Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 It's been a while since I've been on here. I've been chugging along in the aftermath of a second breakup since I first started posting here, and now I've hit a crossroads. I'm interested in knowing wise LSers' thoughts. So in the beginning of 2008 I met a guy who moved very fast and wanted me to move from the east coast to Colorado after knowing me only a month. There were a lot of red flags--him being 49, for instance, and never having had a long-term relationship; his "double speak" wherein he'd valorize "The Chase" of random women on the one hand, and rhapsodize about commitment and deep partnership, etc., on the other; his pushiness without really hearing me out on how I envisioned the relationship proceeding. But I trusted him, and so I moved, and just like he wanted, I moved with no driver's license, no car, no job, and knowing no one in my new city but him. He was so ardent that I was The One, etc....but then after less than a year he threw me out of his house, leaving me scrambling to find a job, a place to live, get a car, etc. All year with him, the only people I got to know for a long while were his friends. He has some truly lovely friends, and I was genuinely invested in getting to know each of them and developing relationships with them. So when we broke up, I made a decision different from how I'd have handled things in the past: in the past, I'd have just quietly packed a Uhaul and left town. This time, I decided I wasn't going to let this breakup mean the severance of the community I'd begun to build, and so I have continued to cultivate friendships with a select few of my ex's friends that seemed as into me as I was into them. But now that over 4 months have passed since the breakup, I find myself in a quandary. I have come to the conclusion, based on reflection on the relationship I had with him as well as on other things I've found out about him (for example, NONE of his friends seem to think all that highly of him), that my ex was, through and through, a sleeze. A narcissist so burrowed in his myriad neuroses and self-loathing that he can't even take notice of the people in his life. He treated me badly and made short work of what had seemed a promising relationship, and pulled a really nasty stunt in the end that I believe was engineered to get ME to pull the pllug on the relationship so that HE could look like the "victim." I've just come to the point where I feel like I really can't be friends with people who are friends with him. It's so clear to me that he's not a good person, and what I'm struggling with is that from others' perspectives--ie, his friends--he's not considered to be that great a guy. And yet, two of the most vociferous naysayers of my ex continue to remain friends with him. It makes me feel degraded. His friends have seen him do to countless women what he did to me, and to make short work of that is really awful, imo. He may be "the friend who can't maintain romantic relationships" in their eyes...but I feel disgust that a grown man fairly advanced in years still exhibits patterns that continue to hurt so many people. He really, really hurt me, took advantage of me, etc. ANd I can't help feeling that anyone who is my friend would not keep contact with someone who would do that way. It's late and I'm not being very articulate...but this is a start, I guess, and I can clarify where needed. I just feel exhausted with being a "newbie" in this city and feeling like no one really has my back, and I'm torn between continuing to try to make this work, cultivating friends old and new, and just finally throwing in the towel and getting away from this place to be in a community where I don't feel so humiliated all the time. I guess I'm really strugling with the fact that my ex can get away with what he did to me, and no one is going to make a strong stand against it. I'm not sure what I'm asking, really; I'm just really at a loss and I wonder if others can relate to my situation.
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 Maybe I'm asking, in part, if it's fair to say to the two sets of friends with whom I've become close since the breakup that I'm really uncomfortable with their continued friendship with my ex, for x and y reasons. I don't like giving ultimatums...but then I don't like always feeling shortchanged, either.
delirious Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 You can't police who your friends are friends with. People will choose their own friends. Unfortunately there are some people in this world who are complete b.......s but are still able to put on a persona. Is this guy charismatic? I have known a couple of people who had others totally fooled with their charm and personality, despite being totally manipulative but they always get found out in the end. There is no need for you to do anything or fuss about whether he is getting away with anything. People have all kinds of friends, some close, some drinking buddies, it is not to say they do not acknowledge what he has done to you. But it would seem rather playgroundish to expect them to give him up because you want them to.
freestyle Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 The bottom line is: they were his friends first. I feel it would be unfair for you to ask them to ditch him on your behalf. Pressing the issue may likely end up in them resenting you, and you might end up making yourself look bad. I'v.e been it that position before, where friends of mine had dramas with each other, and wanted me to choose sides. I never appreciated being thrust into that position. I learned years ago to say, "hey, I'm Switzerland........................ neutral country, you guys will have to duke it yourselves........." .Leave me out of it, please. I will judge people based on my experience with them, not based on looking through someone else's eyes. I'm sorry the R didn't work out for you, and that you got hurt.Hopefully you'll come away from it a little wiser, if that's any consolation. I think you'll be better off making new friends. I know it's hard when you're in a strange city, been there, done that. And by the way, there's no reason you should feel humiliated because of the way he treated you. I'm not meaning to invalidate your pain, what I mean is, his actions only reflect poorly on him.
