I'm new and in need of a place to vent...

[ann09]

Ann

 

About 3 years after the breakup of my marriage I met Miss Right. I gave up my friends with benefits and began building a relationship. And then I met her older sister. She liked the same football and baseball teams that I liked, knew more about the players than I did, she knew what to watch for in a game, watching a game with her was a joy. Arguing which play should be called next. She also liked the outdoors, hiking, fly fishing, snow mobiling and water sking. We could talk for hours, we had so much to say, she was maybe the closest that I will ever come to in having a soul mate. A lasting memory is of her sitting on the bow of the family boat, in her two piece, sun glasses on staring off into the distance, (pondering her future, possibly with me) with the wind whisping her long hair into her face. She was one of the most beautiful women that I have ever met. I could have looked in to her eyes forever.

 

She was married with two kids, and my GF's sister. And even though I was well on the way to falling in love my GF, I had to walk away. That was worse than the break up of my marriage. My GF kept calling crying wanting to know what she had done to make me walk away. It never would have worked.

 

I'm sorry you went through that. Maybe I am a dreamer - too much so. I believe in fate. I believe in soulmates. I believe that we only have one life and should take chances. I know you did the right thing. You sound like an incredible man. I just have fears of being old and having that constant feeling of "what if?"

 

Anyone here see the movie, "Bridges of Madison County"? I am that woman with her hand on the handle of the car - wanting to get out but scared to.

 

Yeah, I should stay away from romance films.

[plowman]

Ann I`m sure someday you will be old and saying "what if" and yes you should stay away from romance films they are FICTION!!

[HeavenOrHell]

I wish you all the best hun, I am sorry people are giving you are a hard time when this is clearly not an easy situation for you, I think people are bringing their religion and own circumstances into your situation too much when it needs to be looked at objectively.

Good luck

 

 

I think it's not so much they want me to be miserable - but that it's easier to choose sides with the "good guy" in all this. Hey I probably would too. What I have done is wrong on every level. I can justify it any way I want. But it's still how I feel. And I wish I could feel differently. I have never struggled and felt such angst in all my life. I truly believe everyone here wants whats best for everyone - and working me working on my marriage would be a more positive thing than just coming here and saying "I don't love my husband, and I am in love with another man".

 

But honestly, I am too saddened to think of my life still in this situation years down the road. My biggest worry is ruining my kids. I can deal with everything - but that is the one thing that keeps me up every single night.

 

Btw, thanks for your support.

[PWSX3]

Ann if you have been holding back, buried that night then that could be a LOT of the problem.

You really need to get professional help to get that figured out.

 

I had an affair on my former W 20 years ago, it took me until our divorce 20 years later & going to a good Christian counselor to figure out why I did it. I though it was because I wasn't getting what I needed from my W, but it was because of my past & something happening then that made me feel like I needed something else.

 

I do understand how you feel, it has to be hard to be in a relationship that you feel no love for, but what if both of you worked on it together to make it different??

 

Check out Henry Clouds/John Townsends web site or check out Steve Arterburn's web site. They are Christian based so I guess if you aren't a believer it might not help, but it won't hurt. Might just give you a different view of things.

 

In my Divorce Care classes there were two gals that left there marriage & even though it was what they wanted to do (both had some abuse in there marriage) they seemed to have the worse time of dealing with the divorce and that is why they were in the class.

[Texsun65]

Ann I am in the same boat as your husband, and I`m sure he doesn1t realize it now but you`re right he does deserve better than you.You may think you "gave your all" to this marriage, but you didn`t if you did you would have told him when you first started having these feelings,so maybe he could have done something about it. If he didn`t then that would be his fault.love and attraction are not the only reasons to stay married, yeah they need to be there, but after 14 yrs and 3 kids there are peaks and valleys. If you`re puking after having sex with a good man who loves you that says a lot about you. How are you gonna feel when youi`re giving the "bad boy" who couldn`t give a rats azz about your kids a bj and hes thiking about his next conquest. you are spoiled you have too much time to think about your happiness and are probably watching too much tv. God forbid you or your kids had an accident or a serious illness then all this would fade to the background, and you would see what a great man you`ve got.not like the loser I`m sure you`ll end up with, then you`ll really know what love is and what it isn`t. you`re in love with a fantasy and you`re able to do that because he has taken such good care of you. grow the f@#$ up or let this poor man get on with his grieving and get a real woman

 

 

Amen! This is an excellent response.

[Texsun65]

Tim,

I respect what you're saying. I do. And I believe in marriage - and when I said my wedding vows I meant them - and truly never saw myself here today.

But the past generations stayed in marriages even when incredibly miserable - does that make it right? And foreign women??? So American men should marry women that can barely speak their language and will be "stuck" here as their slaves??? Really?? This is how you truly feel??

I would rather be a strong woman and take control of my life than do what past generations of women did and stay unhappy, die unhappy - all for the sake of their husband's happiness. Doesn't jive with me. Sorry.

 

 

The womens lib movement has contributed greatly to the destruction of marriage and families. Men and women have their places and their roles in a marriage and the lib movement has undermined that working division of labor. Foreign women are not polluted with the notion of the ideals of the modern American women and this is why they make good spouses, not because they are trapped in a marriage.

 

Todays American women thinks they want a sensitive man that is in touch with their feelings. A metrosexual, if you will. Society has created a generation of wimpy boys and women who think they want whimpy boys, but when they get married to them they realize they are indecisive whimpy boys and they don't like it.

