FeelingLonely98 Posted January 7, 2010 Posted January 7, 2010 Thank you for all these words. I am not looking for anyone to empathize with me - but I am glad you seem to sense my sincerity. Not empathy Ann - I'm being sincere as well.
Author ann09 Posted January 8, 2010 Author Posted January 8, 2010 Not empathy Ann - I'm being sincere as well. I know you are, and I greatly appreciate it.
miss mercury Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 I just want to say, that you should never hate yourself, or carry such an incredible load of guilt on your shoulders for being human. I bet you will find that a lot of people will relate to you, and who have been in your shoes. Forgive yourself, and decide whether or not you can continue to play the charade. The fact you are cheating, is only a symptom of a bad marriage, and a catalyst for it ending. You are not a monster, nor a bad person... M Ok. Deep breath. Here I go... This could be long - but I have opened myself up in a previous thread - not being honest - because I didn't want to be judged. But I can take the swings from everyone because hell it can't be any worse than what I do to myself every day. I can't even look in the mirror. So I suppose it doesn't matter what anyone has to say to me - I do a whole lot worse to myself. I need to start by saying I have always been a good person. Kind and decent. I've been the type to always do what I should. Always tried to have my parents approve. Never was a good student. Never was successful at anything. Always needed someone to guide me and take care of me. I'm delaying the rest of this thread but need to continue... 14 years ago I got married. I truly believed he was the right one. I have known him my entire life. We went to school together since 1st grade. Such a "cute" story and we got plenty of "awww's" from everyone we told it too. Our families have always known eachother. We went to the same church. We had always kept in touch. he was never my type - but I loved him as a friend. I hadn't seen him in 5 years - just sent Christmas cards to eachother each year and he would make it a point to call when he was home from college. He was a dear friend but I had no attraction for him. I found out years later he had kept my picture on his wall in college and told everyone I was his dream girl. Wow. What girl wouldn't love that. I bumped into him after 5 yrs of not seeing him. He had changed. He was very "grown up" looking. Business suit at 23 yrs old. Getting his masters. Serious. So unlike the guy I had been just dating whom my family didn't like. He asked me out, I said yes. He was different and seemed so enamored with me. I couldn't believe a guy like that liked me. Surely something was wrong with him! My parents were thrilled. They loved his family and kept hinting to me that I would be taken care of, secure etc. With all the weddings I was attending - I got excited at the prospect of living the life I had always wanted. I never wanted to be anything but a mother and a (good) wife. He bought a house (a house!) and asked me to marry him soon after dating. I was ecstatic. We had fun together. The sex wasn't good - although he would argue with that now. I wasn't completely attracted to him but I thought it was only because of me - that I needed to grow up - that sex and being superficial wasn't a huge part of life. We had a beautiful wedding but I can now remember distinctly feeling a constant "nag" telling me this wasn't right. I shrugged that feeling off. Grow up Ann! This guy is perfect! He's safe and secure and loves you! And you love him! And I did - just not that head over heels love I had felt in the past. But I digress.... We reach our honeymoon destination after a day of traveling and get to the hotel room and I burst into tears. He asks what's wrong and I tell him I don't know. I didnt. I chalked it up the letdown of a year of planning a wedding and having it all be over - emotional etc. I got over it. We had a nice honeymoon. Not the passionate one I had always dreamed of. But we had fun. Came home after 10 days and I remember feeling so down. Aren't newlyweds supposed to feel bliss? Well, again, I just needed to grow up. Stop being immature. He guided me - told me what to do and when to do it. I liked it at the time. He was very much like my dad. I needed that I suppose. I was a spend thrift and him a saver. he got my act together. Yelled at me if I didn't do what I was supposed to. Held the credit card so I had to ask him for it when I needed it. Didn't seem so bad but I suppose over time it's hard to feel close to someone that over the years seems more like a father to you. Fast forward a year. I wanted a baby. Surely a baby would make me feel closer to him. It would be ours. Together. We would parent together and I would fall in love with him as a father. I had read that so many times. I also wanted to do something for the first time in my life I was proud of. Besides, we had nothing in common. He would never tell me about work. When I asked he would pat me on the head and say, "you wouldn't understand honey. Don't worry about it". His nick name for me turned into "kiddo". Eeeks. Kiddo?? I voiced to him that I hated that. Still called me that and still does. I am into music. He's not. Small minor thing - but hard when a passion you have isn't shared. I'm funny and thrive off humor. He's not. Tries to be....but I guess it's no biggie. I have friends who can make me laugh...get me. He never has but never thought it would be a big deal. So many differences and too many to list here. I slowly grew to realize the only time I had fun with him was when we were both drinking. We had a baby - then two more. I became supermom. Absorbed myself in my kids. They consumed me each and everyday. I didn't think so much about my unhappiness because I was too focused on being a mom. And I loved every minute of it (still do). Him and I were "fine". Surely most young couples with 3 small kids weren't having exciting passionate sex lives. I didn't think it abnormal at all. I look at old home movies from those days and see the sad woman I was even back then. What little sex we had was as bad as it was in the beginning - but again, I thought little of it. As long as he was satisfied I didn't care about me. I was a mother and mothers shouldn't care about sex. I was overweight - and never had been before in my life. I was a mess. I look at pictures from back then and think "holy **** who was that girl???" Even my kids laugh and don't recognize me back then ("Mommy you looked funny!") After I had my daughter 7 yrs ago and we decided we were done having kids I started looking in the mirror. Here I was in this loveless marriage. Realizing my husband and I had nothing to talk about except the kids. Realizing that I had to force myself to kiss him when he got home from work and had to ignore and suppress all feelings of unattraction for him. Sex was hard for me. The entire time I kept hearing the words in my head "no no no". It was as close to being raped as I can imagine. I had a hard time kissing him - I didn't feel anything. But tried SO hard. I never wanted to hurt his feelings so