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 You can't police who your friends are friends with. People will choose their own friends. Unfortunately there are some people in this world who are complete b.......s but are still able to put on a persona. Is this guy charismatic? I have known a couple of people who had others totally fooled with their charm and personality, despite being totally manipulative but they always get found out in the end. There is no need for you to do anything or fuss about whether he is getting away with anything. People have all kinds of friends, some close, some drinking buddies, it is not to say they do not acknowledge what he has done to you. But it would seem rather playgroundish to expect them to give him up because you want them to. Bingo--he is a very charismatic personality, which is how he managed to fool me. And he is very manipulative; he knows exactly how he needs to "perform" in order to keep himself ingratiated to people who can do things for him. He is most decidedly NOT a good friend, and no friend of his has said he is. Which is why I feel confused, partly. And that's the thing: normally, I would NEVER try to push people to end a friendship as a demonstration of loyalty to me, as well as a demonstration of their own integrity. But in this case, I don't feel the desire is playgroundish in the least--although I certainly see what you mean, and in other circumstances, would agree with you 100%. The reason I don't feel it's playgroundish is twofold: on the one hand, ALL of these friends have not only openly acknowledged that he treated me poorly, and not only that, they've also all described manifold ways in which he hasn't and isn't good to THEM. Which leaves me feeling like, well, if that's the case, then why do you maintain the friendship? And then, I also don't feel it's playgroundish because I'm NOT "just another woman" who was hurt at the hands of this man--and nor were all the women previous to me. We are real people who bear the marks of deep hurt at the hands of this man who doesn't have the capacity to care meaningfully and consistently about ANYONE, including himself. I don't think anyone should make short work of the kind of hurt he has inflicted on people, and then he expects, as in the case with me, that his friends will clean up the mess. He never lifted a finger to help me. I am now roommates with the daughter of one set of mutual friends. These friends have been truly lovely to me, and I like them so much, as I did from the first day I met them. They are vociferous about how little respect they have for my ex...yet they still maintain a superficial contact. I can't help feeling that if it were their daughter, my roommate, who had gotten involved with and screwed over by this man, somehow they'd find it a no-brainer to just totally sever the relationship with him. Obviously I don't expect to be held on a par with their daughter in importance, but the fact that it would be possible to sever the relationship if I WERE on a higher level of importance feels to me like a statement (if intentional) that my importance to them as a person is negligible, and my feelings, my hurt, something that can be dismissed. The thing is that we've already made a lot of progress towards establishing a separate friendship. And so I don't know how to proceed. I want to be authentic; I want to stick up for myself; but I don't want that effort to be construed as "playgroundish" in any way. It's a complicated situation and I don't know how to deal with it.
turnstone Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 How does it impact on you who they are friends with?
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 The bottom line is: they were his friends first. I feel it would be unfair for you to ask them to ditch him on your behalf. Pressing the issue may likely end up in them resenting you, and you might end up making yourself look bad. I'v.e been it that position before, where friends of mine had dramas with each other, and wanted me to choose sides. I never appreciated being thrust into that position. I learned years ago to say, "hey, I'm Switzerland........................ neutral country, you guys will have to duke it yourselves........." .Leave me out of it, please. I will judge people based on my experience with them, not based on looking through someone else's eyes. I'm sorry the R didn't work out for you, and that you got hurt.Hopefully you'll come away from it a little wiser, if that's any consolation. I think you'll be better off making new friends. I know it's hard when you're in a strange city, been there, done that. And by the way, there's no reason you should feel humiliated because of the way he treated you. I'm not meaning to invalidate your pain, what I mean is, his actions only reflect poorly on him. Thank you. I appreciate your words and I agree with what you're saying. I am doing all I can to get out there and make friends of my own, in addition to nurturing friendships begun with some of my ex's friends. In fact, for my birthday last September, I threw a celebratory dinner that was comprised of half friends I made on my own, and half mutual friends. It was lovely, and made me feel like I've made good progress in this city. But...here's more specifics on my situation. My ex, who works in mental health, took advantage of his psychiatrist friend J. to get a prescription written to him for an anti-bipolar drug. This was near the end of our relationship. He told J. that the relationship was rocky and J. said that both of us should be on this med. He wrote the prescription for my ex with the idea that my ex would take it and talk to me about my possibly going on the meds also. But instead, my ex came home with the bottle of pills, slapped them down on the coffee table, and told me that that prescription was for me and if I didn't take it, the relationship