 

This man has sacrificed to give you all that he can and that is not enough for you and for many women. Outrage! You are polluted by the corrupt ideals of the lib movement that have convinced you that traditional marriage is eveil when in fact the opposite is true. In order to maintain your "happiness" and "Independence" you are going to destroy a family and walk out on your husband and the lib movement will cheerwhen you do, but in reality you, your husband and your children are loser for being duped into beleiving that there are not roles and responsibilies in a marriage and those are different for men and women, yet very equitable abd acceptable.

 

Shame on the baby boomers! You are destroying our country!

[nobmagnet]

my goodness texun!

 

ouch ouch and ouch again.

 

Hey im not saying what ann is doing sits well on my tummy but it is quite a statement you just made. Understandably a raw feeling you have but a sweeping genearlisation to say the least. I recon I need to see if you have written a Thread yet to see your story.

[2.50 a gallon]

texsun

 

She can't help what she is feeling, I really do pity the whole family. Her H sounds like a great guy and a great father, men like him don't grow on trees, and when the word gets out that he is available, the ladies will be knocking on his door.

Ann has lost touch with reality, she can not see that she is self destructing and is still in contact with the OM. By keeping the OM in her life she will be bringing the OM into their lives. This will kill her relationship with her children in the future. The kids will be hurt that she has hurt their loving father. In ten years the OM will be gone, and so will her kids, she is setting herself up for a lonely life.

[ann09]

texsun

 

She can't help what she is feeling, I really do pity the whole family. Her H sounds like a great guy and a great father, men like him don't grow on trees, and when the word gets out that he is available, the ladies will be knocking on his door.

Ann has lost touch with reality, she can not see that she is self destructing and is still in contact with the OM. By keeping the OM in her life she will be bringing the OM into their lives. This will kill her relationship with her children in the future. The kids will be hurt that she has hurt their loving father. In ten years the OM will be gone, and so will her kids, she is setting herself up for a lonely life.

 

 

My relationship with my children will be fine. You don't know my H to to sit there and say that he's a loving father and a great man - well - ya don't know what you're talking about with that one. I have realized the control he has had over me over the past 14 years...it's taken me a long time to figure it all out. I am the main parent in this house - he loves his kids to death - but "good father" isn't the expression I would use to describe him. Well unless you count paying for everything and buying them things to keep them happy makes you a good father. Then in that case he is. Money has bought him many things - but I've grown up and realized it's not buying me anymore.

 

Last week he said to me, "If you stay with me I will buy you a bigger house".

 

 

Um.....yeah. Ok then.

[mem11363]

Ann,

I read your post and see you and your decision in a positive light. You have said a lot of things that reflect a genuine and deep compassion for your H and the pain this is causing him. Your willingness to work 3 jobs to make your new life work shows a remarkable level of sincerity in your priorities.

 

As for smell - I love how my wife smells and she feels the same about me. In fact when I travel - sometimes she will wear one of my t-shirts to bed because it smells like me. And yes I am very clean - shower every day - still we all do have a smell.

 

I am happily married though my wife and I did everything backwards: 1. Had a child by accident 2. Got married a year after our child was born partially due to wife's catholic upbringing 3. She fell in love with me in year 3 or 4 and slowly felt more that way over time. Very lucky for us that the lust part was good from the start and then improved when the rest of the M got better.

 

You are now mature enough to find the right mix - a guy who is hot - and yet not on the edge of having his parole revoked.

 

Once I watched this episode on MASH - in it this woman had to choose between two suitors. One was fun and charming and sexy and irresponsible, the other was his polar opposite. Ultimately when the "good guy" proposed she turned him down. She said - your competitor has too much of a little boy in him for a grown man - but you have nothing child like left in you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My relationship with my children will be fine. You don't know my H to to sit there and say that he's a loving father and a great man - well - ya don't know what you're talking about with that one. I have realized the control he has had over me over the past 14 years...it's taken me a long time to figure it all out. I am the main parent in this house - he loves his kids to death - but "good father" isn't the expression I would use to describe him. Well unless you count paying for everything and buying them things to keep them happy makes you a good father. Then in that case he is. Money has bought him many things - but I've grown up and realized it's not buying me anymore.

 

Last week he said to me, "If you stay with me I will buy you a bigger house".

 

 

Um.....yeah. Ok then.

[Texsun65]

I ask you all to look throughout this website and read and review post after post, of mostly men who are being "shut off" from a physical/sexual relationship with their wives (sometimes it is the other way around), and most likely it is due to some type of boredom or resentment of them that has turned thw wife off. After all of this time to defend her own actions Ann is going to dump on her husband in a way that portrays him as a materialistic man that knows nothing more to do with the people he loves then to shower them with material things. It is interesting how since the heat has been turned up on her decision that she now is willing to start throwing this man under the bus who she has mostly described as a decent man and good father, with the exception of a controlling sort of nature. Sometimes a controlling tendency can be made worse when that person begins to feel their wife slipping away and his paranoia about her commitment begins to run rampant. Her actions likely made this behavior worse.

 

I would also be willing to bet that his materialism and focus on obtaining the material things in life are likely some of the traits that attracted her to him in the first place. She sought out a good provider and wanted the trimmings and trappings of it all. She made her choice and made a commitment, and by all accounts this man has lived up to them and I am certain that his controlling nature was no big surpise to her as I am certain she knew about it prior to marrying him. She understood it was part of the deal and the trade off she made. But now, it is an inconvenience.

