DanielMadr Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 It's not some binary decision between "equality" and "hero worship." I think a couple can be equal in some ways and traditional, in others. We are talking sexually attractive way - love way. And it works only one way - man can look down on woman and still love her, woman can only look up to a guy to love him. Not taking in account deviant behaviour. What is the source of admiration is anoter question. I know from experience that a guy can have worse paid job and he can be less educated but he has to compensate in typical masculine areas - at least when drama comes he takes the rudder etc. So they can be equal or even less in areas which are new and artificial to humankind as business, education etc. but he has to be dominant in traditional ways - bed... My personal problem with career women is....Id love to stay at home with kids, I really do but I know they need mother more...its just the way it is. Therefore I wouldnt go for a career woman. On top of that I dont understand why would someone especially mother could choose carrer over children - it just makes me think of her as heartless or stupid.
Isolde Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Many women can and do make adjustments to their career to spend more time with their children, such as working part time or from home.
A O Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 So I guess the guys who are intimidated by a smart, successful women are those guys who want to be worshipped rather than being equals, or those guys who feel emasculated if a woman is more successful than they are. It appears that your guy wasn't anywhere near as smart as he thought he was. I imagine that he's intimated often, by both sexes. It works both ways, because if a guy isn't at least my equal I see him as not very manly and therefore unattractive. Now one can see why some men feel intimated if this is how some women feel. Houston, we have a problem.... .
Boundary Problem Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) Many so-called "successful women" are bossy, arrogant b*tches. A generalization, I know I agree. I think it is the "bitchy emotional suit" that women put on for the business world. I know many successful women who would drop the "bitchy emotional suit" in a minute if they were independently wealthy. And their nurturing hobbies (one friend is involved extensively with the SPCA and another in needlepoint) would become their primary focus. So for some women, the bitchy exterior is a mask. For others, they just are the way they are (pitbull with lipstick). Edited November 8, 2009 by Boundary Problem
DanielMadr Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Many women can and do make adjustments to their career to spend more time with their children, such as working part time or from home. Of course they do. Most of women do that. I believe woman should stay at home till 6 years of age of her child. Some serious psychological illnesses like schizophrenia can develop if child is exposed to some bad influences at that time. It is crucial to 4y of age and continues up to 6. From 4 to 6 a father could take it though. I just hope time comes when most of us will work from our home and it will be like old times.....family together all day.
Skump Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) Huh, well, I can say in all honesty that I'd rather my wife be significantly smarter than significantly dumber than me, all else being equal. I'm far more worried about being bored than over-awed by my wife. I guess high intelligence might be a turn-off to some really dumb or really insecure guys. For most of us, however, the issue is how the the girl uses her gifts. Some people are intellectual bullies. They use their intellectual advantages to make others feel small. That's very unattractive. The bottom line is that nobody likes a jerk, regardless of gender. Arrogance just wears a little worse on a girl. Edited November 8, 2009 by Skump
sedgwick Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) First they are not emasculating they are just not attractive. Second we are speaking about career in jobs other than creative or scientific - you dont need manly traits there to succeed. HA ha ha ha ha ha...oh sheesh. This is just silly!! Have you ever been a female scientist? Because I can certainly get my microbiologist friend's opinion on whether she ever has to compete with men for research grants. While we're at it, I can get my musician friend's opinion on what it takes to get guys to let you play bass in their rockabilly band. And if you'd like to hear a few stories of my and other female writers' work being dismissed by male editors and reviewers, just let me know. Oh, and the microbiologist is also a stunning bellydancer. I can ask some guys if they find her attractive or not! I'm sure when they're watching her undulate they're thinking how sexy she'd be if she weren't a microbiologist! I'm really wondering what planet all this madness comes from. Until you've had a vagina and tried to get a job, you really don't know what you're talking about!!! Some serious psychological illnesses like schizophrenia can develop if child is exposed to some bad influences at that time. It is crucial to 4y of age and continues up to 6. From 4 to 6 a father could take it though. Schizophrenia is a biological illness. If you're going to have it, you're going to have it. I recommend the book "Surviving Schizophrenia" by E. Fuller Torrey if you'd like an accurate picture of the brain science behind the illness. Edited November 8, 2009 by sedgwick
