Author Spark1111 Posted November 25, 2009 Author Posted November 25, 2009 Mini-me, I get your pain, I truly do. Would you have found a reason to see your xMW to update her on your wonderful new life, unasked, uninvited? Knowing she did not want to see you at all? (I'm sorry. I know this hurts.) Would you have to talk about your new girlfriend? Where you guys were travelling? Issues your son still had (My husband adored this boy!) Afterwards, when you saw her on the street with a co-worker, would you ake to speak to her in private, to the point the co-worker is looking at you uncomfortably? Would you ask her is she thought you were a bad person? Would you then ask her if she thought you should continue pursuing this new realtionship with your new woman? Do you see what I am talking about? Does that strike you as manipulative? It did me.
Author Spark1111 Posted November 25, 2009 Author Posted November 25, 2009 Have you ever had an experience that was so overwhelming that reality was too much to bear? That you just wanted to shut off for awhile? It's not about being delusional, but about not making things harder for yourself. Calling Spark back may have just been more than she could bear at the time. Yes, I have Brokenlady. My husband's affair. I waited 18 months Post DDAy, to make 3 kind closure phone calls. It was too much for me to bear. I wouldn't have been ready any earlier. I have tremendous reserves of empathy for people in pain. Myself included. I would never have called her again. But she broke NC in a very flagrant brazen manner.
Author Spark1111 Posted November 25, 2009 Author Posted November 25, 2009 We'll never be able to look into someone else's mind completely. So there's no reason to go on and on about what it all could have meant... only the OW knows the truth and she's not here to tell her side of the story. She might even think you're the stalker . Calling her two years after the affair, just because she paid him a small visit in his office. I can already hear her comments to her girlfriends: 'Man this woman is crazy, she absolutely went beserk when she found out I had been to his office when I was in the neighbourhood. I didn't throw myself on his desk, just a hello and to see how he was doing and to tell how I was doing and because of that she needs to call me when I'm working! This woman is so not over it, she needs a shrink quickly. And pretending to be calm and composed and friendly, but I could just feel the tension underneath it all. (Am not saying this is the truth, but I'm sure this is the story she's mentioning) roseroserose, this was no small visit. It was strange. It made him uncomfortable and he told her so. She refused to leave. She pushed every emotional button. We talked about it and I said I would call. He supported me in my decision. I do not care how she spins it to anyone. My husband and I know the truth. That's all that matters to me.
Mini-Me Posted November 25, 2009 Posted November 25, 2009 Mini-me, I get your pain, I truly do. Would you have found a reason to see your xMW to update her on your wonderful new life, unasked, uninvited? Knowing she did not want to see you at all? (I'm sorry. I know this hurts.) Would you have to talk about your new girlfriend? Where you guys were travelling? Issues your son still had (My husband adored this boy!) Afterwards, when you saw her on the street with a co-worker, would you ake to speak to her in private, to the point the co-worker is looking at you uncomfortably? Would you ask her is she thought you were a bad person? Would you then ask her if she thought you should continue pursuing this new realtionship with your new woman? Do you see what I am talking about? Does that strike you as manipulative? It did me. Now, let's make sure you know where I am coming from, and that is NOT from an arguementative point of view... My "heeere we go" was regarding the "craziness", I'm sorry, "nutjob" indications that are flying around... NOT what you did or how you handled it. I get what you are saying, BUT, I can only guess that this person was looking for some sort of "acceptance" from your husband. He "moved on". She struggled. And I think the thing that is bothering me a little is the "discounting" of what they had and what it means now. We all get that "it's over, forever", but c'mon... Let me say it this way: We cared, CARED about each other. I know it is over , and it is over forever. I, we, still "care" about each other, we just can't say it, and I am cool with that.. BUT, I know it,,, Now IF I ran into her on the street, at the store, the mall, whatever, you are damn straight I will ask her "how she is doing, how the kids, who I "loved" are doing".. doesnt mean I will "pursue" her..... anyway, I am sure your OW had a "personal BRIEF agenda" that I am sure was ad libbed as it went along, just as her reactions were with you....
stampdaddy Posted November 25, 2009 Posted November 25, 2009 I would have to second what Mini Me said
gopher Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 I don't think the OW is owed any closure. Plus, if you want to discount Spark's opinion on her being a "nutjob" ,than I would discount any idea that it was a "brief" agenda.