I put on a good act. Afterwards I would hide in the bathroom, turn on the faucet, and bawl my eyes out. He would knock, "are you ok?" "yep, I am ok - be out in a minute". Dry eyes, look in the mirror and smile. What was wrong with me?? I have everything! Nice house, healthy kids, husband that doesn't treat me badly, I get to stay at home....why the hell was I sad?? Selfish bitch I thought. Go be a good wife. Clean, cook, take care of the kids and your husband. Smile for god sake! Slowly the weight came off. I worked at it. Grew my hair long like it used to be. Bought new clothes. Head held higher as my confidence grew. Attention from men I haven't had in YEARS. I am not just a mommy! I am a woman - wow - completely forgot about that! So sad that everyone else is noticing this except my husband. Sex is still bad - then there is one incident that changes everything. We have friends over and there is a lot of drinking. I go upstairs later and pass out on the bed (damn pinot grigio!). Not really passed out but unable to move. He's downstairs and cleaning up - god love him. Comes upstairs, I can't speak I'm so drunk. I am on my stomach. he pulls down my pants and proceeds to have sex with me. Finishes, and leaves. Oh my god I have never told anyone this before and it's weird seeing it in print. I remember feeling like - did my husband just rape me?? nooooooo. We're married! Poor guy doesn't get much sex out of me so who can blame him?? We have never talked about it. It was so many years ago he probably won't remember it. He's a good husband so why even think about it. Your own husband can't actually rape you right? Fast forward again a few more years. I go online to a chatroom of a tv show I love watching. Discussing the show at length. Harmless fun - not hiding it from husband - not doing anything wrong. Within a year I meet a man. Going through a divorce. Sad and pathetic as me. He loves everything I do. We can't talk enough. Husband travels and me OM talk so much - sometimes 7 hours all through the night. I can't get enough of finally relating to someone and them relating to me. We are so much alike it's scary. We meet - and instantly I know that he is the one. I am summing this up in a few short lines. I know it sounds high schoolish - but I don't know how to explain it. He encourages me as best he can to work on my marriage. I try. Push him away a thousand times. He walks away a thousand times. But I never stop thinking of him. Want to but just can't. Everything is right when I am with him. EVerything. It's a friendship unlike any other. It's a love like nothing I have ever experienced. he doesn't have half of what my husband does - but when I am with him - I want nothing - just time with him. This isn't about sex - this is about fully enjoying the company of another. Knowing this is the person I would be happy with. My husband found out about him. I came clean - although not admitting my love for this other man. He took control and told me we would start from square one and work on this. I got scared and agreed. I vowed to change. Dad seemed to have entered the room - pointed his finger at me and told me that he would not let me go, ever. Last winter I decided to go to therapy. He believed we didn't need couples therapy. There was something wrong with me and not him. I needed help - not us. I went. And loved it (still do). I learned so much about myself. The massive guilt over what I have done came out. I started to rebuild myself from the inside. All along still loving this other man. I couldn't breathe without him. Never out of my thoughts. Never wanted him to be. When you meet the right one, how are you supposed to forget them? Last July, at the urging of my best friend and my brother, I sat down with my husband and told him exactly how I feel about him. I told him that I loved him but didn't feel attraction to him (he knew this - it was obvious). I told him that I have tremendous guilt over what I had done to him and that he deserved better than me. He sat stone faced and said "I will not let you go, ever". He agreed to marriage counseling. But pulled a few tricks on me - one where he was supposed to meet me at counseling but then cancelled it - took me to lunch instead - bought a bottle of wine and said "we don't need counseling". Um. Really? Eventually counseling happens. I am painfully honest. It's the worst thing I have ever had to do. Hurting this man who has given me a beautiful life. This man who works his tail off to support his family. All therapy did was open up so much and hurt him so much. It was draining. I went to my parents and told them everything. They were shocked, dismayed, disappointed. Here I am. Still overwhelmingly unhappy. Thinking of my life with him with complete unhappiness. Trying to smile for my kids sake. In love deeply with someone else who won't be there for me much longer. Knowing that if I lose him - I am letting the greatest thing go from my life. Knowing that I could never love my husband that way and by staying I am keeping him too from being with someone that could love him. But he is about perception and would stay this way forever - people like him don't get divorced. My god what would everyone say? He thinks I can develop feelings of love for him. I want to believe him but I know the truth. So here I am - an awful, lying, cheating, disgusting person. I feel most days I have no reason to live - until I look at my children and I know I can't leave them. If it wasn't for them I don't think I could survive all this. But I have done it to myself. I made a decision 14 yrs ago and have to live with it right? So what if in 20 years I look back on my sad, pathetic life and have regrets. I sort of deserve that. I don't feel like I deserve much happiness. If I divorce him I will "destroy my family" as my mother has told me recently. Thats a huge responsibility right there. My husband is willing to go meet with a mediator - I don't think he wants to - and I think by showing me how much my life will change financially I will change my mind. But here's the thing - I don't want everything while I am miserable. I would rather have nothing and be happy. I don't even want anything from him. I want him to be happy, secure, and with the kids as much as possible. I want everything for him. I care deeply for him. I just don't love him like a wife should. It has nothing to do with anyone else in my life. Because I have realized, even without that person there for me - I would be happier living on my own with just my kids than with someone I am not happy with. So the last time we had sex was too long ago to remember. I tried so hard to feel it. I remember feeling that raped feeling all over again. He got up and walked away - fully satisfied. I laid there unable to breathe. Got up, went to the bathroom and threw up. I looked in the mirror and thought, "never again Ann. Don't ever do that to yourself again." And I haven't. I know and expect horrible replies to this thread. I am afraid of them. Scared to death. Always worried about what people will think of me. My heart is pounding in anticipation of what you all think of me. I am terrified......
