To have hope or not?

[HeavenOrHell]

I don't know how to tell for sure if he will come back or not, most people say he has sounded confused and that neither he nor anyone knows for sure how he will feel in the future, and that he might not even know himself.

He left me in July, after 18 years due to my neglect, we meet regularly still, he still looks at me so fondly and says he still needs me.

He left me twice years ago and came back, even though he said he wouldn't be coming back.

He says there are no other reasons he left except the neglect as I was busy (obsessed with animal care).

There is a little bit of hope, but it's hard to move forward when you still have a bit of hope.

I don't know whether to hope or not?

[Printer]

I don't know how to tell for sure if he will come back or not, most people say he has sounded confused and that neither he nor anyone knows for sure how he will feel in the future, and that he might not even know himself.

He left me in July, after 18 years due to my neglect, we meet regularly still, he still looks at me so fondly and says he still needs me.

He left me twice years ago and came back, even though he said he wouldn't be coming back.

He says there are no other reasons he left except the neglect as I was busy (obsessed with animal care).

There is a little bit of hope, but it's hard to move forward when you still have a bit of hope.

I don't know whether to hope or not?

 

Hang on in there HeavenOrHell. It ain't over till it's over.

I can relate to your feelings so much. I've been waiting 9 months for my wife to return to our 17 year marriage.

We have talked and gone out together for meals etc, having a great time. She says she still feels the same, but seems to be confused and lost.

I just can't give up for me or my son.

We are both waiting and praying for a second chance.

We live in hope too.

[Ronni_W]

HoH,

I understand that he says that you "neglected' him but, at the time, did you feel that you were actually being "neglectful"? (Not with hindsight, I mean. In any case, it is possible that he has tainted your hindsight with his own under-developed expectations and blame.) And, if you genuinely felt it, "neglectful" in which way?

 

Which of his needs did he expect you to fulfill that you were not fulfilling due to your taking care of those animals? What prevented him from meeting his own emotional, physical, mental, social, financial and/or spiritual needs? Howcome YOU got/took the responsibility for meeting another adult's needs/wants?

 

He does sound confused...about what constitutes appropriate (healthy, functional) adult self-reliance and self-responsibility. Just because he's blaming you does NOT mean that you are "guilty" of anything! The sad part is that, as long as he is just blaming you and not able to take care of his adult Self, then there is pretty much zero hope for things to improve -- he'll just keep blaming you (or his next partner.)

[westrock]

He does sound confused...about what constitutes appropriate (healthy, functional) adult self-reliance and self-responsibility. Just because he's blaming you does NOT mean that you are "guilty" of anything! The sad part is that, as long as he is just blaming you and not able to take care of his adult Self, then there is pretty much zero hope for things to improve -- he'll just keep blaming you (or his next partner.)

 

Ronni,

 

Here is some background from HoH's other post:

 

We were passionate when we slept together but the problem was I would often reject him as I was tired or stressed over the animals, for 7 months a year I would have no days/hours off at all except to sleep, I would work 6.30 am to 10pm.

 

I don't know anyone, man or woman, that can put up with that kind of neglect in a relationship. Sadly, with that kind of neglect there was no relationship.

 

When he hinted a couple of years ago that he was finding the time and energy on the animal care a problem, I started to make changes, BUT at first I said I couldn't compromise I am so ashamed of that now and he knows that. I made some changes, but not enough, I did not take him seriously enough, assumed we'd be ok.

When it got to spring this year and he said he wasn't sure if he wanted to be with me anymore and said it was because of the neglect, I finally took him totally seriously, I stopped taking animals in and devoted my time to him/us, but he said it was too late.

 

He tried to express his needs but she said she refused to compromise. Only after he started questioning the relationship did she finally get it. After putting up with such neglect for so long, it's no wonder he is hesitant now.