 

Beleive me, I am no religious zealot. I am a Chrsitain, but I belong to one of the more liberal denominations in our society and like many of us I attend church semi regularly when it fits my schedule. I don't walk around quoting scripture and I do not impose views on others, I suppose until now. I stand by my statement regarding how the baby boomes and the sexual revolution have ruined our society. And as I have searched for the answer the last place I thought to ever look was to God. Let me also add that what I am about to say is supported by every major religion throughout society and the world, so this is not necesarily a Jesus fest, it it is an attempt to look back to the wisdom of society and religion from all aspects of world history to find a reasonable answer and the truth is that marriage is a division of labor between a man and a women. Each have equally responsible roles to play of whoch neither is superior or inferior, but are different in nature with regard to the gender. Marriage is also a binding commitement. If you had any doubt about the guy, your time to bail out is prior to marriage. Once that decision is made, one should accept their role and work to the best at it despite the efforts of the other. One also must realize that will not always be perfect. The ide that one can move freely in and out of this contract is nonesense. Certainly divorce will continue to occur, but the one who decides to leave should not be left with the kids unless their is some legitimate reason, like abuse or addiction.

 

My point is, by all accounts this man has lived up to the vast majority of his marriage contract and to bail out is wrong and any and all rationalization as to why is all to soothe yourself.

[Texsun65]

my goodness texun!

 

ouch ouch and ouch again.

 

Hey im not saying what ann is doing sits well on my tummy but it is quite a statement you just made. Understandably a raw feeling you have but a sweeping genearlisation to say the least. I recon I need to see if you have written a Thread yet to see your story.

 

 

 

Hi Nob!

 

I'll give you my quick and dirty story.

 

I was a 24/7 fun time party hound when I met my wife. She loved it and loved me for being this fun and crazy guy. We get married. She wants me to grow up. She is a good woman, mother, and so on. She decides to use sex as a tool, perhaps not even realizing it, as a means to change my behavior. She withholds sex and gives me lists to meet in order for her to get that loving feeling back. I totally change my life. Dump friends, get good job/career, work hard, always home, never complain and happily go to any and all family events, I truly over her parents/family, help around the house, nice house, and car. A total transformation for Mr. Party 24/7. And furthermore I like my new life and new way. It's fine. It was time to grow up. No problem. Well, she continued to tell me that if I can just do these things that she asks then maybe she will get that living feeling back. But it never came. We had sex maybe 1 or 2, maybe 3 times a month yet it was boring and repetitive, clearly a chore for her. This went on for years. I guess I am a little slow on the uptake if you will. The struggle over this issue was stressful and filled with emotion. Over time I became resentful, bitter and angry. Made it also impossible to be the man she fell in love with. Further, I am hardly any fun anymore. I used to set our social calendar, but now I just don't care and she never wants to do what I want to do anyway. Somewhere along the way, she decided to assume control of our lives and use sex as a means to take over. Now she has an angry, bitter and complacent husband who looks nothing like the fun 24/7 party guy she married. She is bored and resentful that I have become such a jerk. What did she expect?

 

Finally, I realized her game and called her on it. The truth is, she really did not want to have much sex at all and she used that convenient fact as a tool to mold and change me. What she didn't realize is that she was eliminating all of the things about me that she loved in the first place. Like I said, I realized she didn’t want sex and used it as a tool and I called her on it. She reluctantly has sort of agreed that this is what happened, but I don't think she can fully accept that truth because she is such an otherwise decent person and a perfectionist and she just can't accept that this is what she did. I told her how a marriage needs to be in order for it to work and of course that included a more robust sex life among other things. She truly has tried to comply, but I know the truth. She is not into it. It is a somewhat forced march. One crazy side issue is that even through all her limitations on how often we made love and what we could/could not do, I was able to figure out what makes her "tick" and even at the height of our struggles, she is now able to have regular orgasms, while for years oddly when she was the most sexually open with me early in marriage, she was unable to. Now, I am not into it and satisfied because it is tough to enjoy something that my wife for years has indicated was not enjoyable to her nor something she wanted to do. At one time or another, she has indicated that virtually every aspect of our lovemaking is not enjoyable to her. How can I magically believe that now it is different?

 

To relate this all back to my message to Ann, when my wife married me, she married a man and she loved him. When she began using sex as a tool to get me to be what she thought she wanted, she turned me into a wuss. I did all of the things she asked, but she lost respect for me as a man. I should have put my foot down and told her how it was going to be years ago and that would have likely saved our happy marriage. Instead, I chased around her demands like a subservient little puppy dog and she got everything she thought she wanted, but she lost respect for me as a man which is what attracted her to me the most.

 

I have searched for answers to why this all happened and the last place I ever thought to look was to the ideals of the traditional marriage. After all, our screwed up society has preached this entire equality crap sine the 60's, but has anyone bothered to notice what has happened during the time period since? Marriage is a mess and the family is even worse off. Why? Because the notion of free love and sex and the "independent" woman is crap. Marriage has its meaning and gender roles and neither is inequitable to the other in its purest form. The lib movement gave women the power to make the rules. And they do have the power. The have the power to control sex and to use the desire for sex by men as a tool to manipulate their men. Well, they have been very successful and they have turned an entire generation of men into wusses and they hate it, but they don't even know they hate it. They string their men along with sex and then are shocked and surprised when their loving husband is banging the check out girl at Wal-Mart. And then our f-ed up society blames the man as a scoundrel and the beat goes on. Of course these women are then left with two kids, little money and are overworked and overstressed in a single parent household and the child is yanked form the guiding hands of their loving father all because some woman is bored in her marriage with her wuss husband. I am here to tell you that how society is teaching us to do and act is screwed up. Our daughters look to Britney Spears and the nuts in Hollywood as role models. What a load of crap. But, our politically correct world makes it impossible for anyone, especially men to stand up and say this is all crap. Well, I say its crap and I have stopped taking it. I have taken back my place as a man. I am not happy in my marriage but I am staying in it and I am not banging the check out girl at Wal-Mart. My wife can either decide to get on board or she can leave, but I will not leave my home and kids. She can also either decide to enjoy making love to me or she can endure it, but either way it will be happening.

