Developing intimacy and passion......

[Samantha0905]

interesting parallels. i am one of 9 kids, all adults. i call it organized chaos when we get together , and that is often. we were raised to be happy... but also to pretend. i don't pretend anymore. i state my honesty without hurt feelings for others. they appreciate it as it simplifies things. it's not always what they want to hear - but it's what they need to know. i don't expect anyone to "fix" my situations for me - it is what it is and i'm willing to be honest and forthcoming. as far as habit - they always try to convince me otherwise on how I feel, i correct them. my answers are firm.

 

such as:

hey 2sunny, want to go to this movie?

ummmm, no thank you.

you will love it, please go!

i said no thanks.

 

mind you this used to be a back and forth thing about everything with them. it was enough to drive anyone bonkers. take my word for my word - please.

 

i had to sit them down and tell them that when i answered - to take that as my FINAL answer. big family dynamics are odd, i had to find my boundary that worked for me and stick to it. now, in the past few years, they don't play those little manipulative games with me anymore and i don't waste my energy restating my viewpoint. it just makes life simple to deal this way - for me.

 

That is interesting. I'm the youngest. Where do you fall? Not using it as an excuse at all, but growing up in a "tribe" -- :-D -- does create interesting family dynamics.

 

We're real close, but I understand what you mean. It's almost like when I felt like I was speaking up at times, they all thought it was low-level ambient noise. Maybe I carried those feelings over to my marriage. I guess it makes it hard to feel heard or hard to speak up. I don't know. Now, jack will certainly think I'm psycho-babbling.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Samantha0905

[2sunny]

That is interesting. I'm the youngest. Where do you fall? Not using it as an excuse at all, but growing up in a "tribe" -- :-D -- does create interesting family dynamics.

 

We're real close, but I understand what you mean. It's almost like when I felt like I was speaking up at times, they all thought it was low-level ambient noise. Maybe I carried those feelings over to my marriage. I guess it makes it hard to feel heard or hard to speak up. I don't know. Now, jack will certainly think I'm psycho-babbling.

 

you are right on target! we carry our learned behaviors and methods of operating into our marriage.

 

i had to learn that i was allowed to be heard. that i actually had something to say. that i deserved to have an opinion and express it. it was hard for me when my exH was so controlling and left me out of every big decision that was made, then was mad that i was mad! grrrr

 

yes, i have a voice, an opinion and i will be heard, damn it... and you will respect my voice! ahahaha

 

i'm #4 of 9. 9 kids in 12 years! we are all very close... i have an amazing family... despite the crazy dynamics - we are all learning a healthier way to respect boundaries and communicate more effectively in the past few years. it took a big issue for us all to be open to changes though - it works for us, much more streamline attitudes about each other.

[boldjack]

All right, Sunny, I do agree with you about not being able to hear her husband's ideas or opinions, but I do not agree with you about her motives. And I also don't agree that her husband can or should be asked to change his behavior, when she is totally resistant to addressing her own issues. There are two people in a marriage, even a marriage in crisis, it is unrealistic to expect any real improvement, when one of the partners is in a continual state of denial. No true communication would be possible. The OP wants more intimacy, but intimacy implies truth. How can you have true intimacy, when you do not an intimate knowledge of your partner?

[NowhereToHide]

Yes, Yes, Yes, NWTH, I Know that there are weak minded people, who don't want to know. They are called doormats.

 

 

Listen, Jack... I thought we agreed through PM to agree to disagree.

 

Why is it so hard for you to believe that there are people out there that think differently than you? Everyone is entitled to their feelings. I, for example, am one of those people that would prefer NOT to know if my H had an affair... he knows this and I know this about him. There isn't a person in my life that would consider me a doormat -- far from it.

 

Everyone has their own ability to cope (or not) with things in their life. Please don't expect everyone to have the same views as you. It just isn't realistic and it diminishes the credibility of some of your arguments (some of which I find really sound).

 

Have you ever stopped to think that some people may have really difficult personal situations (aside from an affair) that you may know nothing about? There are MANY factors that enter into the decision of telling your spouse. It's not black & white.

 

Again. Agree to disagree I suppose.

[Samantha0905]

you are right on target! we carry our learned behaviors and methods of operating into our marriage.

 

i had to learn that i was allowed to be heard. that i actually had something to say. that i deserved to have an opinion and express it. it was hard for me when my exH was so controlling and left me out of every big decision that was made, then was mad that i was mad! grrrr

 

yes, i have a voice, an opinion and i will be heard, damn it... and you will respect my voice! ahahaha

 

i'm #4 of 9. 9 kids in 12 years! we are all very close... i have an amazing family... despite the crazy dynamics - we are all learning a healthier way to respect boundaries and communicate more effectively in the past few years. it took a big issue for us all to be open to changes though - it works for us, much more streamline attitudes about each other.