 

HoH, I don't want to sound all negative. On the bright side, it seems like he is still interested despite everything so I think there is still hope for the two of you, but I think he's completely justified to be hesitant. It's not going to change over night as you need to rebuild the trust with him. I think the only thing you can do at this point is to sit down and have several talks with him and show by your actions over a period of time that you have changed. You should also offer to go to individual and marriage counselling to get at the root of your obsession with the animals at the expense of your relationship and your own well being.

[HeavenOrHell]

Thank you for taking the time to reply

 

I must make it clear that he is not blaming me for what happened, on the contrary he has been worried that I have been blaming myself too much when he said he could have made more fuss or fought more to save our relationship.

 

At the time I was vaguely aware that I was running around and not having time for him, or was too stressed/tired to sleep with him, I stupidly assumed we would be ok.

Neglectful as in spending very little time together, and coming across as if the birds were more important than him.

He just wanted to feel loved and needed still, to feel he was part of my life and not on the edge of it as he put it. I wasn't making time for us.

He suffers with long term depression, he is better now than he was, but not 100%, he says that I 'saved' him.

I think for a few years he did look to me for most of his fulfilment in life, this was before and during me caring for animals, I had more friends and hobbies than him. I was happy when he then started part time work and also made more friends, I can't help thinking though that now that he has all these loving friends,mostly female as he relates better to females as he is not all macho, that he doesn't need me so much I needed him no matter how many friends I had.

I know what you mean-no-one can be responsible for meeting another adults needs or wants, but in a relationship you can expect to feel loved and needed and it's not to much to ask.

Since he moved into his flat he has given no indication that there is any hope, but I still hope that in time he will trust me again.

He is quite an independent person, same as me, but we did and still do need each other, although I didn't show it much the last couple of years.

He says he doesn't want anyone else at the moment and that it will take him a long time to work out if he does want to be with anyone else.

I really want to be there for him but it's hard to be now I'm not his partner.

 

 

HoH,

I understand that he says that you "neglected' him but, at the time, did you feel that you were actually being "neglectful"? (Not with hindsight, I mean. In any case, it is possible that he has tainted your hindsight with his own under-developed expectations and blame.) And, if you genuinely felt it, "neglectful" in which way?

 

Which of his needs did he expect you to fulfill that you were not fulfilling due to your taking care of those animals? What prevented him from meeting his own emotional, physical, mental, social, financial and/or spiritual needs? Howcome YOU got/took the responsibility for meeting another adult's needs/wants?

 

He does sound confused...about what constitutes appropriate (healthy, functional) adult self-reliance and self-responsibility. Just because he's blaming you does NOT mean that you are "guilty" of anything! The sad part is that, as long as he is just blaming you and not able to take care of his adult Self, then there is pretty much zero hope for things to improve -- he'll just keep blaming you (or his next partner.)

[Ronni_W]

Ronni,

Here is some background from HoH's other post:

Thanks, westrock.

 

HoH, gonna modify my earlier post. I'd suggest that you ask your ex how long he plans to be "confused" about whether or not he wants to seriously try again with you, or does he just plan to get even by neglecting YOU for the next "couple of years"?

 

I get, now, that you let your priorities go all out of whack, and that it may have gone on for most of the 18 years that you were together. But he only expressed his discontent "a couple of years ago" AND you did try to make changes right away...albeit rather grudgingly, bitterly and half-assedly.

 

Today, though. You can forgive yourself. And he either forgives you, or he does not. You do not "deserve" to be mistreated for even a second! It does not matter what went before. HE was responsible to speak up for his own needs in a TIMELY manner, and HE "neglected" to do that for 15 or 16 years??? WTF? No wonder you didn't take him seriously...who would have, at that point?

 

It was NOT just you. It was BOTH of you. Tell him to make up his freakin' mind pronto because you've got about...30 days?...of matyrdom left in you. WTF? Do not neglect and abandon your own Self, for goodness' sake. Stand up and speak out: Ask to be treated properly. He either forgives you for past stuff, or he does not. He does not get to "punish" you for it, over and over, day in and day out. Do not let him do that to you. Please. If you will.

