Two year later, the gloves came off...and she's certifiable!

[whichwayisup]

Sooner or later you both need to decide to let go of some stuff.. If you want to work through this, unfortunately most of the 'letting go and anger' has to happen on the expense of the betrayed spouse. This is why I always say, the BS has to be a strong and special kind hearted person to work through the fallout of an affair and give the CS that second chance. It would be so easy to say f*,k it and walk away.. But, you love him and he's your H. You two have built a life together, and because he screwed it up, badly, means that you have to walk away?? No.. If you want him, fight for your marriage, but you need to decide, make the choice to let certain aspects of the A go. Recovery has to happen and the only way to do that is to stop asking certain questions, get a new outlook on the marriage, the situation itself.

 

Read Thumbingmyway's threads..Owls' threads.. They will be helpful for you to gain that inspiration and strength to get through to the other side.

[foreal]

Who's problem is this? His, mine, who's?

 

Sometimes, I still feel like we can't move forward because I have not had enough conversation about it. Is it me?

 

(((Spark)))

 

I think at some point you have to take the leap....one way or the other.

 

We'll never know it all. WS 'can't' tell us all. "Can't" in this case covers many different meanings: Can't remember; can't bring himself to hurt you more; can't b/c in his own mind he must keep 'something' to himself; and on and on.

 

Do you want your M or do you want to know all the sorid details? We know it is all terrible- Do you want to continue ripping off the scab?

 

Do you want your R with your H to improve or prefer to deteriorate further by the need to 'know' and talk about 'it'?

 

Do you want him?

 

Do you feel that NOW, today, not yesterday, not a year ago, but TODAY, do you feel he is with you TODAY, NOW?

 

Do you feel he is not going back to that dark place?

 

If NOW, TODAY you feel his heart is with you, then perhaps it IS time to let go of the past...if your heart is with him.

 

Unless you feel the hurt and pain will never end as long as you are in a R with your H.

 

But if you think your R and your M is what you want, what you REALLY WANT, then F the past at this point.

 

Yes, he screwed up, over and over, during the A, then after the A...but where is he, where are YOU today, NOW?

 

If you feel, in your gut, that NOW, what you have NOW with your H is real, then perhaps you need to allow yourself a break.

 

What are your goals? If it is to reconcile, and you feel, in your gut, your H wants the same, then let the shyttiness of the A go.

 

Each time you feel the need to ask more, to piece together more to help you understand (which we all know will NEVER happen, we will NEVER have all the answers which we seek) to get info that you believe will help you, ask yourself, "Will this help my M?"; "Will this conversation I am dieing to have really help my M?"

 

And even if you don't want to reconcile, letting it go will help you move forward...with or without him, you need to be free of the A.

 

I am not saying it is easy. I am just saying that for yourself, stop the insanity. You were placed in this position. But your H and the OW no longer have power to place you anywhere. You can step out from it.

 

Just as your H "stepped out of the M", YOU "can step out of the A." And you don't need your H or anyone else to do that. YOU CAN DO IT. FOR YOURSELF.

 

(((Spark))) I am thinking of you.

[eeyore1981]

An update: Now that we have successfully TOGETHER dealt with her breaking NC, here is what I am left with:

 

EGO (for that WOMAN you risked it, us, all????????????)

 

and, WHY IS it so hard for you to talk to me???????

 

Is it me?

 

I percieve I have calmly asked questions, and it is either:

 

A) Answered quickly, but then a let's move on attitude presents,

 

or

 

B)He is angery I even asked.

 

Who's problem is this? His, mine, who's?

 

Sometimes, I still feel like we can't move forward because I have not had enough conversation about it. Is it me?

 

I don't think it is you. I don't feel like saying what is on my mind, and stirring up more bad feelings in you, so I will stick with if you need more conversation, then you should relay that and stick with it. If you don't, then you are settling, and you still aren't happy and satisfied, and that is not going to work long-term.

I'm about to start a thread that kind of touches on this.

[eeyore1981]

I don't think it is you. I don't feel like saying what is on my mind, and stirring up more bad feelings in you, so I will stick with if you need more conversation, then you should relay that and stick with it. If you don't, then you are settling, and you still aren't happy and satisfied, and that is not going to work long-term.