Sam Spade Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 HA ha ha ha ha ha...oh sheesh. This is just silly!! Have you ever been a female scientist? Because I can certainly get my microbiologist friend's opinion on whether she ever has to compete with men for research grants. While we're at it, I can get my musician friend's opinion on what it takes to get guys to let you play bass in their rockabilly band. And if you'd like to hear a few stories of my and other female writers' work being dismissed by male editors and reviewers, just let me know. Oh, and the microbiologist is also a stunning bellydancer. I can ask some guys if they find her attractive or not! I'm sure when they're watching her undulate they're thinking how sexy she'd be if she weren't a microbiologist! I'm really wondering what planet all this madness comes from. Until you've had a vagina and tried to get a job, you really don't know what you're talking about!!! . Oh, no, with the gender inequality again. Let me remind everybody that discrimination on the basis of sex has been illegal for half an effin century (and sued as such in the occasions it does occur)! The reverse discrimination is not a problem, apparently. My department is interviewing women candidates that are less qualified than the male applications we recieved, just because they are worried that the professional association in the field will be on our azz for not paying enough attention to "diversity". The "the boys won't let me play because I'm a woman" shpiel is the most irritating of all, and one of the reasons 'career women' get a bad rap. Well, the boys don't care if you have a vagina or not, as long as you simply do your darn job and don't make a big deal out of it - like the rest of us.
Left in a Lurch Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 I am a successful woman; i mean woman....all woman! I am not a man in a womens body guys Now, when I am not at work I prefer a man to take charge..I am not out for money and dont care how much a man makes...our careers do not define ourselves....I jst want a man to like me for who I am, which I find that they all find me intimidating....so I guess its a no win on my part! Or maybe jst have not found the right man to believe that I am honest, faithful, and not controlling or demeaning at all. Why do you think they are intimidated by you being pretty and successful in your career? I would expect that your personality is what is intimidating. You probably present an over-the-top challenge for them personality-wise and that is only fun for about a day before it gets to be too much work and not enough fun.
sedgwick Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) Oh, no, with the gender inequality again. Let me remind everybody that discrimination on the basis of sex has been illegal for half an effin century (and sued as such in the occasions it does occur)! Do you get it that this is exactly like a white person saying black people don't really face discrimination, and that if they do they can just sue? Like now that you've let 'em ride the bus, they've got nothing to complain about? And I have to say the phrase "career women" is cracking me up. It's so 40-years-ago. Why don't we talk about consciousness-raising and women's lib while we're at it? Maybe we could have a rap session! Hold on a minute while I go change into my Mary Tyler Moore costume. Edited November 8, 2009 by sedgwick
Johnny M Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 HA ha ha ha ha ha...oh sheesh. This is just silly!! Have you ever been a female scientist? Because I can certainly get my microbiologist friend's opinion on whether she ever has to compete with men for research grants. While we're at it, I can get my musician friend's opinion on what it takes to get guys to let you play bass in their rockabilly band. And if you'd like to hear a few stories of my and other female writers' work being dismissed by male editors and reviewers, just let me know. Oh, and the microbiologist is also a stunning bellydancer. I can ask some guys if they find her attractive or not! I'm sure when they're watching her undulate they're thinking how sexy she'd be if she weren't a microbiologist! I'm really wondering what planet all this madness comes from. Until you've had a vagina and tried to get a job, you really don't know what you're talking about!!! Do you get it that this is exactly like a white person saying black people don't really face discrimination, and that if they do they can just sue? Like now that you've let 'em ride the bus, they've got nothing to complain about? And I have to say the phrase "career women" is cracking me up. It's so 40-years-ago. Why don't we talk about consciousness-raising and women's lib while we're at it? Maybe we could have a rap session! Hold on a minute while I go change into my Mary Tyler Moore costume. And you wonder why men are not attracted to women like you. Who wants to deal with this sort of estrogen overload on a daily basis?
