Have you forgiven? Will you ever?

[Gabriele]

I am wondering what forgiveness looks like....

 

How long did it take before you could?

maybe you feel like you never will be able to?

what does forgiveness mean to you?

what are you or your partner doing to work towards it?

Do you even want to forgive?

Do you feel like in order to heal/really move forward in a healthy relationship there has to be forgiveness?

 

any thoughts? I am not there, don't know what it looks like, don't think my lips could ever mutter the words.

 

Gabriele

[seibert253]

2 years out, still working on it. Not there yet. Alot better than I was. It's hard to explain, I've forgiven her mostly, but not completely. I don't know if I ever will. I really want to, but it's just not totally there.

 

She hasn't forgiven herself. She still carries alot of guilt.

[realworldexplorer]

How long did it take before you could?

 

20 months out, still have ambivilance, traumatic psychological injury heals very slowly. Forgiving will definitely help this.

 

maybe you feel like you never will be able to?

 

I will be able to, whether or not I stay with WS. A great chunk of this forgiveness will be based on the steep learning curve that WS must climb with regard to selflessness and honesty. Anything ever happens again all bets are off and I am gonzo.

 

what does forgiveness mean to you?

 

Releasing her debt, while releasing my pain and suffering absolutely free of charge.

 

what are you or your partner doing to work towards it?

 

Trying to be nice to each other with the odd bout of hysterical bonding thrown in. Just kidding, actually MC, IC and reading everything ever written about infidelity (mostly me).

 

Do you even want to forgive?

 

Yes. For mostly selfish reasons.

 

Do you feel like in order to heal/really move forward in a healthy relationship there has to be forgiveness?

 

Of course.

 

any thoughts? I am not there, don't know what it looks like, don't think my lips could ever mutter the words.

 

It will take a long time (if WS does everything right) ie. 2-5 years min.

It will be a gradual process (not an epiphany), like a slow dissipation of pain, rage, humiliation and anxiety that will lead to a hopefully peaceful, honest and loving place. Hope springs eternal but infidelity and illicit love really sucks and can be beyond most humanoids ability to forgive. It takes a lot of energy, observation and determination to get your head around it and try to rise above someone elses unecessary, senseless, irrational and selfish mess. Someone who gains power from anothers destruction will always be hard to forgive. I have to try.

 

 

 

good luck

[LakesideDream]

No... and No. What's the point. Relationship is gone. There is no contact. There is nothing to forgive.. she has no value to me at all.

 

I'm sure the majority of women feel the same.

[lori22]

I'm not sure my xH has told me he has forgivin me sometimes it seems like he has and sometimes I notice him hurt and quiet towards me.

[hopesndreams]

I once believed forgiveness was a necessity to help free myself from pain. I thought I did forgive him but in actuality, I have not. My pain is still here. Is forgiveness the right thing to do? Does it matter? Those that hurt you need to ask for that forgiveness and it doesn't mean you have to give it to them. You may think you have given it because you want to so bad, believing that it is the right thing to do, but it doesn't mean you were really able to. At least that is what I've found with me.

 

One day I might get there but until then, I won't be beating myself up over it when it just isn't in me yet to do it and it may never be.

[bentnotbroken]

Forgiveness isn't a one time deal for a betrayal that causes death. The death of a relationship, the death of dreams, the death of memories, the death of trust, the death of who you thought the WS was.

 

Forgiveness is an on going process. It is a building a new bridge that allows you to walk away from the past pain and and see it from a distance. Forgiveness may start out as a second by second process that gradually moves into permanence.

 

As painful memories, triggers or unanswered questions come up, you may find yourself needing to forgive the offender once again. It is nothing to be afraid of, ashamed of or unwilling to face.

 

Where is it written that the words "I forgive you" must be uttered. Those words can so easily pass our lips, yet never penetrate the one place it should have the most effect...our hearts. Forgiveness has to come from the heart. It has to come from the place you would want someone else to give you the same courtesy. We all need forgiveness for some transgression. We all desire to be forgiven when we know we have hurt someone and feel remorse for that pain.

 

If you desire forgiveness for anything, then the process has to begin with you and forgiving someone else. It won't be an overnight occurrence, maybe not in years. But it should be a goal that one works toward. Because in the long run the forgiver is the recipient of the healing. It doesn't require you to remain in contact with the offender or to have a relationship with that person. It only requires that you get to a place for the wounds to heal and the scars to fade.