was over. I was pretty appalled. Well, come to find out (I clarified this all with J. just a few weeks ago), J. NEVER intended that prescription for me. So my ex lied to us both. Hit with the revelation that my ex had obviously manipulated J. and the situation, J. said, in his typical level way, "Well, I guess it just goes to show that you can't trust colleagues with taking care of their personal lives." J. and his wife, S. are two of my absolute most favorite people. They live in a resort town about 2 hours away from where I and my ex live. Since the breakup, they have been very supportive and clearly demonstrated their interest in our continuing a separate friendship. They've had me come visit 3 times since this summer. At one point, S. said to me that I could come live with them and I'd said, "Don't saky that unless you really mean it or I might just take you up on it!" And then, it so happened that just this past month after months of trying, I FINALLY found a job, but it's seasonal and in their town. I asked them if it was okay if I could stay with them on the days I'm working (it's part-time). They said yes. But then another friend, who's friends with S. and J., told me that S. had written her an email where she expressed excitement that GreenCove would be spending a lot of time with them, but also said, "GreenCove's ex also likes to come here to visit; I'm going to have to make sure their visits don't overlap." For some reason, that really hurt. I mean, she wrote this email RIGHT after discovering that my ex took advantage of them. My ex hasn't visited since early August, and before that, when we were together, we'd visited them exactly twice, once the previous November, and once the September before that. It's hard to convey why, but on a visceral level it bothers me that they're considering him to visit when I'm the one who has struggled to find a job, found one not in my city, and all this due to the fact that my ex just summarily threw me out of his house taking no responsibility for his role in my coming out here in the way i did. I'm probably not conveying the pieces of the situation very well.... But I can't help feeling like no matter what, he gets away with anything, when I, who while not perfect genuinely try to treat people with regard, am always a second-class citizen.
Agoraphobianebula Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) I really do feel for you and can see that you have a ligitimate gripe through your posts but you have to take a minute, stand back and look at this as objectively as you can. Right now, you are too emotionally invested and too close to the situation to see clearly. People make and remain friends for different reasons. People get different sustenance out of friendships. This means that even the worst people in the world can still have friends because these friends relate better to certain parts of their personalities than others. Human beings are a sum of complex, and often contradictory parts. You see your ex as the devil incarnate but you neglect to see the humanity in your ex. You neglect to see the complexities that his humanity affords him. Not only that, you also neglect to see the complexities of his friends. Forexample, I can probably guess that your ex is this charismatic, fun loving, life of the party. Maybe people enjoy being around him because he can always be counted on for a good time. For some of his friends, that's enough to make him qualify as a friend, (once again, remember people look for different things in their friends). Or maybe he's a really good listener or he's rescued some of these friends from jams through the course of their friendship. You don't know them that intimately, you are not all that privy to their history. Some people also operate on the "live and let live" policy. Your friend is a grown man not a child, he's responsible for his life and his choices and it's not anyone's place to tell him what to do. Others can also argue that you brought this on yourself, you moved across the country with nothing to be with a man you barely knew. What did you expect was going to happen? You thought you had found your knight in shining armour that would rescue you from the world? One can easily conclude that you set a trap for yourself and you should start taking responsibility for that instead of trying to dictate who should and shouldn't be friends with said man. And lastly, you also have a part to play here, you choose to be friends with people whose choices in friends you find objectionable. How about you turn the mirror inwards and find out just where your threshold in standards for friendships is. You can't dictate how people should act or react to any situation. You only have control over what YOU would do. Your ex is manipulative and he seems to be one of those people that can get away with murder. You fell for his charms and got burned, but yet, you insist on maintaining ties with him through friends, so that you can continue to be a victim. Instead of picking yourself up, chucking your relationship up to a lesson well learned, dusting yourself off and moving along. His friends are NOT the only people in the world, you don't have to be friends with them. Edited December 2, 2009 by Agoraphobianebula
