losing respect because I am nice

[thegreatmoose]

I don't really let them push me around

first favor is free, but for example this girl, I wouldn't do her anymore favors

 

I always thought people are nice until proven otherwise, I'm thinking about changing that rule

 

and yeah ok I won't do anyone any favors, thanks everyone for the advices

See my post. Make sure the fist favor is small. If you're doing a 2 hour favor and they are mean about it, walk out in the middle.

 

There is a middle ground to all of this.

[betamanlet]

OP, for these women, see if they'd do any favors for you. Say to drive you to an appointment, to the airport. If they say no, you have your answer.

[CaliGuy]

I feel as if being nice comes at the cost of respect, how exactly should I behave? should I intentionnaly avoid doingfavors when being asked? how does that work?

 

Your assignment today is to go buy the book (Amazon has it) called "No More Mr Nice Guy" (Glover).

 

In that book you will find all the answers to your questions and stop being the kind of nice guy that people take advantage of and women leave. It's called being a doormat and while you may not be a doormat in all aspects of your life, it would still benefit you greatly to read this book.

 

And incidentally, most doormat nice guys don't even realize they are doormat nice guys. So any male out there who hasn't the first clue why people take advantage of him or why he has a lot of female friends but is single, READ THIS BOOK.

 

Also, one question. What's your main motivation for helping people? Is it get something from them (praise, love, respect) or is just because you want to and nothing more?

[BlueHarvest]

They most certainly are rude. He is also a pushover by continuing to help them when they are rude.

 

Here is my ideal strategy becuase I like to help people too. Help them with something small first. If they don't appreciate it, never ever help that person again. If they do appreciate it, then start helping them with bigger things.

 

thegreatmoose's advice is really the only advice I'm going to advocate or comment on in this thread. The rest of you are hypocritical pieces of ****. Sorry to be blunt.

 

Skump weren't you saying something about only doing favors for girls if you are making out with them? Well that's pretty much the same situation just reversed. In this case your ONLY doing favors for women who are doing you a "favor" (in this case sex/making out). You are no better then 627 who is doing favors unconditionally.

 

Just because you happen to be making out with them or having sex with them doesn't validate or make your method any better. In the end, you do favors because you want to, without any real expectations of it being returned. Do you want that favor acknowledged or returned...Sure! Who the hell wouldn't? Of course 627 wants his achievments/favors acknowledged...that's human nature.

 

But he has to learn that not expecting them is different from wanting them. I sense this thread is going to come to nothing more then another "nice guy/jerk guy" thread so I'm outta here.

 

OH, and Carhill. Normally I agree with your advice, but in this case I'm not going to. Glover is a farce. Period. He only wrote that book AFTER he HIMSELF went to therapy because he was afraid of his second marriage ending in divorce due to his own passive-aggressive nature. Yea, that's like me going to a comedian Kevin James and asking him for advice on how to lose weight.

 

Glover also believes that the reason for today's "nice guy proliferation" was due to changes in society since the 1950's and that many men who are nice guys were raised by abusive, alcoholic fathers and decided to never be like their fathers and instead "overshot the mark" so to speak. Or a lack of a father figure in the their life led to them being raised by their mother's perspective of men.

 

There are MANY studies about the "nice guy problem". I looked into it and did a little research. For example, altruism is considered (by itself) a very virtuous trait. But when used to describe someone's personality (especially a guy's) is usually denoted as having a negative connotation...UNLESS that guy is acting in a agentic manner. (Meening his altruisum isn't self-expressed, it's him expressing others motives through him).

 

What it boils down to is that the "social world" is cyclical...we know neither which is the cause or which is the effect. Do "nice guys" cause people to take advantage of them? Or do people who take advantage of others cause nice guys to form? These questions have been asked for centuries. The structure of human social expression is so complex there is no right answer.

 

Wow, no idea how my "quick reply" turned into that....

[CaliGuy]

thegreatmoose's advice is really the only advice I'm going to advocate or comment on in this thread. The rest of you are hypocritical pieces of ****. Sorry to be blunt.

 

LOL

 

Skump weren't you saying something about only doing favors for girls if you are making out with them? Well that's pretty much the same situation just reversed. In this case your ONLY doing favors for women who are doing you a "favor" (in this case sex/making out). You are no better then 627 who is doing favors unconditionally.