 

I do agree with westrock:

sit down and have several talks with him ... You should could also offer to go to individual and marriage counselling to get at the root of your obsession with the animals at the expense of your relationship and your own well being.

And ask your guy to do individual to get at the root of his passive-aggressiveness and inability/unwillingness to communicate his own needs, feelings, etc., in a TIMELY manner because that behavior is also detrimental to the relationship and the well-being of the individuals.

[HeavenOrHell]

Many thanks for your reply, you are right that no-one would put up with that kind of neglect, although somehow we still retained closeness and lots of affection.

He doesn't know I want him back and I can't tell him that as I don't want the pressure to be back on,it was very pressured in the 3 months before he went as I was trying desperately to show him what he meant to me, finally. And if I say I want him back it's like I still haven't taken him seriously. So as far as he is concerned we will always be just friends.

We had 2 Relate sessions 2 years ago and they warned us we need to communicate when we have problems, but we still didn't as we were scared to rock the boat.

In April/May this year he wanted to go to Relate alone, I kept saying please could I go too. After his 2nd session he seemed happier about things and said don't worry, but soon after he withdrew hugs, kisses etc, we were a very affectionate pair.

I've been seeing Relate since he left to deal with the break up and also to see if there might be any way back, turns out I see the therapist he saw, she said nothing wrong with having hope as he has seemed confused at times about how he feels and the fact he's left before and come back, although this time he has taken EVERYTHING of his with him, it is final as far as he is concerned. Obviously the therapist can't tell me what he said or give anything away, but at one point she said "I don't normally do this.." and she made a suggestion, which was something she thought might help us. I imagine she was surprised at the intensity of my feelings for him, after hearing what he had to say.

A couple of times he's called me by his pet name for me, another word for lover, although not for a month or so now, and I guess it is just habit.

I called him a similar name a couple of weeks ago and I said sorry I shouldn't say that should I and he said there's no rules.

Well I thought there was rules now we're not partners! I mean I want to hug and kiss him but he'd probably run a mile On the other hand it would show him how much I love him still.

But just cos you have strong feelings for someone doesn't mean that will help them feel the same, as he said before he left; it matters how he feels too, so it didnt really make any difference to him how I felt about him not by that late stage.

I have been getting across to him how much I miss him and how depressed I am, without appearing desperate sort of thing, he thought I would be over him in two weeks so I want him to know that is so NOT the case.

I said if I went NC would you miss me, he said he already does miss me. It's like he has deep love for me, but doesn't want to be my partner, but doesn't want anyone else at the moment.

Hmm, it's not simply that he's hesitant, I don't even think us trying again has crossed his mind Understandably.

He can see I've changed with regards to the animals, not taken any new ones in for months now, bless him-he said don't give it up altogether as you're good at it and you need to keep busy. Main thing is he can see my attitude has changed.

I think he has been surprised at how much his leaving me as affected me. It's just appalling he thought I'd be over him in 2 weeks.

I've been talking to my therapist about the animal care obsession. All I can say is that it is common for animal rehabbers to be so passionate about what they do that it can cause break ups, you get to the point you can't turn any animal away, also we have no kids, through choice, but I did feel maternal towards to the animals.

I was hopeful about 6 weeks ago as his sis rang me out of the blue and said she was confused and that she spoke to him 2 days ago and had I seen him since then, I said "why?" and she said she thought he might have moved back in (I have no contact with her, but they are very close and speak most weeks), I said no we're just friends, she sounded confused and said a couple of times "I really hope you can work things out". It made me confused wondering what he had said to her, I thought he talks to her about everything, so I wondered if he'd been having second thoughts at all, before that I'd assumed he'd been saying to her that he felt much happier for leaving. But it came to nothing, so I guess I was wrong.

I'm torn as I want to continue to see him, and to try and show him I care and try and build things up again, but maybe I am just up against a dead end

Can people think they want something else, but maybe deep down they do still want the same thing?

Can hurt cause a person to close their heart off? Can it kill the in love feeling forever? Where does the in love feeling go if it dies? Can it still be there deep down?