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 I really do feel for you and can see that you have a ligitimate gripe through your posts but you have to take a minute, stand back and look at this as objectively as you can. Right now, you are too emotionally invested and too close to the situation to see clearly. People make and remain friends for different reasons. People get different sustenance out of friendships. This means that even the worst people in the world can still have friends because these friends relate better to certain parts of their personalities than others. Human beings are a sum of complex, and often contradictory parts. You see your ex as the devil incarnate but you neglect to see the humanity in your ex. You neglect to see the complexities that his humanity affords him. Not only that, you also neglect to see the complexities of his friends. Forexample, I can probably guess that your ex is this charismatic, fun loving, life of the party. Maybe people enjoy being around him because he can always be counted on for a good time. For some of his friends, that's enough to make him qualify as a friend, (once again, remember people look for different things in their friends). Or maybe he's a really good listener or he's rescued some of these friends from jams through the course of their friendship. You don't know them that intimately, you are not all that privy to their history. Some people also operate on the "live and let live" policy. Your friend is a grown man not a child, he's responsible for his life and his choices and it's not anyone's place to tell him what to do. Others can also argue that you brought this on yourself, you moved across the country with nothing to be with a man you barely knew. What did you expect was going to happen? You thought you had found your knight in shining armour that would rescue you from the world? One can easily conclude that you set a trap for yourself and you should start taking responsibility for that instead of trying to dictate who should and shouldn't be friends with said man. And lastly, you also have a part to play here, you choose to be friends with people whose choices in friends you find objectionable. How about you turn the mirror inwards and find out just where your threshold in standards for friendships is. You can't dictate how people should act or react to any situation. You only have control over what YOU would do. Your ex is manipulative and he seems to be one of those people that can get away with murder. You fell for his charms and got burned, but yet, you insist on maintaining ties with him through friends, so that you can continue to be a victim. Instead of picking yourself up, chucking your relationship up to a lesson well learned, dusting yourself off and moving along. His friends are NOT the only people in the world, you don't have to be friends with them. "Live and let live." "You brought this on yourself." I think that would be a pretty callous way to look at it. I take responsibility for my choice every day, as I've had a massive clean up to do in the aftermath of this relationship. I went in with my eyes as wide open as I was capable. But you know, yes, I chose to trust him, I believed in him and that's not anything but a good thing. Sometimes you trust, you lose; other times, you win. But for anyone to just shrug and say, well, it's your own damn fault is downright unkind. I'm all for live and let live, but when you see someone mistreat a person and choose to look away, you're perpetuating the problem, whether that's your intent or not. Personally, I wouldn't want a friend in my circle who is so poor in relationships that I have to witness one woman after another being brought to dinner parties, etc., many of which I host, and then thrown away without so much as a care. Now, I know those are MY values and perhaps others don't have those values, but I guess I'm feelikng a little like, well, that's just not good enough for me. Just because I'm trying to further friendships with people in the aftermath of a breakup doesn't mean I'm not picking myself up and dusting myself off. Without knowing what I've done in the past 4 months to move my life forward, that's a bit unfair of you to say. All my tenacity means is that I genuinely cared about these people, felt sympatico with them and excited to have them in my life, and I've been loathe to just throw it all away after putting in such an effort. At first, I thought I would just slink away...and I put my energies into a DIFFERENT choice. Not so that I could hold on to my ex, but so that I could go forward continuing to build a community rather than starting completely from scratch yet again. I'm too old to just throw people away, and if there's willingness on both sides to develop a relationship under new circumstances and definitions, then why not? I'm just exploring some other feelings I have as a consequence of that. I want friendships and a life out here where I feel affirmed, loved, supported...and I'm questioning whether that's indeed possible with people who choose to remain friends with my ex. Especially after agreeing with me so vociferously as to the limitations of his character. And I think it's fine to keep a friend on just as some superficial gratification...until it's made evident that the person truly is of bad character through and through. As for not recognizing the humanity in this man, I got involved with him precisely BECAUSE I trusted that beneath his degrading comments about women and his narcissism and questionable ethics was a man who at heart was good and oriented towards trying to do the right thing. In the relationship I continuously made excuses for him right up until he tried to force me to take meds...and even THEN I stuck around in an effort to understand where he might be coming from before I judged his actions to be the egregious professional and personal violation that they are. Sometimes recognizing the "humanity" of a person is to recognize the reality that they are so fundamentally lacking that their "humanity" is questionable.
turnstone Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 Hang on, you move across country to be with a guy who makes degrading comments about women, who's narcisstic and has questionable ethics. You don't get a job, a car or your own friends until you split up and you don't actually leave him even when he tries to force you to take meds, he has to kick you out. Hmmmmm.... its sounding more and more that you need to be grateful his friends haven't dumped you.