joyz Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 I tell her I only had empathy in my heart for her because three people in a triangle, three get hurt. Until she didn't return my calls. That's when I realized she was a less evolved woman who did not own her choices. Had she had the courage to return my calls, I only had one question for her: How did you give yourself permission to do to me, what your ex did to you? Woman to woman, I could never wrap my head around that. She apologetically, almost hysterically, said that I had no idea what was going on that day in her life, and my calls were escalating. I said three? calls? and that was months ago. You couldn't return my calls in the last six months? Comments? i think this is where the conversation became emotional on both ends and she became defensive. you could have gotten your answer if you controlled your emotions and allowed yourself to listen to what she had to say. OW: you have no idea what was going on that day in life and your calls were escalating Sparks: i'm sorry if my calls came at a bad time. pause... i would really like to know why my husband, why did you allowed yourself to do this to me, what your ex did to you? OW: answer Sparks, in the end, your husband chose what was best for him, which is staying with you. it looks like he will stick with that decision no matter what. so really, its up to you how you want to live the rest of your relationship. life is not perfect. you been blessed with many years of happy marriage, and 2 bad years. not that many people can say had been madly in love with their spouse for 20+ years . A happily ever after is by far an entitlement. We get hurt by the one we love the most for a purpose. It could be to learn to truly forgive. I hope you find peace.
Author Spark1111 Posted November 26, 2009 Author Posted November 26, 2009 Now, let's make sure you know where I am coming from, and that is NOT from an arguementative point of view... My "heeere we go" was regarding the "craziness", I'm sorry, "nutjob" indications that are flying around... NOT what you did or how you handled it. I get what you are saying, BUT, I can only guess that this person was looking for some sort of "acceptance" from your husband. He "moved on". She struggled. And I think the thing that is bothering me a little is the "discounting" of what they had and what it means now. We all get that "it's over, forever", but c'mon... Let me say it this way: We cared, CARED about each other. I know it is over , and it is over forever. I, we, still "care" about each other, we just can't say it, and I am cool with that.. BUT, I know it,,, Now IF I ran into her on the street, at the store, the mall, whatever, you are damn straight I will ask her "how she is doing, how the kids, who I "loved" are doing".. doesnt mean I will "pursue" her..... anyway, I am sure your OW had a "personal BRIEF agenda" that I am sure was ad libbed as it went along, just as her reactions were with you.... I would not expect any less if they bumped into each other accidentally. O f course they cared deeply for each other at one time in their lives, for a long time. We even discussed the very real possibility of it, and I vowed to be okay with it as long as I was informed. That's reality. But this struck me as manipulative to HIM. Every one of his buttons pushed; guilt, jealousy, guidance, sympathy, in an environment where he was not able to freely express himself, the workplace. This wasn't a random, "How've you been? Good to see you." Do you OM get this? Have you ever felt this with your xMW? Used, manipulated, not just during the course of the affair, but then afterwards? Didn't it make you angry?
turnstone Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Maybe she didn't think she had that kind of power over him still? I used to think you were incredibly sympathetic, almost overly so and I still think you've shown incredible fortitude. However, this thread demonstrates another part of you. You seem very over-excited about the fact she may not be perfect and seem to be revelling in the fact. Not that I blame you, not at all. Infact I empathise with you far more now.
Mini-Me Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Do you OM get this? Have you ever felt this with your xMW? Used, manipulated, not just during the course of the affair, but then afterwards? Didn't it make you angry? Of course, Sparky... you know what? I definately don'twant it to seem that I am discounting what you feel, or how you saw things the other day.. I guess I can relate to your exOW and, like others, don't consider myself a nutjob. I mean look at me: do I look crazy to you??? its funny, I did run into my exMW at the grocery store about 3 weeks ago. VERY awkward. Of course the questions were asked, BUT, it was ME that was getting upset (angry) at the intire situation and her selfishness. She even made the comment that "her husband knew I would track her down". WTF?? I was buying food. Then I got the NC letter, from husband... OK..
