Affairs and Lying

[moaningmyrtle]

Nearly all BSs (once they find out) know that their WS lied to both them and the OW/M. What I find interesting is the number of OW/M who are currently in affairs (or recently out of them) who seem to sincerely believe that their APs do/did not lie to them; while at the same time knowing that these same people were lying to their BSs.

 

Slightly off topic I know but personally I don't subscribe the the view that there is an "affair fog" but I do think that part of many affairs is the creation of an "affair bubble".

[jennie-jennie]

Whose husband could be lying to who??????

 

I was talking about your husband. No man is above suspicion, right?

[fooled once]

It isn't just about sex.

 

I see all the time on here "he doesn't lie to me". Really? How do you KNOW he doesn't lie to you? Or better yet, why do you believe he is telling you the truth about whether he has sex with his wife, whether they have a roommates only type of relationship, etc.

 

Sex is just one part of any relationship.

 

Stuckinoz

 

But personally (sorry about the generalization) I think MOST married men lie to their wives all the time. Not just those in affairs. I just think it's what men do.

I disagree with this. I don't think men are liars. I actually think women lie more often and more easily than women do. Women are taught as little girls to manipulate.

 

Bullhunter -- you bring a very valid point to this discussion. Even on here I have read where the OW is the aggressor and only dates MM. One even talked about pursuing one; she was going to take what she wanted. And again, as little girls, women are taught about manipulation and getting what they want.

 

jj33

 

I do wonder how someone can believe that stuff if the married person isnt in the process of taking action to leave. If its THAT bad, people divorce. I think sometimes the AP wants to believe the tales they are told because it gives them something to hang onto.

 

I agree with you. I have always wondered when I read on here about how "miserable" these men are yet they make no move to divorce and are the victim. Then they meet and get so taken with a woman and they have a relationship and he falls in love.....but can't divorce his wife even though he is miserable and has been or cares about her but isn't in love with her or has kids and doesn't want to break up the family or doesn't want to disappoint his family or the kids are grown and he doesn't want to lose "his" money or any combination of these excuses.

 

I do OWN what I did, my participation in continuing the affair even after the MM I was involved with moved back home. I should have bowed out. And I can guarantee he wasn't with me for sex - we had sex 3 times in 2 years (he had performance issues ~ he was 20 years older than me)

 

Thanks everyone for a good discussion!

[fooled once]

I was talking about your husband. No man is above suspicion, right?

 

My husband wasn't part of this discussion. This discussion is about affairs and my husband hasn't nor is he having an affair. Why would you bring this up?

 

I never said no man was above suspicion. Again, this is about Affairs and lying. Please stick to the subject.

[NoIDidn't]

Whose husband could be lying to who??????

 

I was talking about your husband. No man is above suspicion, right?

 

My husband wasn't part of this discussion. This discussion is about affairs and my husband hasn't nor is he having an affair. Why would you bring this up?

 

I never said no man was above suspicion. Again, this is about Affairs and lying. Please stick to the subject.

 

 

I figured she was talking about your H personally with that comment.

 

Ever notice how when people start asking questions about lying and the other deceptive practices that go on in affairs, someone always tries to make it personal when you are really just starting a discussion about it?

[wheelwright]

1. You mention that your MM was making some very big decisions about his future? Did that mean whether to stay in his marriage, or to be with you, or neither/something else?

Yes, about me & him. And also MLC style thinking about what he wanted. He knew he didn't want to leave me dangling from the outset. He made a choice. He thought ahead more than me. He also thought about whether he could betray his W long term. He couldn't. He carefully considered whether I could be his long term soulmate, because he had been disconnected from her for so long. But when it came to the crunch, he put all his effort into making his W his soulmate again, as presumably she had shown promise of being years bofore.

 

2. When he 'regained intimacy' in his marriage, you say the A ended. Who ended the A, you or him? Did his wife know about the A? Does your H?

We both ended it. There was no room for two from my perspective and he knew that. Both spouses found out about the A one month subsequent to this decision. But the end of the A was a kind of 'this won't go on while you reconnect to your wife thing'. There was dangling until DDay.

