ck1 Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 My wife and I just had our 9 year anniversaty Nov. 21st and have two beautiful kids 4 and 6. Approximately 6 months ago I discovered my wife was having an affair on me with our neighbor, and close "friend" who had recently divorced. Her body language when I went to look for a phone number on her cell phone said it all. I immediately sensed something was up. I'll just put it out there now because my wife thinks my profession is a large part of the downfall in our marriage....i'm a cop. Yeah I know the statistics about divorce and cops etc, but truly I don't feel in our case one has to do with the other. I'll try to make this story as brief as possible but its tough. Because of what I do for a living I conducted surveilance on my wife to simply find out all of the facts before I jumped to any conclusions. It took about two weeks of listening to recorded phone calls and reviewing video of our home to confirm my worst suspicions. She was in fact cheating on me and when I found out it felt as if i was shot in the chest. The things that hurt the most was finding out that she got a hotel room with this guy the night of her birthday in June as I stayed home with the kids. I also heard her say that she loved him numerous times and saw them even kiss in my own house. There are too many things to post here of what I've heard and seen and I have really opened up can of worms for myself mentally. It is a double edged sword in that I got to see and hear everything that went on in this affair from the beginning, but it hurts so bad at the same time to know in this kind of detail what actually went on between these two. When I confronted her about the affair she initially denied it then quickly admitted evrything. Sexually not much went on due to his sexual impotence, which crushed her emotionally as she felt unattractive, but still pisses me of that it went that far. Their relationship was mostly emotional and wife says he was offering her attention which I was not showing her lately. I had feelings of resetment and animosity toward her when I found out a year and half ago that she screwed up our entire financial situation. As a result I as working 20 hour days taking in as much overime as possible to pay off our debts as to not have to suffer for the next 5 years. Just wanted to pay everything off and have a clean slate. So yeah after working 20 hr days to pay for her mistake, somethings gonna give and I take responsibility for not balancing my family's emotional needs..but I was working toward a better financial future for my family. So up until about a month ago, I thought we got everthing off our chest and were moving forward. She said she still loved me and was remorseful about what she had done and said that I was amazing for satying with her. Another minor financial screw up on her part triggered bad feelings in me and we had an argument over the phone. She went out that night with some friends but never came home that night. On a hunch I drove into town only to find her car parked in a hotel parking lot. My heart stopped and wanted so bad to believe she stayed there with friends because they were drinking and did not want to drive home 30 miles DUI. I stayed in the parking lot only to see my wife and the neighbor come out together. Trust me when I say it was all I could do not to put a bullet through that guy's head. But i have two kids and a career I love an i'm not going to give them up for that kind of revenge. I later told her I knew where she was at and she denied it again. Later she came clean once she knew I physically saw them together. She still says she loves me, wants to be with me, and wants to work though this. Her actions for the past 6 months however speak louder than her words and I wonder what her true intentions are in being with me. I am at a complete loss at this point and just don't know if I can ever forgive her for what she has done to me emotionally. Is there any hope? I'm just looking for words of wisdom and advise for anyone who has been on this side of the coin. I feel she has taken everything from me financially and emotionally and know at some point I need to maintain some leve of self respect. I love my kids dearly and don't want to put them through a divorce, same feelings as my wife, but I do not want to risk getting hurt again. Any advise on copping with this would be great, it has been the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with in my life. I spend everyday fixing other people's problems and saving them from desparity and now I feel like I can't help myself. I don't have an answer for this one. Thank you all for your time.