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 Hang on, you move across country to be with a guy who makes degrading comments about women, who's narcisstic and has questionable ethics. You don't get a job, a car or your own friends until you split up and you don't actually leave him even when he tries to force you to take meds, he has to kick you out. Hmmmmm.... its sounding more and more that you need to be grateful his friends haven't dumped you. Every day I was here from the first day I arrived, I have send out at minimum one resume and cover letter per day. I continued working remotely for my company up through the end of 2008. I had no inkling that the economy would tank right after my arrival here. I also urged my partner that we should wait until the end of 2008 for me to move, so that I had not only a job in place, but also a separate home. See, that's why it's unfair to just throw out a judgment when clearly on a forum like this you can't know the whole story. I was VERY clear with him that I was more comfortable having a job and house in place first, and he cajoled and pushed and wheedled and promised and even psychoanalyzed me saying that I have trouble accepting help and trusting and while it was unwise on my part, ultimately, he managed to wear me down, I gave in, and I moved on HIS timetable and under HIS desired conditions. I gave over to trusting him more than I ever trusted anyone. He was eloquent on how he now kjnew what he wanted and how he valued commitment so mjuch and how he knew that I was the one, and I chose to believe him. And in fact, one set of mutual friends, a married couple, were long distance just like we were before they got married, and the wife moved across the country just as I did, with no job or anythign in place...and here they are 15 years later, married, happy, etc. So I don't think there would be much cause for a judgment of ME. And yes, he did manifest some red flags from the very begiknning but his charm and energy muddled what was really there (which is to say, what is lacking). I went on foot to every retail store I could think of, every restaurant, and gave my resume and applied online, and I got nothing. It's been very unfortunate...and certainly not my fault. Just the way the ball has bounced for me so far. For me, and many other people known to me. I don't see grounds for dumping someone just because they've struggled to find a job. it's made doubly hard when you're in a new city where you don't have a network.
Agoraphobianebula Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 However callous you think it is, I'm telling you how others, especially your friends, may perceive how things unfolded between you and your ex. Which is what makes it easy for them to be friends with the both of you. Many of them probably think that you did do yourself an injustice by becoming this involved with a man you hardly knew. Which means the blame doesn't all lie in your ex's corner, both of you share the blame/responsibility. So while you point fingers at him, labeling him the monster, they could be pointing fingers at the both of you, which in turn, makes it easier to stay neutral. This is not as complicated as you want to make it seem. Your so called friends have seen him mistreat countless women, including you, yet, they chose to remain friends with him. Their life, their choice. You have seen how your friends handle his mistreatment of women and yet, you choose to remain friends with them. Your life, your choice. You are demonstrating that your values are different from your friends so why do you want to maintain any kind of friendship with them? perhaps maybe because you enjoy other parts of their personality? they are warm, welcoming, they invited you into their homes, etc? See how this mirrors their relationship with your ex? Once again, people are a sum of parts. You look at your ex through the narrow lens of his mistreatment of you. I'm guessing their lens is a little bit wider and this makes them a little more tolerant of his misbehavior. Lastly, recognizing the humanity in someone is NOT only recognizing the good in them. It is also recognizing the bad. In fact, moreso the bad than the good. Recognizing that they are fallible, they will make mistakes and dissapoint, why? because they are human and are therefore, prone to such things.
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 I did make a lot of excuses for him in the relationship. I kept choosing to see the best in him, until I couldn't do it anymore. Until I finally came to see that ultimately, there was no there there. Simply, he is not a good human being. It took me a long, hard haul to arrive at that revelation; I do not easily give up on people I've ever cared about. But now that I see what I see, I guess it's hard to see others still deluded as to the level of care he's capable of towards anyone. Maybe that's a big part of what I'm grappling with.
