Its a long story

[debs1971]

Hi

 

First post, and unsure of why I am here really...

 

Found out at the weekend, my partner of 7 years was intending on leaving...without telling me.....obviously shock hit me like a ton of bricks, also found out he had been seeing someone else, for a month, another shock to deal with....I can say our relationship has been rocky for quite a while, but I think I was the last one to know that we didn't have a relationship anymore, this was his jusitifcation for cheating, by saying well we didn't have a relationship....we live together and I have 3 children from a previous marriage, and the one thing I cannot get into my head, is that he was just going to leave...me....the children...he had since said he didn't come to the decision lightly.....he also said, this other woman listened to him, understood him...I feel from knowing what was said between them, she helped in the decision by agreeing with everything he was saying...even though half of it was not even true, he was in a relationship with me, he has pulled me down to her, to try and make her think he has such a bad life....he also decided to pick on a vulerable woman, and lead her into a false sense of hope, she thought he loved her....in a way I kinda feel for her, but she has been taken in by lies and false statements, he wanted to make himself feel better, he wanted someone to want him...I so understand that...but it doesn't make it right, and I have spent 3 whole days trying to get him to see, that although I have a little understanding of why he has done what he has, it is not right.....we all want to be loved and adored....but you must face up to that if it is not happening, to deal with it in the right way....I have spoke to the woman, and told her exactly what he has done and said.....she was shocked and said how do you think this makes me feel, I said Im sorry I couldnt care how you are feeling right now, I have a 7 year relationship hanging by a thread and 3 children to think of.....I said he doesn't love you, he said what you wanted to hear, and he knew you would say the same back, which is what he wanted, she said so he has used me...I said correct.....

My emotions are all over the place, I do not know whether I am coming or going, since speaking to him, he said he is shocked that I still loved him....I told him how I felt, I accepted blame for the relationship going bad, not all blame, as it takes two doesn't it.....he now has said he doesn't know what he wants.....one minute hes going, the next he isn't, this is making me feel worse, I dont know where I am....he said I must not factor in that he cheated on me, as he said that is not the cause of the problem.....but how can I not factor it in...it is just another thing for me to try and get my head round....he said if things had not of been as bad as they were he would not of done it.....but its an excuse, and I am having bother making him see that....I maybe not be correct...as I am confused.....

 

I really don't know what to think of all this....the fact is bad enough he was just going to leave me high and dry with those 3 children.....he is ok...a single man who can just walk away...whilst I would be the one left to pick up the devestation and mess....I dont even think I know this man, it is not like him to be like this, I am utterly shocked....

 

I cannot seem to answer my own questions, and I worry I am getting swayed by things he is saying to me...I take full responsibility for my own actions on what was wrong with our relationship and as much as I knew things were not right, I didn't realise how bad they were from his point of view...not a word said to me....we had our fair share of problems in the past, and some have been resolved....nothing is ever perfect.....I feel in my head at the moment, to just tell him to go...but it is not what I want...I'm angry...hurt......upset...and as rational as I have tried to be...it is hard keeping a brave face on for my children....at the moment they know nothing...I won't have them hurt.....he said the reason he has stayed so long is for the children and that he could not just walk away....he keeps saying do you know how long I have been thinking about this....

 

I have come here hoping for some outsiders advice and help....I have not gone into this too deeply at the moment, just wanted to give someone an insight into whats been going on in my life....I found this site, this morning, and thought it might help me....

 

....I knew there were problems, as did he....I won't be blamed for all this....and at the moment that is what seems to be happening...

Edited October 27, 2009 by debs1971

[Ronni_W]

Welcome to LS, debs. And BIG hugs.

 

You're right, of course -- he didn't handle his own disappointment, frustration, upset, etc., etc., (in/about the relationship) very well. I am not sure, though, if it helps anything in the present to focus on the facts of what would have been "better" for him to do.

I mean, after he realizes/admits, to himself and you, that he took the easy and cowardly way out...then what? After he acknowledges, to himself and you, that all his "reasons" are really just BS justifications, excuses and blaming...then what?

 

Maybe the first thing for you to decide-know is whether or not you even want to work towards repairing the relationship? And, he needs to figure that out for himself.