[Snowflower]

Forgiveness isn't a one time deal for a betrayal that causes death. The death of a relationship, the death of dreams, the death of memories, the death of trust, the death of who you thought the WS was.

 

Forgiveness is an on going process. It is a building a new bridge that allows you to walk away from the past pain and and see it from a distance. Forgiveness may start out as a second by second process that gradually moves into permanence.

 

As painful memories, triggers or unanswered questions come up, you may find yourself needing to forgive the offender once again. It is nothing to be afraid of, ashamed of or unwilling to face.

 

 

This is really nice, bent. Thanks for writing this.

 

I have always been confused about the concept of forgiveness. It was quite a topic for me in IC.

 

I'm still not all the way there in forgiveness for what my H did, but I am pretty far along. Sometimes I think I have forgiven him and sometimes I think I haven't. I like what you wrote about needing to forgive again when I am in pain once again. I had never thought of it like that.

[MadMission]

I think forgiveness CAN come easily in the rare 'text book' situation where the WS:

 

*willingly confessed the A (unprompted)

*consistantly shows genuine regret and remorse

*100% owns the A, without ANY blame on BS

*recognizes that A was driven by issues within himself and is willing to do IC/MC, read books, and research to gain understanding and insight as to WHY he made A choices and how to safegaurd from it ever happening again

*shows genuine love and care for the wounded BS by 'being there' to support the BS through the shock and pain

*willingly answers ALL questions

*is patient with BS while their emotions are all over the place

*makes healing their BS and M a top priority, above all other things in their life

*reaches out to BS, in very personal and intimate ways, to bring them in from the curb to which they were kicked

*sees the affair partner for WHO they really are and ALL 'feelings' for affair partner are EXTINGUISHED

*etc.

 

I think what happens is that many BS set out to forgive their WS, but when the WS does not 'do' the above list, that translates into more injury to the BS. So, it's NOT just the A, but what happens in the aftermath of d-day, which will ultimately effect a BS's ability to forgive.

How does one forgive when their WS continues to re-injure them daily, weekly, monthly after d-day? It's like the A remains 'alive' in many ways when the WS does not feel the 'right' way or do the 'right' things after d-day.

 

Many people say that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.

But, if 'forgiveness' means standing there while your WS continues to lodge more knives in you back...then I'll pass.

 

If the 'injury' ended right there...with the A itself being the ONLY thing to forgive...then forgiveness would be possible to extend.

But, it's often not that simple.

Because, often, d-day marks the BEGINNING of the 'hurts'...additional hurts which may occur daily, weekly, monthy, etc AFTER the A.

 

So, unless a WS can avoid any additional 'hurts' to their BS after d-day, by demonstrating the above list, I think any forgiveness by the BS is being extended prematurely.

[Snowflower]

I think forgiveness CAN come easily in the rare 'text book' situation where the WS:

 

*willingly confessed the A (unprompted)

*consistantly shows genuine regret and remorse

*100% owns the A, without ANY blame on BS

*recognizes that A was driven by issues within himself and is willing to do IC/MC, read books, and research to gain understanding and insight as to WHY he made A choices and how to safegaurd from it ever happening again

*shows genuine love and care for the wounded BS by 'being there' to support the BS through the shock and pain

*willingly answers ALL questions

*is patient with BS while their emotions are all over the place

*makes healing their BS and M a top priority, above all other things in their life

*reaches out to BS, in very personal and intimate ways, to bring them in from the curb to which they were kicked

*sees the affair partner for WHO they really are and ALL 'feelings' for affair partner are EXTINGUISHED

*etc.

 

I think what happens is that many BS set out to forgive their WS, but when the WS does not 'do' the above list, that translates into more injury to the BS. So, it's NOT just the A, but what happens in the aftermath of d-day, which will ultimately effect a BS's ability to forgive.

How does one forgive when their WS continues to re-injure them daily, weekly, monthly after d-day? It's like the A remains 'alive' in many ways when the WS does not feel the 'right' way or do the 'right' things after d-day.

 

Many people say that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.

But, if 'forgiveness' means standing there while your WS continues to lodge more knives in you back...then I'll pass.