 

 

3. When you quit sharing a bedroom with your H, was that what you meant by the deceit? That you H didn't know the truth? Was it the weight of the deceit or because of your feelings for the MM?

 

Both. The deceit and my feelings meant I could not share with my H. It drove me mad on both fronts. The deceit was my feelings if you know what I mean.

 

As you are a BW I feel I should say sorry for your hurt. I honestly thought their marriage wasn't worth a lot, and I was wrong. But neither me nor MM knew that at the time. I have to add that the BW had told me she didn't love him and that she had never loved him, before anything happened between us, and while I doubt the truth of this now, it gave me some kind of go ahead (I never told him of this). Didn't she betray him by saying this? He never said this about her, and I never bad mouthed my H either. We were respectful in that way.

 

We never blamed the marriage problems on our partners. Just said we were not fulfilled. Which was clear anyway by what we were doing.

 

And now we are all in pain. And I feel a fool because I took a couple of things his W said (on the two occasions I talked to her) as gospel instead of intuiting what 15 years of marriage means to people.

 

It is difficult to decipher lies from truth here. I guess what they say about actions speaking louder is the key.

[jennie-jennie]

FooledOnce: "Why can't we accept that they could be lying to us?"

 

Of the same reason you do not believe your husband is lying to you, we know them and we trust them. Why would we want to put ideas of non-trust into our heads?

[NoIDidn't]

Of the same reason you do not believe your husband is lying to you, we know them and we trust them. Why would we want to put ideas of non-trust into our heads?

 

But you also know that he is lying to someone else about your very existence. How do you assume that he would never lie to you like he's doing to her?

 

I think this is what fooled is saying, after stepping away from the affair, though, mind you.

 

I think she is saying that she was naive to think that he wouldn't lie to her just like he was obviously lying in some capacity to his W to be with her. Understand what I am saying?

[fooled once]

But you also know that he is lying to someone else about your very existence. How do you assume that he would never lie to you like he's doing to her?

 

I think this is what fooled is saying, after stepping away from the affair, though, mind you.

 

I think she is saying that she was naive to think that he wouldn't lie to her just like he was obviously lying in some capacity to his W to be with her. Understand what I am saying?

 

Exactly NID. I wasn't talking about my husband either. I was talking about KNOWN situations where the married person is lying due to an affair. If I wanted to ask about monogamous relationships and lying, I would have posted in a different forum.

 

I knew and trusted the married man I was having an affair with ~ and it turns out ---- he was LYING. I mean, at least the MM I was having an affair with MOVED out for a year and if I wasn't at his apartment, he was at my house. I knew he was telling the truth about moving out and I knew he was telling the truth about separation -- because he did those things and even contacted and saw the same lawyer I had used for my divorce years earlier.

 

But I also know he lied about many things; but I didn't know those things until AFTER THE AFFAIR ENDED.

[jennie-jennie]

But you also know that he is lying to someone else about your very existence. How do you assume that he would never lie to you like he's doing to her?

 

I think this is what fooled is saying, after stepping away from the affair, though, mind you.

 

I think she is saying that she was naive to think that he wouldn't lie to her just like he was obviously lying in some capacity to his W to be with her. Understand what I am saying?

 

Of course I understand what Fooled is saying. I am sorry for what happened to her. Perhaps she was naive. She was most likely very much younger than I am today and very much less experienced in life.

 

People lie. That does not mean that they lie to everyone. My MM lies (or rather omits to tell the truth) to his wife because he wants to make it look like he is honoring his commitment. He has always been the good guy, the guy who does the right thing - until he hooked up with me that is.

 

He has no commitment to me to honor. He can not make himself look like Mr Good Guy by lying to me. He had nothing to lose by being honest to me: if I did not want him as he is he could just go back to his wife.

 

He told me he had sex occasionally with his wife until half a year ago. He has told me many harsh truths. Why would he suddenly start lying after taking the hard route for so long? It makes no sense.

 

There is no need for him to lie to me. I am not going anywhere.

 

If I was his wife and he felt committed to stay with me, yes, in that case I would believe there was a possibility that he could lie to me. Because commitment is important to him, so important that he lies to protect it. Which is why he and I will never marry, even if he leaves his wife. I don't want him to feel committed to stay with me. I want him to want to stay with me.