sedgwick Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) And you wonder why men are not attracted to women like you. Who wants to deal with this sort of estrogen overload on a daily basis? Oh please. This is so silly! I can guarantee you I'm not in the position of wondering why men "aren't attracted to women like [me]," though I do appreciate your vain attempt at fitting me (erroneously) into your worldview. I'm sorry you're threatened by the idea of all humans being equal, and THRILLED I don't know any guys who refer to a passionate, vibrant, opinionated woman as being on "estrogen overload." Wouldn't have the slightest interest in them, I'd rather be single and passionate about what I do -- it's way more fun than letting another person (of any gender) bring you down. Now I'm off to bellydance -- y'know, for a bunch of men who aren't attracted to me! Heh! Edited November 8, 2009 by sedgwick
Johnny M Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Oh please. This is so silly! I can guarantee you I'm not in the position of wondering why men "aren't attracted to women like [me]," though I do appreciate your vain attempt at fitting me (erroneously) into your worldview. Oh really? Didn't you say in another thread that you haven't been on a date in two years? I'd say that's a pretty good indication of the fact that men aren't too thrilled about you. I'm sorry you're threatened by the idea of all humans being equal, and THRILLED I don't know any guys who refer to a passionate, vibrant, opinionated woman as being on "estrogen overload." Well, you are certainly opinionated, I'll give you that. As for "passionate" and "vibrant", I guess those words can mean a number of different things....Just keep in mind that people rarely say what they think about you straight to your face, especially if their thoughts are not particularly flattering. Wouldn't have the slightest interest in them, I'd rather be single and passionate about what I do -- it's way more fun than letting another person (of any gender) bring you down. Now I'm off to bellydance -- y'know, for a bunch of men who aren't attracted to me! Heh! Well, good luck with the single life.
sedgwick Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Johnny, I refuse to engage your negativity and insults any longer! Peace to you!
Johnny M Posted November 8, 2009 Posted November 8, 2009 Johnny, I refuse to engage your negativity and insults any longer! Peace to you! I'm not trying to insult you, sedgwick. I'm just being totally honest in the way most people wouldn't be in a face to face conversation. There are few things that make a woman less attractive than the "I am a woman, hear me roar" kind of attitude. Few sane men would be willing to put up with constant whining about glass ceilings, the 'old boys network', and other things that feminists enjoy ranting about.
Sam Spade Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 Do you get it that this is exactly like a white person saying black people don't really face discrimination, and that if they do they can just sue? Like now that you've let 'em ride the bus, they've got nothing to complain about? And I have to say the phrase "career women" is cracking me up. It's so 40-years-ago. Why don't we talk about consciousness-raising and women's lib while we're at it? Maybe we could have a rap session! Hold on a minute while I go change into my Mary Tyler Moore costume. I do get it, but the solution to the problem, if there is one, certainly isn't to promote under qualified people because of their skin color or gender (or as is typically the case - settle for the good enough candidate instead of the best one, because we need a diversity hire). The phrase career women cracks me up as well. It is typically brought by women who consider themselves career women and expect special treatment (on the job, and of), simply for doing what they are supposed to do. As far as I am concerned, everybody has work and relationship responsibilities and should pay enough attention to both.
Sam Spade Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 I'm not trying to insult you, sedgwick. I'm just being totally honest in the way most people wouldn't be in a face to face conversation. There are few things that make a woman less attractive than the "I am a woman, hear me roar" kind of attitude. Few sane men would be willing to put up with constant whining about glass ceilings, the 'old boys network', and other things that feminists enjoy ranting about. Very true.