If that's what you both want then, at this point, reestablishing mutual trust and respect, and making the relationship safe, supportive, inspirational and uplifting for BOTH of you might be more productive goals on which to place your attention and energies. That is, to start looking forward to find ways to heal and recover.

 

Have you two talked about couples' counseling? And you might want to also consider individual therapy for yourself, and to suggest it to him. The therapist(s) ought to be able to help you recover from his infidelity, amongst a host of other things that need to happen for you both to get to a much better place than where you've been, and currently are. There is also a section on infidelity at MarriageBuilders.com (under 'quick clicks' in right-hand side menu.)

 

It's very difficult, I know. Wishing you comfort and guidance.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Ronni_W

[Ariadne]

Hi,

 

The impression I get from reading your post..

 

Is that you and your husband were living lives apart in a very bad relationship, where he was helping you support the children from your previous relationship.

 

I don't see a relationship of communion, but of necessity.

 

And it seems like he got tired and not wanted to deal with it anymore.

 

When you say you are hurt, you seem more hurt for him wanting to leave you in a bad situation but not of losing him.

 

Not sure what to tell you, because to stay would be to continue in a so so partnership or else be stranded with all those children.

 

Good luck.

[debs1971]

Many thanks for the reply Ronni....! I kinda knew I was right, until he admits to himself that he has done wrong, then we cannot move on!

 

I don't know what would of been better for him to do...just to have been honest with me...after 7 years I deserve that..?

 

I am so unsure at the moment what I want to do, I need to ask myself now the trust has gone, can I get it back, when I first met him, I was at probably my lowest ebb....I trusted no-one...he built my trust..and I never thought he would betray that he knows how long it took to gain...I am stronger though now and can look at the wider picture...the reasons why etc....

 

We did once consider couselling, but it never happens...I wish it had, and it maybe that we try and look into something like that, once we both decide what we want to do, as much as he says to me at present he wants to give it a go...a last chance...my thought is, is he taking the easy option....I want him to want to be here, to want to love me....I won't play second best for anyone....and ofcourse there has been a lot of anger over the last few days and a lot of things said....its all a lot to take in....

 

Again thanks for your reply...its good to hear other points of view..its helps sometimes to put things into more a focus...

 

Debs

x

[debs1971]

Hi,

 

The impression I get from reading your post..

 

Is that you and your husband were living lives apart in a very bad relationship, where he was helping you support the children from your previous relationship.

 

I don't see a relationship of communion, but of necessity.

 

And it seems like he got tired and not wanted to deal with it anymore.

 

When you say you are hurt, you seem more hurt for him wanting to leave you in a bad situation but not of losing him.

 

Not sure what to tell you, because to stay would be to continue in a so so partnership or else be stranded with all those children.

 

Good luck.

Ariadne

 

I understand from you reading my post and your reply, I would not stay with someone for necessity, I'm sorry if my post came across like that, maybe he has stayed more for that reason, but if you cannot be honest with yourself, you will never be honest with others...we have had a relationship of sorts, albeit not a good one, I am not one to stay with someone I do not want to be with, for the sake of nescessity or convenience. I am more hurt he wanted to just walk without telling me....if he had said to me, I want to leave,then at least it would of given me a chance to sort something out, he couldn't do that though, as he couldn't cope with it...so the best way in his eyes was to up and leave? Ive been in some crap situations in my life, but never would I desert someone, and leave them in a total mess... maybe thats just me, but to me its a cowards way out...I dont want to sound defensive at all, just trying to explain.

 

Debs

x

Edited October 27, 2009 by debs1971

[Ronni_W]

I am more hurt he wanted to just walk without telling me ... never would I desert someone, maybe thats just me, but to me its a cowards way out

Debs, yes, for you (and me) it would have been the coward's way out. So, one thing is that, about THIS matter, he was willing and able to act like a coward. It's not what you would do and it's not what you expected he would be capable of doing. But fact is fact; reality is reality. Acceptance that, about THIS matter, he lost his courage.