jnj express Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 (edited) It seems everytime your wife, hits a pressure situation, she blameshifts you, and uses that as an excuse to give herself to your neighbor. IMHO, you may not have been tough enuff, in dealing with the original A., she knew you would be somewhat easy and had her ONS. You can't control her, you can only control you. Based on that you lay down your boundaries, with very strict consequences that you are capable of following thru on. You tell her, and this is only if you want to stay in this mge., that the next time she breaks any of your boundaries, you will file for divorce immediately. She was probably in contact with your neighbor all along, you need to make her implement NC. This done by e-mail ONLY, short and sweet and to the point. You know her remorse is BS, so just use a good hard 180 on her. No lovey-dovey---seperate bedrooms---For now you live like roommates. She is not allowed to go out socially without you AT ALL---I know you don't want to be a prison guard, or make a slave out of her, but it seems the minute she gets loose or doesn't like something she gets into a hotel with this neighbor. If she needs to go out on errands, one of your kids goes with her. Otherwise she stays home. As to your neighbor, and usually your beef is with your wife only, but this guy seems very happy to give her sex, and loving whenever she wants it. You let him know he is not to come onto your property ever for any reason, get a restraining order, let him know you will bring breaking and entering charges against him. Also you can threaten to sue him for the torts of criminal conversion, and alienation of affection. Look them up, they may be available in your state, but even if not, he doesn't have to know that and you may scare him so badly he will stay far away from your wife. Threatening someones wallet always works well. Your wife has major problems that need to be fixed, and counseling is in order. She sounds like a stay at home mom, who is living high while you work, paint her a picture of what life for her as a single mother would be like, which would include one to two jobs daily , that is if she is capable of working. All of these things, you do if YOU want to R. the mge. If not then just let her know you are filing for divorce. One way or another this time you must be very hardnosed and let her know she has basically murdered your mge., wrecked her kids lives, and disrespected you to the highest degree possible. I am not sure why you would even want to stay with her, but whatever you do good luck and be strong. Edited November 29, 2009 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
SoulSearch_CO Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 To claim she was truly remorseful the first time around, only to immediately go back to her old behavior when you guys have one argument...doesn't sound very remorseful to me. She's not going to stop. My XH was a sex addict and he would go looking for women anytime there was any kind of even minor problem between us. Even when things were good, he'd go looking for external validation. So really, you can just hang in there for the kids with the understanding that she WILL keep stepping out on you, or put that surveillance to good work and boot her sorry ass out of the house with a divorce to follow.
TheLoneSock Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 The silver lining I'm seeing from this is that you have a plethora of evidence against her and would have no trouble having your way with her financially in court, and custody wise too. In fact I'd surmise that the reason she wants to work on it still is because she knows she'd lose horribly in any divorce battle. My advice: march on her, hard. Take her to court and clean house, you deserve atleast that. Civil law is in your favor, and so is karma if you believe in that. I'm sorry for your pain brother, and I know that the thought of having an extreme upper hand on her in this way probably won't dull it much, but you'll be thankful for it later on. Your kids will see her in the same way you and we do once they mature, they'll see that it was she who destroyed the relationship and didn't want to be faithful. Walk strong.
lostsunsets Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 And this impotence thing with your neighbor. That's crap too. First she screws up financially then she gets pissed about it. And then ends up in a hotel room with your neighbor. Dump her. She is not one to bet on for the long run. You are destroying your self respect by keeping her. She is definitely dis respecting you.
Author ck1 Posted November 28, 2009 Author Posted November 28, 2009 Quickly just wanted to add that my wife did avoid all contact with the neighbor until her recent lapse of judgement with this last hotel meeting...remember I have surveilance of everthing she did and does. When I asked her why she made the decision to get a room with this guy she said she simply does not know why. She assured me that all they did is talk, and I know you think that I'm crazy for believing her, but I believe she is telling me the truth. This guy is scared to death of me and I know that's why he couldn't get it up in the past. Nonetheless he has disappeared. Haven't seen him around for weeks since I told him I had more than patient with his bull sh*# and that if I caught him again with my wife there woud be severe consequences. He acknowldeged that and has been out of the picture since. My wife and I talked last night and she is sick with herself for what she has done and can barley stand to look at herself or me without feeling "like a complete sh*#!" She is truly remorseful, but I told her she really put us back to sqaure one, at best, with the decision to meet this guy at the hotel and it hurts to not really know the reason why she did it. It was no doubt a conscious decision which she made and could have backed out of at any time. She says she regrets its, I think she simply regrets getting caught. I guess i'm wishing upon a star from what you all are thinking and that's why I wanted to get some outside input. I just really want to give her another chance but absolutely agree one more fu#* up, and she's pack'n her crap up and is gone.