 

If the 'injury' ended right there...with the A itself being the ONLY thing to forgive...then forgiveness would be possible to extend.

But, it's often not that simple.

Because, often, d-day marks the BEGINNING of the 'hurts'...additional hurts which may occur daily, weekly, monthy, etc AFTER the A.

 

So, unless a WS can avoid any additional 'hurts' to their BS after d-day, by demonstrating the above list, I think any forgiveness by the BS is being extended prematurely.

 

Where did you find this information, madmission?

 

My H really did all this stuff and our reconciliation has gone very well. It still hurts me and forgiveness is a process but I have to say my H has given 110% to healing the pain he has caused me.

 

This is a good thread for me to read because my d-day was ONE YEAR AGO TODAY! My H confessed.

 

I can't believe it's been a year. It feels weird and I realize how far we have come as a couple and as individuals.

[FreezorBurn]

Forgivness,

 

NO, I am 5 month out and no I have no forgivness, understanding or trust in my heart at all.

 

Do not know if I am capable of forgivness on this one.

 

My wife still seams to have little guilt. She still dose not see a EA as bad as a PA. "She keeps telling me they never had sex"

Edited November 24, 2009 by FreezorBurn

[seibert253]

Forgivness,

 

NO, I am 5 month out and no I have no forgivness, understanding or trust in my heart at all.

 

Do not know if I am capable of forgivness on this one.

 

My wife still seams to have little guilt. She still dose not see a EA as bad as a PA. "She keeps telling me they never had sex"

 

Freezer, you still with her? Why?

You deserve better.

[threebyfate]

I am wondering what forgiveness looks like....

 

How long did it take before you could?

maybe you feel like you never will be able to?

what does forgiveness mean to you?

what are you or your partner doing to work towards it?

Do you even want to forgive?

Do you feel like in order to heal/really move forward in a healthy relationship there has to be forgiveness?

 

any thoughts? I am not there, don't know what it looks like, don't think my lips could ever mutter the words.

 

Gabriele

Firstly, forgiveness in your WS doesn't mean you have to take them back. You can forgive but IMO, to forget, is asking for it again.

 

It took a couple of years, of forgiving in steps, to get to the point of forgiving him but not his actions. Then it took me a little while longer to forgive myself, in ever trusting him.

 

You NEED to forgive AND let go of the negative emotions. They don't do anyone any good.

 

As for moving onto a healthy relationship, it would never have happened with the ex. I found a wonderfully healthy relationship with someone else, post divorce. He's now my husband.

[Blindsidedagainalive]

How long did it take before you could?

 

I am 2 years out, and I have NOT forgiven her. I think the main reason is she understood VERY clearly my feelings on infidelity. This was something that we discussed....even the year of her affair.

 

maybe you feel like you never will be able to?

 

Yes, I feel that I may, but it may take another decade or so.

 

what does forgiveness mean to you?

 

Not taking it personally. Letting go. Not holding it against them.

 

what are you or your partner doing to work towards it?

 

She basically kisses my ass. No work, insight, book reading, therapy...just kissing ass.

 

Do you even want to forgive?

 

This is your best question IMO. I think that I don't want to deep down. It is easier to leave a spouse that you don't forgive. The anger can propel you toward splitting. Forgiveness opens the doors to staying together.

 

Do you feel like in order to heal/really move forward in a healthy relationship there has to be forgiveness?

 

Yes, absolutely.

 

any thoughts? I am not there, don't know what it looks like, don't think my lips could ever mutter the words.

 

I have read that forgiveness is a gift to oneself.

[65tr6]

I am wondering what forgiveness looks like....

 

How long did it take before you could?

 

Three months post dday, I thought i could forgive her. Two reasons, she was truely remorseful, i could tell she was stunned by how much she had hurt me...

 

maybe you feel like you never will be able to?

 

To be honest, i thought i could. It was just a matter of time.

 

what does forgiveness mean to you?

 

a big relief ! That i can move forward...no linking whatsoever whether i was going to take my wife back.

 

what are you or your partner doing to work towards it?

in my opinion you will know when it is time to forgive. For some it is very quick for some it takes ages.

 

Do you even want to forgive?

 

I think i did from the begining but wasnt sure what it meant (similar to your situation right now).

 

Do you feel like in order to heal/really move forward in a healthy relationship there has to be forgiveness?

