NoIDidn't Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Wow, that was insulting. Shows real lack of empathy. That goes for you too, Samantha. Seriously? I don't see how it was insulting. I'm sorry you feel that way, but not sorry for makign a statement about the conflict I felt from the logic in your post. To claim that secrecy is really privacy IS denial. Please explain what makes it so insulting to you. The lack of empathy part is a stretch.
Author jennie-jennie Posted October 29, 2009 Author Posted October 29, 2009 Its okay to call it what it is. Dressing it up only makes it seem like you are trying to avoid the reality of what it is. In affairs, private zones ARE secret - not usually secret. Calling the secrecy in an affair privacy is like putting lipstick on a pig, IMO. I did not call the secrecy in an affair privacy. I said that "two people in a relationship share a private zone". Do you not agree that this is true for ALL romantic and sexual relationships? These private zones can have different characteristics. Some of them are not only private but also secret.
NoIDidn't Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 I did not call the secrecy in an affair privacy. I said that "two people in a relationship share a private zone". Do you not agree that this is true for ALL romantic and sexual relationships? These private zones can have different characteristics. Some of them are not only private but also secret. An affair is not "two people in a relationship". Its three or more, just that the others don't know about it. Its a secret. You are parsing words with this secret vs. private thing. Like I said, its okay to call it what it is. I'm not judging you for it. It is what it is.
NoIDidn't Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 I remember when I was dating my engaged ex. I remember us going to the beach every weekend, spending the night at his house frequently, and him going home with me when I had family events. Of course, none of those things were done in secret. But the fact that his fiance didn't know about it caused them to be a secret. One night at his house, his girlfriend (not yet fiance) surprised him by using her key to get in. We were lying in the bed! He heard the key in the lock and jumped out of the bed. Before he ran to the door, he told me to hide. WTF?! I refused. I don't know what he told her, but she left within five minutes. See, nothing we did was a secret to us. Sure, I could call it privacy all I want. It could be said that he convinced his GF to leave so that we could return to our privacy. But that would be lying and denial. It was a secret that he had another woman in his bed and he wanted to keep it that way. I can claim that I was out in the open that nothing we did was secret, but since I didn't come out of that bedroom (I was clothed, mind you) I aided him in keeping his secret. Secrecy and privacy are just not the same thing. No offense, but this muddling of terms is the first lesson in the deception handbook.
Author jennie-jennie Posted October 29, 2009 Author Posted October 29, 2009 An affair is not "two people in a relationship". Its three or more, just that the others don't know about it. Its a secret. You are parsing words with this secret vs. private thing. Like I said, its okay to call it what it is. I'm not judging you for it. It is what it is. In this context private means that you share a space that is only for you two. Secret means that it is hidden to the world. Your view is apparently that there are three or more people in a relationship. My view is that my MM is in two relationships. I know my view is backed up by at least some therapists. Prior to our relationship my MM had quite a large space in his mind which was private and not shared with his wife. He shares this space with me to a much greater extent. These are not things he kept secret to his wife, but preferred to keep in a private space. There is a difference between privacy and secrecy, whether you admit it or not.
Samantha0905 Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Wow, that was insulting. Shows real lack of empathy. That goes for you too, Samantha. Not a lack of empathy -- simply pointing out sometimes a person can talk in all sorts of circles to convince themselves what they are doing is something other than what it is. I find that to be true in some of your postings. I just like to call a spade a spade. And I in no way lack empathy for you. I don't know you personally. If I put myself in your shoes, I don't think I would share your viewpoints. I certainly don't wish you ill-will. I'm just trying to comment on what is being discussed. And there's no doubt your married man is in two relationships. The one with you is secretive in that he keeps it from his wife.
Samantha0905 Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 In this context private means that you share a space that is only for you two. Secret means that it is hidden to the world. It's interesting how you separate him from his wife and almost deny her existence. She's there and he's keeping a secret from her. She's in the world.
Author jennie-jennie Posted October 29, 2009 Author Posted October 29, 2009 Secrecy and privacy are just not the same thing. Do you invite people into your and your husband's bedroom just because your relationship is not secret? I think not. Thus privacy and secrecy are two different things. But it seems we suddenly agree on that?
NoIDidn't Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 In this context private means that you share a space that is only for you two. Secret means that it is hidden to the world. Your view is apparently that there are three or more people in a relationship. My view is that my MM is in two relationships. I know my view is backed up by at least some therapists. Prior to our relationship my MM had quite a large space in his mind which was private and not shared with his wife. He shares this space with me to a much greater extent. These are not things he kept secret to his wife, but preferred to keep in a private space. There is a difference between privacy and secrecy, whether you admit it or not. More parsing of the words. I am not the one with the problem in seeing the difference between the two. Now you want to parse the concept of relationships too? I'm leaving this thread for a bit because you aren't making much sense to me.
