soheartbroken Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 This is only the second thread I've ever started on LS. I'm feeling a bit bitter reading stories of WAW and WAHs. So, when a spouse walks away to "find him/herself", or to be with someone else: 1 person is supposedly happy (the WAS) 1 person is usually devastated (the left behind spouse) 1+ kids can be messed up (may not seem like it at the time, but it does impact them in the long run) If I see the math correctly, when children are involved, and the marriage is otherwise decent, more people suffer when a spouse walks away in order to find their own happiness, rather than sticking it out for the greater good. So, I may have offended some people by this post, but really, is our culture too individualistic?
karnak Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 This is only the second thread I've ever started on LS. I'm feeling a bit bitter reading stories of WAW and WAHs. So, I may have offended some people by this post, but really, is our culture too individualistic? Unfortunately, it is. The only way we can evade this: to find someone who's not selfish, who really loves us and who really wants to spend the rest of his / her life with us. Any other option seems to be doomed for failure, I fear.
FeelingLonely98 Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Excellent point shb. For WAWs it's all about them anyway. They do EVERYthing to avoid other's feelings. In my case here is the count of very unhappy people: - Me - her son - my two sons - her Mother - my Mother - my three sisters - her two Aunts - her four cousins Happy: - HER Count - Happy = 1, Unhappy = 15 (probably way more) / but who cares? she's happy! She's getting laid! She has a new housemate (who could be her grandson!) I would not want my STBXW to stay with me unhappy forever. But she never once tried to see if she could be happy. Just flipped off the switch and said BYE! GREAT POST!
SimplyBeingLoved Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 My take: It is not my responsibility, nor will it ever be, to make or keep my parent(s) happy, any extended family happy, my in-laws happy, or my friends happy. I do have responsibility for helping out with the happiness of my children. I can never MAKE them happy (boy oh boy I wish I could), but I can certainly take action or not that will have some bearing on their happiness. Outside of the issue of children... which yes I agree is very real... The whole "s/he is being selfish because s/he doesn't want to be in the relationship" thing... I never understood that. Why do we enter into a relationship in the first place? To increase our happiness, right? It IS selfish.. on BOTH ends... and rightfully so. Did you enter into your marriage just to please spouse, your mom, your friends, your sister? I sure hope not. It was for YOU... right??? Otherwise, why do it at all? It is just as selfish to demand that someone stay in a relationship from the perspective of the person being left behind, as it is for the wayward spouse. There will be plenty who talk about about selfless love, and giving, but, in my opinion, all selfless acts are actually self-oriented... that is... it feels GOOD to be selfless in those situations. The whole POINT of getting married is that it seen as a means of increasing personal satisfaction, right? Otherwise, why get married?
floridapad Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 FL98 - Just wanted to correct your count Happy - Attorneys MC's Seemingly Happy - WAW (Seemingly because affair relationships rarely survive). Unhappy - Everyone else. Karnak - Those options you laid out are usually there at the beginning of a relationship (first few years). You know that "in love" phase. Person can do no wrong. Love them for their imperfections etc etc. For me that is all a bunch of hormone feelings. When you can get through that reach disenchantment with your partner (which is inevetible in just about every relationship) and reach that level again without the hormones. WOW...That is love.
floridapad Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 SBL - Agree with you 100% except, when you have a family, a long term marriage, children etc etc it would selfishly behoove the WAW to ENSURE 10000% that their unhappiness or need to be happy can be resolved with in themselves without breaking up the family. Some WAS's, not all, fall into a funk and blame others for their unhappiness without really looking at themselves. Yes the spouse is partly to blame. It takes two. Selfishly they run but often times that may not be the right thing for them to do, selfishly speaking. Why do second marriages and third marriages fail at rates proportionatly higher than primary ones? Weren't the WAS's supposed to find happiness with a new love? Unless they are with an ogre of an H or W that is ABSOLUTELY unwilling to be flexible in anyway IMHO they should find the happiness with in themselves and work to grow in their primary relationship with their H or W, especially if children are involved.