But then I have to remember he said it would be final if he left. On the other hand he has chopped and changed before, although not lightly.

 

Ronni,

 

Here is some background from HoH's other post:

 

 

 

I don't know anyone, man or woman, that can put up with that kind of neglect in a relationship. Sadly, with that kind of neglect there was no relationship.

 

 

 

He tried to express his needs but she said she refused to compromise. Only after he started questioning the relationship did she finally get it. After putting up with such neglect for so long, it's no wonder he is hesitant now.

 

HoH, I don't want to sound all negative. On the bright side, it seems like he is still interested despite everything so I think there is still hope for the two of you, but I think he's completely justified to be hesitant. It's not going to change over night as you need to rebuild the trust with him. I think the only thing you can do at this point is to sit down and have several talks with him and show by your actions over a period of time that you have changed. You should also offer to go to individual and marriage counselling to get at the root of your obsession with the animals at the expense of your relationship and your own well being.

[HeavenOrHell]

Hi, he hasn't said to me there's any hope, not actually said he is confused or given me any reason to think he might want to try again, so he's not leaving me dangling anymore, I was in limbo in the 3 months before he left when he couldn't work out what he wanted, and he didn't make the decision lightly, it kept him awake for the past year. We've not talked about getting back together at all.

He made his decision when he left, so I'm probably being a fool for having a little bit of hope, sometimes I have none and then I slide back into depression.

In the run up to him leaving he felt very guilty for keeping me in limbo, he has been incredibly sensitive and caring through all of this.

No, we didn't have problems for all those 18 years, not at all, I started the animal care 7 years ago but it didn't become madly busy until about 4 or 5 years ago.

I did try to make changes when he first mentioned it but I made a fuss and dug my heels in, so clearly it came across that the animals came first and were more important (they weren't but it's how I came across).

Yes he could have made more of a fuss, he has said that himself several times, but he comes from an abusive background where you were punished if you dared say you weren't happy, NOT than I am abusive, but I can see why he found it hard.

He does not want me to blame myself, he has made that very clear and feels upset if I blame myself, he said it took two of us to make it work (or not, as the case may be).

He doesn't act like he has anything to forgive me for at all, he's not mistreating me, maybe I just haven't explained things very well. Why do you say he is punishing me? By doing what exactly?

He doesn't come across as passive aggressive at all. But he has been seeing a therapist for depression for years and he is much better than he was.

I suffer with anxiety and depression, we have both said that neither of us is perfect and have been hard to live with at times. I know he is not perfect.

What I'm sad about is that I've made positive changes but I doubt I will be able to have a second chance. But he can't force himself to be in love with me if he's not anymore can he

 

 

 

 

Thanks, westrock.

a

HoH, gonna modify my earlier post. I'd suggest that you ask your ex how long he plans to be "confused" about whether or not he wants to seriously try again with you, or does he just plan to get even by neglecting YOU for the next "couple of years"?

 

I get, now, that you let your priorities go all out of whack, and that it may have gone on for most of the 18 years that you were together. But he only expressed his discontent "a couple of years ago" AND you did try to make changes right away...albeit rather grudgingly, bitterly and half-assedly.

 

Today, though. You can forgive yourself. And he either forgives you, or he does not. You do not "deserve" to be mistreated for even a second! It does not matter what went before. HE was responsible to speak up for his own needs in a TIMELY manner, and HE "neglected" to do that for 15 or 16 years??? WTF? No wonder you didn't take him seriously...who would have, at that point?

 

It was NOT just you. It was BOTH of you. Tell him to make up his freakin' mind pronto because you've got about...30 days?...of matyrdom left in you. WTF? Do not neglect and abandon your own Self, for goodness' sake. Stand up and speak out: Ask to be treated properly. He either forgives you for past stuff, or he does not. He does not get to "punish" you for it, over and over, day in and day out. Do not let him do that to you. Please. If you will.