Mini-Me Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 good luck living with all of the "wonder" about what REALLY went on in that hotel room, and the thoughts of how she "tried" to help him get it up... you know, with her hands, with her mouth, with her... you get it... anyway, have a good weekend with your wife
jnj express Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 like it or not---your wife is lying to you---look at the red flags----1. guy is out of the picture---gone, but the minute she wants him, he is there immediately---so he is not gone and she knows how to contact him, there may have been continued contact all along, they have just deluded you, and are deeply underground. 2. People do not go to the trouble, and spend money on hotel rooms to talk, if she wanted to talk, she could have met him at a coffee shop, or remote park. 3. Your wife knows what and why----she had to plan this last liason, she knew she was violating your boundaries, and stabbing the heart of your mge AGAIN. Do not bekieve her, she has become a master of deciet, take this as gospel from those who havew been thru this before. If you are giving her a 3rd chance, you had better be very hardnosed, and into every little thing she does.
Bryanp Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 First of all thank you for all you do for our society. Unfortunately you are in such big time denial. Lets look at the facts. She has sexually cheated on you and put your health at risk for STD's and continually lies to you. She gets laid on her birthday with your next door neighbor while you watch the kids at home. She played you for a total fool. You have proof that she has such little respect for you that she had no problem kissing and probably making out in your own home - in your own HOME! You get into an arguement and she leaves to meet with the neighbor at a hotel room and you believe all they did was talk???? If all they wanted to do was talk why didn't they meet at Denny's for coffee? She tells you that she does not know why she does these things? Are you kidding me? She does it because she wants to do it. Saying she does not know why implies none of this is her fault. How can you fix something if you have no idea what the problem is? Her comments that she loves you is ridiculous. You provide her with a nice home with the kids. My friend you judge a person by their actions and not by their words and her actions speaks volumes on how disrespectful she is toward your relationship and marriage. If you do not respect yourself then who will? By the way since your wife is a liar and a cheater I doubt very much he is totally impotent. She is saying this to you to make her look good. If he is so impotent then why meet him again in the hotel room? Your wife is playing you for a total fool. You give her second chances and she continues. Please contact an attorney to see what your options are and make sure the both of your get tested for STD's. If the roles were reversed do you honestly think your wife would be so accommodating and accepting as you have been? Enough is enough!
lostsunsets Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 I completely agree with bryanp. You should be at least talking to a lawyer. In fact what you should do is draw up a legal agreement that says she will forfeit all assets and custody of your children should she be caught so much as speaking with this guy.
Baroness67 Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 I am so sorry, ck1. I am also a BS and I know it's the lying to your face that hurts even more than the infidelity, even more than the lies of omission. It's the lying to your face that says most clearly "I value protecting what I feel like doing, even when I know it's wrong, over your whole emotional well-being." That truly was the biggest slap in the face to me. Or, kick to the gut. I agree with what some other posters have said - you gave her a clear shot at rectifying things, and she stabbed you in the back all over again. I know as well as anyone here what it feels like to want to go to hell and back to "save the marriage" but to do that you have to have confidence that you have a spouse who is worth it. Not who once "was" worth it - they all were once, otherwise we wouldn't have married them - but one who shows a clear desire to stop the lies and work on the relationship with you. Your post reminds me of my months where all I dreamed about was what I might say or do to the OW if I ran into her. My therapist kept reminding me that it was my H I should be angrier with. Your switching the genders on me makes this more clear to me. While your neighbor is certainly quite a peece o shyte, your wife is the one who is the worst by far. I am so sorry you are going through this right now. It hurts, it hurts, it hurts.
whichwayisup Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 This guy is scared to death of me and I know that's why he couldn't get it up in the past. It's time for you to talk to him..He obviously isn't scared ENOUGH of you to back off and leave your wife alone, or just say NO to her if she comes knocking on his door. She needs to suffer consquences, real consquences before she changes her way. All is fine for her to say it's over but until she puts it into action, talk is cheap my friend.. She HAS to go to counseling, fix herself before you two do any marriage counseling together.
LadyDi Posted November 28, 2009 Posted November 28, 2009 Kind of unusual, usually the officer is the one who has the affair, not the spouse. Good luck to you.