Author soheartbroken Posted December 3, 2009 Author Posted December 3, 2009 SBL: that's why I was talking about relationships where children are involved. It used to be that you stayed together for the kids. But now you only stay together if you're blissfully happy. And if you aren't then go find someone new, damn it all! Just being cynical here. I'm sure there are valid reasons for leaving. Sometimes I think people just want too much these days. They want to be "in love" all the time, instead of content. They want that feeling of falling in love again, which only lasts for so long. Why not work, work, work on the relationship, and work on yourself? Some do try, but others give up without a fight. Or they just get bored and their eyes start to wander, oblivious to the consequences that their actions will have on other people. Ok. Done with my bitterness. Also, I'm mostly writing this because of stories that I've seen on here (e.g. brokenhearted), not because of my own. There were no children in my relationship. I don't really expect my ex to stay just for the sake of my own happiness.
FeelingLonely98 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 My take: It is not my responsibility, nor will it ever be, to make or keep my parent(s) happy, any extended family happy, my in-laws happy, or my friends happy. I do have responsibility for helping out with the happiness of my children. I can never MAKE them happy (boy oh boy I wish I could), but I can certainly take action or not that will have some bearing on their happiness. Outside of the issue of children... which yes I agree is very real... The whole "s/he is being selfish because s/he doesn't want to be in the relationship" thing... I never understood that. Why do we enter into a relationship in the first place? To increase our happiness, right? It IS selfish.. on BOTH ends... and rightfully so. Did you enter into your marriage just to please spouse, your mom, your friends, your sister? I sure hope not. It was for YOU... right??? Otherwise, why do it at all? It is just as selfish to demand that someone stay in a relationship from the perspective of the person being left behind, as it is for the wayward spouse. There will be plenty who talk about about selfless love, and giving, but, in my opinion, all selfless acts are actually self-oriented... that is... it feels GOOD to be selfless in those situations. The whole POINT of getting married is that it seen as a means of increasing personal satisfaction, right? Otherwise, why get married? NO NO NO NO NO sbl - You do not marry for happiness. Your marry for love and partnership and partly even for societal reasons. Actually biologically speaking humans are not unlike other primates in that it is unnatural to be monogamous for life. You commit to the spouse for life. Happiness comes from within. That is why WAWs run from what they NOW claim is an unhappy M. They run to an AP to find this happiness. They find the so-called happiness isn't there for long. They may finally get it or maybe they never get it that happiness comes from within. That is why it is always advisable for WAWs, if they must run, to run to be alone and find true happiness. But {sigh} they almost always directly from the spouses arms to an AP's arms. Nobody can make someone else happy. I loved my STBXW maybe more than anyone possibly could. I initially thought I would never be happy without her. BUT, I know now I will be happy without. I wanted her, she enriched me, but I never needed her. NEVER. I never needed her and I NEED her less now.
SimplyBeingLoved Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 NO NO NO NO NO sbl - You do not marry for happiness. Your marry for love and partnership and partly even for societal reasons. Maybe we are quibbling over semantics here? Are not love and partnership things that are meant to bring increased satisfaction in your life? To put it simply... increased happiness?
Author soheartbroken Posted December 3, 2009 Author Posted December 3, 2009 Perhaps FL98 is saying that you shouldn't marry in order to be happy - and then leave when you're not happy with your life and blame the marriage, and try to find someone else to make you happy. Rather, you should already be happy, and want a committed partner to share your life with. So you show this commitment to a partner through marriage. If one of you becomes unhappy, you don't then seek someone else to make you happy. You realize that happiness is within you, so you FIRST look into yourself to find that happiness again, instead of blaming the marriage and running away from it. And you try counseling, and give the partner a chance, and the marriage a chance (you don't soul search alone). But you look within you first. And you don't run away "to find yourself". You try to find yourself while still within the marriage, with communication with the partner, because you've committed to that person. But alas, this is not how life works.
Tom81 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 Perhaps FL98 is saying that you shouldn't marry in order to be happy - and then leave when you're not happy with your life and blame the marriage, and try to find someone else to make you happy. Rather, you should already be happy, and want a committed partner to share your life with. So you show this commitment to a partner through marriage. If one of you becomes unhappy, you don't then seek someone else to make you happy. You realize that happiness is within you, so you FIRST look into yourself to find that happiness again, instead of blaming the marriage and running away from it. And you try counseling, and give the partner a chance, and the marriage a chance (you don't soul search alone). But you look within you first. And you don't run away "to find yourself". You try to find yourself while still within the marriage, with communication with the partner, because you've committed to that person. But alas, this is not how life works. Well said, well said. I agree..you try to find yourself while still within the marriage...because you've committed to that person. Not running away from the marriage.