Author Spark1111 Posted November 26, 2009 Author Posted November 26, 2009 Maybe she didn't think she had that kind of power over him still? I used to think you were incredibly sympathetic, almost overly so and I still think you've shown incredible fortitude. However, this thread demonstrates another part of you. You seem very over-excited about the fact she may not be perfect and seem to be revelling in the fact. Not that I blame you, not at all. Infact I empathise with you far more now. Revelling, OMG, No! Just discovering a side to her he never did at the time.
Mini-Me Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Revelling, OMG, No! Just discovering a side to her he never did at the time. AND, he saw sides of her you havent seen......
Author Spark1111 Posted November 26, 2009 Author Posted November 26, 2009 Do you OM get this? Have you ever felt this with your xMW? Used, manipulated, not just during the course of the affair, but then afterwards? Didn't it make you angry? Of course, Sparky... you know what? I definately don'twant it to seem that I am discounting what you feel, or how you saw things the other day.. I guess I can relate to your exOW and, like others, don't consider myself a nutjob. I mean look at me: do I look crazy to you??? its funny, I did run into my exMW at the grocery store about 3 weeks ago. VERY awkward. Of course the questions were asked, BUT, it was ME that was getting upset (angry) at the intire situation and her selfishness. She even made the comment that "her husband knew I would track her down". WTF?? I was buying food. Then I got the NC letter, from husband... OK.. Oh, Mini-me.....ouch! Your innocent encounter got spun big time for the effect of ......what? Making her husband jealous?....ouch! YOU did not derserve that. Perhaps, another drama queen? Sorry about that.
Mini-Me Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Oh, Mini-me.....ouch! Your innocent encounter got spun big time for the effect of ......what? Making her husband jealous?....ouch! YOU did not derserve that. Perhaps, another drama queen? Sorry about that. I'm ok, but thanks.. here is the deal. Husband knows "most" of the details, but not all... and it is the "all" that mattered most, and it is that omission of what was "all of us" that in it's own way, hurts me the most... And, IF I was to talk to him, if he called me, I might be tempted to say the exact same thing to him that your OW said to you, "you don't know "all"...... I doubt I would, however, cause what difference does it make in the end, for me??
Author Spark1111 Posted November 30, 2009 Author Posted November 30, 2009 I'm ok, but thanks.. here is the deal. Husband knows "most" of the details, but not all... and it is the "all" that mattered most, and it is that omission of what was "all of us" that in it's own way, hurts me the most... And, IF I was to talk to him, if he called me, I might be tempted to say the exact same thing to him that your OW said to you, "you don't know "all"...... I doubt I would, however, cause what difference does it make in the end, for me?? I am not sure. But as a person who prizes truth above all, I would want to know all. Truth helps me wrap my head around my reality those two years when I thought he was working late. Truth helps me understand what I am suppose tor forgive to heal. Truth helps me be a better partner and person. And I am somewhat amazed, for how much this episode must have hurt the OW, that she did not have some questions for.....ME. But she didn't. Not a one. Maybe I am naive, but wouldn't some truths from me have helped her too? Or is it easier, in the long haul, to continue to believe the lies as told to you by the MP you fell in love with?
Brokenlady Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 IAnd I am somewhat amazed, for how much this episode must have hurt the OW, that she did not have some questions for.....ME. But she didn't. Not a one. Maybe I am naive, but wouldn't some truths from me have helped her too? Or is it easier, in the long haul, to continue to believe the lies as told to you by the MP you fell in love with? I just don't think it's appropriate for an OW to ask a BS anything. The questions are surely there, but a BS doesn't really owe the OW an explanation. For instance, I would be curious to know if he was telling the truth about not having sex with his ex-wife while they were still together. But why should she tell ME that? (The "me" who shouldn't have been having sex with her H, let alone concerned about whether they were having sex while they were M). And besides, I suspect she'd lie just to hurt me, just like I suspect OW's may be tempted to lie to the BS when confronted. Whoever gets left alone at the end of the day has every reason to lie. On the other hand, a BS who keeps her H may be just as tempted to lie so that there doesn't appear to be a vulnerability for the MM to go back to the affair at any point. Either way, I don't much see the point in an OW trying to ask a BS anything. Since it's been such a long time since the A ended, additional informtaion would probably just be more hurtful to the OW than anything else. Also, having been caught a bit off guard, she probably thought of hundred different things to ask or say after the call was over. Maybe she just didn't think to ask anything at the time.