SoulSearch_CO Posted November 29, 2009 Posted November 29, 2009 My wife and I talked last night and she is sick with herself for what she has done and can barley stand to look at herself or me without feeling "like a complete sh*#!" She is truly remorseful, but I told her she really put us back to sqaure one, at best, with the decision to meet this guy at the hotel and it hurts to not really know the reason why she did it. It was no doubt a conscious decision which she made and could have backed out of at any time. She says she regrets its, I think she simply regrets getting caught. That is my XH to a "t." Oh, sure - he was regretful. So regretful that he wanted to kill himself, he'd self-harm, tell me that he's a big piece of crap and I deserve better. Blah, blah, blah. Do you understand what that is? It's a convenient way to escape adult responsibility for a ****ty choice. She basically doesn't know HOW to fix it, so her way of "punishing" herself is to say bad stuff about herself to you. Like flogging herself. It's self-pitying bull****. But it doesn't actually move the relationship forward. It does not open up the space for them to atone for what they've done, and it doesn't make healing possible for the betrayed spouse. I also agree with the part of regretting getting caught - my XH would deny even when I would say I had evidence. I was giving him the chance to 'fess up on his own - telling him I knew what was going on and he wouldn't do it. Even when I said, "Are you serious? You want to lie? Because I have evidence." He still wanted to deny. I had to shove the evidence in his face and only then would he admit to what he'd done. But yeah - once he realized that I knew as much as I did about what he'd been doing, THAT'S when the remorse hit. Oh, he was so sad, felt so horrible for what he'd done. Please. I can't say I'm any better than him. I gave him 5 faithful years while he ran around doing what he pleased. I got so fed up with the bull**** (and was contemplating divorce) that I stepped out on him. I DID feel remorse. I felt HORRIBLE. What I had done went against my nature and I was terrified to know I chose a very hurtful action and sank to his level. I told him what I had done on my own. He didn't have to go through what I did - all alone and finding out what a dog my spouse is...and then adding insult to injury by having the dog lie to me when I already knew the truth.
Author ck1 Posted November 29, 2009 Author Posted November 29, 2009 I appreciate all of your insight and sharing your personal experiences with me. This is why I posted here....I'm trying to just see through the fog and help mysef filter out what is fantasy and what is reality. I guess I'm just hoping we can be the exception to the rule and truly get through this. But I know how my hopes and wanting to believe in something so bad can scew up my judgement. My wife said she has scheduled an appointent with a therapist this Monday so she can deal with her issues. I know the ball is in my court, but I just want to be absolutely sure of the decision I have to make about staying with her or not. If I make the decision to leave, that's it. There will be no looking back. Her actions must speak louder than words at this point. I just hope my wife can deal with her demons and let me know truly what she wants, if anything, from me or this relationship.
SoulSearch_CO Posted November 29, 2009 Posted November 29, 2009 I guess I'm just hoping we can be the exception to the rule and truly get through this. ... My wife said she has scheduled an appointment with a therapist this Monday so she can deal with her issues. ... Her actions must speak louder than words at this point. On that note - I hope things work out for you two and you can beat the odds. But she has A LOT of work to do. (I'm sure you see things you can improve on, as well - I'm not EVER saying that when there are problems in the marriage, it's only one person's responsibility.)
lostsunsets Posted November 29, 2009 Posted November 29, 2009 I am afraid without consequence, she won't change. You need to separate finances, cancel CCs and you need to file for divorce. This will protect you financially. You don't have to get divorced but you should file. She needs to be and bawling (not balling) snot and mascara running mess. She has to actually believe that she might lose you.