SimplyBeingLoved Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 Soheartbroken, Well put, I actually agree. I wonder under what conditions it makes sense to leave a marriage then (outside of the obvious abuse, adultery, addiction issues). I know I am not happy. How much of that is due to unhappiness with spouse vs. general unhappiness? I wonder about that every day. I often suspect, if two people grow apart in a way that makes them truly incompatible, and not just because one person is unhappy in general, the person who decides to leave, may try to convince themselves they are unhappy so they can get the energy / create the justification to leave. There is no "graceful/happy" exit strategy in this society. There always has to be a reason, and the reason has to be "bad." Even the gentlest reason, "we grew apart" is met with furrowed eyebrows.
2.50 a gallon Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 (edited) I heard a knock at my heart and I heard "I am here" And I asked, "Who are you?" And the knock said, "I am love" And I said, "I am not ready" And love said, "I am here" And I said, "I am already happy" And love said, "I am not here for your happiness" And I said, "I do not understand" And love said, "That is why I am here" We have evolved into a selfish "me" first society, he who has the most toys win. It is all about me. Love is not something we get. Love is a gift we give away. Love is also saddness and pain. Saddness and pain when our beloved is ill, when our beloved loses a parent, a sibling, a child, or a friend. Love is passion, love is sex, and when love matures, love is also cleaning the bathroom, love is also watching the Macy's parade, while the other channel has a football game. Love is watching a football game, while our beloved loving washes and folds our clothes. Love is taking our hard earned money and instead of buying the red sports car we always dreamed of, putting it into the college fund for our children. Love is teaching a child how to fish or play baseball. Love is helping our elderly parents and neighbors put up Christmas lights, as they can no longer go up and down a ladder. Love is so many things, but it is not selfish, and me first When love knocks, answer, but with the knowledge it is not about your happiness, it is about your growth into a better mature human being. Edited December 3, 2009 by 2.50 a gallon spelling
Gunny376 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 I heard a knock at my heart and I heard "I am here" And I asked, "Who are you?" And the knock said, "I am love" And I said, "I am not ready" And love said, "I am here" And I said, "I am already happy" And love said, "I am not here for your happiness" And I said, "I do not understand" And love said, "That is why I am here" We have evolved into a selfish "me" first society, he who has the most toys win. It is all about me. Love is not something we get. Love is a gift we give away. Love is also saddness and pain. Saddness and pain when our beloved is ill, when our beloved loses a parent, a sibling, a child, or a friend. Love is passion, love is sex, and when love matures, love is also cleaning the bathroom, love is also watching the Macy's parade, while the other channel has a football game. Love is watching a football game, while our beloved loving washes and folds our clothes. Love is taking our hard earned money and instead of buying the red sports car we always dreamed of, putting it into the college fund for our children. Love is teaching a child how to fish or play baseball. Love is helping our elderly parents and neighbors put up Christmas lights, as they can no longer go up and down a ladder. Love is so many things, but it is not selfish, and me first When love knocks, answer, but with the knowledge it is not about your happiness, it is about your growth into a better mature human being. Most outstanding post! You should read Felice Leonardo "Leo" Buscaglia, Ph.D. books about Love. He was the first person in the history of the world to offer a college course on the subject after the suicicde of one of his students. He reached the same conclusions as you.
Gunny376 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 If your looking to find happiness through another person? Be they your spouse, your husband, wife or SO? Your going to be sadly disappointed. The truth of the matter is? We're each responsible for our own happiness and we're about as happy as we make our minds up to be. "Marriage" in its original concept had very little if anything to do with "love" or "being in love" it was about pro-creation, passing on DNA (Off-spring) the medieval equivalent of Social Security (and still is in many parts of the world? Such as China ~ where to this day female fetus are aborted while male fetus aren't) Romance in its modern day concept didn't even appear until about the 12th or 14th century in France. (At least in literature) Even then it wasn't meant for one's spouse but for that of another. And it wasn't all about sex and adultery ~ although a lot of that took place. There are a lot of variables to the equation, but the ones that matter the most? Are those are those people that have commitment and those that don't. There are those who have values, morals, "codes" by which they live by, those that have determination, those that have the day to day perseverance. Those that think "Ten miles out!" Ahead of the game. We don't always get what we want? But we always get what we deserve! When I got married ~ and ended up divorced twelve years later? I got my @zz handed to me as she walked out tha' door! And I deserved it! Why? Because I was young, dumb, un-educated, in-experienced, didn't have a freaking clue and just plain old ignorant!