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Please remember, all of this comes from Mr. Party 24/7, and by party you have no idea. I am no prude. [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]As luck would have it, here is an interesting article. [/sIZE][/FONT]

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1232485/My-generation-created-sexual-revolution--wrecking-lives-women-since.html

[floridapad]

Whoa Texas. Now that is insight. That is what Ann really needs to look at or I hope she sees it. No perhaps not the using sex as a tool thing, she has her own issues, as I'm sure the H does as well. The point is if you don't figure them out with your mate in your primary marriage then chances are you will have a tough time in your secondary marriage and end up in the same place.

 

Ann-you are still discovering yourself and the H needs to discover himself. You can do this together with the family. Don't put so much emphasis on being happy by saying your not "in love" with your husband. That's too easy and not looking at relationships, marriage and love at a deeper more understanding level.

[nobmagnet]

i respect and agree in oh so many ways.

 

I was bought up in an enviroment that was alien to most of my freinds. Happy parents with imporant roles with were well defined. I have always expected the same in life and wanted to be a great mum/wife/daughter. And heres the rub............. I turned into the wuss. He walked all over me. Denyed me sex and used it as a bargaining tool so when he did I would be eternally grateful. It was ****. Hey guess what happened next...................he porked the blummin payroll and had bu**ered off!

I totally beleive in traditional roles which ever way they work. But trust me it aint just women that do that kind of thing...........unless I am alone!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahaha

[El Ben]

Hi Nob!

 

I'll give you my quick and dirty story.

 

I was a 24/7 fun time party hound when I met my wife. She loved it and loved me for being this fun and crazy guy. We get married. She wants me to grow up. She is a good woman, mother, and so on. She decides to use sex as a tool, perhaps not even realizing it, as a means to change my behavior. She withholds sex and gives me lists to meet in order for her to get that loving feeling back. I totally change my life. Dump friends, get good job/career, work hard, always home, never complain and happily go to any and all family events, I truly over her parents/family, help around the house, nice house, and car. A total transformation for Mr. Party 24/7. And furthermore I like my new life and new way. It's fine. It was time to grow up. No problem. Well, she continued to tell me that if I can just do these things that she asks then maybe she will get that living feeling back. But it never came. We had sex maybe 1 or 2, maybe 3 times a month yet it was boring and repetitive, clearly a chore for her. This went on for years. I guess I am a little slow on the uptake if you will. The struggle over this issue was stressful and filled with emotion. Over time I became resentful, bitter and angry. Made it also impossible to be the man she fell in love with. Further, I am hardly any fun anymore. I used to set our social calendar, but now I just don't care and she never wants to do what I want to do anyway. Somewhere along the way, she decided to assume control of our lives and use sex as a means to take over. Now she has an angry, bitter and complacent husband who looks nothing like the fun 24/7 party guy she married. She is bored and resentful that I have become such a jerk. What did she expect?

 

Finally, I realized her game and called her on it. The truth is, she really did not want to have much sex at all and she used that convenient fact as a tool to mold and change me. What she didn't realize is that she was eliminating all of the things about me that she loved in the first place. Like I said, I realized she didn’t want sex and used it as a tool and I called her on it. She reluctantly has sort of agreed that this is what happened, but I don't think she can fully accept that truth because she is such an otherwise decent person and a perfectionist and she just can't accept that this is what she did. I told her how a marriage needs to be in order for it to work and of course that included a more robust sex life among other things. She truly has tried to comply, but I know the truth. She is not into it. It is a somewhat forced march. One crazy side issue is that even through all her limitations on how often we made love and what we could/could not do, I was able to figure out what makes her "tick" and even at the height of our struggles, she is now able to have regular orgasms, while for years oddly when she was the most sexually open with me early in marriage, she was unable to. Now, I am not into it and satisfied because it is tough to enjoy something that my wife for years has indicated was not enjoyable to her nor something she wanted to do. At one time or another, she has indicated that virtually every aspect of our lovemaking is not enjoyable to her. How can I magically believe that now it is different?

 

To relate this all back to my message to Ann, when my wife married me, she married a man and she loved him. When she began using sex as a tool to get me to be what she thought she wanted, she turned me into a wuss. I did all of the things she asked, but she lost respect for me as a man. I should have put my foot down and told her how it was going to be years ago and that would have likely saved our happy marriage. Instead, I chased around her demands like a subservient little puppy dog and she got everything she thought she wanted, but she lost respect for me as a man which is what attracted her to me the most.