[mybrowneyedgirl]

im not sure its about the wife going anywhere or not. i think they lie because it hurts to much to admit all of the terrible thing theyve done.

 

i find it sad that people who are betrayed by their number 1 person in life find it in their hearts to forgive but still are being lied to.

[jennie-jennie]

Fooled, I am interested in one thing. Did you actually find proof that your MM had been lying to you after the affair or did you reevaluate what he said to you because of how the affair ended?

 

The destination at the end of the road does not tell whether the journey to get there was honest and truthful or not. Just because your MM ended up with his wife, does not mean that what he said to you was not true. At the time.

 

Or perhaps your MM was more of the deceitful kind. There is no way for me to know if that was the case.

[bentnotbroken]

This is an interesting thread. Interesting because of the assumption that it's the MM who does all of the lying.

 

Completely ignored are the married men who get embroiled in affairs primarily due to the lying the AP has done. I come back here and read every once in awhile simply hoping that at some time I will see a thread not portraying the OW as an innocent victim and the MM as the rapacious aggressor. It's not always the case.

 

The presentation is that of a friend. Not someone who is interested in you sexually or as anything other than simply a friend. However, at least in my case, I found out after the fact that this woman had planned to relieve me of my marriage from the get-go. In fact she even told me that at one point, but at that particular point I was drunk on the idea of her. It didn't soak into my befuddled brain until much later when I had regained my equilibrium.

 

I don't claim to be a victim. I could have said no. I didn't. Each step forward I made a choice and each step except at the end was the wrong choice. However, I did not begin the pursuit, nor was I at any step in between the aggressor.

 

Had I been honest with my wife, though, nothing would have happened. She was the only true victim in the situation and the only one who actually showed character.

 

In my humble opinion affairs would never happen if no one ever lied. But it is not always the MM doing all the lying.

 

 

This is Mr. Messy to a tee. He was the pursuier. They both were agressive and she plays the game a hell of a lot better than he does. She never would have left a paper trail. She told him to get rid of the evidence, he was too arrogant to think he couldn't get busted. OW aren't innocent nor or MM.

[bentnotbroken]

im not sure its about the wife going anywhere or not. i think they lie because it hurts to much to admit all of the terrible thing theyve done.

 

i find it sad that people who are betrayed by their number 1 person in life find it in their hearts to forgive but still are being lied to.

 

 

That's why I felt like it would be healthier for me to move on.

[jennie-jennie]

And I can guarantee he wasn't with me for sex - we had sex 3 times in 2 years (he had performance issues ~ he was 20 years older than me)

 

Have you considered that your MM's performance issues may have been caused by guilt feelings for the affair? I believe this is quite common in EMRs. My MM suffered from this for a while, with both his wife and I. Once he got over his guilt feelings, he performs like a virile teenager boy. No problems whatsoever.

[jennie-jennie]

I do understand that it would be easy for my MM at any given moment to resume his sex life with his wife. But he would not lie to me about it. Would he tell me about it without being asked though? That is a good question. Generally he brings the subject up by himself. If he stops doing that, who knows, I might get suspicious and ask.

Edited October 30, 2009 by jennie-jennie

[Meaplus3]

Does it really take getting out of it for seeing them for what they were/are? When my A ended and I realized what a dope I had been, I was so embarrassed for believing what he told me. It was quite a humiliating experience.

 

Well it did for me. Once I was out, and I mean 100 % over the emotional affair. It was then that I was fully able to see just what a monster I had become involved with. It's funny how I look back now and say "What on earth was I thinking". I still live nextdoor to xmm and see him around and about all the time. Now I'm like "How could I ever have found anything about him attractive"? He was a big time player and real good lier. So glad that chapter in my life is closed for good. And yes.. most affairs are full of lies. It's not a relationship built on honestly in any way at all.

 

Mea:)

[Spark1111]

I can only speak to my own experience as a fBW now reconciling.

 

He told her we rarely, if ever had sex and she believed him.

 

She said, well then she must have a lover. He believed her.

 

We were sexual at least once a week and he did have performance problems, which were new for us. Not sure if he experienced that with her, too.