TaraMaiden Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 This is only the second thread I've ever started on LS. Actually, your profile states 12, in all... I'm feeling a bit bitter reading stories of WAW and WAHs. You've been feeling the same way since July.... has nothing changed, at all? So, when a spouse walks away to "find him/herself", or to be with someone else: 1 person is supposedly happy (the WAS) No. That's why they've walked away. To try to find happiness. 1 person is usually devastated (the left behind spouse) yes. And no. Sometimes. It depends on how really in love they were, or whether it was actually a needy dependency.... Then, they miss the presence of the loved one, but believe it to be love.... but if you look at how the WAS has behaved, in a lot of cases - well, you just don't do that to people you love, do you? 1+ kids can be messed up (may not seem like it at the time, but it does impact them in the long run) Actually, I have found through experience that it depends on the maturity of botht the adults and the kids..... If I see the math correctly, when children are involved, and the marriage is otherwise decent, more people suffer when a spouse walks away in order to find their own happiness, rather than sticking it out for the greater good. But that's the point. They don't believe it IS for the greater good. And what proof could you provide that it would be? It's hypothetical and unanswerable. If a person decides to remain in a marriage, even though every fibre of their being is telling them to end it and walk away, how is that staying for the greater good? That merely engenders personal sacrifice and resentment, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the greater good. Far from it. Sometimes, although we are quick to condemn the other partner for breaking up and walking away, there is a much larger picture of the whole scenario we are not privy to. So whilst we can only appraise situations at face value, we can only give opinions based on the text we see before us. If the leaving partner were to post their side, we would have a broader picture, a more balanced view, and two opposable distinct commentaries upon which to base our responses. It's happened here. A husband came in and told us all manner of distinctly distasteful things about his wife. Boy, did we ever lash into her and give her what for?! Guess what? She joined as a member, and gave her version. What a mess. Turns out he was just as bad..... and the thread descended into an online spat-slanging match, with each person trying to out-do the other..... There are always two sides to everything. And its understandable that people are biased, and give their version of events. That doesn't make them wrong. But it makes them jaded. of course, the dumper is going to come out in a poor light. The dumped is offended, hurt, wounded, injured, and feels the loss. But at one point, acceptance has to kick in. It's over. Move on, and make the best of what you have before you, now...... So, I may have offended some people by this post, but really, is our culture too individualistic? This has nothing to do with culture. It happens everywhere where people have the freedom to choose, and the liberty to decide. And the human animal is a selfish, self-serving creature, by-and-large. The sentiment "What's in it for me?" is strong, and the instinct to survive and be ahead is upfront. Couple that with the intellect and reasoning we have developped, as the human being, and (abused and manifested unskilfully) it wreaks havoc.
FeelingLonely98 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 Perhaps FL98 is saying that you shouldn't marry in order to be happy - and then leave when you're not happy with your life and blame the marriage, and try to find someone else to make you happy. Rather, you should already be happy, and want a committed partner to share your life with. So you show this commitment to a partner through marriage. If one of you becomes unhappy, you don't then seek someone else to make you happy. You realize that happiness is within you, so you FIRST look into yourself to find that happiness again, instead of blaming the marriage and running away from it. And you try counseling, and give the partner a chance, and the marriage a chance (you don't soul search alone). But you look within you first. And you don't run away "to find yourself". You try to find yourself while still within the marriage, with communication with the partner, because you've committed to that person. But alas, this is not how life works. Yes, shb, exactly what I meant. I get emotional and don't always get my point across clearly. (I still have a completely broken heart guys!)
FeelingLonely98 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 I heard a knock at my heart and I heard "I am here" And I asked, "Who are you?" And the knock said, "I am love" And I said, "I am not ready" And love said, "I am here" And I said, "I am already happy" And love said, "I am not here for your happiness" And I said, "I do not understand" And love said, "That is why I am here" We have evolved into a selfish "me" first society, he who has the most toys win. It is all about me. Love is not something we get. Love is a gift we give away. Love is also saddness and pain. Saddness and pain when our beloved is ill, when our beloved loses a parent, a sibling, a child, or a friend. Love is passion, love is sex, and when love matures, love is also cleaning the bathroom, love is also watching the Macy's parade, while the other channel has a football game. Love is watching a football game, while our beloved loving washes and folds our clothes. Love is taking our hard earned money and instead of buying the red sports car we always dreamed of, putting it into the college fund for our children. Love is teaching a child how to fish or play baseball. Love is helping our elderly parents and neighbors put up Christmas lights, as they can no longer go up and down a ladder. Love is so many things, but it is not selfish, and me first When love knocks, answer, but with the knowledge it is not about your happiness, it is about your growth into a better mature human being. Best post ever on LS. Gallon - you are a wise man.