 

YES !!! This is so important. To be in a realtionship when one spouse does not forgive the other is not healthy at all in my opinion.

 

any thoughts? I am not there, don't know what it looks like, don't think my lips could ever mutter the words.

 

You will know when it is time to forgive. If you don't know what it looks like (or feels like) then you are not there yet. Take your time.

[datura_noir]

gosh yes- I've forgiven! I handed him a packet of phone records, emails and cc bills on V-day about a year ago...his to do with as he wished. And as I handed it to him, I said the words I forgive you. That was tough, because I am a person who likes to nurture my hurts and build them up so I can appear to be a victim. But that was sick of me.

 

But, although I forgave, I have NOT forgotten, and never will. And both of us think that I never should. It keeps us on the right track.

[MadMission]

Where did you find this information, madmission?

 

Snowflower,

 

My post was generated from my own experiences and thoughts regarding my WH and his mis-management of the aftermath of d-day...all insight gained in hindsight, of course.

 

I felt genuine forgiveness toward my WH immediately after d-day.

It was definitely premature as the days, weeks, and months passed with more manipulation and self-centered behaviors by my WH.

 

I only more recently realized that the forgiveness I had once felt...sort of disipated due to ongoing additional hurts during that 1st year and thereafter.

 

Right now....I feel nothing...not forgiveness and not unforgiveness.

And, actually, I am in a very good place.

No R, but I am good anyway.

 

Your story is like a breath of fresh air....a 'success' story :-)

I wish you continued happines.

[JaneInVegas]

It's way too fresh of a wound to even consider forgiveness yet. But for me, I'll know it has finally arrived when I can make love with him and not wonder if he's thinking about her or not.

[samsungxoxo]

No... and No. What's the point. Relationship is gone. There is no contact. There is nothing to forgive.. she has no value to me at all.

I'm with you on that one.

I'm sure the majority of women feel the same.

So true, only blind men (or women) would actually stay in a relationship with no trust at all. Though still don't see why there are yet a number of women (not me) that yet takes them back. With men, thought there are still some that take them back as well, more will leave them right away. There seems to be more forgiving women than men for some reason. Pathetic to work out a fantasy....

 

I tend to hold grudges at times, depending on what the offense was like so no that would not be on my list of forgiveness. In fact, I would cheat back at him if he does it and then dump him... LOL...

Edited November 25, 2009 by samsungxoxo

[ADF]

I think forgiveness is overrated. Sorry, but I don't think there is anything so mature or adult about forgiving people who mistreat you. It's not even smart. I don't walk around seething with hatred for anyone, but there are a few people who I would NEVER speak to again. They cross a line with me, and that's it. Out of my life.

[Katerina]

I think forgiveness CAN come easily in the rare 'text book' situation where the WS:

 

*willingly confessed the A (unprompted)

*consistantly shows genuine regret and remorse

*100% owns the A, without ANY blame on BS

*recognizes that A was driven by issues within himself and is willing to do IC/MC, read books, and research to gain understanding and insight as to WHY he made A choices and how to safegaurd from it ever happening again

*shows genuine love and care for the wounded BS by 'being there' to support the BS through the shock and pain

*willingly answers ALL questions

*is patient with BS while their emotions are all over the place

*makes healing their BS and M a top priority, above all other things in their life

*reaches out to BS, in very personal and intimate ways, to bring them in from the curb to which they were kicked

*sees the affair partner for WHO they really are and ALL 'feelings' for affair partner are EXTINGUISHED

*etc.

 

 

Wow! Other than #1 (I confronted him with proof and he had no choice but confess), my H has done all of the above... Have I forgiven him? I'm not sure. I thought I did, but perhaps it was premature forgiveness... Do I want to forgive him? Yes and no... Yes, because of personal beliefs on forgiveness, and no, because I don't want him to ever take what he had done lightly.... Maybe this is wrong thinking, but this is how I feel. So 26 months later, I still struggle every day. There are good days, and there are bad days... But I know for sure that if it weren't for our 2 small children, I would have packed up my bags a long time ago.

[Katerina]

I'm divorced 7 years now. I have not forgiven her, and I never will. I'm angrier today than I was when I discovered the affair.