Isolde Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) The phrase career women cracks me up as well. It is typically brought by women who consider themselves career women and expect special treatment (on the job, and of), simply for doing what they are supposed to do. As far as I am concerned, everybody has work and relationship responsibilities and should pay enough attention to both. Entitlement complexes occur with both genders. Further, you're contradicting yourself when you say that women have work responsibilities. If you want them to work, the only difference between that and being what you call a career woman, is one of attitude towards work life balance. Further, there are several careerists (men and women) in my family, and what I saw in them was ambition and interest in their work, not self entitlement. I don't want to be a careerist myself, but I understand that every careerist has their own motivations. Edited November 9, 2009 by Isolde
Sam Spade Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) Entitlement complexes occur with both genders. Further, you're contradicting yourself when you say that women have work responsibilities. If you want them to work, the only difference between that and being what you call a career woman, is one of attitude towards work life balance. Further, there are several careerists (men and women) in my family, and what I saw in them was ambition and interest in their work, not self entitlement. I don't want to be a careerist myself, but I understand that every careerist has their own motivations. Precisely, except it is not just an attitude towards work-life balance, but an attitude towards life and men in general. And this is not some mysoginistic mumbo-jumbo, this is an observation based on actual female colleagues of mine (all mediocre scholars, by the way). Yet if you listen to them, they deserve medals just for (barely) doing their job. The whole discussion of women and careers ticks me off simply because no sane man would dismiss a competent woman just because she's a woman. Yet that's precisely the implicit accusation you can find any discussion of how hard career women have it and how guys should help instead of being "intimidated" . here's a good story from a family friend - a woman I know, who grew up in the still mysoginistic 60s. Her father owned an auto parts and repair shop, and as a teenager, she'd often tend the shop while her father is away. A typical scenario would be a new client walking into the store and wanting to talk to "the boss". She'd patiently explain (sometimes way more than once) that the boss is not around, but they can talk to her about their issue - a suggestion typically met with a chuckle and/or disbelief. But having no choice, they'd end up having to explain what their problem was, to typically see it competently solved. That's all it took for these hardcore blue collar guys to instantly respect her and on subsequent visits to the store treat her like one of the guys and appreciate her help. This lady tells this story over and over again, precisely because she herself is pissed off by the never ending stories of glass ceilings and all that crap. Edited November 9, 2009 by Sam Spade
Isolde Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 I'm just questioning the validity of using anecdotal evidence to form a blanket generalization towards an entire category of women. The quietly confident career women, are honestly too immersed in their work, to blather on about feminism. I can well believe, that the mediocre ones, may be more likely to come up with excuses, but then, men come up with excuses, as well. It's fine if you don't want to date a career woman, but you're not presenting a really convincing reason for the preference. *shrugs*
Gypsy_Soul Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 This pretty much nails it. Many so-called "successful women" are bossy, arrogant b*tches. A generalization, I know, and I'm sure there are successful women who do not fit into this mold. Nonetheless, it seems to be true of many career women. The part about such women displaying a lot of men-like qualities is also very true (you can't succeed in the business world without having such qualities). So in otherwords, do you mean the men-like qualities consists of being bossy, arrogant bitches? If that's the case then sounds about right for a man. I'm not really serious you know.
Isolde Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) It's fine if you don't want to date a career woman, but you're not presenting a really convincing reason for the preference. *shrugs* I might add that if I have a preference for tall men, I don't really need a reason for doing so, but not liking career women is different, because a "career woman" isn't one specific quality that can be measured, but something that's subjective, from person to person. Still, realizing that we all have different wants in a relationship, I respectfully withdraw what I said above. Edited November 9, 2009 by Isolde
Johnny M Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 So in otherwords, do you mean the men-like qualities consists of being bossy, arrogant bitches? If that's the case then sounds about right for a man. I'm not really serious you know. Yes, the typical alpha male is bossy and arrogant. These qualities are also known as 'leadership' and 'confidence'.
Sam Spade Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 I'm just questioning the validity of using anecdotal evidence to form a blanket generalization towards an entire category of women. The quietly confident career women, are honestly too immersed in their work, to blather on about feminism. I can well believe, that the mediocre ones, may be more likely to come up with excuses, but then, men come up with excuses, as well. It's fine if you don't want to date a career woman, but you're not presenting a really convincing reason for the preference. *shrugs* The reasons for being annoyed are different from the reasons for the general preference, which i've stated earlier (work hours, work-life balance, etc.). So even in the absence of poor attitudes, this type of partner isn't someone I'd be excited about as far as long term joint life plans are concerned, just because it clashes with my idea of a household. (Of course, if my plans to establish at least somewhat traditional family fail, in my 40s I'd be a lot more flexible in that regard.)
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