 

The more difficult thing to consider -- and this was the part that I totally disliked hearing from my/our counselor -- the really, really tough thing is that YOU had something to do with him losing his courage. It was in YOUR (mutual) relationship that he did not feel safe enough to be honest with you; and, apparently, has not felt safe or happy for who knows how long?

 

No, he didn't deal with it very effectively; and yes, his feelings and actions are 100% his responsibility; and yes, he made a coward's decision about something that significantly impacts you and the kids. But it didn't happen in a vacuum, either. The dynamics between the TWO of you made that seem like an acceptable option to him; in HIS mind, perhaps it was the ONLY option that he could see as 'workable' for him. He told you that he had agonized over it. You said that "he keeps saying do you know how long I have been thinking about this"

I'd be inclined to believe him, about that. It doesn't excuse anything and, yes, it would be nice if he can 'man up' to what he did (and did not do.) But it's also okay to (try to) put ourselves in our partner's shoes, if only to alleviate some of our own anger, upset and disappointment...and maybe increase our capacity for understanding and empathy.

 

There are different angles, and sides, and perspectives. To me, it's about exploring all of them and not excluding any of them. They can co-exist; they have been co-existing in your relationship. One does not 'trump' or excuse another. But a different one can bring some comfort, on some level.

[debs1971]

Debs, yes, for you (and me) it would have been the coward's way out. So, one thing is that, about THIS matter, he was willing and able to act like a coward. It's not what you would do and it's not what you expected he would be capable of doing. But fact is fact; reality is reality. Acceptance that, about THIS matter, he lost his courage.

 

The more difficult thing to consider -- and this was the part that I totally disliked hearing from my/our counselor -- the really, really tough thing is that YOU had something to do with him losing his courage. It was in YOUR (mutual) relationship that he did not feel safe enough to be honest with you; and, apparently, has not felt safe or happy for who knows how long?

 

No, he didn't deal with it very effectively; and yes, his feelings and actions are 100% his responsibility; and yes, he made a coward's decision about something that significantly impacts you and the kids. But it didn't happen in a vacuum, either. The dynamics between the TWO of you made that seem like an acceptable option to him; in HIS mind, perhaps it was the ONLY option that he could see as 'workable' for him. He told you that he had agonized over it. You said that "he keeps saying do you know how long I have been thinking about this"

I'd be inclined to believe him, about that. It doesn't excuse anything and, yes, it would be nice if he can 'man up' to what he did (and did not do.) But it's also okay to (try to) put ourselves in our partner's shoes, if only to alleviate some of our own anger, upset and disappointment...and maybe increase our capacity for understanding and empathy.

 

There are different angles, and sides, and perspectives. To me, it's about exploring all of them and not excluding any of them. They can co-exist; they have been co-existing in your relationship. One does not 'trump' or excuse another. But a different one can bring some comfort, on some level.

 

Yes Ronni I did have a lot to do with why he made the decision he did..I feel gutted that he didn't speak to me, couldn't speak to me, we have always talked things through.....I do think if I cannot hold up my hands and admit things now...this will never work, and this I have done....Ive laid myself bare....I feel vulnerable but I have to feel like this....Well if he cannot 'man up' then I know the outcome, what he has done is blame most of this on me...again I feel this is wrong, he hasn't yet got to the point of accepting some of this is his fault too...I have tried without pushing blame onto him....to help him talk, I have had to bite my tongue with some things that have been said.

 

I am trying to explore every possibility, every angle, the questions I have asked myself over the last few days are phenominal.

 

I do indeed believe he has thought long and hard about the decision he made, and yes as shocking as it was to me...I know he didn't decide this on a whim, but the fact he also decided to bring someone else in this relationship, kind of tells me, he needed more of an excuse to leave.....and now I face thinking, he has said he wants to make a go of it...I find it hard to take in how he can change his mind, I ask if anything I have said has changed his mind, he said ofcourse it has. I have tried to put myself in his shoes, and I think he has done the same....but as you said sometimes we do this to eleviate anger....!

 

Am I making any sense?

[Ronni_W]

Yes, you are making sense, debs.

It's perfectly fine to do something just to alleviate our own anger...and when we try to see things from the "other" side, we are also increasing our understanding and compassion, which is always a good thing, yes?