 

Is this intentional lying? I don't think so. I think it is more an unconscious choosing to believe the delusion to allay guilt, and that is different, IMHO.

 

Technically lying? Well, of course.

 

Intentional? No.

 

The only one who was intentionally lied to was me.

[jj33]

I agree with you. I have always wondered when I read on here about how "miserable" these men are yet they make no move to divorce and are the victim. Then they meet and get so taken with a woman and they have a relationship and he falls in love.....but can't divorce his wife even though he is miserable and has been or cares about her but isn't in love with her or has kids and doesn't want to break up the family or doesn't want to disappoint his family or the kids are grown and he doesn't want to lose "his" money or any combination of these excuses.

 

I think its tricky. I think most people who have affairs are looking for relief from the problems in their marriage or are looking to fill in the gaps with regard to what is missing.

 

Sometimes what is missing either in general or during the fallow times in a marriage, or when they are questioning things in themselves even if they dont consciously face those thoughts.

 

I dont see anything inconsistent about the fact that someone could fall in love with the AP and yet not want to dissolve the marriage and everythign that it stands for.

 

Emotions arent as logical as we would like them to be. They are messy and confused and contradictory at times. if someone isnt looking to leave or for practical reasons or duty obligatoin whatever it may be truly beleives that they cant leave, then its the MP who is stuck in the limbo.

 

The AP if they fall in love with the MP is easily drawn into that web.

 

I know I used to wonder how can he want to be with anyone else if he is married? And how can he be so bonded with me and carry on with his marriage? It just didnt make sense to me.

 

But in retrospect, he was getting his needs met the same way you order from a chinese menu - one from column a and 2 from colulmn b.

 

And it was stressful for him. I know that. Im not saying he was a victim but it was stressful to live 2 lives in parallel.

 

Its something I think most people have a difficult time carrying on for an extended period of time even if they are very good at compartmentalizing.

 

But I think there is a fundamental flaw in the "he lied to me". Its never good to be waiting in the wings for someone to leave a marriage. Its such a big decision, that someone may believe at a certain point in time that they will leave and 2 days later decide no then yes then no...

 

Until someone is sure they wont know. And if they are in an affair that is not an exit affair then they are unlikley to be able to make a decision until they have time and space away from the AP to determine what they want. There are always exceptions to the rule but in general that seems to be the way things go because if they have both then there is no way to compare.

 

I know there are expections (such as OWoman) and there are MPs who out and out lie to keep the AP on the hook and in the relationship but I think in fairness that this is not as frequent as people want to believe.

 

I think as often that the AP wants to believe that leaving is a clear choice. But if it were a clear choice, the MP wouldnt be having an affair, they would have left.

 

As I have said on other threads, most people who have affairs arent shopping for a new spouse.

 

Very few people are cut out to have an affair and keep it on that level.

Its all too easy as the AP to think how could she/he not want to leave given the situation. In some ways I think the AP is often more naive and romantic than the MP (I know I was).

 

I dont mean this as a criticism but I think that if you are not an MP having an A, as a single person its more difficult to picture being married and staying married if you are sufficiently disenchanted that you enture outside of the marriage.

 

Its hard to understand that someone could venture outside and yet not want to leave but its most often the case. So I think perhaps "lying" is too strong a term in many cases. It seems unfair to demonize the MP for getting into something that they didnt intend to lead to marriage in the first place. After all its not a normal dating relationship. Yes sometimes they contemplate leaving and marrying the AP, but the fact that they dont isnt always because they are lying. Its because they are torn. Maybe I am picking at straws but I think that is a whole different situation than the out and out lies. And we have had some horrific stories on here of people who have been lied to and manipulated in the worst possible ways.

Edited October 30, 2009 by jj33

[NoIDidn't]

I do understand that it would be easy for my MM at any given moment to resume his sex life with his wife. But he would not lie to me about it. Would he tell me about it without being asked though? That is a good question. Generally he brings the subject up by himself. If he stops doing that, who knows, I might get suspicious and ask.

 

(This isn't to or about jj, just generally about the situation she describes)

 

When they tell you about things without you asking, that could be a cover to control the conversation. Its how they build up the appearance of always sharing things with us, of making us trust them more. And this is true for everyone - OP and MP.