PhoenixRise Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 I am not sure. But as a person who prizes truth above all, I would want to know all. Truth helps me wrap my head around my reality those two years when I thought he was working late. Truth helps me understand what I am suppose tor forgive to heal. Truth helps me be a better partner and person. And I am somewhat amazed, for how much this episode must have hurt the OW, that she did not have some questions for.....ME. But she didn't. Not a one. Maybe I am naive, but wouldn't some truths from me have helped her too? Or is it easier, in the long haul, to continue to believe the lies as told to you by the MP you fell in love with? Spark I think it is likely that she didn't ask you any questions because she already THINKS she knows everything about you and your M. You see it on the OW forum all the time...the AP thinks they know all the pieces of the puzzle regarding the marital relationship when all they know is what they have been told by the WS....that is the only "truth" that exists for many of them. In my case I know many of the details regarding the sex and the conversations my H and OW shared... there is nothing else that she could have said to me that would have hurt me more than the existence of the affair itself. BUT what she DIDN'T know was huge. She heard him blame me for all of his unhappiness...but she didn't know where his pain was really coming from....but I knew....
PhoenixRise Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 I just don't think it's appropriate for an OW to ask a BS anything. The questions are surely there, but a BS doesn't really owe the OW an explanation. Maybe she just didn't think to ask anything at the time. You may be right Brokenlady about her motivations I know when I spoke to the OW in my situation she did ask questions and make comments designed to get information... AND she did want to know if me and my H were still having sex.. I told her the truth... of course we were having sex and quite often. In my case I didn't exaggerate but I can see how that temptation would be there from both the OW and the BS. My husband had apparently told her we were not having sex at all...this seems to be the standard lie of H who cheat.
Author Spark1111 Posted November 30, 2009 Author Posted November 30, 2009 I just don't think it's appropriate for an OW to ask a BS anything. The questions are surely there, but a BS doesn't really owe the OW an explanation. For instance, I would be curious to know if he was telling the truth about not having sex with his ex-wife while they were still together. But why should she tell ME that? (The "me" who shouldn't have been having sex with her H, let alone concerned about whether they were having sex while they were M). And besides, I suspect she'd lie just to hurt me, just like I suspect OW's may be tempted to lie to the BS when confronted. Whoever gets left alone at the end of the day has every reason to lie. On the other hand, a BS who keeps her H may be just as tempted to lie so that there doesn't appear to be a vulnerability for the MM to go back to the affair at any point. Either way, I don't much see the point in an OW trying to ask a BS anything. Since it's been such a long time since the A ended, additional informtaion would probably just be more hurtful to the OW than anything else. Also, having been caught a bit off guard, she probably thought of hundred different things to ask or say after the call was over. Maybe she just didn't think to ask anything at the time. You make some very valid points, and I do agree. There could be great temptation to lie and to spin no matter what side of the triangle you fall on. But I believe affairs thrive in secrecy and the parties involved need it to remain so, so it can continue. Two years, post DDAY, i want to shine a big spotlight on it all. I certainly can understand why she may not. I get it. Afterall, she does NOT really know me, only what he told her, which of course, she believed as gospel because she hoped for a future with him. I get that. But she did not get the future with him. I, personally, would be very curious, but maybe that's just me.
Author Spark1111 Posted November 30, 2009 Author Posted November 30, 2009 Spark I think it is likely that she didn't ask you any questions because she already THINKS she knows everything about you and your M. You see it on the OW forum all the time...the AP thinks they know all the pieces of the puzzle regarding the marital relationship when all they know is what they have been told by the WS....that is the only "truth" that exists for many of them. In my case I know many of the details regarding the sex and the conversations my H and OW shared... there is nothing else that she could have said to me that would have hurt me more than the existence of the affair itself. BUT what she DIDN'T know was huge. She heard him blame me for all of his unhappiness...but she didn't know where his pain was really coming from....but I knew.... I guess... you are eloquently stating my point! And is it then easier to say that Bas**D lied to me and broke my heart, and be in pain two years later, without questioning what the lies were? It truly doesn't matter for some people to know the truth of two years of their life????? Do they want to stay stuck in the pain and melodrama? I mean, I OWN my choices, as well as my mistakes! The us against them attitude, does nothing to promote growth and healing, IMHO.
