muse08 Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 It doesn't really include her but the crap I hear constantly from women has certainly hardened my heart. Crap like what mr woggle? I'd assume you want to explain.
J dub Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Crap like what mr woggle? I'd assume you want to explain. wow I read this entire thread and am yet to be at all convinced why woggle thinks women are such scum to the earth. Because there are a few bad apples, every one of us is doomed for the same fate? Wouldn't that apply for men, in reverse? If youre married, and have yet to have any reason to think she will turn against you - why are you waiting for the other shoe to drop? Talk about setting up the relationship to be doomed. Self fulfilling prophecy, much? **passes the popcorn to muse, comeundone & pyro***
Untouchable_Fire Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 wow I read this entire thread and am yet to be at all convinced why woggle thinks women are such scum to the earth. Because there are a few bad apples, every one of us is doomed for the same fate? Wouldn't that apply for men, in reverse? If youre married, and have yet to have any reason to think she will turn against you - why are you waiting for the other shoe to drop? Talk about setting up the relationship to be doomed. Self fulfilling prophecy, much? **passes the popcorn to muse, comeundone & pyro*** I skipped reading this thread and went back and read some of Woggle's other threads. When you read about his relationship with his mom and exW, then it is VERY easy to understand where the guy is coming from.
Woggle Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Postong back and forth in that other thread did knock some sense into me but I still believe that you can't blame men for being afraid of marriage. Look at some of the stories you read on this board? Many men do want to be a husband but they don't want to be an ex forking over half his paycheck to a woman who loves him like a brother and needed to go find herself. If women want men to stop being so afraid of commitment maybe they should appreciate more when they do have a good man that treats them well instead of always finding the smallest reason to be unhappy with him.
Woggle Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Crap like what mr woggle? I'd assume you want to explain. When I hear women talk about cheating on men and using them as if it is some brave feminist act it puts me in a mood where I simply can't trust any of them. Maybe you don't feel that way but there are many women that do.
Untouchable_Fire Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Postong back and forth in that other thread did knock some sense into me but I still believe that you can't blame men for being afraid of marriage. Look at some of the stories you read on this board? Many men do want to be a husband but they don't want to be an ex forking over half his paycheck to a woman who loves him like a brother and needed to go find herself. If women want men to stop being so afraid of commitment maybe they should appreciate more when they do have a good man that treats them well instead of always finding the smallest reason to be unhappy with him. Wog, if we really wanted to make marriage less frightening for men then we should update the divorce laws. Right now women actually get paid for divorce.
Woggle Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Wog, if we really wanted to make marriage less frightening for men then we should update the divorce laws. Right now women actually get paid for divorce. I agree with that as well but also must say that men should stand their ground. While a man is busy trying to win back his STBX she is plotting to rake him over the coals. I was prepared for war when my ex and I seperated and I got out of my marriage unscathed. Once a woman wants to seperate men need to look at it was war has just been declared on them because when a woman has that much resentment in her heart she will cause as much pain as possible to a man.
Untouchable_Fire Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 I agree with that as well but also must say that men should stand their ground. While a man is busy trying to win back his STBX she is plotting to rake him over the coals. I was prepared for war when my ex and I seperated and I got out of my marriage unscathed. Once a woman wants to seperate men need to look at it was war has just been declared on them because when a woman has that much resentment in her heart she will cause as much pain as possible to a man. Every situation is different. I've seen guys fight the court system with every last bit of energy and still wind up paying 65% of their income, and losing nearly all marital assets. In fact that guy in particular had his xW move another guy into their home, w/ their kids before the divorce was even through.
muse08 Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 wow I read this entire thread and am yet to be at all convinced why woggle thinks women are such scum to the earth. Because there are a few bad apples, every one of us is doomed for the same fate? Wouldn't that apply for men, in reverse? If youre married, and have yet to have any reason to think she will turn against you - why are you waiting for the other shoe to drop? Talk about setting up the relationship to be doomed. Self fulfilling prophecy, much? **passes the popcorn to muse, comeundone & pyro*** You know, this topic is a very valid one and I don't want to seem callous at all. I know that I'm often a skeptic as well. HOWEVER... the issue that I don't understand is why someone would post a picture of he and his wife as his avatar and still write all these threads about how he doesn't trust her and is basically half in and half out of the marriage, mentally. I'd be really afraid to be in a marriage with someone like woggle. Woggle did you say your wife is or isn't aware of these feelings you have about trust? Many men may feel like woggle,secretly, and are just passive-aggressive... This is where the problem starts. Going as far as marriage with the deep insecurities and trust issues, is extremely dangerous and toxic.
muse08 Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 IMO, all the mistrust turns into anger. The anger and other negative emotions that you HARBOR, can make you sickER (mentally) and/or cause other negative issues.