 

Covert contracts. He's doing nice things to get something from the girls. If they weren't giving him sex or attention he wouldn't be doing them favors.

 

Just because you happen to be making out with them or having sex with them doesn't validate or make your method any better. In the end, you do favors because you want to, without any real expectations of it being returned. Do you want that favor acknowledged or returned...Sure! Who the hell wouldn't? Of course 627 wants his achievments/favors acknowledged...that's human nature.

 

This is how a confident, self-assured MAN acts. He does good things for people because he wants to, not because he expects something in return.

 

But he has to learn that not expecting them is different from wanting them. I sense this thread is going to come to nothing more then another "nice guy/jerk guy" thread so I'm outta here.

 

OH, and Carhill. Normally I agree with your advice, but in this case I'm not going to. Glover is a farce. Period. He only wrote that book AFTER he HIMSELF went to therapy because he was afraid of his second marriage ending in divorce due to his own passive-aggressive nature. Yea, that's like me going to a comedian Kevin James and asking him for advice on how to lose weight.

 

Actually, it's not uncommon for Counselors to see other Counselors when they have a problem. It's very difficult to view your own self objectively many times. This is why people are insecure, passive/aggressive and, without help, never get these problems fixed. Glover has a Doctorate. He took the information that he learned, that helped him and compiled it together to help insecure, doormat nice guys realize what they are doing wrong.

 

You don't have to experience hard times in your life to learn and to teach others, but sometimes it sure helps. 99% of the people on LS giving advice have gone through tough breakups themselves. Nothing replaces hard-core experience.

 

Glover also believes that the reason for today's "nice guy proliferation" was due to changes in society since the 1950's and that many men who are nice guys were raised by abusive, alcoholic fathers and decided to never be like their fathers and instead "overshot the mark" so to speak. Or a lack of a father figure in the their life led to them being raised by their mother's perspective of men.

 

Yes this is what he believes and there are many studies that show not having a strong father figure in a boys life leads him to be raised by his mother, who teaches him how an older lady wants to be treated. There's no way on God's green Earth that a woman can teach a boy how to be a man. And that's exactly what's been happening in many homes. Poor Father or No Father, many men (myself included) did not have a strong male role-model to learn how to be a man from. Many of us had to learn on our own.

 

And I agree with Glover on his assessment on single mothers raising boys. I experienced exactly what Glover had talked about with "pleasing mom" yet not going through the experience of having a father teach you how to be a man. I had to learn on my own and it was a VERY trying experience for me.

 

There are MANY studies about the "nice guy problem". I looked into it and did a little research. For example, altruism is considered (by itself) a very virtuous trait. But when used to describe someone's personality (especially a guy's) is usually denoted as having a negative connotation...UNLESS that guy is acting in a agentic manner. (Meening his altruisum isn't self-expressed, it's him expressing others motives through him).

 

The problem with declaring someone a "nice guy" is that there are true NICE men (they are called BALANCED men) and then there are DOOR MAT nice guys who, as you well know from Glover's research, are passive/aggressive, people-pleasing jerks who seek nothing more than to get their own needs met by being overly nice. They also have a tendency to let people push them around for fear of being rejected by standing up for themselves.

 

Look around at all the "Nice guys finish last" threads and you'll see this to be true.

 

What it boils down to is that the "social world" is cyclical...we know neither which is the cause or which is the effect. Do "nice guys" cause people to take advantage of them? Or do people who take advantage of others cause nice guys to form? These questions have been asked for centuries. The structure of human social expression is so complex there is no right answer.

 

Door mat nice guys manipulate people through their nice guy actions. People sometimes feel obligated to oblige because they don't want to insult the door mat nice guy. I can see this going round and round.

 

Bottom line: If you want to do something nice, before you do it just simply ask yourself WHY you are doing it. Are you doing it for yourself, because you want to do it or deep down are you doing it because you want someone's love/attention/approval?

 

The answer to that question can help easily discern between door mat nice guys and good men.

