grief. "People can hinder the mourning process by avoiding painful thoughts, using thought stopping strategies, or by entertaining only pleasant thoughts of the deceased, idealising the dead, avoiding reminders of the dead, and using alcohol or drugs to desensitise." I think perhaps we have been on crossed wires, I misinterpreted what you said about depressive disorders. However, I disagree that there is an abnormal and normal way to grieve, like I said at the start, to suggest people push their grief away or actively bury it is not heathly, at all. It leads to further problems, grieving takes as long as it takes. I'm sorry if this post is not very coherent, I must admit I am not having a very good morning this morning, having woken up form a dream about my ex in tears and I am rather exhausted right now, I have an immense amount of work due in at law school. Thank you for responding to my posts, I do appreciate that as a doctor you want to help. Lisa, I wish I could convey how sorry I am to have hurt you. Looking back over my old posts I sound so clinical. I hate that you're feeling this way and hope things improve for you soon. I toyed briefly with the idea of a combined MD/JD program here in the States but ultimately decided I wouldn't use the JD much anyway. I have much respect for you and see so much potential in such an introspective, loving person. I hope you do well in your studies. I told another poster I would kill to be your age again at the top of my game. You're there right now!
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