Brokenlady Posted November 30, 2009 Posted November 30, 2009 I guess... you are eloquently stating my point! And is it then easier to say that Bas**D lied to me and broke my heart, and be in pain two years later, without questioning what the lies were? It truly doesn't matter for some people to know the truth of two years of their life????? Do they want to stay stuck in the pain and melodrama? I mean, I OWN my choices, as well as my mistakes! The us against them attitude, does nothing to promote growth and healing, IMHO. After 2 years she may be moved on from the point of needing to hate him. Or maybe not. It may be that she isn't convinced that you would have given her the truth if she asked, especially in light of whatever your H told her about you. And also, it's possible that its easier for her to think your H stayed with you "for the kids", money, etc - anything to keep it from being a choice of love. If she talked to you and then had reason to question your H's real motivation, the idea that he just loved you more- that could be even more crushing and I could see why she'd want to avoid that. Is it not better to think of a great love affair lost than to realize it was all a game for some selfish man? I think it depends on your perspective.
Author Spark1111 Posted December 1, 2009 Author Posted December 1, 2009 After 2 years she may be moved on from the point of needing to hate him. Or maybe not. It may be that she isn't convinced that you would have given her the truth if she asked, especially in light of whatever your H told her about you. And also, it's possible that its easier for her to think your H stayed with you "for the kids", money, etc - anything to keep it from being a choice of love. If she talked to you and then had reason to question your H's real motivation, the idea that he just loved you more- that could be even more crushing and I could see why she'd want to avoid that. Is it not better to think of a great love affair lost than to realize it was all a game for some selfish man? I think it depends on your perspective. Great points, BL! But if I was still hurt and angry and blaming, as she appeared to be on the phone with me, have I grown? Healed? Introspected? Because as a former newspaper reporter, I know the truth lies somewhere in the middle of single perspectives, and in trying to ascertain the truth of a situation is the start of understanding and healing, IMHO. I think believing any situation is all black, or all white is very self-limiting. In a triangle, no one is the villian, no one the hero. We all are in shades of gray.
foreal Posted December 1, 2009 Posted December 1, 2009 Is it not better to think of a great love affair lost than to realize it was all a game for some selfish man? It would be really hard to accept that your great love was really just a game for some selfish man. ...much the way it is hard to accept your own H who cheats was just playing a selfish game and risked it all, not for true love, but for something else- a very sad 'else". great point Brokenlady...
Brokenlady Posted December 1, 2009 Posted December 1, 2009 Great points, BL! But if I was still hurt and angry and blaming, as she appeared to be on the phone with me, have I grown? Healed? Introspected? Because as a former newspaper reporter, I know the truth lies somewhere in the middle of single perspectives, and in trying to ascertain the truth of a situation is the start of understanding and healing, IMHO. I think believing any situation is all black, or all white is very self-limiting. In a triangle, no one is the villian, no one the hero. We all are in shades of gray. Spark, you are still hurt and sometimes angry aren't you? What happened to both of you was heartwrenching, and everyone deals with things differently. She probably still has a long way to go towards healing. I know I will probably still feel the after-effects of what I've been through 2 years from now. Right now, it may be easier for her to cope by thinking they were star-crossed lovers, rather than he just loved you more. She may eventually come to a point where she no longer shes you as the enemy, but you'll probably never know about it. I'm sure it would be comforting for you to feel like she has found peace, (and is no longer is a threat to your marriage). (In my case, I would have felt more at ease if DM's ex-wife had moved on even though I am fairly certain he will not go back to her. It just felt like an open wound that needed to be completely closed, and the lack of closure by her refusal to move on bothered me.) But ultimately, you can't get too caught up thinking about where her head and heart are at, it's a distraction from your marriage. (I found it very hard to let go of wondering where his ex-wife was at emotionally, but it was killing me).
Author Spark1111 Posted December 7, 2009 Author Posted December 7, 2009 An update: Now that we have successfully TOGETHER dealt with her breaking NC, here is what I am left with: EGO (for that WOMAN you risked it, us, all????????????) and, WHY IS it so hard for you to talk to me??????? Is it me? I percieve I have calmly asked questions, and it is either: A) Answered quickly, but then a let's move on attitude presents, or B)He is angery I even asked. Who's problem is this? His, mine, who's? Sometimes, I still feel like we can't move forward because I have not had enough conversation about it. Is it me?
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