[627]

mostly I was brainwashed by the christian bible to do nice stuff

15 years of catholic school and the "never turn down a request" quote(it is said somewhere in the bible) really took its toll on me

 

which is partly why I became an atheist and started hating religion, it really left me with permanent scars and a ruined childhood, but still I have acquired some habbits that I find really hard let go off

this being one of them:confused: and again jesus was proven wrong because BEING GOOD NEVER PAYS

[stace79]

my expectations go as follows: a thank you+ they remember it happening

just a thank you

why are people like that? sheesh

I don't expect attraction or anything, I don't care if they date or dating someone else, I'm just saying that it seems being nice never sticks to anyone's brain, not even for a split moment

 

Okay, I am betting you're in high school or college.. so you're around late teens/early 20s?

 

It's one thing to offer someone who's already a friend assistance with homework once in awhile or advice on a guy they're dating. But it sounds like you are just going around offering favors to any girl you think is halfway attractive but you may not even know that well. Yes, that is a turn off -- it seems from what you've written here somewhat desperate and women will pick up on that.

 

There is a difference from just being nice or helpful, and being a doormat or trying to schmooze every person you meet.

 

My good friend (a guy) used to be highly helpful because he was a strong guy and good with tools, but he'd help out people because he already knew them or their family well. He wouldn't just meet some random chick and offer to come fix her fridge the next day, ya know?

[CaliGuy]

mostly I was brainwashed by the christian bible to do nice stuff

15 years of catholic school and the "never turn down a request" quote(it is said somewhere in the bible) really took its toll on me

 

which is partly why I became an atheist and started hating religion, it really left me with permanent scars and a ruined childhood, but still I have acquired some habbits that I find really hard let go off

this being one of them:confused: and again jesus was proven wrong because BEING GOOD NEVER PAYS

 

Jesus wasn't a doormat. The doormat behaviors that religion teaches are not in line with what Christ taught.

 

Do you not remember what He did in the Temple? Knocking over vendor tables and chasing them from the Temple?? Do you not remember him yelling at Peter "Get behind me Satan!" Do you not remember his instructions to the disciplines if they give the word to people who will not hear it?! "Wipe the dust off your sandals as you leave!" He stood up to every doubter and non-believer -- to every Pharisee and every Scribe.

 

Being a doormat is not what Christ taught. It's what RELIGION teaches -- a spin on "Turn the other cheek" -- taken entirely out of context. Sorry you were disappointed in your faith, but it's religion that taught you wrong, not Christ.

Edited October 28, 2009 by CaliGuy

[627]

Jesus wasn't a doormat. The doormat behaviors that religion teaches are not in line with what Christ taught.

 

Do you not remember what He did in the Temple? Knocking over vendor tables and chasing them from the Temple?? Do you not remember him yelling at Peter "Get behind me Satan!" Do you not remember his instructions to the disciplines if they give the word to people who will not hear it?! "Wipe the dust off your sandals as you leave!" He stood up to every doubter and non-believer -- to every Pharisee and every Scribe.

 

Being a doormat is not what Christ taught. It's what RELIGION teaches -- a spin on "Turn the other cheek" -- taken entirely out of context. Sorry you were disappointed in your faith, but it's religion that taught you wrong, not Christ.

Christian religion in the end is an interpretation of christ

I know he said all these things but he also said that we should not turn down a request, we should turn the other cheek when offended etc... plus don't get me started on the history of the gospels and how most were banned and others were edited in translation

basicly we know nothing of christ, and what we know could be all wrong

but seriously, you follow the bible and the christianity pattern of living, and you got yourself a very sad and psycologicly messed up world

 

desiring women, thinking about sex is a sin in the middle east where I am from, all single women(christian and muslims) are virgins, no sex before marriage ever, every christian believes anyone who doesn't believe in christ cannot go to heaven, they all want to convert you, our school uniforms are ugly, and dating pretty much sucks cause you know there is nothign in it for you at the end of the line

 

that's christ's teaching in full effect(when it comes to dating) and I am forced to live in the middle of it

 

regular physical contact like holding hands is a big deal, again, I hate religion, but getting out of topic here

[betamanlet]

Jesus wasn't a doormat. The doormat behaviors that religion teaches are not in line with what Christ taught.