Steadfast Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) ...because I said I wouldn't post on this thread again. But I have to; the draw is too strong to ignore. At least one more time, and here's why. Tonight, I re-read your original post. Word for word. Carefully. Again. I again recognized so many of the patterns that existed in my marriage. The details and foundations were different; we had a whirlwind romance and married after dating for only four months, but her deep fear and regret were obvious from the start. I was older, wiser, more experienced and would take care of her. She liked it and admired me for it; I was a real 'catch' and her family told her so. Lots of passion at first (although I never 'forced' myself on her) but something wasn't right and I knew it. Just like in your marriage. I remember well all the times she sighed in resignation before kissing me. All the times she turned away in bed when I reached for her. The disappointment she expressed in me for not sharing her passions. I also remember all the things I did for her. I busted my ass for sixteen-years and so many of these things brought her so much happiness and security. I think she misses that. I cherished her and put her on a pedestal. She was a good mother and that kept her true, but when the kids got older and she 'spread her wings' in the workforce, the inevitable happened. Two flawed people, one flawed marriage. One person truly in love, the other immersed in obligation. Like your husband, I adored my wife. My 'dream girl'. My control wasn't controlling, but simply how I expressed my care and concern. Over time and because I was afraid, I brushed off and kicked dirt over her true feelings. I tried to love enough for both of us. The truth was, I was too scared to face it and she was too chicken to tell me how she really felt. Until she had sex with someone else. That sealed the deal. She left long before I knew she had and her fear turned into disdain for me. It can't be ignored that she -like you- married for all the wrong reasons. It was imitation love; a chance to get (marriage, house, family, lifestyle) what you think you should want, and denying what you eventually discovered you need. Mix in low self-esteem ('I couldn't believe a guy like that liked me!') and the pressure to please others (your parents) and you're left with the potent recipe that's destroyed countless marriages. Yours and mine Ann. You are her. I am him. The pattern is easily seen. I tell my daughter all the time that at 16, she is in the position to make decisions that can and will affect her for the rest of her life. A bad decision made 14, 16 or even 50 years ago is no less of a mistake as time passes. It has not been easy reading that I, and the others that have posted similar thoughts and positions on your position regarded as bitter, hateful, damaged people intent on taking out the anger we have for our ex's on you Ann. I read that and I cringe, because it's like living the rejection I felt with my ex-wife all over again. You hurt someone, then tell them they're pathetic for feeling pain. Natural reactions take over, meaning that when you taste something foul, your instinct is to spit it out. I spit it out here. So, we raise the axe and make the cut, while children and spouses scream in pain and horror. Is correcting the mistake now any worse than never making it to begin with? Perhaps. Unless someone invents a time machine, we can't go back and correct them. We can however, listen and take heed to those who see both sides of it. I'm not sure how you'll react and deal with the repercussions of your divorce, but I can tell you that my ex-wife is torn over hers. Even though we don't talk much, when we do she can't help but to get teary and tell me how much she misses me. Maybe she misses something else, I'm not sure. I'm not sure of anything, except that our marriage is over and I'm changed forever. Damaged? Sure. Bitter? Sometimes, but less and less as time passes by. All that's left is me, and the memory of what we once had. But, as you and others have reminded me, one sided love isn't really love at all. It's a memory, years long, that's gone forever. Wish I knew now what I didn't know then. That's the truth. Edited January 8, 2010 by Steadfast
Chingaling Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 Steadfast, your post tonight shows true compassion and empathy. I am just blown away ...
