Snowflower Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 Snowflower, It does take a strong person to forgive, but it takes a fool to forgive, without the cheater showing true remorse and absolute committment to honesty. Why do you assume that she is worth keeping? You , nor do any of us, know the full extent of her dishonesty and adultery. Forgiveness is only one of many options that the OP can choose from. But nothing can be done and no choices can be made until the OP is aware of the full extent of her treachery, and can make a fully informed decision. Good question...the bolded part above. I'm responding to what the OP wrote in his post originally...it happened 20 years ago. I am going to assume unless the OP tells us differently, that his wife was a faithful woman for the ensuing 20 years. No one here knows for sure, but that was the gist of the OPs responses here. I personally think that is worth something...if in fact it was true...that the wife was faithful after the fact. There were a few posters going on about the fact that since she had vandalized her APs vehicle, that there must have been some emotional attachment on her part. I say, who cares...it was 20 years ago...she obviously feels something different all these years or she would have left her husband or continued cheating (assuming that she was faithful ever since). The assumptions made here were terrible (she is getting ready to cheat again, she must have enjoyed what she did with the other guy) and that is what I have a problem with. I agree that the OP shouldn't forgive without more facts and probably some MC/IC...but it wasn't like this cheating occurred last week either. It was a long time ago...not that it mitigates things or the seriousness of what the wife did...but a lot of things change in 20 years. The current marriage is what needs to be assessed here.
JamesM Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 It does take a truly strong person (man or woman) to attempt to forgive their spouse and reconcile (not necessarily in that order) after infidelity. It is much easier to walk away. So true. For those who have taken the time to resolve the anger from the affair and taken the time to truly understand what was behind it all, they have found that the easiest but less rewarding path would have been to walk away. Forgiveness is not easy. I have found a strong correlation between those BSs who advocate walking away with the ones who have walked away. I have noticed that those who say kick her/him to the curb are the ones whose anger still lies beneath the words of their posts. It does take a strong person to forgive, but it takes a fool to forgive, without the cheater showing true remorse and absolute committment to honesty. Why do you assume that she is worth keeping? Forgiveness is not some quick thing that happens in a minute or two. Many strong emotions are there first...including anger, sadness, rejection, extreme hurt and so much more. Yet with time, these emotions can be resolved. True remorse is not quickly stated. And it takes time for the WS to realize how his or her actions have affected the marriage. But the only way it can be done is through communication and understanding of the BSs feelings. So many marriages are lost and broken that could have been saved if the emotions at the outset had been patiently dealt with before the rash decision of leaving was taken.
Gabriele Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 HeartbrokeIII, (OP) I am wondering how you are doing?? There have been alot of things posted here, I am curious where you are and which comments are hitting close to home for you? Are you feeling that you want to work through this with your Wife? Are you pursuing counseling, with or without her? Are you both talking? are you angry, sad, beside yourself, are you eating, sleeping? It can be alot to take in, and like me (as we kinda have similar situations) are probably just playing the past 20 years over in your head and trying to figure our where you were 20yrs ago and what was going on in your life/marriage. Is your Wife showing remorse? begging for you to stay with her? apologizing? and if she is, how is that settling with you? Do you have some support? I know I don't want anyone to know, so kinda alone with my feelings, and that's not easy. Thinking of you (hugs) Gabriele
Lizzie60 Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 HBroken.... only YOU know if you can forgive her and eventually 'forget' the whole thing... it's been a looong time.. it probably hurts to know she kept this secret all those years.. but do you really want to end a life-long relationship for what can be a 'mistake'... Nevermind what people think here.. in the end it's YOUR decision... Some posters are extremely bitter..and it shows in every freaken posts they write.. ignore them... they are NOT good advices.. their advices are tinted with their own bitterness... they CANNOT be objective.. Do what is BEST for YOU!... simple as that.. Plus, make a good examination of your conscience and maybe.. just maybe you have things that need to be 'forgiven'... just a thought..