mem11363 Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) GC, Have you ever considered the parallels in this situation? And have you ever thought that perhaps: - These people are friends with your ex because he is fun and charming even if he is also at times deceitful and so forth - high on fun low on integrity - And they are friends with you because you are (I am guessing): Kind and considerate and fun Young and attractive and delightful Think about how this R started. You move to a distant city after one month - you have no car because you have no money. His appeal - despite being way older is he is stable and successful. And one amplifier for you at the end that makes you much angrier - is that you were still totally dependent on him financially at the year end. No job, no car etc. So to his friends he comes across as an aging playboy and his girlfriends, as nice and kind and loving as they might be, appear to be looking for a sugar daddy. They don't see you as the innocent blameless victim here. You were both hunting, he was hunting youth and you were hunting money. R's with large age spreads usually end badly either with the older person getting hammered emotionally and financially after they lose their heart and throw caution to the wind or the young person getting discarded and thrown back into the financially unstable situation from which they came. It's been a while since I've been on here. I've been chugging along in the aftermath of a second breakup since I first started posting here, and now I've hit a crossroads. I'm interested in knowing wise LSers' thoughts. So in the beginning of 2008 I met a guy who moved very fast and wanted me to move from the east coast to Colorado after knowing me only a month. There were a lot of red flags--him being 49, for instance, and never having had a long-term relationship; his "double speak" wherein he'd valorize "The Chase" of random women on the one hand, and rhapsodize about commitment and deep partnership, etc., on the other; his pushiness without really hearing me out on how I envisioned the relationship proceeding. But I trusted him, and so I moved, and just like he wanted, I moved with no driver's license, no car, no job, and knowing no one in my new city but him. He was so ardent that I was The One, etc....but then after less than a year he threw me out of his house, leaving me scrambling to find a job, a place to live, get a car, etc. All year with him, the only people I got to know for a long while were his friends. He has some truly lovely friends, and I was genuinely invested in getting to know each of them and developing relationships with them. So when we broke up, I made a decision different from how I'd have handled things in the past: in the past, I'd have just quietly packed a Uhaul and left town. This time, I decided I wasn't going to let this breakup mean the severance of the community I'd begun to build, and so I have continued to cultivate friendships with a select few of my ex's friends that seemed as into me as I was into them. But now that over 4 months have passed since the breakup, I find myself in a quandary. I have come to the conclusion, based on reflection on the relationship I had with him as well as on other things I've found out about him (for example, NONE of his friends seem to think all that highly of him), that my ex was, through and through, a sleeze. A narcissist so burrowed in his myriad neuroses and self-loathing that he can't even take notice of the people in his life. He treated me badly and made short work of what had seemed a promising relationship, and pulled a really nasty stunt in the end that I believe was engineered to get ME to pull the pllug on the relationship so that HE could look like the "victim." I've just come to the point where I feel like I really can't be friends with people who are friends with him. It's so clear to me that he's not a good person, and what I'm struggling with is that from others' perspectives--ie, his friends--he's not considered to be that great a guy. And yet, two of the most vociferous naysayers of my ex continue to remain friends with him. It makes me feel degraded. His friends have seen him do to countless women what he did to me, and to make short work of that is really awful, imo. He may be "the friend who can't maintain romantic relationships" in their eyes...but I feel disgust that a grown man fairly advanced in years still exhibits patterns that continue to hurt so many people. He really, really hurt me, took advantage of me, etc. ANd I can't help feeling that anyone who is my friend would not keep contact with someone who would do that way. It's late and I'm not being very articulate...but this is a start, I guess, and I can clarify where needed. I just feel exhausted with being a "newbie" in this city and feeling like no one really has my back, and I'm torn between continuing to try to make this work, cultivating friends old and new, and just finally throwing in the towel and getting away from this place to be in a community where I don't feel so humiliated all the time. I guess I'm really strugling with the fact that my ex can get away with what he did to me, and no one is going to make a strong stand against it. I'm not sure what I'm asking, really; I'm just really at a loss and I wonder if others can relate to my situation. Edited December 2, 2009 by mem11363
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 I wasn't hunting money. He doesn't have much, to begin with. Also, I wasn't looking to come here with no job and no separate place to live. What I was hunting was someone, unlike my ex before him, who was old enough and weathered enough and aware enough to know the value of a partnership and of the family you create. He was so eloquent and ardent, I trusted him.
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 Thanks for the replies. Very thoughtful, and very helpful. This might be the crux for me: let's say you're in a relationship that ends, and the partner really treated you badly. All those who love you will stand by your side, and vilify him (or her). My mother, for instance, when she and my jerkish step-dad divorced, had this happen to her: a mutual friend whose money was being managed by my step-dad terminated their business relationship and friendship and told my step-dad, "I don't like what you did." ANd he stayed staunchly on my mother's side, inviting her to dinners and events with him and his wife, etc. He made a judgment call and acted firmly upon it so that there was NO question where his loyalties lay. I guess that's what I'm hoping/wishing/looking for. I think what my ex did--the full spectrum of his behaviors--was manipulative and childish and downright cruel enough that there should be some kind of judgment on him. It's more than just the foibles of humanity. So what I'm most unsure and anxious about is my friends' loyalty to me. I entered unknown territory in electing to stick around and try to salvage a separate relationship with those of my ex's friends that I most clicked with, and I don't know what values / standards to apply in this situation as opposed to a situation with people who started off as just YOUR friends.