 

We are 14 in 18 years. Lots of action.

 

Me too on the amazing family. We are real close and yes, there are a lot of crazy dynamics involved.

 

Listen, Jack... I thought we agreed through PM to agree to disagree.

 

Why is it so hard for you to believe that there are people out there that think differently than you? Everyone is entitled to their feelings. I, for example, am one of those people that would prefer NOT to know if my H had an affair... he knows this and I know this about him. There isn't a person in my life that would consider me a doormat -- far from it.

 

Everyone has their own ability to cope (or not) with things in their life. Please don't expect everyone to have the same views as you. It just isn't realistic and it diminishes the credibility of some of your arguments (some of which I find really sound).

 

Have you ever stopped to think that some people may have really difficult personal situations (aside from an affair) that you may know nothing about? There are MANY factors that enter into the decision of telling your spouse. It's not black & white.

 

Again. Agree to disagree I suppose.

 

I agree with you completely here. My spouse and I have discussed the same about preferring not to know. I think jack has some very fine points worth considering and some dogmatic views also.

 

There aren't any people I personally know that call me a doormat either. Or my husband.

[2sunny]

BJ -

 

while i don't disagree with you - she needs to start somewhere. maybe the rest will come later when she feels more safe with him and being honest about little things... it may lead to her ability to trust enough to open up more as time goes along.

 

to start somewhere is better than to not start at all.

 

where that starting point takes them and the growth in their relationship will be determined upon how honest and open to their true feelings they can both be.

 

even if she is true, correct and open in her communication - it very well may not be received well on her husband's end. his response will tell her how much more open she may be capable of - and willing to risk; good, bad or indifferent.

[boldjack]

2sunny, My concern with this Op is, that she is , by not being honest, giving her husband the respect due him, AS HER HUSBAND. It is this selfish desire to have him change, to meet her needs/wants, without a concurrent and equal amount of change, on her part, that is the stumbling block to full communication. The marriage is supposed to be an equal partnership. Her husband has no idea of the reasons why he should change, nor is the OP willing to enlighten him. Answer this......., If your SO told you to change your behavior, without explaining the reasons why you should do this, and the only reason you were given, was that they wanted it so, what would your response be?.............NWTH, I am fully aware that other people have different viewpoints. That doesn't make then right or wrong, just different. Answer this.......Is it better to be honest or dishonest? Is it better to deceive or to be open? Is it better to cheat or not? AND, finally, Which of these things will have a better chance of having a therapeutic effect on the marriage or relationship. We all must stand for something in our lives. I stand for truth. What you stand for, is your business.

[2sunny]

2sunny, My concern with this Op is, that she is , by not being honest, giving her husband the respect due him, AS HER HUSBAND. It is this selfish desire to have him change, to meet her needs/wants, without a concurrent and equal amount of change, on her part, that is the stumbling block to full communication. The marriage is supposed to be an equal partnership. Her husband has no idea of the reasons why he should change, nor is the OP willing to enlighten him. Answer this......., If your SO told you to change your behavior, without explaining the reasons why you should do this, and the only reason you were given, was that they wanted it so, what would your response be?.............NWTH, I am fully aware that other people have different viewpoints. That doesn't make then right or wrong, just different. Answer this.......Is it better to be honest or dishonest? Is it better to deceive or to be open? Is it better to cheat or not? AND, finally, Which of these things will have a better chance of having a therapeutic effect on the marriage or relationship. We all must stand for something in our lives. I stand for truth. What you stand for, is your business.

 

FWIW - i stand for truth too...

 

 

by her changing herself and her approach, it automatically forces change from him as well.

 

listen - i could give you a huge summary to your paragraph there. i am the BS, i tend to not approach these situations from my own life experience but from the perspective that may help the OP with the best possible outcome based upon the info they are willing to give here.

 

in my marriage i made huge changes he required - only to find out it was his own form of trickery to justify his cheating ways. i wouldn't recommend that for any marriage.

[boldjack]

2sunny, Your situation is just what I'm talking about. You were willing to alter your behavior, but your partner selfishly was not and continued to be deceitful and unfaithful. This OP has made no effort to be more open and honest with her H, just like your's , or to be frank, just Like I was. I never told any of my So's about when I cheated, until I finally learned the value of integrity, as a tool for real change in a relationship.