boldjack Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 Lizzie, I have never felt bad about you until now. You have stated in many other threads that you don't believe in life-long relationships or "forever",, and here you are counseling this Op to believe in things you don't adhere to yourself. This is the most hipocritical thing you have ever said. You haven't been in a stable relationship for many years, how would you know what the OP is going through? OP, you must do what is best for you, do not be brow-beaten by either side, those who counsel forgiveness or thoses who counsel divorce. Find out ALL of the information you can, and make your decision in your own good time, and make the decision that suit's you best, not your wife. She has forfeited her right to influence your decision by her dishonesty and adultery. DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU.
schewter Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 <<She has forfeited her right to influence your decision by her dishonesty and adultery. DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU.>> Not neccessarily; and not for you to say. Heartbroken will decide for himself how much weight to give his wife in deciding which direction their marriage will now take. And HB will decide for HIMSELF if HE ascribes to the belief that so many on here do that having cheated diminishes everything else a person ever was. I think in 31 years he has gotten to know his wife quite well...I know the cynics will say "evidently not since he didn't know THIS was happening" but we all as human beings have the potential to act grossly out of character, that doesn't mean who we typically are is a lie; we are many faceted. BH, your wife did a very bad and hurtful thing 20 years ago...take stock of all the goods and bads you've both committed throughout your 31 years of marriage and see where the scales line up. Despite what people say on here I am sure not a day went by in the past twenty years where your wife didn't feel guilt, shame, regret and every other emotion that concience dictates.
Trimmer Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 Not neccessarily; and not for you to say. Heartbroken will decide for himself how much weight to give his wife in deciding which direction their marriage will now take. And HB will decide for HIMSELF if HE ascribes to the belief that so many on here do that having cheated diminishes everything else a person ever was. That's a good point, and I think it gets to my discomfort - even as a 2-times cheated-upon, wife-walked-away, former-BS - with some of the absolutist attitude on this thread. Cheating undeniably diminishes and changes some things that can never be regained or rebuilt. But it does not destroy everything. My wife's cheating didn't take away my manhood - I owned that and I didn't have to "man up" any more than I needed to before. It didn't destroy our parental bonds with our children, nor did it "waste years of my life." I take full responsiblity for the value of my life in those years. It changed and ruined some things, but not everything. So while there's a lot of running around talking about John Thomsons in love canals and asserting that everything the OP has lived is ruined and a waste, I see the question is one of balance: Is there enough left - and in this case, possibly enough rebuilt over time, that you decide the balance is worth it? And yes, you may well decide (as I'm sure I would) that any ability to begin rebuilding trust must start with full, honest disclosure. I'm not disagreeing with the absolutists on that point at all. Maybe it comes from my experience of waking up to my two wonderful children day by day, but I just don't see the binary, absolute stand that "all that was a waste." That is, indeed, for the OP to decide, and it should be a much more personal decision than we could possibly make for him based on a few characters on our own computer screens.
Dexter Morgan Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 You know, it just kinda slips out without you realizing it: Implying that you don't believe he's a man now, or that he can only regain his manhood by following your specific prescription? apparently you don't know how "man up" is used. its an expression. many men, who are indeed men, need to "man up"...in other words, stand up for yourself. Of course he is a man. man up doesn't suggest that he isn't. Its a way of saying, "wake up".
Lizzie60 Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 Lizzie, I have never felt bad about you until now. You have stated in many other threads that you don't believe in life-long relationships or "forever",, and here you are counseling this Op to believe in things you don't adhere to yourself. This is the most hipocritical thing you have ever said. You haven't been in a stable relationship for many years, how would you know what the OP is going through? OP, you must do what is best for you, do not be brow-beaten by either side, those who counsel forgiveness or thoses who counsel divorce. Find out ALL of the information you can, and make your decision in your own good time, and make the decision that suit's you best, not your wife. She has forfeited her right to influence your decision by her dishonesty and adultery. DO WHAT IS BEST FOR YOU. Huh???? you need to re-read my post.. I am saying the exact same thing you are.. do what's best for you... and I'm adding 'nevermind what others think, especially the bitter posters who only see black and white'... I have not changed my mind.. I do not believe in life-long relationships.. but obviously other people do... I give my advices depending on each situation.. it's never a 'one situation fits all'.. like other people seem to think.... I was probably in a longer relationship than you've ever been.. and to be honest.. I think my advices are just as good as yours.. plus .. oh nevermind..