Author ComeUndone Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 Postong back and forth in that other thread did knock some sense into me but I still believe that you can't blame men for being afraid of marriage. Look at some of the stories you read on this board? Many men do want to be a husband but they don't want to be an ex forking over half his paycheck to a woman who loves him like a brother and needed to go find herself. If women want men to stop being so afraid of commitment maybe they should appreciate more when they do have a good man that treats them well instead of always finding the smallest reason to be unhappy with him. I agree. Men and women both need to appreciate their spouses when theirs treats them well.
Author ComeUndone Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 Wog, if we really wanted to make marriage less frightening for men then we should update the divorce laws. Right now women actually get paid for divorce. What do you mean by this exactly? Are you saying that women end up in a better financial position after divorce than when she was married, or are you referring to the money she may receive for spousal support?
carhill Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 It's simply presumed legally that the minority financially contributing spouse (stereotypically female) has made other valuable contributions to the marital partnership which impute financial consideration upon the severance of the partnership. Socially, the stereotype, even in the face of equality in other aspects of societal, work and financial life, has taken on the force of law. If things were truly equal, each partner would leave the marriage with what they came into it with, equally dividing any profits and/or debts incurred during. I crunched the numbers wrt to enforcing this aspect legally and found, both financially and emotionally, it would not be a worthwhile pursuit, in my particular circumstances. Without going into specifics, the result has been my stbx's net worth is now about 12 times what it was when we got married and mine is about 1/2, mainly due to the vast disparity at the outset. For men who tie up a lot of their self-esteem in such matters, I can clearly see why many would be averse to such dynamics. I have faith that things can be different and will improve so that sustains me during these lean times.
Author ComeUndone Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 When I hear women talk about cheating on men and using them as if it is some brave feminist act it puts me in a mood where I simply can't trust any of them. Maybe you don't feel that way but there are many women that do. I understand how you could feel mistrust Woggle, but don't you think the finger can be pointed at both sexes at least equally?? Women are not the only ones out there cheating and breaking hearts. Maybe every guy that you know has been or is being screwed over, maybe you have dealt with your fair share of bad apples, but if you honestly feel that all women are untrustworthy then you are really limiting yourself. You are taking away the possibility of having a truly deep and rewarding relationship with your wife IMO.
Author ComeUndone Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 It's simply presumed legally that the minority financially contributing spouse (stereotypically female) has made other valuable contributions to the marital partnership which impute financial consideration upon the severance of the partnership. Socially, the stereotype, even in the face of equality in other aspects of societal, work and financial life, has taken on the force of law. If things were truly equal, each partner would leave the marriage with what they came into it with, equally dividing any profits and/or debts incurred during. I crunched the numbers wrt to enforcing this aspect legally and found, both financially and emotionally, it would not be a worthwhile pursuit, in my particular circumstances. Without going into specifics, the result has been my stbx's net worth is now about 12 times what it was when we got married and mine is about 1/2, mainly due to the vast disparity at the outset. For men who tie up a lot of their self-esteem in such matters, I can clearly see why many would be averse to such dynamics. I have faith that things can be different and will improve so that sustains me during these lean times. Yes in many instances you are correct... this is how it works out in the end. The thing that is rarely talked about it seems is that there is SO much more being dealt with upon divorce than just the financial side of things. It is very difficult emotionally just going through the process. It takes many months, sometimes years to get through it and there are some real lows to be dealt with. In reading so many posts on LS it seems as if the guys are primarily concerned with how much out of pocket expense they will have upon divorce. Yeah, it likely won't be cheap no matter which way you look at it, even if the financial hit to both H & W is equal, but it's not all about the money, at least for us women.
D-Jam Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Frankly, this is why you don't get married on a whim or quickly. So if one side (the man or the woman) is pushing for marriage 6 months into the RL, cool his/her jets. You don't know if this person truly loves you or is in love with the wedding day and post-wedding fantasies of some picture-perfect life. Lord knows I'd gladly let someone walk away before I get pressured to marry them (when I'm not ready). If you're that scared of ending up being "raped" in divorce court, then either don't marry this person, or take a chance, or talk about your fears with your SO. You never know. She might even sign a prenup because she feels the marriage will be fine and not end in life, but wants you to feel comfortable with it. I also think men should know their rights. We hear so much of men getting the short end of the stick, but the ones I see who come out ahead or even are the ones who read up on what can or can't be done. You can't trust lawyers to do this by the letter of the law. Finally, if you just don't trust the man or woman 100%, then don't marry them. Don't believe marriage will tame or change someone. If you can see red flags now, then don't walk down the aisle thinking they will go away. I think that's why I don't fear marriage the way men do now. I simply see things as what my rights are, and how I carry myself to find the right woman as opposed to the one I'm hoping will be right. Lord knows one can see many red flags early on, but too many ignore them...thinking it'll all go away and everything will be perfect down the road. This isn't rocket science. People just need to realize marriage is way more than just emotions.