 

Do you not remember what He did in the Temple? Knocking over vendor tables and chasing them from the Temple?? Do you not remember him yelling at Peter "Get behind me Satan!" Do you not remember his instructions to the disciplines if they give the word to people who will not hear it?! "Wipe the dust off your sandals as you leave!" He stood up to every doubter and non-believer -- to every Pharisee and every Scribe.

 

Being a doormat is not what Christ taught. It's what RELIGION teaches -- a spin on "Turn the other cheek" -- taken entirely out of context. Sorry you were disappointed in your faith, but it's religion that taught you wrong, not Christ.

 

 

Gotta admit, I don't know much about religion, but it seems Jesus was a doormat. He knew he was going to be betrayed, and he did nothing about it, and said to love those who hate you. There's nothing more doormatish than that. Imagine telling Jews in Auschwitz to love the Waffen SS..

[thegreatmoose]

Covert contracts. He's doing nice things to get something from the girls. If they weren't giving him sex or attention he wouldn't be doing them favors.

Doing a nice thing and expecting a lot in return is a covert contract and is not a good thing at all. In particular, doing a woman a favor and expecting a date in return is not good at all.

 

That said, it is all too frequent that someone does something nice for someone and they falsely assume it is a covert contract of some type.

 

Being a doormat is not good, but taking advanatge of doormats is disgusting.

[627]

Gotta admit, I don't know much about religion, but it seems Jesus was a doormat. He knew he was going to be betrayed, and he did nothing about it, and said to love those who hate you. There's nothing more doormatish than that. Imagine telling Jews in Auschwitz to love the Waffen SS..

well yeah exactly

it(the teachings) is poetic, but it is no logical, practical or fair and it does not make the world a better place

except maybe if we are encouraging slavery

[CaliGuy]

Christian religion in the end is an interpretation of christ

I know he said all these things but he also said that we should not turn down a request, we should turn the other cheek when offended etc...

 

Read your Bible. He isn't talking about letting people take advantage of you. He is speaking purely from the standpoint of people who are REALLY in need. As for turning the other cheek, it doesn't mean don't stand up for yourself. Read more.

 

Also, the Bible is clear throughout that a lazy man will go hungry.

 

plus don't get me started on the history of the gospels and how most were banned and others were edited in translation

basicly we know nothing of christ, and what we know could be all wrong

but seriously, you follow the bible and the christianity pattern of living, and you got yourself a very sad and psycologicly messed up world

 

I disagree. I am in no way anyone's doormat. If anything, Christianity built up my confidence and self-respect.

 

desiring women, thinking about sex is a sin

 

We're also not perfect and live in a sinful world. God doesn't expect perfection in people. Christ was the only perfect man in this world (fully God, fully man). It is impossible for mankind to be perfect.

 

in the middle east where I am from, all single women(christian and muslims) are virgins, no sex before marriage ever,

 

For some reason I highly doubt that ALL are...

 

every christian believes anyone who doesn't believe in christ cannot go to heaven, they all want to convert you, our school uniforms are ugly, and dating pretty much sucks cause you know there is nothign in it for you at the end of the line

 

Being a Christian means you belive in Christ, that He died for your sins and that He was raised on the third day. It doesn't say anywhere that you should be a doormat, that you should let people run over you and take advantage of you.

 

that's christ's teaching in full effect(when it comes to dating) and I am forced to live in the middle of it

 

There's a solid reason behind no sex before marriage.

 

Gotta admit, I don't know much about religion, but it seems Jesus was a doormat.

 

Well at least you admit your ignorance about Christ. Read the New Testament and tell me if you still believe He was a doormat.

 

He knew he was going to be betrayed, and he did nothing about it,

 

God was tired of animal sacrifices for sins. They did not forgive sin, but cover over it (like a band-aid). God needed something more to forgive Sin. Something permanent. Not a band-aid. It was His desire to send His Son to pay the price for our Sins. Jesus could have easily walked away from mankind -- and we'd be in much worse shape than we are now.

 

and said to love those who hate you.

 

Amazing concept that few people truly understand.

 

There's nothing more doormatish than that. Imagine telling Jews in Auschwitz to love the Waffen SS..

 

Imagine if EVERYONE, not just a certain group of people, understood the concept of love and tolerance....there would have never been an Auschwitz.