Dexter Morgan Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 So, Dex, are you implying that someone that stays with a cheating spouse is not a man? (or a woman - if the tables are turned) Just askin'? I get the same implication that trimmer did. nope, you and trimmer just dont understand the concept of what it means to tell a guy to "man up". Has nothing to do with his manhood or her manliness.
Dexter Morgan Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 <<This is an interesting thread, and I gotta say, Dexter is consistently the voice of reason when it comes to the subject of cheating. He iunderstands the concept of having the self-respect and power to walk away from someone who has disrespected you.>> Nonsense...Dexter is the last person I would seek advice from in matters of infidelity.. oh, *sniff*...I'm crushed. I'll need to pop some Sominex tonight.
Trimmer Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 apparently you don't know how "man up" is used. its an expression. many men, who are indeed men, need to "man up"...in other words, stand up for yourself. Of course he is a man. man up doesn't suggest that he isn't. Its a way of saying, "wake up". OH! An expression! Oh, I didn't get that it was an expression.... Oh, well that changes things completely, then. Wake up means you're asleep. Man up means you aren't acting like a man. Dance around all you want on the semantics, your point is certainly objectively defendable. My point was: do you have any idea how your words sound to the OP? That's called empathy, and it's not incompatible with telling the difficult truths. You said you weren't criticizing. I pointed out something that probably sounded pretty harsh to the OP. I stand by it.
schewter Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 I knew you would be...and nothing personal...like talking politics.
Dexter Morgan Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 There were a few posters going on about the fact that since she had vandalized her APs vehicle, that there must have been some emotional attachment on her part. I say, who cares...it was 20 years ago because she told her H that SHE ended the affair....that being the case, why would she damage his car? therefore it is the belief of people who caught that, that she did not end the affair, the OM did, and she got revenge. H asked her, and we think she lied to him about that. And if that is the case, and she didn't end the affair, then the affair would more than likely have kept going. if she is going to tell the truth, then tell the full truth. After 20 years she decided to spring this on him, why put other lies in there with it? The church sermon must not have hit home 100% with her. The assumptions made here were terrible (she is getting ready to cheat again, she must have enjoyed what she did with the other guy) no, she did it because it made her sick to her stomach:rolleyes: and that is what I have a problem with. I agree that the OP shouldn't forgive without more facts and probably some MC/IC...but it wasn't like this cheating occurred last week either. It was a long time ago...not that it mitigates things not that it mitigates things, even though you just attempted to help mitigate it by saying "it wasn't like this cheating occurred last week":o or the seriousness of what the wife did it wasn't serious...it was 20 years ago!!!! remember?
Dexter Morgan Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 OH! An expression! Oh, I didn't get that it was an expression.... Oh, well that changes things completely, then. Wake up means you're asleep. Man up means you aren't acting like a man. Dance around all you want on the semantics, your point is certainly objectively defendable. My point was: do you have any idea how your words sound to the OP? probably the same as when they were said to me. I DID need to man up. I knew I was a man, wasn't anything less than a man....but I did need to man up. It means be strong, take control. has nothing to do with being a man, no matter what you want to think. It was said to me by one of my best friends. I got it and agreed.
Trimmer Posted November 6, 2009 Posted November 6, 2009 probably the same as when they were said to me. I DID need to man up. I knew I was a man, wasn't anything less than a man....but I did need to man up. It means be strong, take control. has nothing to do with being a man, no matter what you want to think. It was said to me by one of my best friends. I got it and agreed. I hope your words help the OP. (PS - loved your use of "want to" up above. Don't ever give up that commitment to arrogance...)