 

If we asked on our own, we might get that long silence while they look to the left thinking of a believable lie. And that long silence makes us suspicious. So I think they generally tell us things up front in the hopes that it keeps our curiosity at bay.

[silktricks]

im not sure its about the wife going anywhere or not. i think they lie because it hurts to much to admit all of the terrible thing theyve done.

I think this is partly true. It does hurt to admit the bad thng. But it's also untrue, as there is in many cases genuine fear that complete knowledge will be too much and their spouse will leave.

 

i find it sad that people who are betrayed by their number 1 person in life find it in their hearts to forgive but still are being lied to.

Maybe they aren't.

[aeh]

Until one is far away from the affair, the OW , the WS, and BS often dont see it for what it is. What has caused me the most grief regarding my H's infidelity is NOT THE INFIDELITY itself.

 

Its the lies he told to me during it. NOT lies about where he was going, NOT the lies about who he was with.

 

To keep the infidelity under the radar he went to great lengths to assure me we had the best marriage. That he was the happiest man in the world. He treated me well and convinced me I was his priority. If I had questions he answered them, if I was anxious he assured me. He showed me through words and actions that I was loved, desired, and cared for.

 

Had he just not snowed me so completely, had he left some gray area, had he left me some room to doubt the solidness of our marriage, had he simply created some distance and left me wondering.....

 

Maybe, just maybe...we could have addressed it or at the very least I wouldnt have had the rug pulled so completely from beneath me. He had me so convinced, now its too late. It isnt the cheating, it isnt the lies:

 

I do not want a partner capable of this kind of deception. OW should look closely because this kind of deception is typical but it takes a very special kind of as*hole to do it.

 

I have struggled a lot with this, too. However, as one of my best friend's was dealing with her H's affair the year before I was, I witnessed the opposite of that. Her H treated her horribly. It was for her, the icing on the cake, that he was able to not only be cheating on her but also treating her so badly, too. She considered it doubly bad.

 

When I discovered my H's A, I looked at it as such deception that he always treated me as such a cherished prize. I would from time to time jokingly ask if he had a girlfriend (because it would have been such a joke to consider such a far-fetched thing) if something came up about someone else we knew dealing with infidelity. Never would have occurred to me with the pedestal he put me on, how he was so loving in so many ways (although now I can see some ways we weren't being as loving as we could have been). But I have wrestled with this--would I have preferred for him to treat me as "less than" while he was out screwing around or be adored the way I always have been. I realize that my friend's H was probably justifying his behavior and his villification of his W was so that he could continue his A and not feel guilty about it--creating distance, starting fights, being critical, etc but which would be better? I'm not sure.

 

You're right--it is the ultimate deception, in many ways.

[fooled once]

I think its tricky. I think most people who have affairs are looking for relief from the problems in their marriage or are looking to fill in the gaps with regard to what is missing.

 

Sometimes what is missing either in general or during the fallow times in a marriage, or when they are questioning things in themselves even if they dont consciously face those thoughts.

 

I dont see anything inconsistent about the fact that someone could fall in love with the AP and yet not want to dissolve the marriage and everythign that it stands for.

 

Emotions arent as logical as we would like them to be. They are messy and confused and contradictory at times. if someone isnt looking to leave or for practical reasons or duty obligatoin whatever it may be truly beleives that they cant leave, then its the MP who is stuck in the limbo.

 

The AP if they fall in love with the MP is easily drawn into that web.

 

I know I used to wonder how can he want to be with anyone else if he is married? And how can he be so bonded with me and carry on with his marriage? It just didnt make sense to me.

 

But in retrospect, he was getting his needs met the same way you order from a chinese menu - one from column a and 2 from colulmn b.

 

And it was stressful for him. I know that. Im not saying he was a victim but it was stressful to live 2 lives in parallel.

 

Its something I think most people have a difficult time carrying on for an extended period of time even if they are very good at compartmentalizing.

 

But I think there is a fundamental flaw in the "he lied to me". Its never good to be waiting in the wings for someone to leave a marriage. Its such a big decision, that someone may believe at a certain point in time that they will leave and 2 days later decide no then yes then no...