[boldjack]

Now, I have tj'd long enough, and apologize for it to any poster , who is offended. 2sunny , you are a really interesting and thoughtful poster. I wish you the very best of luck, and look forward to reading more of your posts, in the future.:)

[Samantha0905]

2sunny, My concern with this Op is, that she is , by not being honest, giving her husband the respect due him, AS HER HUSBAND. It is this selfish desire to have him change, to meet her needs/wants, without a concurrent and equal amount of change, on her part, that is the stumbling block to full communication. The marriage is supposed to be an equal partnership. Her husband has no idea of the reasons why he should change, nor is the OP willing to enlighten him. Answer this......., If your SO told you to change your behavior, without explaining the reasons why you should do this, and the only reason you were given, was that they wanted it so, what would your response be?.............NWTH, I am fully aware that other people have different viewpoints. That doesn't make then right or wrong, just different. Answer this.......Is it better to be honest or dishonest? Is it better to deceive or to be open? Is it better to cheat or not? AND, finally, Which of these things will have a better chance of having a therapeutic effect on the marriage or relationship. We all must stand for something in our lives. I stand for truth. What you stand for, is your business.

 

Have you ever wondered why I may not be willing to enlighten him? Maybe communication is difficult for reasons other than me. Plus, why the Hell would I hurt him more at this point Why? You want to wave your flag of honesty. Well, wave it. You're waving it now after a lot of stuff in your own life. I've not had a lot of stuff. I've had this stuff. If I take it to my grave and burn in Hell because of it -- well, then I still didn't tell him and break his heart. And screw you if that's what you want to think.

 

It's better not to cheat, jack. I know that. I've learned that the hard way. I don't think I have to hit him over the head with it too. I just don't. I'm tired of saying it to you. You refuse to believe anything nice about people and their intentions for whatever reason.

[Samantha0905]

Now, I have tj'd long enough, and apologize for it to any poster , who is offended. 2sunny , you are a really interesting and thoughtful poster. I wish you the very best of luck, and look forward to reading more of your posts, in the future.:)

 

LOL! You're a piece of work.

[Samantha0905]

FWIW - i stand for truth too...

 

 

by her changing herself and her approach, it automatically forces change from him as well.

 

listen - i could give you a huge summary to your paragraph there. i am the BS, i tend to not approach these situations from my own life experience but from the perspective that may help the OP with the best possible outcome based upon the info they are willing to give here.

 

in my marriage i made huge changes he required - only to find out it was his own form of trickery to justify his cheating ways. i wouldn't recommend that for any marriage.

 

Thank you.

[Samantha0905]

BJ -

 

while i don't disagree with you - she needs to start somewhere. maybe the rest will come later when she feels more safe with him and being honest about little things... it may lead to her ability to trust enough to open up more as time goes along.

 

to start somewhere is better than to not start at all.

 

where that starting point takes them and the growth in their relationship will be determined upon how honest and open to their true feelings they can both be.

 

even if she is true, correct and open in her communication - it very well may not be received well on her husband's end. his response will tell her how much more open she may be capable of - and willing to risk; good, bad or indifferent.

 

Thanks again. This is so true.

[boldjack]

OP, I've waved a lot of flags in my life, and suffered a lot for the waving. Yes , you are so right. I WAS the biggest piece of crap in the toilet. I cheated on , and hurt so many good women, that I probably should be shot. There was a time, that I felt like I could have done the deed, myself. It always surprised me that I could be such a good soldier, politician or businessman, and still be such a louse, in my personal life. Now I don't feel that way. It took the finest woman I know, to change my idiotic behavior into the man I am. I fought for the Flag of my country and suffered wounds. Now I wave the Flag of honesty, somebody has to. And you know... it's a pretty good flag to wave.

[Samantha0905]

OP, I've waved a lot of flags in my life, and suffered a lot for the waving. Yes , you are so right. I WAS the biggest piece of crap in the toilet. I cheated on , and hurt so many good women, that I probably should be shot. There was a time, that I felt like I could have done the deed, myself. It always surprised me that I could be such a good soldier, politician or businessman, and still be such a louse, in my personal life. Now I don't feel that way. It took the finest woman I know, to change my idiotic behavior into the man I am. I fought for the Flag of my country and suffered wounds. Now I wave the Flag of honesty, somebody has to. And you know... it's a pretty good flag to wave.

 

Well, good for you. I'm glad you've found happiness in your life and thanks for serving our country. I've found a special person too. 33 years ago. He's my husband. And he's just as fine as your hard found woman. And he loves me. And I love him. And I'm just as fine, jack. We're lucky to have each other.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Samantha0905

[mem11363]

BJ,

I am confused. Truly. What do you really think is going on here? Sam has described her husband - he is clearly a very smart, successful and perceptive man. He runs a company - has for a while - that means he understands human behavior.