LakesideDream Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 I wonder how the OP is doing? The bile being spewed on this thread has been enough to scare anyone away from LS forever. When someone asks for help, why not give it. Why go into attack mode and paint the most miserable picture imaginable? Few posters gave the BS the respect of a thought out response. I've read all the same responses. The OP's wife did a bad thing... real bad, a very long time ago. Presumably she moved past it. Presumably she's been a good wife, mother, friend, and lover since. 20 years is a very long time. No credit earned there? If not credit, how about a little understanding?
boldjack Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 HB, I'm sure you are overwhelmed by all of the bitterness that is being expressed from both sides. Some like Dexter are for throwing your marriage away, others preach forgiveness and reconciliation, without any good reason, except the wishful desire to let bygones be bygones. None have tried to answer your question of whether or not you will ever know, how many times she cheated. If it was only one man (boss) or whether there were others. The answer Now, is that you cannot know until she is willing to tell you. Right now you know nothing about this woman, she probably feels like a stranger to you. you are probably confused and in great pain,the only way for you to be able to put this behind you is if your wife is willing to be honest NOW, we already know that she was not , in the past. You must think of what you are willing to accept, as proof of remorse and her recommittment to you and your marriage. Complete honesty on her part would be a wonderful way of showing you all of these things, and could form a basis for reconnection, just as continued evasion signals that there is more to her story than what she has told you. I hope that you can have some time alone, away from her, and the constant reminders of her acts. My only advice would be to consider a trial separation, to clear your head, and allow you to think, and be able to make the decisions that are best for you. It takes a strong person to get through infidelity, regardless of which course you take. Let nobody tell you that if you decide to end the marriage, that you have in any way failed. She cheated, you did not. If you decide to forgive her, again, let nobody tell you that your trust in her is anything other than an attempt by you to put this affair in the past. You have my very best wishes and hopes for a positive resolution to this crisis..........Jack
boldjack Posted November 7, 2009 Posted November 7, 2009 BTW, to all posters who latched on to the "man-up', thing and have been using it as a whip to scourge those who disagree with you. Man-up has absolutely nothing to do with manhood, or manliness, it is a sports expression , meaning to "tough it out", or to face up to unpleasant responsibilities or issues. That's all, folks!!
Dexter Morgan Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 BTW, to all posters who latched on to the "man-up', thing and have been using it as a whip to scourge those who disagree with you. Man-up has absolutely nothing to do with manhood, or manliness, it is a sports expression , meaning to "tough it out", or to face up to unpleasant responsibilities or issues. That's all, folks!! exactly. never did I feel less like a man when going through my tough time...but my best friend told me I needed to "man up", and he was right.
seibert253 Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 My best friend gave me the best advice. He never used the phase "man up", but phased it a little different. "Stop being such a p#ssy and get your d#ck out of your azz".
samspade Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 "Man up" when coming from a female usually has shaming attached to it. It's actually a ***** test, and any man who succumbs to the pressure to "man up" because a woman said so has failed miserably and lost her respect.
Dexter Morgan Posted November 9, 2009 Posted November 9, 2009 "Man up" when coming from a female usually has shaming attached to it. It's actually a ***** test, and any man who succumbs to the pressure to "man up" because a woman said so has failed miserably and lost her respect. unless the man, says, "ok....I'll man up"...and then opens the door and tells her to walk through it;)
Author Heartbroke III Posted November 11, 2009 Author Posted November 11, 2009 HeartbrokeIII, (OP) I am wondering how you are doing?? There have been alot of things posted here, I am curious where you are and which comments are hitting close to home for you? Are you feeling that you want to work through this with your Wife? Are you pursuing counseling, with or without her? Are you both talking? are you angry, sad, beside yourself, are you eating, sleeping? It can be alot to take in, and like me (as we kinda have similar situations) are probably just playing the past 20 years over in your head and trying to figure our where you were 20yrs ago and what was going on in your life/marriage. Is your Wife showing remorse? begging for you to stay with her? apologizing? and if she is, how is that settling with you? Do you have some support? I know I don't want anyone to know, so kinda alone with my feelings, and that's not easy. Thinking of you (hugs) Gabriele Gabriele, Thanks for asking. I'm doing better, still having all kinds of emotions. My wife has opened up and started telling me about the affair and the emotions she was dealing with at the time. We still hope to save the marriage. She has begged for forgiviness and said this was the only time she has been unfaithful. In time I hope that my trust in her can be restored. I know that she is a good woman, one that is worth staying with. The next couple of months will tell if we can make it. Heart Broke III
LifesontheUp Posted November 11, 2009 Posted November 11, 2009 Good to hear you are doing better Heartbroke. Your wife begging forgiveness to me is a good sign. Perhaps you could consider some counselling to help you both work through this. I wish you luck.
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