I'm about to start a thread that kind of touches on this.

 

Well, I started a new thread, but my son was talking, talking, talking to me, so it took forever to finish, and it wiped it out when I hit submit, so I will try again later. It really gripes my ass to struggle with what I am trying to say and pour out my innermost feelings to have them just disappear...

[Spark1111]

I have forgiven the affair.

 

I knew most of it, not all, within the first three months. I needed to hear him tell me the best way he knew how.

 

I knew the hardest question is the "why" and patiently waited for month of IC to pass, before we picked that one apart.

 

The omitted truths I stumbled upon set the recovery clock back to square one.

 

The outright lies to my face devastated me.

 

I struggle now with two things:

 

Will I ever respect him again? He is remorseful, a better man in all ways, but truly does not want to introspect, read, learn, research. He just wants to move on.

 

Will I ever truly trust him again? This one is huge guys. It hasn't gone away, not so much from the affair, but from the boggling of the aftermath of the affair.

 

And I wonder today, has he grown? Hell, he still avoids conflict. He is still difficult to communicate with. And will this change in my lifetime? My marriage?

 

I love him and will always love him. There are aspects of his personality that I cherish.

 

But I do look a little differently at him, as if the rose-colored glasses have come off and I wonder if I can accept that this is my future.

 

I still feel so many of MY emotional needs go unmet, have always gone unmet. Can I accept him for who he is, may always be, especially now, after this?

 

At the two year mark...calmer....seeing my reality as it is and may always be....and still wondering.

[wheelwright]

'I have forgiven the affair' must be a very liberating thing to feel Spark. And in general you sound very well-balanced. Your post left me with two questions which I ask to bring me insight and not to be nosy, but don't answer if they seem that way.

 

What emotional needs does he not meet and why can't he learn about doing it?

 

What made you forgive the A? Love? Understanding? Belief in a happy future? Self-healing? Or something else?

[eeyore1981]

I have forgiven the affair.

 

I knew most of it, not all, within the first three months. I needed to hear him tell me the best way he knew how.

 

I knew the hardest question is the "why" and patiently waited for month of IC to pass, before we picked that one apart.

 

The omitted truths I stumbled upon set the recovery clock back to square one.

 

The outright lies to my face devastated me.

 

I struggle now with two things:

 

Will I ever respect him again? He is remorseful, a better man in all ways, but truly does not want to introspect, read, learn, research. He just wants to move on.

 

Will I ever truly trust him again? This one is huge guys. It hasn't gone away, not so much from the affair, but from the boggling of the aftermath of the affair.

 

And I wonder today, has he grown? Hell, he still avoids conflict. He is still difficult to communicate with. And will this change in my lifetime? My marriage?

 

I love him and will always love him. There are aspects of his personality that I cherish.

 

But I do look a little differently at him, as if the rose-colored glasses have come off and I wonder if I can accept that this is my future.

 

I still feel so many of MY emotional needs go unmet, have always gone unmet. Can I accept him for who he is, may always be, especially now, after this?

 

At the two year mark...calmer....seeing my reality as it is and may always be....and still wondering.

 

Around the 2 year mark is when my entire system rebelled. I had spent 2 years trying to get past this, and I opened my eyes and realized how really unhappy I was. My H was doing things I had wanted him to do before, but after the A, while these things were nice, they were not what I needed. Also, I felt if the things I needed were not met, then long-term nothing was going to change, and he would find some reason to do this again.

I ended up so depressed, trying to figure out what I could do to get myself better and move on with my life. I hope you are able to find your peace somehow. I know how hard it is when your needs are being dismissed.

[PhoenixRise]

Spark

 

 

I think it makes perfect sense that you would still be questioning whether or not you could ever respect or trust your H again. It can not be overlooked that when he did have your trust and respect he abused it.

 

It is possible that your H has not been introspective or grown from this experience, instead just trying to move on without doing that hard work.

 

I wonder though if this could be a matter of men and women expressing things differently.....you need to talk, hash it out, verbally make sure there is complete understanding of all the angles...I get this because I am like this too. Is it possible that your H is showing growth and is giving evidence of introspection in other ways? Has he ever been verbal in the way you are now expecting?