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 However callous you think it is, I'm telling you how others, especially your friends, may perceive how things unfolded between you and your ex. Which is what makes it easy for them to be friends with the both of you. Many of them probably think that you did do yourself an injustice by becoming this involved with a man you hardly knew. Which means the blame doesn't all lie in your ex's corner, both of you share the blame/responsibility. So while you point fingers at him, labeling him the monster, they could be pointing fingers at the both of you, which in turn, makes it easier to stay neutral. This is not as complicated as you want to make it seem. Your so called friends have seen him mistreat countless women, including you, yet, they chose to remain friends with him. Their life, their choice. You have seen how your friends handle his mistreatment of women and yet, you choose to remain friends with them. Your life, your choice. You are demonstrating that your values are different from your friends so why do you want to maintain any kind of friendship with them? perhaps maybe because you enjoy other parts of their personality? they are warm, welcoming, they invited you into their homes, etc? See how this mirrors their relationship with your ex? Once again, people are a sum of parts. You look at your ex through the narrow lens of his mistreatment of you. I'm guessing their lens is a little bit wider and this makes them a little more tolerant of his misbehavior. Lastly, recognizing the humanity in someone is NOT only recognizing the good in them. It is also recognizing the bad. In fact, moreso the bad than the good. Recognizing that they are fallible, they will make mistakes and dissapoint, why? because they are human and are therefore, prone to such things. There's a lot ot meditate on in what you write here. Thanks :-) You hit the nail on one thing that maybe is really getting up my craw, or whatever that saying is: that that recognition of a person's positive and negative traits is precisely what my ex failed to grant to me. He condemned me publicly and drastically for my foibles--how quickly I went from the love of his life to yet another on his long list of unsuitable women that to be with would be "settling"...and as he told me once, he always has sworn he'd never "settle." I paid a dear and public price for not being perfect, and I know it's my "fault" that I permitted myself to be in such a precarious situation (believe me, I periodically have beaten myself up for that plenty), but he has made me really PAY for my mistakes, while to merely relate to him on the most basic level requires the overlooking of a lot. I guess I just feel so powerless in this whole situation that I find myself wishing someone with more power than me (eg, one of his friends), would really give him a hard line. And I don't know whether I"m wrong in that or not.
Agoraphobianebula Posted December 2, 2009 Posted December 2, 2009 (edited) There's a lot ot meditate on in what you write here. Thanks :-) You hit the nail on one thing that maybe is really getting up my craw, or whatever that saying is: that that recognition of a person's positive and negative traits is precisely what my ex failed to grant to me. He condemned me publicly and drastically for my foibles--how quickly I went from the love of his life to yet another on his long list of unsuitable women that to be with would be "settling"...and as he told me once, he always has sworn he'd never "settle." I paid a dear and public price for not being perfect, and I know it's my "fault" that I permitted myself to be in such a precarious situation (believe me, I periodically have beaten myself up for that plenty), but he has made me really PAY for my mistakes, while to merely relate to him on the most basic level requires the overlooking of a lot. I guess I just feel so powerless in this whole situation that I find myself wishing someone with more power than me (eg, one of his friends), would really give him a hard line. And I don't know whether I"m wrong in that or not. Maybe you should just take one for the team here and let life dish out the merited punishment to your ex. What is that song "everybody plays the fool sometime...." He'll eventually get what's coming to him, with or without your help. it's quite obvious you are still hurting, and thus still holding on. You are not allowing yourself to move on, you are expecting his/your friends to be your advocates, to exact some kind of punishment on him for what he did to you. But that is not possible and is totally outside your control. It shouldn't even be your focus right now because it only allows you to remain a victim..his victim. The best revenge is living well. He hurt you, yes..well.. welcome to life, we've all been there. Accept responsibility for your part in the whole mess, pick up and move on with your life. Leave him to his shenanigans because believe me, every dog has his day, he'll get what's coming to him. It's the reason why I question your insistence on maintaining friendships with his friends in the first place, especially when the fallout from this relationship is still so emotionally raw for you. It makes one wonder if your motives are not sinister in some way. Why not take the time to tend your healing before revisiting the friendships? You may see that as running away, but I see it as regrouping. The people that constantly remind you of how awful he treated you are not the people you need to be around right now. Edited December 2, 2009 by Agoraphobianebula