FeelingLonely98 Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 No. That's why they've walked away. To try to find happiness. If a person decides to remain in a marriage, even though every fibre of their being is telling them to end it and walk away, how is that staying for the greater good? That merely engenders personal sacrifice and resentment, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the greater good. Far from it. TM - I have no solid proof - but I suspect most of the WAWs are not leaving Ms where they are tortured and totally resentful. After 3 & 1/2 mos. of this and reading and talking and listening and studying I think I have it figured out. Yes, the WAWs are usually selfish and leave a good M because they want more (better, bigger, sexier, ...). It is about THEM. It seems 99 times out of 100 an AP "opened" their eyes to what else is out there. In my case my STBXW sure played the part of a damned happy and in love partner / W for 16 years. (fun, laughter, support, togetherness, missing each other, sex, romance, family, ... I could go on). Has MLC and meets 18 yr old - Hmm, "I am no longer happy, I never was, ... I want more passion, MORE happiness! I am a WAW!!" (Me, me, me, ...) Read "2.50 Gallon"'s Love is knocking at the door post. IDK, I couldn't possibly have a valid opinion. I am a betrayed spouse. I must be wrong - TM must be right ... {sigh} me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
SimplyBeingLoved Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 But when you want your STBXW to stay... It's all about YOU. Not taking sides here. Just saying, both parties are "selfish." There can be no other way.
floridapad Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 SBL - I see your point but there is a difference when being selfish means severely hurting someone else, (i.e FL98 and her OWN son) vs being selfish and responsible at the same time. There are degrees of how destructive the selfishness can be. Wanting the STBXW to stay doesn't get to the crux of the situaiton. It's being blind sided by everything and not even discussing it or working through the issues so that they can BOTH be happy together...forever or "decide to divorce" as apposed to having an affair and running off. Having someone suddenly committ adultery and tell you they don't want you when every other day was "I love you" is not selfish on FL98's part it is more bewildering than all heck to a BS and extraordinarly hurtful. Being selfish and irresponsible about it. Big difference. I for one want my wife to stay for selfish reasons but also for the children and beleive it or not because I "think" she is making a mistake and will not be happy in the long run because of the affect on the family. Yes this is my opinion and not hers, but my W NEVER once communicated that things were wrong or that she was falling out of love with me. Not Once. Never looked at herself and said what do I need from this relationship. Confusing as hell.
karnak Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 Remember when we were kids and our parents told us not to do "this" or not to do "that", because we would get hurt, or would get into to trouble? Would we listen to them? No. We would just think: "They don't get the picture. I do. I will do what I want and everything will be fine." In the end, we would in fact get hurt, and learn from the mistake. Some people just have to make mistakes to learn, I'm afraid. Perhaps that's the case of men and women who desert marriages to find "love" in other people's arms.