 

I also wonder if talking about the affair still triggers him in much the same way that it would trigger a BS. BS's can still feel pain, jealously, anger, and mistrust for years after dday....So...

 

If your H considered himself a "good man", someone with character and integrity prior to the affair then talking about the affair may just trigger memories of who he was when he believes he was at his lowest state as a man. He was lying everybody, not coping with anything, maligning the character of his wife, not the kind of father he wants to be, was selfish and self serving....NOT at all who he want to think he is...AND as you have pointed out, not the whole story of who he is...but maybe it is his fear that this ugly part of him is all you will ever really see going forward so he doesn't want to add any more ugly to what you already know.

 

I think you are going to have to decide when you have heard enough about the affair...I don't think you will ever hear it all. And truly Spark, is there anything he can SAY that he hasn't already said that will assure you that he is now worthy of your respect and trust.

 

AND if you don't mind sharing...what emotional need is he not meeting? Have you communicated these needs to him...or do these needs only come up in the context of discussing the affair?

[Snowflower]

Spark

 

I wonder though if this could be a matter of men and women expressing things differently.....you need to talk, hash it out, verbally make sure there is complete understanding of all the angles...I get this because I am like this too. Is it possible that your H is showing growth and is giving evidence of introspection in other ways? Has he ever been verbal in the way you are now expecting?

 

I also wonder if talking about the affair still triggers him in much the same way that it would trigger a BS. BS's can still feel pain, jealously, anger, and mistrust for years after dday....So...

 

If your H considered himself a "good man", someone with character and integrity prior to the affair then talking about the affair may just trigger memories of who he was when he believes he was at his lowest state as a man. He was lying everybody, not coping with anything, maligning the character of his wife, not the kind of father he wants to be, was selfish and self serving....NOT at all who he want to think he is...AND as you have pointed out, not the whole story of who he is...but maybe it is his fear that this ugly part of him is all you will ever really see going forward so he doesn't want to add any more ugly to what you already know.

 

 

PR, you bring up a good point, Spark, do you think this is true for your H?

 

My H has willingly and patiently let me rehash, discuss, question, verbalize the A and my feelings about it over and over again. I did this for months and he let me (and still lets me) do this as I need to. Although over the past couple of months, I have felt less and less of a need to do this.

 

However, I remember my H saying at one point (because he is never the one to bring the subject up-it's me)that he wishes that we could just forget it-that he is deeply ashamed and embarrassed about what he did-that he hates to think about it.

 

I think men and women truly do think differently about these types of emotional traumas and perhaps talking about it (for men) is their trigger. I know I hate the triggers, so it makes sense that my H would hate the triggers as well.

 

Hope this makes sense.

[eeyore1981]

Phoenex makes some very good points. I don't know your husband, Spark, but if he is anything like mine, maybe this will help you.

 

One of the things H brought up when we had our talk was triggers.

 

There have been a lot of times on a TV program, or a movie, or with a friend where infidelity has come up, and it has caused a lot of bad thoughts to start rolling around in my head. I would have sworn my H was oblivious to how I was feeling.

 

He told me it seems like cheating is just everywhere, and every time it pops up, he has felt like a piece of crap because he knows it is causing me to think about it and start hurting again, even when things are going well.

 

I wish my husband had not had an affair of any kind, and I wish he hadn't lied to me for so long, this is true. But I will say, the massive amount of shame coming from him when he was telling the truth, it was way out of proportion to what he had done. I have not seen very much in the way of remorse from him in all this time, and then on Saturday it wouldn't have been any plainer if he had hired a giant billboard to proclaim how much he has silently and unknown to me beaten the hell out of himself over and over about this.

 

I've had a lot of times when I have wondered if my H was capable of having feelings, but there were just enough times of getting a small glimpse of what was inside him to just keep me confused. It turns out he is a pretty deep guy, who for whatever reason has tried to shut himself off. Is there any chance this is what is going on with you and yours?

[Spark1111]

'I have forgiven the affair' must be a very liberating thing to feel Spark. And in general you sound very well-balanced. Your post left me with two questions which I ask to bring me insight and not to be nosy, but don't answer if they seem that way.