 

I have searched for answers to why this all happened and the last place I ever thought to look was to the ideals of the traditional marriage. After all, our screwed up society has preached this entire equality crap sine the 60's, but has anyone bothered to notice what has happened during the time period since? Marriage is a mess and the family is even worse off. Why? Because the notion of free love and sex and the "independent" woman is crap. Marriage has its meaning and gender roles and neither is inequitable to the other in its purest form. The lib movement gave women the power to make the rules. And they do have the power. The have the power to control sex and to use the desire for sex by men as a tool to manipulate their men. Well, they have been very successful and they have turned an entire generation of men into wusses and they hate it, but they don't even know they hate it. They string their men along with sex and then are shocked and surprised when their loving husband is banging the check out girl at Wal-Mart. And then our f-ed up society blames the man as a scoundrel and the beat goes on. Of course these women are then left with two kids, little money and are overworked and overstressed in a single parent household and the child is yanked form the guiding hands of their loving father all because some woman is bored in her marriage with her wuss husband. I am here to tell you that how society is teaching us to do and act is screwed up. Our daughters look to Britney Spears and the nuts in Hollywood as role models. What a load of crap. But, our politically correct world makes it impossible for anyone, especially men to stand up and say this is all crap. Well, I say its crap and I have stopped taking it. I have taken back my place as a man. I am not happy in my marriage but I am staying in it and I am not banging the check out girl at Wal-Mart. My wife can either decide to get on board or she can leave, but I will not leave my home and kids. She can also either decide to enjoy making love to me or she can endure it, but either way it will be happening.

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Please remember, all of this comes from Mr. Party 24/7, and by party you have no idea. I am no prude. [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]As luck would have it, here is an interesting article. [/sIZE][/FONT]

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1232485/My-generation-created-sexual-revolution--wrecking-lives-women-since.html

 

I respect your opinion. I however differ totally. I think it's an odd beleif that a practice that evolved ages ago in some part of the world in order to solve a particular trend of socio-economic problems should be regarded as gospel truth forever and everywhere. People change. Cultures/social habits change. Marriage (and the beleifs that go with it) can also change.

 

I'm african, my grandfather had over 20 wives (and about 70 kids). THAT was our traditional marriage, which was very much in line with the religion (or lack thereof?) of the day. That tribe boasts of a population of about 50 million on mainland africa - did you by any chance factor this culture into your "major religion throughout society and the world" statement? And before you start off with how backward that culture must have been, it served a purpose. There was no rape, no illegitimate children, no infidelity. You liked the woman, you married her. All parties were happy.

 

In the end we all make our choices. I have changed since I met my stbx, and she has changed as well. Ann has changed. Her husband has changed. If you're not happy with your marriage (and to me you do appear extremely unhappy in it), then get out. Or stay and live with it. There's absolutely no need to come here decide get upset with other people for exercising their own choice and deciding to walk.

 

My advise to Ann is to do whatever she needs in order to get her act and her life together. Find the balance between what makes you happy and what is good for you, and follow that balance. Think hard and think well before you do.

Edited December 3, 2009 by El Ben

[floridapad]

No offense El Ben, but isn't that a little sexist to have 20 wives. I mean how are the women ever going to have that special "in love" feeling if they are not "the one" with their H. How will she feel loved if the man is shacking up with 20 different women.

 

Perhaps I'm not progressive enough or maybe old fashioned enough (ancient history wise), but as people change (and they will change and continue to grow throughout their life time), it seems foreign to me to just throw away the person your with and move on. No history, memories etc. Just move on. I'm afraid if a person has this mind set they will be moving on every 4-6 years for the rest of their life. ALL marriages go through periods of difficult times (consider divorce), yet quite a few get through them and down the road are very happy because they are in love again or at least learn what love truly is and can share their children together.

[Texsun65]

I respect your opinion. I however differ totally. I think it's an odd beleif that a practice that evolved ages ago in some part of the world in order to solve a particular trend of socio-economic problems should be regarded as gospel truth forever and everywhere. People change. Cultures/social habits change. Marriage (and the beleifs that go with it) can also change.

 

I'm african, my grandfather had over 20 wives (and about 70 kids). THAT was our traditional marriage, which was very much in line with the religion (or lack thereof?) of the day. That tribe boasts of a population of about 50 million on mainland africa - did you by any chance factor this culture into your "major religion throughout society and the world" statement? And before you start off with how backward that culture must have been, it served a purpose. There was no rape, no illegitimate children, no infidelity. You liked the woman, you married her. All parties were happy.

 

In the end we all make our choices. I have changed since I met my stbx, and she has changed as well. Ann has changed. Her husband has changed. If you're not happy with your marriage (and to me you do appear extremely unhappy in it), then get out. Or stay and live with it. There's absolutely no need to come here decide get upset with other people for exercising their own choice and deciding to walk.

 

My advise to Ann is to do whatever she needs in order to get her act and her life together. Find the balance between what makes you happy and what is good for you, and follow that balance. Think hard and think well before you do.

 

 

 

 

It seems to me that if every man had 20 wives, then there would be no need for infidelity. Having that many and having that as an accepted part of society would render the term infidelity as virtually meaningless. By the way, how has that philospohy worked out as a whole for that society?

 

The evidence is right in everyone's faces but most are unwilling to accept it. Those cultural changes from the 60's have negatively affeted our society. The thought process that love and sex is free, marriage can be entered into and disregarded at will, and one need not marry to procreate and spread their seed at will, with whomever and whenever they want has left an entire generation without any rooting and foundation provided by the stability of the family unit. Failure to recognize that is the perverbial "putting ones head in the sand." The lib movement are the ones that claim to help women, but the women are the ones generally left high and dry. They end up with the kids and the responsibility and the men end up poor and lonely. Sounds great!