Author ann09 Posted January 8, 2010 Author Posted January 8, 2010 ...because I said I wouldn't post on this thread again. But I have to; the draw is too strong to ignore. At least one more time, and here's why. Tonight, I re-read your original post. Word for word. Carefully. Again. I again recognized so many of the patterns that existed in my marriage. The details and foundations were different; we had a whirlwind romance and married after dating for only four months, but her deep fear and regret were obvious from the start. I was older, wiser, more experienced and would take care of her. She liked it and admired me for it; I was a real 'catch' and her family told her so. Lots of passion at first (although I never 'forced' myself on her) but something wasn't right and I knew it. Just like in your marriage. I remember well all the times she sighed in resignation before kissing me. All the times she turned away in bed when I reached for her. The disappointment she expressed in me for not sharing her passions. I also remember all the things I did for her. I busted my ass for sixteen-years and so many of these things brought her so much happiness and security. I think she misses that. I cherished her and put her on a pedestal. She was a good mother and that kept her true, but when the kids got older and she 'spread her wings' in the workforce, the inevitable happened. Two flawed people, one flawed marriage. One person truly in love, the other immersed in obligation. Like your husband, I adored my wife. My 'dream girl'. My control wasn't controlling, but simply how I expressed my care and concern. Over time and because I was afraid, I brushed off and kicked dirt over her true feelings. I tried to love enough for both of us. The truth was, I was too scared to face it and she was too chicken to tell me how she really felt. Until she had sex with someone else. That sealed the deal. She left long before I knew she had and her fear turned into disdain for me. It can't be ignored that she -like you- married for all the wrong reasons. It was imitation love; a chance to get (marriage, house, family, lifestyle) what you think you should want, and denying what you eventually discovered you need. Mix in low self-esteem ('I couldn't believe a guy like that liked me!') and the pressure to please others (your parents) and you're left with the potent recipe that's destroyed countless marriages. Yours and mine Ann. You are her. I am him. The pattern is easily seen. I tell my daughter all the time that at 16, she is in the position to make decisions that can and will affect her for the rest of her life. A bad decision made 14, 16 or even 50 years ago is no less of a mistake as time passes. It has not been easy reading that I, and the others that have posted similar thoughts and positions on your position regarded as bitter, hateful, damaged people intent on taking out the anger we have for our ex's on you Ann. I read that and I cringe, because it's like living the rejection I felt with my ex-wife all over again. You hurt someone, then tell them they're pathetic for feeling pain. Natural reactions take over, meaning that when you taste something foul, your instinct is to spit it out. I spit it out here. So, we raise the axe and make the cut, while children and spouses scream in pain and horror. Is correcting the mistake now any worse than never making it to begin with? Perhaps. Unless someone invents a time machine, we can't go back and correct them. We can however, listen and take heed to those who see both sides of it. I'm not sure how you'll react and deal with the repercussions of your divorce, but I can tell you that my ex-wife is torn over hers. Even though we don't talk much, when we do she can't help but to get teary and tell me how much she misses me. Maybe she misses something else, I'm not sure. I'm not sure of anything, except that our marriage is over and I'm changed forever. Damaged? Sure. Bitter? Sometimes, but less and less as time passes by. All that's left is me, and the memory of what we once had. But, as you and others have reminded me, one sided love isn't really love at all. It's a memory, years long, that's gone forever. Wish I knew now what I didn't know then. That's the truth. Wow - I too am blown away. Thank you for sharing such personal emotions.
floridapad Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 Steadfast - Great post but I can't help to beleive that people marry each other because they do love each other for whatever reasons that might be at the time. As married couples grow it is up to each spouse to be attentive and committed to the other persons "love language" and if this does not happen then poof, all of the sudden it is gone. Does this mean you or your exW married for the wrong reasons to begin with and NOW each person is a little more wiser and will not make the same mistakes again? Sorry but I disagree. Your wife married you because she loved you but as men we tend to become the providers and women become the mothers and we both forget to be the "lovers". We are no wiser because we are older or feel that we have learned from the experience. If this were the case divorce rates of secondary marriages would be much much lower than primary ones, yet just the opposite is true, they are much higher. Third marriages have even higher divorce rates than second ones. How can this be now if we are older and wiser and will marry for the "right" reasons this time. What does this mean? IMHO, we married for the right reasons at the time but perhaps we didn't (and based on the statistics of second marriages ) still don't know how to maintain a loving relationship. That "in love" feeling (first two years) that Anne wishes to have or felt she never had with the H is a fraction of what sustains long term relationships. As the "high" of falling in love or being in love wears off (chemcial withdrawal essentially) and you see the person has warts and gets angry etc etc. the "in love" feeling subsides and you fret that you are no longer "in love". It is up to each spouse to endure the inevitable disenchantment phase, and try to overcome this phase to reach the ultimate sense of happiness and peace. "Mature" love. True unconditional love from the heart and not from the chemicals in the head. A true choice to acceptance all the flaws (except abuse or other severe things) found in the disenchantment phase. This is a cycle that plays out over and over and over. This is why I stressed so much to Anne to try to look inside herself and educate herself through reading books (five love languages, his needs her needs etc.) just to get a different perspective of love, relationships and happiness. For me there is no love and joy greater than that of shared children, family husband and wife in a loving caring primary relationship. This "icing" on the cake of shared children adds so much to a persons happiness that is difficult to get with "step" mothers/fathers etc. Unfortunately it is shared children, life, work, keeping up with the "Jones" that can help dove tail a marriage as well.