 

What emotional needs does he not meet and why can't he learn about doing it?

 

What made you forgive the A? Love? Understanding? Belief in a happy future? Self-healing? Or something else?

 

I forgave the affair pretty quickly. We had been through hell in our marriage just prior to it, and and he grew so distant from me, I gave up on "us" and grew distant from him. I am very honest in looking back and realizing that if I had crashed into someone who told me how wonderful I was, I too could have had an affair.

 

The lies and deception took so much longer to overcome. Why not separate? Go to counseling? Pursue your feelings for another while alowing me to do the same? Why come home here and pretend to be a happy family man to the kids, but a cold fish to me? That hurt more. How did you look into my eyes for almost two years and lie to me everyday? I will never get over that level of cowardice and indecision because I have never experienced it.

 

Thirdly, I now feel I have a PhD. in "Affair"ology. I have read and gathered info and researched psych sites ad nauseum, and while there are all different types, for all different reasons, I am truly convinced my husband's affair had very little to do with me, and more to do with what was broken within himself.

 

And that is something I cannot fix. As much as I try to encourage dialogue, improve our relationship, wish to read and share with him the good, bad, and ugly, he is either not interested or feels his actions are good enough.

 

We talk more about his high=pressured position, than about us. And that is a very strong, emotional need for me. Not just the affair, but how we can improve us.

 

I LOVE to communicate about everything. He, only about the topics he likes best with not too much introspection about us. It frustrates me to no end. And yes, I feel the job comes first.

[Spark1111]

Phoenex makes some very good points. I don't know your husband, Spark, but if he is anything like mine, maybe this will help you.

 

One of the things H brought up when we had our talk was triggers.

 

There have been a lot of times on a TV program, or a movie, or with a friend where infidelity has come up, and it has caused a lot of bad thoughts to start rolling around in my head. I would have sworn my H was oblivious to how I was feeling.

 

He told me it seems like cheating is just everywhere, and every time it pops up, he has felt like a piece of crap because he knows it is causing me to think about it and start hurting again, even when things are going well.

 

I wish my husband had not had an affair of any kind, and I wish he hadn't lied to me for so long, this is true. But I will say, the massive amount of shame coming from him when he was telling the truth, it was way out of proportion to what he had done. I have not seen very much in the way of remorse from him in all this time, and then on Saturday it wouldn't have been any plainer if he had hired a giant billboard to proclaim how much he has silently and unknown to me beaten the hell out of himself over and over about this.

 

I've had a lot of times when I have wondered if my H was capable of having feelings, but there were just enough times of getting a small glimpse of what was inside him to just keep me confused. It turns out he is a pretty deep guy, who for whatever reason has tried to shut himself off. Is there any chance this is what is going on with you and yours?

 

 

Absolutely! And at what point does this become a calm easy discussion between us? When?

 

At some point the remorseful WS has to forgive themselves if they are ever able to fully participate in the BS's healing.

 

So yes, all that unneccessary pain waiting for someone to "man up." It feels as if, it is still all about them, their affair, their pain, their depression, their shutting down, etc.

 

Can someone like that ever truly be there for someone else emotionally? I can love him, I can feel sorry for him, but do I want to be with him for the rest of my life? I see the limitations, and they may be permanent. Can I accept that forever?

[Spark1111]

PR, you bring up a good point, Spark, do you think this is true for your H?

 

My H has willingly and patiently let me rehash, discuss, question, verbalize the A and my feelings about it over and over again. I did this for months and he let me (and still lets me) do this as I need to. Although over the past couple of months, I have felt less and less of a need to do this.

 

However, I remember my H saying at one point (because he is never the one to bring the subject up-it's me)that he wishes that we could just forget it-that he is deeply ashamed and embarrassed about what he did-that he hates to think about it.

 

I think men and women truly do think differently about these types of emotional traumas and perhaps talking about it (for men) is their trigger. I know I hate the triggers, so it makes sense that my H would hate the triggers as well.

 

Hope this makes sense.