SimplyBeingLoved Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 FP, I understand a bit where you are coming from, yes. For the purposes of the "debate" I'd like to leave the kids out of it (of course they are a big part of the equation, not discounting them at all.... just for purposes of the discussion, the point I'd like to make). I think a lot of what you are talking about is *how* the WAW handled the situation. And I totally agree, running away and being blindsided is awful. Just awful. It shows a complete lack of respect for the partner who one has spent many many years with, which, in a way, shows a lack for oneself. Because in a way we are all mirrors for each other. I chose my partner as a reflection as myself. Who I was at the time. Showing disrespect for my partner shows disrespect for *me* too. That all being said... I think it makes sense that if one *truly* wants out of a relationship, then there should be no relationship. Certainly when dating, if you were dating a very nice lady but realized you didn't want anything more, and needed to break it off for whatever reason.... the fact that she would be terribly terribly hurt, wouldn't make you obligated to keep dating her... would it? Of course a marriage is NOT the same as dating, don't want to get stuck on that, but it's the principle I'm talking about. It doesn't make sense to stay with a partner, if you *really* don't want to be with them... just because they'd be very very hurt if you left. I've brought this up before, and I'll bring it up again... why would anyone want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with them? It's not fair to either person in the relationship. Now, a lot of left-behind spouses are blindsided when their spouse walks away. I haven't walked away yet... I am STILL contemplating it... and my husband won't be completely blindsided if it does happen, because we've had at least 2-3 conversations so far where he knows of my unhappiness and possible intentions. I'm gonna be honest... I really believe in intuition. And here is the dilemma. My intuition tells me... no matter how much we "work" on it... no matter how much counseling we go to... even if he makes changes such as stopping drinking completely, etc.... my intuition tells me that my feelings won't change. That I will *never* have the feelings for him that I want to have for a man. And no, I'm not talking "flowery in-love" 1st stage love feelings either. I partly base this intuition on knowing him for 17 years. And here is the other thing. I really DON'T want to work on it. I have gone to counseling, etc. more out of a feeling of obligation, than a desire to work on it. I WANT to WANT to work on it... but I don't. I WISH I could ... but I can't muster up feelings out of nowhere. I wish I could explain this so you could understand it from my point of view. It's not out of desire to hurt at ALL. The closest analogy I can think of is, imagine one day you woke up and found yourself married to an acquaintance who you liked, and were friendly with, but had no real deep feelings for. And you were trying to create deep feelings for her cause you knew you "should." But they just weren't there. That is really the closest analogy I can think of. Yeah I know you will say love is not a feeling, it's a choice... but please try and imagine that scenario... because that's EXACTLY how it feels like to me. Add on top of that issues... such as excessive drinking and porn usage, and angry outbursts... and suddenly the balance is tipped... and one is staying in the marriage based only on negatives (fear of hurting others, fear of the unknown, guilt), rather than positives.
floridapad Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 Funny you should say that Karnak. My W said she needed to go through this (affair) to the end because she had to see it was a mistake for herself. She assimilated her position by saying she is the type of person that when someone tells her "the pool is cold don't go in, I need to feel the water for myself". Well yes dear that is fine but don't drag everyone else in with you (her parents, me, our children, her sister etc. etc.). Fact is she had NO idea things would end up where they are today, despite the fact that EVERYONE including her family and close friends told her it would. She like most all other WAS's with an affair partner think their affair is unique from everyone elses. I see in some infidelity sights how that is the running joke amongst infidelity counselors and actual WAS's. They ALL thought their affair is unique and special and that it will not end up like almost all the others. She is in hell because she had to dip her toe in the water and realizes and has said she will have to live with it forever. Unfortunately so will everyone that actually loves her and everyone she cares for.
karnak Posted December 3, 2009 Posted December 3, 2009 This has nothing to do with culture. It happens everywhere where people have the freedom to choose, and the liberty to decide. And the human animal is a selfish, self-serving creature, by-and-large. The sentiment "What's in it for me?" is strong, and the instinct to survive and be ahead is upfront. Couple that with the intellect and reasoning we have developped, as the human being, and (abused and manifested unskilfully) it wreaks havoc. Very well written. Most people are indeed selfish, materialistic and manipulative. And they can fool us for a loooooooong time. There's a poster at LS whose wife had an affair during 25 years!! And all the time she said she loved him blablablablablabla Mea culpa, mea culpa... I never cheated on any girlfriend, and I've never robbed or tricked anyone. But I admit that several times in my life I've associated with people whom I did not like and whom I sometimes despised. Yet, some of these people thought I was their great, great friend and that I enjoyed being in their company. Then, you may ask, "why did you associate with these people"? Well, because I had low self-esteem issues, I didn't want to antagonise them or I just thought I had something to gain from their company. Like having to put up with stupid work colleagues and pretending to be friendly, for instance. Later, when I no longer had to associate with those persons I just cut contact with them. Was it immoral of me to do that? Yes, it was. I was being an hypocrite. It was wrong. And I don't intend to repeat such actions. Nowadays, I try to be true to myself and not associate with people who I don't like or respect. But this is just to say that I also was once selfish and lied about my feelings. Just as some people do in their marriages, I'm afraid. I mean, what reasons did Tiger Woods had to cheat on his pregnant, beautiful wife (if the stories are true, that is). None. He was just being a selfish bastard, who put his feelings above his wife's. Sorry... perhaps I'm just digressing here.
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