carhill Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 I also think men should know their rights. We hear so much of men getting the short end of the stick, but the ones I see who come out ahead or even are the ones who read up on what can or can't be done. You can't trust lawyers to do this by the letter of the law.This is good advice. I did this and crunched the numbers of dealing legally with two businesses and a bunch of assets and the appropriate forensic accounting costs and lawyers to effect a 'fair distribution' and found, for my particular circumstance, pursuing an amicable dissolution to be more cost-effective, distributing to my stbx essentially what I'd be paying to professionals to assist in a contested action. Since I use legal help, I know what good help costs. I went back and reflected upon my first response in this thread and still find it to accurately reflect my feelings on the matter of marriage. My subsequent posts are about the thinking part of marriage and divorce, but the feeling (hope that makes sense) remains positive.
muse08 Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Frankly, this is why you don't get married on a whim or quickly. So if one side (the man or the woman) is pushing for marriage 6 months into the RL, cool his/her jets. You don't know if this person truly loves you or is in love with the wedding day and post-wedding fantasies of some picture-perfect life. Lord knows I'd gladly let someone walk away before I get pressured to marry them (when I'm not ready). Such wise statements. There is nothing worse than getting into something that ends badly, due to someone else pressuring you. Not only do you resent that person, but you end up resenting yourself even more.
Pyro Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Such wise statements. There is nothing worse than getting into something that ends badly, due to someone else pressuring you. Not only do you resent that person, but you end up resenting yourself even more. Timing is definitely a huge reason for divorce. Get to know the person before you commit your life to them.
muse08 Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 So if one side (the man or the woman) is pushing for marriage 6 months into the RL, cool his/her jets. ...try 3 months into the relationship. And to think I could be married now! Ludicrous... Glad I had my skepticism aka instincts.
D-Jam Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 ...try 3 months into the relationship. And to think I could be married now! Ludicrous... Glad I had my skepticism aka instincts. I had an ex who believed we should have been talking marriage 9 months later. We ended up breaking up and she believed I wasn't "grown up" enough because I wanted more time. She married another guy and even now they are having difficulties. Known other women who think the same way as her...but they're all single and/or divorced.
Sam Spade Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Every situation is different. I've seen guys fight the court system with every last bit of energy and still wind up paying 65% of their income, and losing nearly all marital assets. In fact that guy in particular had his xW move another guy into their home, w/ their kids before the divorce was even through. I don't understand how's that even legal.:eek: Stories like that may not even be that common, but even a single one is sufficient to convince me that all women are quilty until proven innocent . Also, I'd rather risk losing a girl by "insulting" her with a prenup rather than take that much of a chance.
Johnny M Posted December 7, 2009 Posted December 7, 2009 Personally, I will only get married when I decide it's time to have children. Comapred to what it was like 50-60 years ago, marriage today has all the downsides and almost none of the upsides...from the man's standpoint, anyway.
Woggle Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 I understand how you could feel mistrust Woggle, but don't you think the finger can be pointed at both sexes at least equally?? Women are not the only ones out there cheating and breaking hearts. Maybe every guy that you know has been or is being screwed over, maybe you have dealt with your fair share of bad apples, but if you honestly feel that all women are untrustworthy then you are really limiting yourself. You are taking away the possibility of having a truly deep and rewarding relationship with your wife IMO. There are men out there that cheat but there seems to be this general consensus amongst women that men have cheated for years so now it is payback time. It doesn't matter if the man in question treats his wife or girlfrond like a queen because to them he is a representitive of the patriarchy and her affair is an act of feminist rebellion. I know that not every single woman is untrustworthy but I feel the great majority are.
muse08 Posted December 8, 2009 Posted December 8, 2009 There are men out there that cheat but there seems to be this general consensus amongst women that men have cheated for years so now it is payback time. It doesn't matter if the man in question treats his wife or girlfrond like a queen because to them he is a representitive of the patriarchy and her affair is an act of feminist rebellion. I know that not every single woman is untrustworthy but I feel the great majority are. Woggle...this is the first time I can say that I agree with just about everything you said in this post, aside from "because to them he is a representitive of the patriarchy and her affair is an act of feminist rebellion." But honestly, women have been dogged for so long. No matter how peachy a female says her mariage is, most of the time she's just covering up the reality of things. It doesn't even matter how attractive the man or woman is, if someone is going to cheat they are going to cheat. I've heard that the man/female on the said often makes the married individual "feel" better emotionally and that's sometimes the main reason for the afair. I would agree that could be true, albeit not excusing adultry. But women have felt lots of hurt for years. Many men just do not treat their "queen" very well. This does not only refer to physical violence, it means loyalty. The fact that you said "there seems to be this general consensus amongst women that men have cheated for years so now it is payback time", confirms that this is true. Good job "Woggie"
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