 

Snowflower, so, soooo jealous of calm easy discussion. I begged for it. Cried. Wrote hundreds of emails. The were ignored. He would cry, but not respond. He was so ashamed, too. He said, "Who wouldn't want to sweep this under the rug?"

 

I get it, but it didn't help ME. Not one bit. And that is the limitation I look at now. At a time when I needed you most to help restore my trust in you, you couldn't/wouldn't do it because of your own feelings.

 

What changed?

[eeyore1981]

Absolutely! And at what point does this become a calm easy discussion between us? When?

 

At some point the remorseful WS has to forgive themselves if they are ever able to fully participate in the BS's healing.

 

So yes, all that unneccessary pain waiting for someone to "man up." It feels as if, it is still all about them, their affair, their pain, their depression, their shutting down, etc.

 

Can someone like that ever truly be there for someone else emotionally? I can love him, I can feel sorry for him, but do I want to be with him for the rest of my life? I see the limitations, and they may be permanent. Can I accept that forever?

 

How much you can put up with is something you decide. I'm not saying I think you should roll over and take it, because I don't.

 

I have mentioned a few times about thinking about having an affair. I'm glad it didn't happen. But I struggled so much with what to do, how to get past this, how to be with the man I love so damn much and not go crazy. I needed this to change so much, and since it didn't seem forthcoming from him, I figured an affair would change my attitude about his attitude. I didn't see any other way to make it okay. I ended up making plans to just leave, knowing it would be a long time, if ever, before I got past everything that happened, not just the A. For me, every choice I had was devastating to me, so I was just trying to figure out which one was giving me the best chance at recovery.

 

My H has caused me a lot of misery. If he wants to be all stoic and guilt-ridden, more power to him, but he shouldn't be taking me down with him.

 

My working things out with him now is not just because he finally told the truth. He is also seeing how much damage his mindset has caused, and is working towards changing it. I have no interest in being with someone any more who can think things like, "well, I've already screwed this up, so what difference does it make if I do this."

 

I don't know what to tell you to make your H see the light, as I tried every single thing I could think of, and none of them worked. I don't know if mine got an epiphany, or if he was picking up the vibes that I was done.

 

But I do agree with you. I would go so far as to say I find this behavior incredibly stupid and hateful.

[Impudent Oyster]

Will I ever truly trust him again? This one is huge guys. It hasn't gone away, not so much from the affair, but from the boggling of the aftermath of the affair.

 

 

Probably not, but the question you have to ask yourself is, does it matter?

 

My trust in any man is gone. If my husband did it to me I'm convinced that any man could, that is how good I thought our marriage was.

 

I think it's more important that you're confident that he truly loves you, understands what he did, and is remorseful.

[wheelwright]

Thirdly, I now feel I have a PhD. in "Affair"ology. I have read and gathered info and researched psych sites ad nauseum, and while there are all different types, for all different reasons, I am truly convinced my husband's affair had very little to do with me, and more to do with what was broken within himself.

 

And that is something I cannot fix. As much as I try to encourage dialogue, improve our relationship, wish to read and share with him the good, bad, and ugly, he is either not interested or feels his actions are good enough.

 

We talk more about his high=pressured position, than about us. And that is a very strong, emotional need for me. Not just the affair, but how we can improve us.

 

I LOVE to communicate about everything. He, only about the topics he likes best with not too much introspection about us. It frustrates me to no end. And yes, I feel the job comes first.

 

How horrid Spark. I guess the majority of us on this forum have unmet needs, and you have spoken openly and with courage.

 

From what you say, it sounds like he is still defensive/withdrawn. Maybe this is the way he is so used to being he will find it difficult to change. They are quite protective of him issues rather than bad to you.

 

All the same, and even with understanding, he needs to change if you are to be happy i.e the M to be.

 

It's the same with my H now. Unmet needs.

 

But are we falling into the old marriage joke 'aisle change him'?

 

I didn't want to change my H before we married. But then we weren't married then...

 

I feel both parties in marriage need to change fundamental things about themselves through growth to make it work. It's like that it's the best test of character quote (CRBW).

 

I am certainly seeing that there is more to M than just coasting...

Edited December 9, 2009 by wheelwright
put in italics cos didn't understand the quoting stuff