This is exactly what I've been thinking... By divorcing him, what would I achieve? Punish him? Maybe. But my children will also suffer... and will I be happier? Perhaps not.

[MadMission]

I don't want him to ever take what he had done lightly

 

Katerina,

 

I understand.

You don't want to EVER send your WH the message that his A was ok.

Forgiveness has that feeling to it...like you are saying "don't worry about it...it's OK"....when it was NEVER ok! And, for you, STILL isn't ok even 2 yrs later!

 

That is quite impressive that your WH did the list:

 

*willingly confessed the A (unprompted)

*consistantly shows genuine regret and remorse

*100% owns the A, without ANY blame on BS

*recognizes that A was driven by issues within himself and is willing to do IC/MC, read books, and research to gain understanding and insight as to WHY he made A choices and how to safegaurd from it ever happening again

*shows genuine love and care for the wounded BS by 'being there' to support the BS through the shock and pain

*willingly answers ALL questions

*is patient with BS while their emotions are all over the place

*makes healing their BS and M a top priority, above all other things in their life

*reaches out to BS, in very personal and intimate ways, to bring them in from the curb to which they were kicked

*sees the affair partner for WHO they really are and ALL 'feelings' for affair partner are EXTINGUISHED

*etc.

Yet, you say that if it weren't for your kids, you'd be gone.

I find that so interesting because I often wondered if my WH had done this list...if we would be R now.

Hmmmm....maybe not.

Maybe because some hurts are just TOO DEEP. Period.

Some things cannot be fixed, nor can they be undone.

[Baroness67]

Definitely, forgiveness is an ongoing process.

 

I have my up moments and my down moments. I often find that my mind runs away with me most when I am driving in the car or when there is some work-related activity that is taking my husband away from home, like a late meeting or a conference.

 

Logically I know that the rest of our lives together can't be made up of my putting a GPS on him and making him sign affidavits in blood, but it's still difficult for me to know that yes "she is there" and believe "no nothing is going on anymore." But, what am I doing to do. If I spend all my time acting like a quivering, demanding harpie, then to him, that's what I will be. I don't want that for myself, and certainly not on HER account.

 

So I guess to some extent I have "forgiven" in that I do not bring it up, it's understood that despite what happened I am committed to helping move the marriage forward - not back into the past. Doesn't make it easy, though.

 

I still have dreams (!) where I run into her at the office and say outrageous things in front of all the other employees ... but in real life, I walk the walk. Day by day.

 

Do I ever think I will 100% forgive? Hmm. Might get to the point where I don't think about it that much. I actually just had a talk with an 80 (!) year old Aunt who told me about her husband's affair 40 years ago. I guess you never really do "forget" ... but they stayed together and celebrated their 55th recently.

[Katerina]

Katerina,

 

That is quite impressive that your WH did the list:

 

*willingly confessed the A (unprompted)

*consistantly shows genuine regret and remorse

*100% owns the A, without ANY blame on BS

*recognizes that A was driven by issues within himself and is willing to do IC/MC, read books, and research to gain understanding and insight as to WHY he made A choices and how to safegaurd from it ever happening again

*shows genuine love and care for the wounded BS by 'being there' to support the BS through the shock and pain

*willingly answers ALL questions

*is patient with BS while their emotions are all over the place

*makes healing their BS and M a top priority, above all other things in their life

*reaches out to BS, in very personal and intimate ways, to bring them in from the curb to which they were kicked

*sees the affair partner for WHO they really are and ALL 'feelings' for affair partner are EXTINGUISHED

*etc.

Yet, you say that if it weren't for your kids, you'd be gone.

I find that so interesting because I often wondered if my WH had done this list...if we would be R now.

Hmmmm....maybe not.

Maybe because some hurts are just TOO DEEP. Period.

Some things cannot be fixed, nor can they be undone.

 

The problem is that there were more lies and hurtful words BEFORE he started doing all the things from the list (minus the first one... he didn't confess until I had proof). And THAT is what I'm stuck on... I can't get those words out of my head. He says he was "messed up" and "under the influence of the affair" and therefore, didn't know what he was saying... but it doesn't change things. Plus, the fact that he CHOSE to cheat on me in the first place even though the affair had nothing to do with me or our marriage (we were expecting a third baby - a happy time for us, it seemed!)... but whatever... like you said, some things hurt too much.