FeelingLonely98 Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 Steadfast and FloridaPad - Great point / counterpoint posts. Good stuff on both sides. I look forward to you two continuing this discussion. (I lean more towards Steadfast FWIW) Steadfast - GREAT - I was also blown away - not so much because of the emotion and the well written manner of the post - but because it feels like you were writing about ME. We were also 16 years together. You and your W, Ann and her H, me and my STBXW --> all the same. All of these comments could have been written by me: - One person truly in love - Lots of passion at first but something wasn't right and I knew it. - I adored my wife. My 'dream girl' - I cherished her and put her on a pedestal - I remember well all the times she sighed in resignation before kissing me. - The disappointment she expressed in me for not sharing her passions. - she married for all the wrong reasons... imitation love; a chance to get (marriage, house, family, lifestyle) what you think you should want, and denying what you eventually discovered you need. - low self-esteem and the pressure to please others Wow. Anyway, I didn't SEE all of that while in the M but I see them now. What could I have done to "fix" them? Prevent the D? Probably nothing. I think it was inevitable and surprising that we lasted 16 years. That's why I sort of chnaged my stance with Ann lately. I think this is probably what she's wanted for a long time. We are all flawed and Ann (and your w and my STBXW) is no different. God has yet to make a perfect child. PEACE!
giotto Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 (edited) I knew my wife was a complicated person and had a few issues when we married, but we seemed to be made for each other and I never thought that our marriage could go wrong... I loved her dearly... she was the perfect woman for me. We dated for 5 years and then we got married... she wanted children and I went along with it... I wasn't quite sure at the beginning, but it was ok. First child and everything's fine... second child 3 years later and things started to go wrong... she seemed distant, sex dwindled, she started taking AD, hated her job, she told me I "wasn't man enough for her"... I ignored that and just carried on as normal, but sex became a huge issue. She wasn't the same woman I married, she rejected me and I crumbled... you see, I should have left then, 14 years ago, but I didn't know the truth and it hurts to know that I made a big mistake. But I still believed in our relationship... Ann, please go and let this man regain his dignity and his life. My wife should have left me 14 years ago. She wasn't happy. She nerver told me. But she didn't leave me and she deprived me of a new life, maybe a happy life, maybe with a woman who really loved me. Now I'm a mess. I don't know what love is anymore. I resent my wife and I resent myself. Do yourself a favour. Go. Edited January 8, 2010 by giotto
floridapad Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 FL98 Why do you think the D was inevitable after 16 years and surprsing that you lasted that long? Do you feel it was a one sided love only on your part. What wasn't right in the beginning? Why would you say that? Are you rewriting your marriage? Just curious! It is up to BOTH spouses to have realistic expectations of relationships and love and understand all the phases of long term relationships and communicate. Could you have "fixed" the relationship. No, not if she did not share with you her concerns of not feeling loved, or shared her dreams etc or more likely not if she maintained an "image" of love just like we all do and she stuck to the image (fairytale love) despite the fact that this "image" is simply not sustainable (in most cases) and a new image must form to maintain happiness. If people do not manage their "images" they will be stuck with the ones that movies and tv shows put out for us or worse the ones that are created by feelings found only in affairs. Then this unwavering desire to have that "image" can result in long term misery as the cycle of long term relationships hit the disenchantment phase and POW "I love you but I'm not in love with you", divorce then off to a second long term relationship only to reach the inevitable disenchantment phase again. Then what? Love changes it morphs it gets buried it can be unearthed again but not if the "image" of love is the first two years, not if you say it can't and not if BOTH parties aren't willing to rediscover each other, committ to the marriage and grow together again. This obviously takes time and a true choice. It does happen but it does take a true "choice" to grow together again and stay committed and manage those images and desires. Just my opinion.
giotto Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 Love changes it morphs it gets buried it can be unearthed again but not if the "image" of love is the first two years, not if you say it can't and not if BOTH parties aren't willing to rediscover each other, committ to the marriage and grow together again. This obviously takes time and a true choice. It does happen but it does take a true "choice" to grow together again and stay committed and manage those images and desires. Just my opinion. Personally, I would be too scared to be hurt again... not a good starting point. I would never be able to do it...