lkjh Posted November 29, 2009 Posted November 29, 2009 Even after being caught originally she still meets him at a hotel to "talk". You don't go to a hotel to "talk", you do that at coffee shops. After all that she has put you through, why would you stay with her. Rent your house out till the market rises again and both of you move into apts. She needs to see consequences for her actions. It really shocks me that she put your family in this financial mess and then blames you while you are fixing it. Also, even with your surveillance I am sure they are finding ways to talk
NY156 Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 I am shocked at a lot of the responses written here. Nearly every response attacked your wife for her infidelity, you for not taking more action, and your marriage as being terminal. Clearly the responders are those who have fallen "victim," and have been betrayed. Misery loves company and the bitterness in this response string is very evident. While I understand your concerns and personally believe infidelity to be toxic to nearly any relationship/marriage and borderline unforgivable, I also think it is critical to be introspective and reflect on your own misgivings. Nearly all infidelity arises NOT from a desire to have torrid sexual encounters, but rather from something far more intimate being missing from the marriage. A relationship that is void or lacking in emotional connection and a mutual understanding and desire/need for the same type and level of emotional intimacy will inevitability lead to a search to fill the void. These emotional affairs can lead to physical intimacy as a consummation of the "connection," but the physical affair is not what threatens the marriage. The emotional side of the affair is what has to be dealt with here. It is good that she is seeking counseling, but it seems to me that if you want the marriage to potentially have a turning point and actually begin to thrive again you too need to go to counseling. You need to understand what is missing for her. You cannot reasonably sit back and expect for her to go to counseling to "fix herself" while you sit idly by and then attempt to move forward. I understand that you likely feel victimized and like you did nothing wrong, so why should you have to go...everything was fine before this happened, right? Wrong. With this thinking you will never be able to move forward in the marriage. Just remember that history is the BEST indicator of the future. If your marriage was lacking something for her, and things don't change, she will likely repeat this OR will not repeat it, but will be unhappy and resentful at the marriage. Only SoulSearch mentioned that both parties in the marriage likely have work to do...listen to this responder...the rest all respond with emotion, hatred, and bitterness. What you need is level thinking without disdain.
lkjh Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 NY156, you really couldn't be more wrong. Infidelity is rising at alarming rates and there is no way that all of it is because "something" is missing. That is just an excuse. No single person will ever be able to fulfill the complete needs of another. There will always be something missing but there are many ways of dealing with this and cheating should not be one of them. Cheating is a character flaw that is rising because A) society encourages it by glamorizing affairs on TV, in Book, and the internet and B) we put people in positions to have affair more than ever before. In most societies and through out history married people did not act the way we do now. Now it is perfectly ok for married people to go to bars, movies, coffee and other "out" places without their SO and even with "friends" of the opposite sex. These events are called dates and they are not harmless. We think we are getting advanced but in reality we are getting stupid. While this man was working insane hrs to help support his family his wife was getting her "needs" met by someone else. The needs excuse is a weak and pathetic one
NY156 Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 NY156, you really couldn't be more wrong. Infidelity is rising at alarming rates and there is no way that all of it is because "something" is missing. That is just an excuse. No single person will ever be able to fulfill the complete needs of another. There will always be something missing but there are many ways of dealing with this and cheating should not be one of them. Cheating is a character flaw that is rising because A) society encourages it by glamorizing affairs on TV, in Book, and the internet and B) we put people in positions to have affair more than ever before. In most societies and through out history married people did not act the way we do now. Now it is perfectly ok for married people to go to bars, movies, coffee and other "out" places without their SO and even with "friends" of the opposite sex. These events are called dates and they are not harmless. We think we are getting advanced but in reality we are getting stupid. While this man was working insane hrs to help support his family his wife was getting her "needs" met by someone else. The needs excuse is a weak and pathetic one For the RECORD, I never said cheating was an acceptable means of dealing with relationship woes. In fact I said I understood. And, I will say it again...I understand! HOWEVER, in any situation where something goes wrong you should always be introspective and examine your own behaviors. Also, be prudent in your criticism and realize that this is just one side of the story. Also, for the RECORD, I would never condone "dating" or casual coffee meet-ups with the opposite sex. I do think that common sense needs to be exercised and we should all know better so as to not put yourself in potentially hazardous situations. Rarely can a woman and man be just friends without any other feelings. Why this was brought up in the response is beyond me and is not relative. Regarding this man working insane hours to help support his family and wife - don't forget that supporting the family is more than bringing home a paycheck. It is also about being a good father and good husband. Yet no one here has probed into that arena. The "victims" just assume this man is a good husband and father. Again, a paycheck does not mean the family is being taken care of.