NoIDidn't Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Do you invite people into your and your husband's bedroom just because your relationship is not secret? I think not. Thus privacy and secrecy are two different things. But it seems we suddenly agree on that? When my previous post hit, I saw this above it. It seems now that your logic is running full circle. I have no idea of what you are trying to say - please explain it. Are you asking me if I invite other men into the bedroom (presumably for sex) that I share with my H just because our relationship is not secret?! If I do it when my H is not home for the purpose of him not finding out, then yes its being secretive and not private. You aren't making any sense. I think I need the decoder.
2sure Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Prior to our relationship my MM had quite a large space in his mind which was private and not shared with his wife. He shares this space with me to a much greater extent. These are not things he kept secret to his wife, but preferred to keep in a private space. There is a difference between privacy and secrecy, whether you admit it or not. Jennie - by your own very articulate definition you describe the compartmentalization necessary for a MP to have an affair. People who compartmentalize their lives have less trouble with affairs than those who do not. As I said before, I compartment , a part kept private and separate from the rest of your life and the world. A secret. If it were in the open it wouldnt be the same, part of the pleasure is in this very secrecy for MP.
Author jennie-jennie Posted October 29, 2009 Author Posted October 29, 2009 When my previous post hit, I saw this above it. It seems now that your logic is running full circle. I have no idea of what you are trying to say - please explain it. Are you asking me if I invite other men into the bedroom (presumably for sex) that I share with my H just because our relationship is not secret?! If I do it when my H is not home for the purpose of him not finding out, then yes its being secretive and not private. You aren't making any sense. I think I need the decoder. I am just saying that something can be both private and secret. This whole discussion started because you claimed that I called the secrecy in an affair privacy, when I was in fact saying that the private zone shared by two people in a relationship can be not only private, but also secret. You and your husband share a private zone, I am sure, a zone which is only his and yours, a bond between you two, which is not hidden. Therefore your activity in your bedroom is private but not secret. If you had a lover, he and you would also share a private zone, a zone which would be only his and yours, a bond between you two, but it would be hidden, at least to some degree. Your sexual activity with him would be both private and secret. I wonder if it is because you put more importance to the characteristic of secrecy than I do that we have so much trouble understanding each other. You seem to put it at the core of the EMR. I see my relationship with my MM just like any other relationship with a man I have had. Unfortunately he also has yet another relationship, the one with his wife. Because of that he keeps our relationship secret.
Author jennie-jennie Posted October 29, 2009 Author Posted October 29, 2009 Jennie - by your own very articulate definition you describe the compartmentalization necessary for a MP to have an affair. People who compartmentalize their lives have less trouble with affairs than those who do not. As I said before, I compartment , a part kept private and separate from the rest of your life and the world. A secret. If it were in the open it wouldnt be the same, part of the pleasure is in this very secrecy for MP. My MM's wife is a very traditional woman. Because of this MM has been afraid to share with her his thoughts about religion and sex and some experiences from his past which he was ashamed of and so on. I don't think this is compartmentalization. This is deciding how much of yourself you are going to reveal to another person.
Untouchable_Fire Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 Not a lack of empathy -- simply pointing out sometimes a person can talk in all sorts of circles to convince themselves what they are doing is something other than what it is. I find that to be true in some of your postings. I just like to call a spade a spade. And I in no way lack empathy for you. I don't know you personally. If I put myself in your shoes, I don't think I would share your viewpoints. I certainly don't wish you ill-will. I'm just trying to comment on what is being discussed. And there's no doubt your married man is in two relationships. The one with you is secretive in that he keeps it from his wife. I agree, she is running on some very circular logic. She is compartmentalizing a huge chunk of this. It's interesting how you separate him from his wife and almost deny her existence. She's there and he's keeping a secret from her. She's in the world. I had not noticed this, but went back and read some threads... it's very true.
Author jennie-jennie Posted October 29, 2009 Author Posted October 29, 2009 It's interesting how you separate him from his wife and almost deny her existence. She's there and he's keeping a secret from her. She's in the world. I am not the one having a relationship with her. He is.
Untouchable_Fire Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 I am not the one having a relationship with her. He is. You do have a relationship with her. You just refuse to acknowledge it. What you do affects her life in a huge way. Just because you don't do it directly does not mean you are not the cause.