 

Just like the African society you describe, many men here are reluctant to stand up for what is right because it will shut off their free love gravy train. Having 20 wives to run around with sounds great. Having 20 girlfriends with no commitment and responsibility sounds great to some as well. In the end the cost of that selfishness harms individuals and society and to rationalize it as acceptable only perpetuates the cycle of the problem. You can justify it all you want and you can be upset that I did not consider this African culture in my thought process, but that does nothing to solve the problem. From what I recall, the indigenous African culture is rampant with AIDS and poverty. Every time I turn on the news there is information about the attempts by Africa and the Nations helping them to try and change the very behaviors that you indicate validate the free love way of life.

 

The evidence is clear, unlike the fallacy of global warming, that the free love movement has destroyed the nuclear family and the resultant carnage is bad for society and most of all bad for our children. Defend it if you will.

[El Ben]

It seems to me that if every man had 20 wives, then there would be no need for infidelity. Having that many and having that as an accepted part of society would render the term infidelity as virtually meaningless. By the way, how has that philospohy worked out as a whole for that society?

 

The evidence is right in everyone's faces but most are unwilling to accept it. Those cultural changes from the 60's have negatively affeted our society. The thought process that love and sex is free, marriage can be entered into and disregarded at will, and one need not marry to procreate and spread their seed at will, with whomever and whenever they want has left an entire generation without any rooting and foundation provided by the stability of the family unit. Failure to recognize that is the perverbial "putting ones head in the sand." The lib movement are the ones that claim to help women, but the women are the ones generally left high and dry. They end up with the kids and the responsibility and the men end up poor and lonely. Sounds great!

 

Just like the African society you describe, many men here are reluctant to stand up for what is right because it will shut off their free love gravy train. Having 20 wives to run around with sounds great. Having 20 girlfriends with no commitment and responsibility sounds great to some as well. In the end the cost of that selfishness harms individuals and society and to rationalize it as acceptable only perpetuates the cycle of the problem. You can justify it all you want and you can be upset that I did not consider this African culture in my thought process, but that does nothing to solve the problem. From what I recall, the indigenous African culture is rampant with AIDS and poverty. Every time I turn on the news there is information about the attempts by Africa and the Nations helping them to try and change the very behaviors that you indicate validate the free love way of life.

 

The evidence is clear, unlike the fallacy of global warming, that the free love movement has destroyed the nuclear family and the resultant carnage is bad for society and most of all bad for our children. Defend it if you will.

 

Hmm. Ahem.

 

Firstly, I do not consider having 20 wives to be ideal, it is totally vile and derogatory.

 

Secondly, I will not get sucked a possibly inflamatory discussion about "the indigenous African culture is rampant with AIDS and poverty". I see no evidence whatsoever that the african culture alone led to this. Global warming on the other hand can and has been proven scientifically. But we were talking about marriage. We were talking about society. We were talking about cultural change and it's effects on the institution of marriage.

 

For HIV to spread, there MUST be a group of people with multiple sexual partners. In other words, say 10 men sleeping around, and another 10 women sleeping around, but not only with each other. If these 20 people only slept with each other, there will be no spread of disease. In other words, one man with 20 wives won't spread HIV unless he and/or at least one of his wives has other sexual partners.

 

Scientifically, the HIV virus is supposed to have evolved from a strain within a type of monkey found in africa. Also, there is a gene, most common in the Nordic people, that inhibits the spread of the HIV virus. This gene is least common amongst the people of african descent. 25% of people of european descent (not sure about that statistic) are immune to HIV. If we factor this into the example above, then if we have 20 africans and 20 europeans who sleep around, statistically, only 15 of the europeans can catch/spread the disease. The spread will be much slower! So there is a genetic/racial component to the spread of HIV. I wonder, is it possible perhaps that the spread of HIV in africa is not entirely cultural?

 

Society is constantly changing, constantly evolving, constantly being replaced. The society that existed in my grandfather's HIV free day doesn't exist today - My dad has just one wife. The cultural constraints and vessels that we use to preserve society must constantly adapt to a changing society. Marriage incidentally is one of those constraints.

 

I'll tell you what would do wonders for marriage - a return to the sexist 18th century values, where your wife didn't talk back, didn't have an opinion, she simply stayed at home ran the household, while the men were free to do their "thing" as the pleased. I assure you, divorce rates would drop like magma through butter if this happened. But this will NOT happen. Society changes. Sometimes you just have to think a little, reason a little to figure things out. It is indeed clear, but it requires just that little extra reasoning sometimes.

 

I leave you with an old african tale:

 

 

***************

A teenage girl fried fish in a pan in the kitchen. Her mother came by to see how she was getting on, and then scolded her. "I've told you time and time again, always cut the fish in two before frying!" Her mother chided

"But mom", the girl protested

"Why must I cut the fish in two? As long as I fry carefully, the fish comes out nice regardless of whether or not it's cut"

"Don't argue with me" replied her mother.

"That's the way it's done! My mother taught me this very lesson herself, and she learnt it from her mother".

Just then, the girl's granny walked in.

"Nan", the girl protested shrilly

"Mum said I must always cut the fish in two before frying. She said you taught her to do so; why is this so". She she looked enquiringly at her grandmom

"Tell her mother" her mom chipped in

"Children of today always question what we tell them".

 

The old woman looked at her daugher and grand-daughter and smiled. These mother daughter conflicts were generational. She sighed to herself.