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 Maybe you should just take one for the team here and let life dish out the merited punishment to your ex. What is that song "everybody plays the fool sometime...." He'll eventually get what's coming to him, with or without your help. it's quite obvious you are still hurting, and thus still holding on. You are not allowing yourself to move on, you are expecting his/your friends to be your advocates, to exact some kind of punishment on him for what he did to you. But that is not possible and is totally outside your control. It shouldn't even be your focus right now because it only allows you to remain a victim..his victim. The best revenge is living well. He hurt you, yes..well.. welcome to life, we've all been there. Accept responsibility for your part in the whole mess, pick up and move on with your life. Leave him to his shenanigans because believe me, every dog has his day, he'll get what's coming to him. It's the reason why I question your insistence on maintaining friendships with his friends in the first place, especially when the fallout from this relationship is still so emotionally raw for you. It makes one wonder if your motives are not sinister in some way. Why not take the time to tend your healing before revisiting the friendships? You may see that as running away, but I see it as regrouping. Again, some awesome wise stuff you say here. Thank you. The reason I strive to maintain friendships with some (not all) of his friends is because they were the only people I knew at the time we broke up. Because I had no car to get around, and was unable to secure a job, I wasn't able to get around easily to eke out my own existence as quickly as I might have had I had a vehicle and steady work. And when we broke up, he announced to me his intentions and then just disappeared from the house, and I found myself truly alone. I hesitated about contacting his friends...but then many of them came forward and contacted me. And it went from there. I was vulnerable and wasn't about to turn down anyone's help and support. And despite all my anxieties, I elected to trust their genuine intentions and the interest in me that they showed, and to respond by offering up MY genuine friendship. I want to make sure things are on track, because now that it's really clear to me what kind of character my ex has, I don't wish to have anything to do with him...but I don't think that necessitates cutting off those friends of his who have proffered their friendship to me. Rather, I think there need to be some boundaries, now that it's apparent that he and I are going to continue on on our separate ways, with (hopefully) never again any meaningful contact. For instance, maybe it would be fair of me to say I don't want to hear about him, or about their relationship with him (or lack thereof). The thing also is that he and I are so different in how we relate to people that the way I relate with his friends, separately, is completely different in tone and texture than the way I related to them through him. We can talk about different things. My ex would get "depressions" and in the midst of a dinner party would just disappear to work on his computer, or on a home improvement project...or he would just fall silent and sulk. It would suck the energy from the party and from the room, and especially from me, who would step up my animation to pick up the slack.
Author Zapbasket Posted December 2, 2009 Author Posted December 2, 2009 And another reason why I chose to continue to cultivate relationships with some of his friends: I was genuinely invested in these people. I came here with doubts, sure, but also prepared that this was a serious relationship with the potential to last for the long haul. ANd so with each person he introduced me to, I gave myself sincerely and wholly. Some I clicked with more than others, and those are the ones I've remained friends with. Some I thought I clicked with, and they made it clear right away that they were going to stick with the status quo, and I let them go. Some I didn't click with all that much and them, too, I let go, since there wasn't much to work with, anyway. So, I was genuine and invested, and my ex, while he talked the talk, was not, fundamentally. He rushed into and out of this relationship with no real feeling invested, but he talked so convincingly of my being The One that I think many of his friends, also, got genuinely invested. So then he ends it in the shallow, callous way that is characteristic of him, and what do we do? I decided to just let him be his shallow self and to go forward in the genuine way I began.
lovely81 Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Hi Greencove, Good to see you are alive and well. My advice is: stop seeing the friends for awhile. You are too hurt from the break up and making a story out of this . People are friends with people for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes they are friends with an ex's friends more out of a vengeance reason than true compatibility. Sometimes people are friends with people for party invites. Sometimes people are friends with people because they make them laugh . There are no right or wrong reasons. If being around these friends is bringing judgmental thoughts to your mind about them or the ex, I think you need to step aside and wait until you are in a place where you can see things more objectively. Spend time alone, make new friends. Get away from this insane world of arguments pro and con and this and that. It's a dry and empty place that can never give you sustenance.
sb129 Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Ah GC. I remember when you were agonising over moving to be with him. I remember telling you about how when I moved my entire life to be with someone and it didn't work out. I decided to stay in the area following that R and ended up in one that was even more disastrous! I know you have decided to stay in the area- I personally wouldn't. You want someone to take your ex to task for being such a sh*thead, but its not going to happen, and he clearly isn't aware of his own shortcomings. The R I described above (the second one which turned out to be a disaster) was with a total A-hole (married with a baby on the way), and I still get mad about how much of an a-hole he was, esp now I have a baby of my own and have an inkling of how much grief he must have put his W thru. I wish I could rake him over hot coals sometimes, and give him merry hell. BUT its the past, and thats where it belongs. I moved away and didn't look back- we have no mutual friends and there are no ties, and thats how I like it. Easier to get over someone that way. If you choose to maintain these mutual friendships you have to accept these people have made their own minds up about your R with your ex and you need to accept their right to keep quiet about it should they choose to do so.
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