2.50 a gallon Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 Ann I am so glad you returned. I am especially impressed that you have broken it off with the OM also. Now you can find out who you really are. Love for now is not as important as finding out what makes Ann tick, can Ann stand on her own two feet, can Ann find her way through life to her own happiness, then perhaps you can find love again. fp is correct love ebbs and flows, some times strong, some times receding, and sometimes changing, the problem is that most lovers don't realize this. They think the seed as been planted and over night it blooms into a beautiful flower that floats miles above the ground, but with time it matures and returns to earth, it can be at this point that the love goes bad as one of the partners wants it to remain above the clouds. My GF loves doing my laundry and I in turn love doing most of the cooking and doing the dishes. It is part of the life we share. Yes dull and boring, but the other night we got all dressed up, her hair usually seen in a work bun, or a simple pony tail was combed out and gently flowed down over her shoulders. And it reminded me how truly beautiful she really is, and how lucky I am that this woman shares her love with me, and the reason I do the dull boring dishes every night. And how lucky I am that she calls me "Babe"
floridapad Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 Giotto, Sometimes in love you need to take risks. Do you think you will NEVER be hurt again by a long term partner? It's one of those things that takes time to unearth again. Time to let the walls down and trust. I for one would rather go through this process with the mother of my children than with someone new that I would barely know. If a person changes and truly recommitts themself to the marriage and understanding themselves then second chance primary marriages can be very fulfilling and can be quite happier than before. There was a womans day article about the womens movement and following your heart if your unhappy and leaving a marriage. They used to support the womans point of view to leave. After some time they interviewed divorced women, some who remarried and some who didn't and asked them if they were happier and the results of the study had the majority saying NO. It was so overwhelming that they came out with an editorial and changed their view to try and do everything (within reason of course) to make the primary marriage work and explore the relationship at deeper newer levels. Of course if the other partner isn't willing then that is a different story.
FeelingLonely98 Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 FL98 Why do you think the D was inevitable after 16 years and surprsing that you lasted that long? Do you feel it was a one sided love only on your part. What wasn't right in the beginning? Why would you say that? Are you rewriting your marriage? Just curious! Just too many signs that were very much pointed to this happening. I guess I was blind to this inevitability? Almost all of the signs that Steadfast mentioned in his post were visible in mine - but not until now that I've stepped away. I don't think she was ever going to change. And would I want someone who could not really love just because I loved her? Just because I was happy. Even things from years ago ... I see them now. When someone almost NEVER says ILY, but all you ever hear is ILY too - Hmm, well,...? I think she was in love with the marriage and what it provided her - not ME... I'll tell you more in person next week when we grab a drink, ok?
HeavenOrHell Posted January 8, 2010 Posted January 8, 2010 I think she is very sad, if she wasn't, if she didn't care, she would have walked a long time ago. Why do you say she does not mean it? ok i am not saying that op should stay in such a difficult condition in fact the best thiing for her will be to part ways asap , what I mean is that she should not keep telling her husband how sad she is for leaving him , because she does not mean it. best of luck
karnak Posted February 15, 2010 Posted February 15, 2010 ...because I said I wouldn't post on this thread again. But I have to; the draw is too strong to ignore. At least one more time, and here's why. Tonight, I re-read your original post. Word for word. Carefully. Again. I again recognized so many of the patterns that existed in my marriage. The details and foundations were different; we had a whirlwind romance and married after dating for only four months, but her deep fear and regret were obvious from the start. I was older, wiser, more experienced and would take care of her. She liked it and admired me for it; I was a real 'catch' and her family told her so. Lots of passion at first (although I never 'forced' myself on her) but something wasn't right and I knew it. Just like in your marriage. I remember well all the times she sighed in resignation before kissing me. All the times she turned away in bed when I reached for her. The disappointment she expressed in me for not sharing her passions. I also remember all the things I did for her. I busted my ass for sixteen-years and so many of these things brought her so much happiness and security. I think she misses that. I cherished her and put her on a pedestal. She was a good mother and that kept her true, but when the kids got older and she 'spread her wings' in the workforce, the inevitable happened. Two flawed people, one flawed marriage. One person truly in love, the other immersed in obligation. Like your husband, I adored my wife. My 'dream girl'. My control wasn't controlling, but simply how I expressed my care and concern. Over time and because I was afraid, I brushed off and kicked dirt over her true feelings. I tried to love enough for both of us. The truth was, I was too scared to face it and she was too chicken to tell me how she really felt. Until she had sex with someone else. That sealed the deal. She left long before I knew she had and her fear turned into disdain for me. It can't be ignored that she -like you- married for all the wrong reasons. It was imitation love; a chance to get (marriage, house, family, lifestyle) what you think you should want, and denying what you eventually discovered you need. Mix in low self-esteem ('I couldn't believe a guy like that liked me!') and the pressure to please others (your parents) and you're left with the potent recipe that's destroyed countless marriages. Yours and mine Ann. You are her. I am him. The pattern is easily seen. I tell my daughter all the time that at 16, she is in the position to make decisions that can and will affect her for the rest of her life. A bad decision made 14, 16 or even 50 years ago is no less of a mistake as time passes. It has not been easy reading that I, and the others that have posted similar thoughts and positions on your position regarded as bitter, hateful, damaged people intent on taking out the anger we have for our ex's on you Ann. I read that and I cringe, because it's like living the rejection I felt with my ex-wife all over again. You hurt someone, then tell them they're pathetic for feeling pain. Natural reactions take over, meaning that when you taste something foul, your instinct is to spit it out. I spit it out here. So, we raise the axe and make the cut, while children and spouses scream in pain and horror. Is correcting the mistake now any worse than never making it to begin with? Perhaps. Unless someone invents a time machine, we can't go back and correct them. We can however, listen and take heed to those who see both sides of it. I'm not sure how you'll react and deal with the repercussions of your divorce, but I can tell you that my ex-wife is torn over hers. Even though we don't talk much, when we do she can't help but to get teary and tell me how much she misses me. Maybe she misses something else, I'm not sure. I'm not sure of anything, except that our marriage is over and I'm changed forever. Damaged? Sure. Bitter? Sometimes, but less and less as time passes by. All that's left is me, and the memory of what we once had. But, as you and others have reminded me, one sided love isn't really love at all. It's a memory, years long, that's gone forever. Wish I knew now what I didn't know then. That's the truth. A wonderful and very heart-felt post STEADFAST. You really deserve to live a fulfilling and happy life. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.