"Well dears" she began

"when Grandpa and I were younger we were quite poor. The only pan we had was a small pan, so we always had to cut the fish in two to fit it into the pan...."

*******************

Edited December 3, 2009 by El Ben

[Texsun65]

Hmm. Ahem.

 

Firstly, I do not consider having 20 wives to be ideal, it is totally vile and derogatory.

 

Secondly, I will not get sucked a possibly inflamatory discussion about "the indigenous African culture is rampant with AIDS and poverty". I see no evidence whatsoever that the african culture alone led to this. Global warming on the other hand can and has been proven scientifically. But we were talking about marriage. We were talking about society. We were talking about cultural change and it's effects on the institution of marriage.

 

For HIV to spread, there MUST be a group of people with multiple sexual partners. In other words, say 10 men sleeping around, and another 10 women sleeping around, but not only with each other. If these 20 people only slept with each other, there will be no spread of disease. In other words, one man with 20 wives won't spread HIV unless he and/or at least one of his wives has other sexual partners.

 

Scientifically, the HIV virus is supposed to have evolved from a strain within a type of monkey found in africa. Also, there is a gene, most common in the Nordic people, that inhibits the spread of the HIV virus. This gene is least common amongst the people of african descent. 25% of people of european descent (not sure about that statistic) are immune to HIV. If we factor this into the example above, then if we have 20 africans and 20 europeans who sleep around, statistically, only 15 of the europeans can catch/spread the disease. The spread will be much slower! So there is a genetic/racial component to the spread of HIV. I wonder, is it possible perhaps that the spread of HIV in africa is not entirely cultural?

 

Society is constantly changing, constantly evolving, constantly being replaced. The society that existed in my grandfather's HIV free day doesn't exist today - My dad has just one wife. The cultural constraints and vessels that we use to preserve society must constantly adapt to a changing society. Marriage incidentally is one of those constraints.

 

I'll tell you what would do wonders for marriage - a return to the sexist 18th century values, where your wife didn't talk back, didn't have an opinion, she simply stayed at home ran the household, while the men were free to do their "thing" as the pleased. I assure you, divorce rates would drop like magma through butter if this happened. But this will NOT happen. Society changes. Sometimes you just have to think a little, reason a little to figure things out. It is indeed clear, but it requires just that little extra reasoning sometimes.

 

I leave you with an old african tale:

 

 

***************

A teenage girl fried fish in a pan in the kitchen. Her mother came by to see how she was getting on, and then scolded her. "I've told you time and time again, always cut the fish in two before frying!" Her mother chided

"But mom", the girl protested

"Why must I cut the fish in two? As long as I fry carefully, the fish comes out nice regardless of whether or not it's cut"

"Don't argue with me" replied her mother.

"That's the way it's done! My mother taught me this very lesson herself, and she learnt it from her mother".

Just then, the girl's granny walked in.

"Nan", the girl protested shrilly

"Mum said I must always cut the fish in two before frying. She said you taught her to do so; why is this so". She she looked enquiringly at her grandmom

"Tell her mother" her mom chipped in

"Children of today always question what we tell them".

 

The old woman looked at her daugher and grand-daughter and smiled. These mother daughter conflicts were generational. She sighed to herself.

"Well dears" she began

"when Grandpa and I were younger we were quite poor. The only pan we had was a small pan, so we always had to cut the fish in two to fit it into the pan...."

*******************

 

 

Man made global warming has not been proven. The earth has not even been warming for the last 10 years but the researchers have been fraudulently "creating" the data they need to support their theories. You have duped by the media and the liberal left. See article. http://www.nationalexpositor.com/News/1978.html

Further, the earth has warmed and cooled by staggering amounts over the course of its existence and will always be doing one or another. It is ridiculous to assume the temp of the world will remain constant nor would evolution allow it. What year would you propose to be "the year" that we try to maintain the earths temp pegged to as the "perfect year". It is such nonsense.

 

I stand by my views on the negative influence of the 60's lib movement and sexual revolution. It has been bad for familes and most importantly bad for women and I cannot see how anyone can argue against it unless they are haning on to the benefits for their own personal agenda.

[El Ben]

Man made global warming has not been proven. The earth has not even been warming for the last 10 years but the researchers have been fraudulently "creating" the data they need to support their theories. You have duped by the media and the liberal left. See article. http://www.nationalexpositor.com/News/1978.html

Further, the earth has warmed and cooled by staggering amounts over the course of its existence and will always be doing one or another. It is ridiculous to assume the temp of the world will remain constant nor would evolution allow it. What year would you propose to be "the year" that we try to maintain the earths temp pegged to as the "perfect year". It is such nonsense.

 

I stand by my views on the negative influence of the 60's lib movement and sexual revolution. It has been bad for familes and most importantly bad for women and I cannot see how anyone can argue against it unless they are haning on to the benefits for their own personal agenda.

 

Oh. Man made warming. I'm neither here nor there on that, but the fact that the earth has cooled and warmed previously doesn't necessarily imply that this is one of those times.

 

I must say I'm quite disappointed that you have failed to clarify your implied statement that african culture is what led to "poverty and HIV" in africa.

[Texsun65]

I did not claim that African culture led to AIDS and poverty per-se. I do claim that a decline in the moral standards of American Society as a result of the 60's generation clearly holds a major portion of the responsibility for increased poverty of families, the increase of single parent families, the loss of male role models and the exploitation of women in America.