 

If he wants to know he can ASK HER what she did while away. He likely has a good idea of what may/may not have happened. He isn't asking. That isn't his focus.

 

If she volunteers that information without him asking for it - THAT IS A SELFISH ACT. What is it that you don't get about that? It is purely selfish to dump this on someone who is not asking - purely to request their forgiveness. Sam is being more SELFLESS by carrying this burden herself.

 

Sam,

You are not going to hell. You reached a breaking point - and strayed for a while. The best contrition consists of good acts. Help him and you find a way to love each other again. That is a valid path to forgiveness.

 

 

 

OP, I've waved a lot of flags in my life, and suffered a lot for the waving. Yes , you are so right. I WAS the biggest piece of crap in the toilet. I cheated on , and hurt so many good women, that I probably should be shot. There was a time, that I felt like I could have done the deed, myself. It always surprised me that I could be such a good soldier, politician or businessman, and still be such a louse, in my personal life. Now I don't feel that way. It took the finest woman I know, to change my idiotic behavior into the man I am. I fought for the Flag of my country and suffered wounds. Now I wave the Flag of honesty, somebody has to. And you know... it's a pretty good flag to wave.

[2sunny]

Now, I have tj'd long enough, and apologize for it to any poster , who is offended. 2sunny , you are a really interesting and thoughtful poster. I wish you the very best of luck, and look forward to reading more of your posts, in the future.:)

 

silly boy, i've been here for more than four years posting

[boldjack]

Oh, I knew that. It's just that you are always an exceptionally interesting person, and I wanted to give you a compliment. Isn't that OK?:D

[2sunny]

Oh, I knew that. It's just that you are always an exceptionally interesting person, and I wanted to give you a compliment. Isn't that OK?:D

 

too funny, exceptionally interesting is something i've never been called... ahahaha

[boldjack]

Well, I don't care what "other people", think. I think you are too cool and I will stick by that!!:)

[Samantha0905]

I've been receiving emails after googling about the counseling services Mort Fertel provides. Have any of you ever used his services? I doubt I will, but his emails are always full of good advice.

 

Anyway, his email today had this in it:

 

Would you believe that it's the opposite?! That's

right; research shows that the number one

predictor of divorce is the habitual AVOIDANCE of

conflict. In other words, a couple who does NOT

fight is at the greatest risk for divorce.

 

This just struck out at me because I've said repeatedly in this thread my husband and I do not argue. I've always found it a little strange considering how long we've been together.

 

On an upnote, we are spending this weekend together with relatives and friends -- football game, etc.

 

Next weekend, he's planned a trip for us to the mountains -- just us -- so that will be nice.

[Samantha0905]

If she volunteers that information without him asking for it - THAT IS A SELFISH ACT. What is it that you don't get about that? It is purely selfish to dump this on someone who is not asking - purely to request their forgiveness. Sam is being more SELFLESS by carrying this burden herself.

 

Sam,

You are not going to hell. You reached a breaking point - and strayed for a while. The best contrition consists of good acts. Help him and you find a way to love each other again. That is a valid path to forgiveness.

 

Thanks mem. I appreciate the support. I know I'm not going to Hell.

 

I'm not trying to minimize my mistake. There are two people in a relationship, however, and I think if non-communication, lack of intimacy, etc. go on for too long it can set the relationship on shaky grounds. I wish I had been that person who had the integrity not to cheat, but I wasn't and I'm trying my best to move forward in the way that will work best for my marriage. My husband knew I was feeling lonely and unhappy and we didn't have healthy communication patterns to address it. I had a lot going on -- daughter's wedding, home renovation, son going to another state for college -- all in the same year. I was dealing with the children leaving, and since I felt lonely anyway as far as my marriage was concerned, the thought of them being gone only made me feel more lonely and desperate. I enjoy their company so much and they were my "occupation" as a stay-at-home mom.

 

It felt good to talk to my husband and to hear him verbalize what he's feeling and to let him know what I need to feel intimate, like friends and happy in the relationship.

 

As I said, it's a start. I think it was a relief for both of us and a step in the right direction.

[mem11363]

How can you not argue? My wife - who I am crazy about - and I talk about everything. We don't argue a lot - but it would be impossible not to argue unless we were clones or afraid to upset each other. Don't get me wrong the arguments are pure verbal - would never raise a hand to each other - but we disagree about important stuff sometimes. I know that some amount of conflict turns my wife on. Can't explain it - am pretty sure it is a VERY common reaction to conflict in men and women. And sometimes we are a bit rough on each other. I wish we weren't. But in that roughness is honest emotion - not nastiness - just a passionate belief that one or the other of us feels very strongly about the topic.