NY156 Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 This is moral relativism pop-psychology CRAP. Wrong is wrong. An affair is never "excusable" or mitigable because of circumstances. Go ahead and try your logic on a battered wife, telling her to "think about what she did that was wrong. How did you encourage your husband to hit you?" As for "emotional" being worse than "physical," if another guy touches my wife (not that I'll ever marry again), she's contaminated. Game over. "Moral Relativism pop-psychology CRAP, huh?" Challenge yourself to think a little deeper here. I know it is not excusable to have an affair, in fact I said in my post that it is toxic and in my opinion relationship ending. However, you should think introspectively and examine your own behavior. And, are you serious about the battered wife? Come on, is this forum about spousal abuse or infidelity. Men who batter their wife have serious "wiring" problems in my opinion and many cannot be rehabilitated and most re-offend forever. However, we are talking about infidelity. Many marriages survive infidelity and the relationship transforms and eventually thrives. Your analogy of spousal abuse is inappropriate and borders on insulting.
NY156 Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 One more thing as I am exhausted from the attacks.....I do think it is unfortunate about the working long hours due to financial mishaps, and it is great that the mistakes are able to be fixed this way. But, the paycheck is not the only component of supporting the family. Hopefully he is a great father and husband, but it did shock me that no one mentioned some element of self-evaluation. We can all improve ourselves, so in this state of the relationship, shouldn't both people be working together to try to figure out what happened and then decide if they want to work together to fix it or not? So many posters suggest divorce, threatening divorce, or placing strict limitations on when she can leave and to make her take a child with her wherever she goes. This isn't a marriage, this becomes a prison in which no marriage stands a chance.
lkjh Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 For the RECORD, I never said cheating was an acceptable means of dealing with relationship woes. In fact I said I understood. And, I will say it again...I understand! HOWEVER, in any situation where something goes wrong you should always be introspective and examine your own behaviors. Also, be prudent in your criticism and realize that this is just one side of the story. Also, for the RECORD, I would never condone "dating" or casual coffee meet-ups with the opposite sex. I do think that common sense needs to be exercised and we should all know better so as to not put yourself in potentially hazardous situations. Rarely can a woman and man be just friends without any other feelings. Why this was brought up in the response is beyond me and is not relative. Regarding this man working insane hours to help support his family and wife - don't forget that supporting the family is more than bringing home a paycheck. It is also about being a good father and good husband. Yet no one here has probed into that arena. The "victims" just assume this man is a good husband and father. Again, a paycheck does not mean the family is being taken care of. First off saying the cheating happened because something is missing is excusing it which makes it more acceptable. Its pretty similar to claiming that criminals commit crimes because of genetics(they had no other choice). By saying there is something missing you are removing the responsibility of the individual and making it seem like they had no control over the situation. Also, there are people that will cheat no matter what, even if they are really happy and "fulfilled". Last, I am not a victim and I have never been cheated on, or at least I don't think I have. This was not about bringing home a paycheck. He flat out said that his wife pretty much destroyed them financially. When something like that happens people have to sacrifice a couple of years to get stable. Cheating is a choice working is not
NY156 Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 [/b] First off saying the cheating happened because something is missing is excusing it which makes it more acceptable. Its pretty similar to claiming that criminals commit crimes because of genetics(they had no other choice). By saying there is something missing you are removing the responsibility of the individual and making it seem like they had no control over the situation. Also, there are people that will cheat no matter what, even if they are really happy and "fulfilled". Last, I am not a victim and I have never been cheated on, or at least I don't think I have. This was not about bringing home a paycheck. He flat out said that his wife pretty much destroyed them financially. When something like that happens people have to sacrifice a couple of years to get stable. Cheating is a choice working is not I find it so interesting that everyone is analyzing and focused on my opinions of why infidelity can occur - by the way I never said this was 100% of the instances. And, I find it interesting that I am being attacked for voicing an opinion with suggestions that are actually in the interest of any couple. But, there have been no attacks toward the responders that tell this man to divorce his wife, to threaten her with divorce - to even file, to take away all of her money and cc's, to make her take a child with her wherever she goes, to monitor her every move...come on please. These suggestions are not in the interest of the "family," but interestingly no one was alarmed enough to respond. This has turned into a debate on "how it happens" rather than a constructive conversation on helping people to move forward.
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