 

I do agree with westrock:

 

And ask your guy to do individual to get at the root of his passive-aggressiveness and inability/unwillingness to communicate his own needs, feelings, etc., in a TIMELY manner because that behavior is also detrimental to the relationship and the well-being of the individuals.

[HeavenOrHell]

I hope things work out for you

 

 

Hang on in there HeavenOrHell. It ain't over till it's over.

I can relate to your feelings so much. I've been waiting 9 months for my wife to return to our 17 year marriage.

We have talked and gone out together for meals etc, having a great time. She says she still feels the same, but seems to be confused and lost.

I just can't give up for me or my son.

We are both waiting and praying for a second chance.

We live in hope too.

[Ronni_W]

Hi HoH.

I understand what you believe about your relationship and your ex. But that also means that I have totally misinterpreted your posts and/or your situation.

 

I know that it's inaccurate, but I'm still seeing a lot of manipulative and punitive (passive-aggressive) behaviour in what you're posting about how he's doing his side of things.

I know that's not your experience, though, and I have no desire to 'argue' your own experience-truth with you. I mean, that would just be ignorant and arrogant on my part

 

Of course, I do wish for you the very best, and send

Hugs and Healing

[Miss Clavel]

Thank you for taking the time to reply

 

I must make it clear that he is not blaming me for what happened, on the contrary he has been worried that I have been blaming myself too much when he said he could have made more fuss or fought more to save our relationship.

 

At the time I was vaguely aware that I was running around and not having time for him, or was too stressed/tired to sleep with him, I stupidly assumed we would be ok.

Neglectful as in spending very little time together, and coming across as if the birds were more important than him.

He just wanted to feel loved and needed still, to feel he was part of my life and not on the edge of it as he put it. I wasn't making time for us.

He suffers with long term depression, he is better now than he was, but not 100%, he says that I 'saved' him.

I think for a few years he did look to me for most of his fulfilment in life, this was before and during me caring for animals, I had more friends and hobbies than him. I was happy when he then started part time work and also made more friends, I can't help thinking though that now that he has all these loving friends,mostly female as he relates better to females as he is not all macho, that he doesn't need me so much I needed him no matter how many friends I had.

I know what you mean-no-one can be responsible for meeting another adults needs or wants, but in a relationship you can expect to feel loved and needed and it's not to much to ask.

Since he moved into his flat he has given no indication that there is any hope, but I still hope that in time he will trust me again.

He is quite an independent person, same as me, but we did and still do need each other, although I didn't show it much the last couple of years.

He says he doesn't want anyone else at the moment and that it will take him a long time to work out if he does want to be with anyone else.

I really want to be there for him but it's hard to be now I'm not his partner.

 

 

then why does it have to be all or nothing? do you want to live with him again?

 

you can still be "with" him without living together and having to answer for your time.

 

go slow. i think it takes about a year for partners in a break up to really get an idea of where they were and where they want to go.

 

sometimes the man just wants to have sex with someone else, having the free pass of "being on a break". but from reading your post i have to say, it seems that he has looked around and in spite of your neglecting him, he still wants you and your attention.

 

i don't know how old you are but do you really think at this late date you will make such a huge change in your personality and be less involved in projects and friends? because if you can't at least schedule him in a few times a week, it's not fair to him to lead him on.

[HeavenOrHell]

Many thanks for your reply.

It has to be all or nothing because I want him as a partner and he just wants to be friends, we have been meeting since we split and it's lovely but the lack of hugs and intimacy is really really getting to me, we were so affectionate, he says hugs would complicate things now.

I feel like I will always be wanting what we used to have while I'm still meeting him, he split up with me 4 months ago. I can't go straight from being partners/lovers to being close friends. Well I've tried but I can't let go of hope we'll get back together if I still see him. But it is killing me not seeing him, not seen him for 9 days, my decision.

I feel so hurt now that no I wouldn't want to live with him again, well not for a long time anyway, but I will probably not have the luxury to decide that anyway as I guess he'll never want to try again with me

He's made no indication he'll ever want to try again.

I just wish he would give me the chance, give us the chance to rebuild, but I guess he's just gone too far down the road to want that now.