karnak Posted February 18, 2010 Posted February 18, 2010 We are no wiser because we are older or feel that we have learned from the experience. If this were the case divorce rates of secondary marriages would be much much lower than primary ones, yet just the opposite is true, they are much higher. Third marriages have even higher divorce rates than second ones. How can this be now if we are older and wiser and will marry for the "right" reasons this time. ... What does this mean? IMHO, we married for the right reasons at the time but perhaps we didn't (and based on the statistics of second marriages ) still don't know how to maintain a loving relationship. ... For me there is no love and joy greater than that of shared children, family husband and wife in a loving caring primary relationship. This "icing" on the cake of shared children adds so much to a persons happiness that is difficult to get with "step" mothers/fathers etc. Unfortunately it is shared children, life, work, keeping up with the "Jones" that can help dove tail a marriage as well. Perhaps many people remarry still traumatised with their experiences from previous relationships. They try to "destroy/bury" their feelings for their old partners by entering a new relationship. They later discover that their feelings haven't disappeared and find they're now attached to someone they don't really love. Hence they divorce (for a second or a third time). An aunt of a friend of a mine married a second time after her first husband died. Despite her second marriage, she never ceases talking about her dead husband, much to the embarassment of her actual one. In fact, her own family have tried to made her see that that's not decent of her, but still she talks of her first husband almost as if her second wasn't really there. I've tried to bury the feelings for my ex by entering new relationships. Despite all my efforts, I feel bad with myself because I can't ger her out of my mind. And it feels like I'm cheating on the new women. As for your last comment, many women really don't give a crap about family life or raising kids. They just marry and have kids because they're interested in social stability and financial security. As soon as real passion (or lust) enters their lives, they kick all their carefully-planned life out the door and embark on a new adventure.
Steadfast Posted February 21, 2010 Posted February 21, 2010 As for your last comment, many women really don't give a crap about family life or raising kids. They just marry and have kids because they're interested in social stability and financial security. As soon as real passion (or lust) enters their lives, they kick all their carefully-planned life out the door and embark on a new adventure. This is a devastating statement. I've been trying to digest it for days. The biggest reason is because it's true. The level of cruelty that comes from selfishness is sobering. It causes one to truly doubt the institution of marriage. Slowly, over time the desire leaves, taking a spouse with it. Not trying to be PC, but this occurrence is not strictly limited to women. But, I'd wager the scales of hardheartedness would tip towards women, who more often than not make decisions based on emotion and feel. The male is more likely to be a selfishly dumb cake eater/momma' boy.
Author ann09 Posted February 22, 2010 Author Posted February 22, 2010 ^^ Maybe that's true for some people. But I do give a crap about family life and raising my kids. Back 15 yrs ago I thought he was the man for me. We had 3 beautiful children that are my life. I truly live for them. It crushes my soul that I am not in love with their father. I wanted this to work in the worst way. We are still married and going through the beginning stages of ending things. It's killing both of us. Somedays I think maybe I will just stay for the kids sake and make it work. But I see myself in 10-20 yrs and know I will be even more miserable. And when I am miserable, I'm not the mother I know I can be. Not all women that end their marriage are the devil. Not all of us want to be free and single and living a different kind of life. Not all of us enjoy crushing our spouses heart. Not all of us enjoy looking at our kids and telling them that mommy and daddy are going to separate. it's truly the worst thing I have ever had to go through. And I am not acting on impulse - this is probably something I should have done years ago.
FeelingLonely98 Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 ^^ Maybe that's true for some people. But I do give a crap about family life and raising my kids. Back 15 yrs ago I thought he was the man for me. We had 3 beautiful children that are my life. I truly live for them. It crushes my soul that I am not in love with their father. I wanted this to work in the worst way. We are still married and going through the beginning stages of ending things. It's killing both of us. Somedays I think maybe I will just stay for the kids sake and make it work. But I see myself in 10-20 yrs and know I will be even more miserable. And when I am miserable, I'm not the mother I know I can be. Not all women that end their marriage are the devil. Not all of us want to be free and single and living a different kind of life. Not all of us enjoy crushing our spouses heart. Not all of us enjoy looking at our kids and telling them that mommy and daddy are going to separate. it's truly the worst thing I have ever had to go through. And I am not acting on impulse - this is probably something I should have done years ago. What are the "stages" that you two are currently in?