 

I do not know enough about African culture to make any statement about what it is about the culture that causes AIDS to be such a problem, but clearly something is going on in certain parts of that Continent that causes AIDS to be so widespread. We all know what causes AIDS and you have self identified your culture as one that permits and promoted men to have multiple wives. All of that explanation by you about how AIDS cannot proliferate in a circumstance where a man has 20 wives is nonesense and is obviously so by the facts on the ground in Africa. I did not blame the scourge of AIDS on Africa as it think you may have suggested, so dont; get all bent out of shape about that.

 

My point from the beginning is that the failure of Western society to follow its own religious traditions in favor of those that seem to feel good at the time has caused us great harm. Failure to see that is a failure of common sense. Please keep in mind that I am not some right wing religious zealot, nor am I a prude attemping to cram my prudishness on others. I am a person who has "been around the block", but upon reaching middle age and having the experienced much of the life and of the world, once one steps back and looks at what has unfolded in America, it is clear what has happened. The lib movement and the Hollywoodization of America is ruining a generation. It is our fault and until people become strong enough to look past what feels good for today and focus on what is right in long run, then our society will continue to decline.

 

What is a rational argument against this notion?

[El Ben]

Nonsense?

 

Explain to me then, how will one man with ten wives get HIV unless he or at least one of his wives engages in extra-marital sex? Explain it please. Then I will agree that it's nonsense.

This notion of "western cultural values" in itself is also a myth. I don't doubt that you have "been around the block", I do however question your knowledge of your history.

 

Fact: Christianity is NOT Western. It is middle eastern. Monogamy was spread christianity by the roman empire. This is not an argument against monogamy (which incidentally I strongly support).

 

You should also be aware that the lowest occurrence of HIV worldwide is in the middle east. Islamic countries. Where polygamy is in fact allowed. Perhaps you can explain this?

 

Perhaps my scientific explanation is not nonsense afterall? Perhaps your "round the block" wisdom is not all-encompassing afterall??

Edited December 7, 2009 by El Ben

[Gunny376]

Hi, sounds like you are in a similar situation to the one I found myself in. I also had been with my husband for 14 years. I no longer had those rush of emotions that would fill my heart with love. No passion. No overwhelming heart warming feelings. No yearnings for physical contact... uncomfortable physical moments...

 

The counselor said we had developed into a mother/son relationship. He loved me. He didn't want to break up. He had no idea my feelings had so changed.

 

I couldn't help it though. He would say to me, "I wish you had a switch I could flip and you'd love me again." and I would respond, "I wish you had a switch I could flip and you wouldn't love me anymore."

 

I couldn't change my perception or view of him. I was tired... frustrated... and just ready to move on.

 

In the end, I suppose you should sit down and go through the pros and the cons of your situation. That's what I did... of course, leaving your husband and working out the details of the kids is a huge risk, you could easily make things worse... or things could get better. It's an unknown. Staying put is very known to you. You have to decide what you want. Not you as the mother... not you as the wife... but you as the woman that you are.

 

The very reason I will never marry again!

 

Flaky Broad Syndrome!

 

Forever chasing that "Ahhh" feeling of love.

 

"I'm not JR your not Sue Ellen this isn't Dallas, turn off the tv I've got to get some sleep cause I've got to go to work tomorrow!"

[Texsun65]

Nonsense?

 

Explain to me then, how will one man with ten wives get HIV unless he or at least one of his wives engages in extra-marital sex? Explain it please. Then I will agree that it's nonsense.

This notion of "western cultural values" in itself is also a myth. I don't doubt that you have "been around the block", I do however question your knowledge of your history.

 

Fact: Christianity is NOT Western. It is middle eastern. Monogamy was spread christianity by the roman empire. This is not an argument against monogamy (which incidentally I strongly support).

 

You should also be aware that the lowest occurrence of HIV worldwide is in the middle east. Islamic countries. Where polygamy is in fact allowed. Perhaps you can explain this?

 

Perhaps my scientific explanation is not nonsense afterall? Perhaps your "round the block" wisdom is not all-encompassing afterall??

 

 

I don't have to explain anything. AIDS is transmitted by specific behaviors. If those behaviors are present, then AIDS proliferates. If those behaviors are not present, then AIDS will not spread. Is AIDS a problem in Africa? Then the question answers itself, period. There is no potential for argument unless you are telling me that is a result of IV drug abuse and not multiple sexual partners. You are arguing an indefensible point as the evidence/facts answer the question. Unprotected sexual encounters with multiple partners spreads AIDS. If there is AIDS in a population, then........

 

As far as Christianity beginning in the Middle East and then spreading thru the world, well that certainly is true. But that does not mean that these values are not the foundation of Western Civilization because they are.

 

I have no idea why the polgymay practiced in Islamic states does not result in the same level of AIDS infection as that in Africa. My guess is the Islamists are much more strict and adhere more specifically to the one man with multiple wives an those wives do not stray. Cleary there is a difference in behavios between these two cultures.

 

Further, we alo know that strict Islamic States deny the existence of certain behaviors in their countries and suppress any data related to those bahaviors. Ahmadinajad stated that there are no homosexuals in Iran, but everyone knows that is not true. They also deny that AIDS is and issue and suppress data to the contrary.

 

The fact as that certain behaviors cause AIDS. When there is a high incidence of AIDs then by definition those bahaviors exist. Our orginal disagreement related to AIDS in Africa and you implied that the certain style of plygamy practice in your country could not spread AIDS, but the facts make it very clear that your statement is wrong.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Texsun65