 

The other day I got the impression you had totally cut off communication with your AP. Is that correct? One of the other posters in this thread seemed to think you were still in communication with your AP.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks mem. I appreciate the support. I know I'm not going to Hell.

 

I'm not trying to minimize my mistake. There are two people in a relationship, however, and I think if non-communication, lack of intimacy, etc. go on for too long it can set the relationship on shaky grounds. I wish I had been that person who had the integrity not to cheat, but I wasn't and I'm trying my best to move forward in the way that will work best for my marriage. My husband knew I was feeling lonely and unhappy and we didn't have healthy communication patterns to address it. I had a lot going on -- daughter's wedding, home renovation, son going to another state for college -- all in the same year. I was dealing with the children leaving, and since I felt lonely anyway as far as my marriage was concerned, the thought of them being gone only made me feel more lonely and desperate. I enjoy their company so much and they were my "occupation" as a stay-at-home mom.

 

It felt good to talk to my husband and to hear him verbalize what he's feeling and to let him know what I need to feel intimate, like friends and happy in the relationship.

 

As I said, it's a start. I think it was a relief for both of us and a step in the right direction.

[Samantha0905]

How can you not argue? My wife - who I am crazy about - and I talk about everything. We don't argue a lot - but it would be impossible not to argue unless we were clones or afraid to upset each other. Don't get me wrong the arguments are pure verbal - would never raise a hand to each other - but we disagree about important stuff sometimes. I know that some amount of conflict turns my wife on. Can't explain it - am pretty sure it is a VERY common reaction to conflict in men and women. And sometimes we are a bit rough on each other. I wish we weren't. But in that roughness is honest emotion - not nastiness - just a passionate belief that one or the other of us feels very strongly about the topic.

 

The other day I got the impression you had totally cut off communication with your AP. Is that correct? One of the other posters in this thread seemed to think you were still in communication with your AP.

 

I don't know. It's weird. It seems I have spirited discussions with everyone but him. He does not like it and sees it as a personal attack from me. I was talking to one of my best friends today and she said she didn't get it because she thinks I'm so easy to talk to -- even when we have differing opinions because I'm respectful of her feelings and really listen to what she is saying. Beats me. I like varying opinions. My son and I go at it sometimes and we both seem to enjoy it! I like to hear what people have on their minds even if it isn't the same way I think about something. We all have a brain/heart and think what we think.

 

The last time I talked to my ex-AP was when he called me and I think I mentioned it in this thread. Sometime in early November? We had broken it off already and I don't remember the exact date. Maybe that's more of my avoidance stuff. I don't remember dates of bad/emotional stuff. I don't hang onto it. I don't remember the exact date my mother, father or brother died -- but my sister could tell you exactly. I remember their birthdays.

 

Anyway, I've been out of town for about a week and he had not contacted me here until late last night - by text only, so maybe you're psychic. It stressed me because I hadn't heard from him since that last earlier phone conversation. He normally had contacted me several times daily, so I figured this time it took and I felt that was for the best. He said he loved me, missed me, was having a weak moment and asked how I was doing. I told him my husband and I were talking and working on things and I did not in any way want to lead him on and wanted to give him (ex-AP) respect so I was not contacting him in any way. He said he felt like he was waiting for me to choose and I told him not to because I was working on my marriage and again reiterated I was moving back home. I told him to date and move on and he deserved someone who could give themself to him 100%. He went on about how much he loved me and to think of our emotional connection. It made me sad and stressed and guilty (all of which are par for the course I suppose) and I wish he hadn't sent me a text.

 

For what it's worth, although I've missed him in a lot of ways -- the text was not wanted. I have felt relieved to be working on my marriage and moving away from the affair. It sounds cold, but I have felt that way. It has even surprised me because I felt so emotionally attached to my ex-AP in many ways and I haven't exactly made leaps and bounds in that direction with my husband yet -- but I want to.

 

I hope my ex-AP moves on. If not, I know there is some way I can block him from texting or calling. I just don't want to have to. I want him to move on and feel intact. After we talked on the phone that last time, I told him I would rather him de-friend me on FB. He did. I thought by doing that, it gave him the dignity of performing the act. I know that sounds juvenile since it's a social website and all, but I don't want to cause any more damage than I already have.

 

I don't know what else to say. I'm emotionally exhausted and before anyone jumps on me for it -- I'm not asking for or even feel like I deserve sympathy.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Samantha0905