Steadfast Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 Not all of us enjoy crushing our spouses heart. Not all of us enjoy looking at our kids and telling them that mommy and daddy are going to separate... Yeah, but you're doing it anyway Ann. Stop rationalizing it. This is for you. To be a better mom, a better person...for 'happiness'...ad nauseum... What you and so many others are doing comes at the emotional expense of your husband, your kids, everyone. Don't rationalize that it's for everyone's eventual happiness. People need to stop BS'ing themselves and others and just admit they are selfish. What I want now, what I *might* want later. Read the story about the farmer who saved his crops for the future in the Book of Luke Ann. That man was regarded as a fool. The moral is live for TODAY. Do what's right NOW. Tomorrow is not promised. Of course you hurt Ann. You've been hurting for awhile. The thing I don't understand is how can people keep making the same mistake and expect a different outcome? Also, isn't is ironic that you can offer devoted, unconditional love to your children but mentally and emotionally crucify the man that fathered them? Society seems to accept this. I don't understand it. Kids grow and leave but the spouse remains to love and care for the other, then offer love and support for the grandchildren. Why can't you stop loving your kids? Perhaps feel you'd be happier with someone else's kids? Better kids? Children who will complete you and give you a greater level of happiness both now and in the future? Sound crazy? What's the difference?
Author ann09 Posted February 22, 2010 Author Posted February 22, 2010 Big difference. My kids are my flesh and blood. Theyre a part of me. They lived in me for 9 months and I gave birth to them. I would lay down and die for them if I had to. Sorry - I see what you're saying - but theres an enormous difference. I wanted to love their father as much as I love them. I have tried so very hard to. And I DO love him - but I haev zero attraction to him - zero interest. I HAVE TRIED! It breaks my heart because he is so tortured by this. And to do this to someone I DO love kills me. But if I stay with him, I live without true happiness. Hard for someone to understand who hasn't been in my shoes. And I wouldn't wish my worst enemy to be in my shoes right now.
Steadfast Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 No, I'm sorry Ann. Sorry that you used the old 'been in my shoes' line. Tell you what, why don't you consider what it's like to be in their shoes. When you victimize, you sentence yourself. People just don't accept or believe that when you become a parent, your "rights" stop where theirs start. But, no. Not this day and age. We're above that and that isn't acceptable. Me first. Speaking of kids, here's what they are hearing and learning; "Kids, it isn't right to lie, cheat, break your promises or vows unless you really-really-really have to! Then, do what's best for you. No matter who it hurts." The worst is when people tell you it'll be OK. But it won't be. Liars support lies because they have to. To do otherwise means facing a truth they are not capable of facing. They'll say 'hugs' to you. God bless! Stay 'strong'. The logic and rationalization is maddening. People just won't grow up.
giotto Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 (edited) No, I'm sorry Ann. Sorry that you used the old 'been in my shoes' line. Tell you what, why don't you consider what it's like to be in their shoes. When you victimize, you sentence yourself. People just don't accept or believe that when you become a parent, your "rights" stop where theirs start. But, no. Not this day and age. We're above that and that isn't acceptable. Me first. Speaking of kids, here's what they are hearing and learning; "Kids, it isn't right to lie, cheat, break your promises or vows unless you really-really-really have to! Then, do what's best for you. No matter who it hurts." The worst is when people tell you it'll be OK. But it won't be. Liars support lies because they have to. To do otherwise means facing a truth they are not capable of facing. They'll say 'hugs' to you. God bless! Stay 'strong'. The logic and rationalization is maddening. People just won't grow up. I'm afraid this is a very old fashion view of marriage. We are not monoliths. Our feelings change and I would hate it to have to go back to medieval times... like the ones you are suggesting... Ann's being real. Put yourself in her husband's shoes... why is he still hanging on? Yes, there are feelings and these will never be erased, but I wouldn't stay in the marriage if my wife said: I do love you, but not that way anymore... I'll stay because I have to (I made some vows before the war), and I do care about you, but forget about the sex... Marriage is not slavery. Women are not slaves. Women have their own feelings. She doesn't owe anything to her husband. They married and they can be unmarried. It's 2010, you know? And this comes from a man who's in Ann's husband's position... Edited February 22, 2010 by giotto
Steadfast Posted February 22, 2010 Posted February 22, 2010 Marriage is not slavery. Women are not slaves. Women have their own feelings. She doesn't owe anything to her husband. They married and they can be unmarried. It's 2010, you know? This is a huge cop out. Do your feelings about 'modern' morality extend to issues regarding abuse, hostility, aggression, theft or any number of wrongful acts that are still regarded as 'untouchable'? My guess is no...especially if you were directly involved. The truth is, right and wrong are principles not bordered by time and circumstance. To think otherwise is foolish, but fitting in this age of subjectivity. Still, I'm not without understanding of current views, nor do I think posting a few words on a internet discussion board is going to change much. That however, does not keep reality from existing, for we are all subject to the same universal laws and conditions. Tell me, before becoming 'educated' do infants or small children act any differently than they did 50-100-200 or even 1000 years ago? Why is that? Grow up sir, and save your modernistic garbage for someone who doesn't know any better.
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