Author jennie-jennie Posted October 29, 2009 Author Posted October 29, 2009 (edited) You do have a relationship with her. You just refuse to acknowledge it. What you do affects her life in a huge way. Just because you don't do it directly does not mean you are not the cause. My actions have an effect on her, but I am not in a relationship with her. I don't like threesomes with another woman. BTDT Could we please get back to the subject now: Secrecy - a turn-on or a turn-off? Edited October 29, 2009 by jennie-jennie
Untouchable_Fire Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 My actions have an effect on her, but I am not in a relationship with her. I don't like threesomes with another woman. BTDT Could we please get back to the subject now: Secrecy - a turn-on or a turn-off? Does that mean you like threesomes with other guys? I think you explained your position on secrecy very well. You believe that it's a turn off. I believe that the secrecy creates something that turns you on. You don't. Impasse.
Author jennie-jennie Posted October 29, 2009 Author Posted October 29, 2009 Does that mean you like threesomes with other guys? I never did get around to trying that in my wild youth. Kind of regret that.
georgia girl Posted October 29, 2009 Posted October 29, 2009 JMHO, but in reading these posts, it seems like those who have the affair in the perspective that it is a temporary, fun thing also see the secrecy as adding to the spark - contributing to that sense of drama and intensity. For those who have been in longer term relationships, it seems that the secrecy is now more of a source for pain or is minimalized because the secrecy is a marker of the relationship's status. For my friend, she is among the latter group. I could see her being in the former group when her affair just started (didn't know about it then, but it fits as she consistently tells me that she "never meant to fall in love but he's the perfect man"). But now that she's serious, I see the pain that the secrecy and the entire affair is now bringing her. Like another post by Fallen Angel, she sees herself in love with a man who she would commit wholeheartedly to. And he has placed her firmly second. She's not strong enough to break away though she cognitively understands that its the best thing for her. For those who see the secrecy as part of the thrill, I would think you are in less danger of being hurt. For those that don't, I think it exposes a vulnerability that many would rather not have to deal with.
someonesangel Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 I don't know where I sit with this question. Secrecy certainly did not add to the " high" in fact it was a problem for both of us. I also had it much better than most OW. We went out in public all the time, even intimate and he knew my friends, I knew his best friend. He took calls from his girls while with me and never never made me feel hidden. In fact I once said something about going with him to a haircut and said "are you sure it isn't a problem" and he stopped and said " Do you ever feel hidden". Wasn't what I meant, but I appreciated the fact that he thought I may and was concerned. I now find myself "hidden" and not even in the affair really, and I don't like it at all - and it will stop tonight. I hate knowing we are talking and have been for weeks, even while fairly innocent we have kissed a couple times at one event and it truly is disturbing me on a much greater scale than I had imagined. All 3 have been threw so much and I can't have any contact in any capacity as long as his wife remains in the dark. That is the final talk tonight, he isn't going to be a fan but it is where I am at. I realized FA letter would be a little different coming from me and would be 1. I am tired of everything I say regarding choices are made to look as they are only my opinion because I am involved. Untrue and extremly frustrating as my opinion would most likely be the exact same if she was my best friend. 2. I am tired of the "contact" being primarily on my shoulders while he refuses to look at why he is also still in contact. 3. I am tired of loving a man who while may love me with all his heart has put me in a box because it is inconvenient "timing" and left me with said box. 4. I am tired of trying to explain that he is still not being honest and until he is - His marriage and his IC is futile. Most of all, I am tired of being tired.
NoIDidn't Posted November 3, 2009 Posted November 3, 2009 Might not this whole secrecy issue be gender-motivated? I agree with (the poster, whom I must not name) that for the MM an affair was a "selfish luxury", but I never made any secret of any of them. If the MM's that I was f**king wanted secrecy, that was their business, and I would comply, in order for the sex to continue, but I certainly did not go out of my way to "sneak", around. Could it be that WW's are more sensitive to guilt, or could they be more interested in the drama? In these cases, maybe the secrecy would add more zest, IDK. Personally I always though that "sneaking around", was for the childish and /or feeble-minded. I, was a dishonest adult, but I was an intelligent, dishonest adult. Secrecy is beneath me. I know you meant "MW" in this, but it got me wondering. Were you a single OM as well as a MM in some of these affairs? I don't think that the OPs really have to worry about being secretive, its the MP that does that because they are the ones actually keeping the A from a person that they share a home with. JMO
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