 

Until someone is sure they wont know. And if they are in an affair that is not an exit affair then they are unlikley to be able to make a decision until they have time and space away from the AP to determine what they want. There are always exceptions to the rule but in general that seems to be the way things go because if they have both then there is no way to compare.

 

I know there are expections (such as OWoman) and there are MPs who out and out lie to keep the AP on the hook and in the relationship but I think in fairness that this is not as frequent as people want to believe.

 

I think as often that the AP wants to believe that leaving is a clear choice. But if it were a clear choice, the MP wouldnt be having an affair, they would have left.

 

As I have said on other threads, most people who have affairs arent shopping for a new spouse.

 

Very few people are cut out to have an affair and keep it on that level.

Its all too easy as the AP to think how could she/he not want to leave given the situation. In some ways I think the AP is often more naive and romantic than the MP (I know I was).

 

I dont mean this as a criticism but I think that if you are not an MP having an A, as a single person its more difficult to picture being married and staying married if you are sufficiently disenchanted that you enture outside of the marriage.

 

Its hard to understand that someone could venture outside and yet not want to leave but its most often the case. So I think perhaps "lying" is too strong a term in many cases. It seems unfair to demonize the MP for getting into something that they didnt intend to lead to marriage in the first place. After all its not a normal dating relationship. Yes sometimes they contemplate leaving and marrying the AP, but the fact that they dont isnt always because they are lying. Its because they are torn. Maybe I am picking at straws but I think that is a whole different situation than the out and out lies. And we have had some horrific stories on here of people who have been lied to and manipulated in the worst possible ways.

 

Very thought provoking post. The bolded parts really stood out to me.

 

I think there are various 'cheating' relationships. There is the serial cheater. There is the one who 'happened' upon a relationship such as co-workers who work closely together and an attraction grows. There are the ones where there IS something missing at home - whether it be sex (or lack of), medical issues which causes stress, child issues which cause stress and the married people just aren't 'connecting' like they use to. There are just a variety of reasons why a married person cheats.

 

In my thoughts, what is so hurtful is the married person who leads the OW/OM to believe that they will leave, but don't. Where they string along the OW/OM for months and in many cases years -- keeping them hooked all the while dangling "when I leave one day" in front of them.

 

There are affairs where both people know that the married person is never going to leave and the affair person is content to just be the OW/OM. There are even many here who have been involved for a very long time and know their place per say - they know they will never be more than the OW/OM.

 

But the ones who know damn well they aren't leaving the married yet make it seem like this person they are having the affair with is the sun, moon and stars and let the OW/OM think/plan a future with them .. that is just evil and uncalled for IMHO.

[fooled once]

Well it did for me. Once I was out, and I mean 100 % over the emotional affair. It was then that I was fully able to see just what a monster I had become involved with. It's funny how I look back now and say "What on earth was I thinking". I still live nextdoor to xmm and see him around and about all the time. Now I'm like "How could I ever have found anything about him attractive"? He was a big time player and real good lier. So glad that chapter in my life is closed for good. And yes.. most affairs are full of lies. It's not a relationship built on honestly in any way at all.

 

Mea:)

 

You nailed how I felt too. I felt so stupid for falling for the lies, the promises.

 

I knew he was lying about several things because I caught him in the lies (at the end of the relationship).

 

And 2sure

 

I do not want a partner capable of this kind of deception. OW should look closely because this kind of deception is typical but it takes a very special kind of as*hole to do it.

 

Exactly.

[Spark1111]

I think it is because it is such a strong fantasy for them and doubt if it is always intentional.

 

I doubt they enter into an affair conciously. They start as friends, then the attraction grows, then the intimacy. They start to confide problems in their lives with their spouse or their children or job, and whether they realize it or not.....have ttaken a million little baby steps over their boundaries.

 

Affairs, upon the light of day, or DDay, do "not just happen."

 

But they can feel like they did.

 

And having that rush of someone's flattery, undivided attention, and attraction can make a weak and vulnerable person say, "ah...this is what I have been missing....this is what I want forever."

 

Unfair? Hurtful? Absolutely!

 

But intentional? I think rarely.

 

Unless the cheater is a predator and usually, they are serial in preying upon vulnerable women.