 

Doing a nice thing and expecting a lot in return is a covert contract and is not a good thing at all. In particular, doing a woman a favor and expecting a date in return is not good at all.

 

That said, it is all too frequent that someone does something nice for someone and they falsely assume it is a covert contract of some type.

 

Being a doormat is not good, but taking advanatge of doormats is disgusting.

 

People often don't realize they are taking advantage of a doormat because by definition, a covert contract is a contract whereby the doormat is doing since nice HOPING for something in return but NOT TELLING the person that is the agreement they are binded by.

 

It's quite easy to see why doormats get taken advantage of and how people can knowingly or not knowingly do so...

[627]

For some reason I highly doubt that ALL are...

to me all means 95% and above

5% in probability being the minimum alpha value below which somethign is not considered

just as I say all people follow the religions of their parents and all men love women

yet there are still homosexuals and converties (erm...both things beign unrelated of course)

 

your definition of jesus is different than that of the crazy nuns who have been teaching me... this is basicly the problem with the bible, it is too small, written in a 2000 year ago society and there was no one around to ask the intelligent tricky questions

for me, that interpretation is what brainwashed my head, but anyway I will change, and alot of my personnality has changed in the past 3 years to the better

[betamanlet]

Read your Bible. He isn't talking about letting people take advantage of you. He is speaking purely from the standpoint of people who are REALLY in need. As for turning the other cheek, it doesn't mean don't stand up for yourself. Read more.

 

Also, the Bible is clear throughout that a lazy man will go hungry.

 

 

 

I disagree. I am in no way anyone's doormat. If anything, Christianity built up my confidence and self-respect.

 

 

 

We're also not perfect and live in a sinful world. God doesn't expect perfection in people. Christ was the only perfect man in this world (fully God, fully man). It is impossible for mankind to be perfect.

 

 

 

For some reason I highly doubt that ALL are...

 

 

 

Being a Christian means you belive in Christ, that He died for your sins and that He was raised on the third day. It doesn't say anywhere that you should be a doormat, that you should let people run over you and take advantage of you.

 

 

 

There's a solid reason behind no sex before marriage.

 

 

 

Well at least you admit your ignorance about Christ. Read the New Testament and tell me if you still believe He was a doormat.

 

 

 

God was tired of animal sacrifices for sins. They did not forgive sin, but cover over it (like a band-aid). God needed something more to forgive Sin. Something permanent. Not a band-aid. It was His desire to send His Son to pay the price for our Sins. Jesus could have easily walked away from mankind -- and we'd be in much worse shape than we are now.

 

 

 

Amazing concept that few people truly understand.

 

 

 

Imagine if EVERYONE, not just a certain group of people, understood the concept of love and tolerance....there would have never been an Auschwitz.

 

 

 

People often don't realize they are taking advantage of a doormat because by definition, a covert contract is a contract whereby the doormat is doing since nice HOPING for something in return but NOT TELLING the person that is the agreement they are binded by.

 

It's quite easy to see why doormats get taken advantage of and how people can knowingly or not knowingly do so...

 

 

 

As a demonstration of this love and tolerance, could you please explain to us what happens to those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior?

 

How is that "love and tolerance"?

[627]

As a demonstration of this love and tolerance, could you please explain to us what happens to those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior?

 

How is that "love and tolerance"?

he is going to say that this is not what christ asked for

I know cause 3 years ago I'd be arguing on his side

do we get in trouble with mods if we go out of topic?

[CaliGuy]

your definition of jesus is different than that of the crazy nuns who have been teaching me...

 

That's because I go by what the NT says, not what a "religion" says. Religion = man made traditions. You can be a Christian and NOT religious.

 

this is basicly the problem with the bible, it is too small, written in a 2000 year ago society and there was no one around to ask the intelligent tricky questions

for me, that interpretation is what brainwashed my head, but anyway I will change, and alot of my personnality has changed in the past 3 years to the better

 

Meh, it takes much more faith to believe we're all here by accident...

 

As a demonstration of this love and tolerance, could you please explain to us what happens to those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their lord and savior?

 

How is that "love and tolerance"?

 

You're given a choice. It's your choice and always has been.

 

he is going to say that this is not what christ asked for

I know cause 3 years ago I'd be arguing on his side

do we get in trouble with mods if we go out of topic?