He's made it clear he's not interested in another relationship with anyone else yet, he said it will take him a long time before he even knows if he wants to be with anyone else. The week before he said he was leaving he said he didn't want to be with anyone else, he said it would be weird cos it wouldn't be me and he shuddered. I'm his first girlfriend.

I'm 43, he's 39.

I have already made huge changes, soon as I knew he was serious about not knowing what he wanted, so from March I stopped taking animals in so I could devote time to us and I have made it clear I will never go down that route again, it's not worth it, I just wish I had kept a balance of everything in my life before it came to this. He didn't expect me to give up all the things which kept me busy he just wanted some time for him too. It's been nice doing stuff together since we split.

I haven't been leading him on, I haven't said I want him back, I couldnt bear the rejection I would probably get.

I've made it clear that NC is cos I care and not cos I don't. I said he is still the centre of my life and that it's wrong as we're not partners anymore, and that my feelings for him are so deep that it's hard to let go and move on.

I guess a person can feel so hurt that they give up and walk away and never feel the same again. He loves me and needs me still but not as a partner.

 

then why does it have to be all or nothing? do you want to live with him again?

 

you can still be "with" him without living together and having to answer for your time.

 

go slow. i think it takes about a year for partners in a break up to really get an idea of where they were and where they want to go.

 

sometimes the man just wants to have sex with someone else, having the free pass of "being on a break". but from reading your post i have to say, it seems that he has looked around and in spite of your neglecting him, he still wants you and your attention.

 

i don't know how old you are but do you really think at this late date you will make such a huge change in your personality and be less involved in projects and friends? because if you can't at least schedule him in a few times a week, it's not fair to him to lead him on.

[name witheld]

Thats a pretty sad story and I can relate to a lot of it. Some positives coming through, maybe just need some time. Now that you're in NC perhaps things will change as he will begin to see you're not just going to be there.

 

My situation is similar in a way, not neglect exactly ok maybe on some level. I too did not listen to her repeated attempts to talk to me, was so busy I did not even see the relationship deteriorate.

Now it looks like its too late, she has made her mind up.

 

I don't know how to tell somebody that they have finally gotten through to you when they have tried before and failed. If you find out please let me know.

[name witheld]

One thing though maybe NC not such a great idea as it seems like you guys had a communication breakdown and more of the same might not help?

I know you probably feel like there is no other way after all this time, but thats just my thought.

[Crusoe]

Hi Heaven. I hope you dont mind me saying that you seem to be a truly wonderful person, and that is something your man is not going to forget easily.

You know, a person can only neglect something that is incapable of fending for itself, therefore I cannot believe that you, of all people, are capable of neglecting any living thing. By moving out, your man has proven he can fend for himself, therefore you did not neglect him, he just feels like you did, there is a difference.

Also your man seems to be a very decent fella, yet he is at that second age where many men pause and reflect on their lives, many get confused and are unsure of what they want from life. He left you at the age of 30 and is doing so again as he nears 40. I wish to give you no false hope, but I would just hang on in there as best you can, make no rash decisions, do whatever you have to do to keep yourself going, be patient and see what occurs. No self blame, no self doubt.

[HeavenOrHell]

Many thanks for your reply, much appreciated

 

 

Hi Heaven. I hope you dont mind me saying that you seem to be a truly wonderful person, and that is something your man is not going to forget easily.

You know, a person can only neglect something that is incapable of fending for itself, therefore I cannot believe that you, of all people, are capable of neglecting any living thing. By moving out, your man has proven he can fend for himself, therefore you did not neglect him, he just feels like you did, there is a difference.

Also your man seems to be a very decent fella, yet he is at that second age where many men pause and reflect on their lives, many get confused and are unsure of what they want from life. He left you at the age of 30 and is doing so again as he nears 40. I wish to give you no false hope, but I would just hang on in there as best you can, make no rash decisions, do whatever you have to do to keep yourself going, be patient and see what occurs. No self blame, no self doubt.