 

Yeah, getting way off topic. I'm not here to debate or defend my faith. I'm certainly not perfect nor have ever claimed to be. I suffer from the same faults and desires as everyone else....

 

Cheers.

Edited October 28, 2009 by CaliGuy

[thegreatmoose]

People often don't realize they are taking advantage of a doormat because by definition, a covert contract is a contract whereby the doormat is doing since nice HOPING for something in return but NOT TELLING the person that is the agreement they are binded by.

 

It's quite easy to see why doormats get taken advantage of and how people can knowingly or not knowingly do so...

Thats's true some of the time. You can also say many doormats don't know they are doormats.

 

The whole point is there are too many doormats and too many people willing to take advantage of them. In many cases both the doormat and the other person take advantage of each other to some degree. Nobody wins and it ends with resentment all around. I just wish people would be nicer to each other rather than constantly taking advantage of each other.

Edited October 28, 2009 by thegreatmoose

[627]

Thats's true some of the time. You can also say many doormats don't know they are doormats.

 

The whole point is there are too many doormats and too many people willing to take advantage of them. In many cases both the doormat and the other person take advantage of each other to some degree. Nobody wins and it ends with resentment all around. I just wish people would be nicer to each other rather than constantly taking advantage of each other.

ok I grasped the concept of covert contracts and the doormat thing

so next time before doign anything, I will figure out why I am doing what I am about to do, and I will state what I want and if there is nothing on the other end I'll ignore the whole thing

next time someone nags I'll be straightforward about it or just quit the favor halfway

[BG1985]

Just quit being so available to people. Quick question. Do you help guys in need as well, or do you concentrate on girls? I'm sure I already know the answer but I'm very curious to know.

[CaliGuy]

ok I grasped the concept of covert contracts and the doormat thing

so next time before doign anything, I will figure out why I am doing what I am about to do, and I will state what I want and if there is nothing on the other end I'll ignore the whole thing

next time someone nags I'll be straightforward about it or just quit the favor halfway

 

Just read "No More Mr Nice Guy" because everything that is being explained in this thread is detailed in the book.

 

Can't hurt -- and it will be the best $10.00 you ever spent.

[Vertex]

Meh, it takes much more faith to believe we're all here by accident...

 

You'd be right, but just wanted to throw the notion out there that an atheist would not say we are here by accident either.

 

 

On topic though, what is it about that book you like the most?

Edited October 29, 2009 by Vertex

[627]

Just quit being so available to people. Quick question. Do you help guys in need as well, or do you concentrate on girls? I'm sure I already know the answer but I'm very curious to know.

 

Actualy I do help guys also, but guys are easy to just ask for a favor back again...I don't have a problem telling a guy "hey you owe me a beer for formatting your PC" what the hell would I say to an ungrateful woman? about the book, it was good in analysing the nice guy personnality, and I was able to relate, but as far as advices went, it can be summed up by one sentence:"put your needs first"

[CaliGuy]

You'd be right, but just wanted to throw the notion out there that an atheist would not say we are here by accident either.

 

I still say that it takes more faith to believe that no ONE had a hand in everything you see today. Sit on top of a Mountain during the Wintertime and you'll understand what I mean.

 

On topic though, what is it about that book you like the most?

 

It's a hard core smack in the face that all "door mat" nice guys need. It helps them see their behavior from the outside in and gives them exercises to break the habits that lead to door mat behavior.

 

In short, it shows guys how to be calm, confident and self-assured MEN. Not boys. Not jerks. Not nice guys.

 

The kind of men that women LOVE and ADMIRE

[CaliGuy]

about the book, it was good in analysing the nice guy personnality, and I was able to relate, but as far as advices went, it can be summed up by one sentence:"put your needs first"

 

Let me put it to you this way: Until you know how to get your own needs met you will NEVER understand how to meet the needs of others, properly.

 

Think of it this way. You have a bucket. In this bucket goes love. If you are constantly giving from this bucket to others, it will eventually become empty and you'll have nothing left to give.

 

But -- If you fill your bucket with love/respect for yourself until it overflows THEN and ONLY then will you understand truly how to love and respect OTHERS.

 

Cheers.