I feel gutted that he didn't speak to me, couldn't speak to me

Do you mean that you're feeling terribly guilty about your own contributions? Because I do understand that but...it's basically self-blame, isn't it? And your psyche doesn't need you to be doing that to it. I would urge you to be kind to yourself through all of this. In any case, you're getting undeserved blame from your partner and that is more than enough.

 

And there again, yes, him blaming you, or anything outside of himself, is non-productive and not taking responsibility for his own actions. But it doesn't mean anything other than that; it doesn't mean you or something else outside of himself is to blame.

If you do want to move forward with him IN your life, then you could set a goal of helping him to take responsibility...not helping him to admit that he was/is "wrong". It is also a difference in your own mindset, and the words you will use to communicate with him.

I have tried without pushing blame onto him....to help him talk, I have had to bite my tongue

That's where a professional could come in really handy -- it will be difficult to change whatever dynamics sufficiently for him to be able to open up to the extent that is needed. He will still be feeling unsafe, and you are feeling vulnerable.

 

You're biting your tongue, and that's an excellent thing. But he won't know that you're doing it so won't be able to appreciate it as an effort on your part. It gets all screwed-up...a relationship does, at this stage. And when the lines of communications are effectively closed-off, which it sounds is the case, it's even more difficult to get things moving and flowing smoothly again. (I know that you're talking with each other but, if he is still in "blame and deny" about his role, then you're not yet communicating effectively.)

 

It's possible that having the affair was just another 'easy and cowardly' decision...and maybe he used it to just be able to mask, ignore and deny his deeper feelings of unhappiness, despair, disappointment, etc. I mean, he could have been looking for an excuse to leave...but another possibility is that he was hoping (bassakwardly) that the affair would somehow help him to stay. It could have made some "logic" to him at the time. Our minds can be wonderfully inventive and creative.

 

Which is also how he could have changed his mind -- reality has finally dawned upon him. Back when he thought he had something "figured out" is very different than having to face the actual prospect of losing one's partner of 7 years and three kids, all of whom have shared one's heart and home.

 

The most important thing, debs, is do YOU want to make a go of it? He said that he does. That is what you have to work with. I would guess, and why don't you assume, that it is because, when push came to shove, some part of him realized that he doesn't really want to lose you...he just wants a happier, more fulfilling relationship with you.

At least, you could ask him if that is possibly what happened. Help him to talk to you.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Ronni_W
grammar

[debs1971]

Ronni

 

You make a lot of sense...I know I have to not let him drag me any further down....as hard as it has been...I know in my own mind it is so easy to start the self blame, at the moment everything is so raw....and days of talking have not resolved things, I suggest counselling to him last night, he shrugged his shoulders, I said Look I think we need more help, and am not sure we can solve all this on our own, he has not dismissed the idea, and if I am honest, he is scared, as he won't want anyone else telling him he's done wrong, but an outsider can often see more than both him and I could, I am not scared to be told things....I would quite happily open up and tell a counsellor everything, and listen to what is said back to me, even if it upset me....!

 

At the moment he says he is emotionally drained....I have spoke with numerous friends and had quite a lot of support, he now has not got this woman to sound off to, and I know he has not spoke with anyone, he is not one for wanting anyone to know his business, and has not been happy with me talking to friends, but I said I would of exploded otherwise, he thinks my friends will dislike him now, but I said I have not pulled you down to them, I have tried to make them understand the reasons for things happening...!

 

I do want him in my life yes, as angry and hurt as I feel, we have something special, I have worries about trust, I also worry will he think this again, he was late home from work last night, and I thought he is not coming home, I have to deal with that,and those kind of feelings I have told him, I am not sure I will get the trust back, I have to be honest with him, again I said would you just trust me...if I had met some other bloke? There is so much to think about, and for the next day or so, we have decided to not talk about it, as we are both in a state of turmoil, we both need to get energy and strength back.

 

Just reading your replies Ronni...for you to see it from an outsiders point of view...to me it has made a lot of sense...I am grateful for your input.

 

Debs

x

[Ronni_W]

Hi debs.

I'm glad that my input is helping you in some way. I appreciate you for mentioning it.

 

You're doing well -- the way you suggested counselling, and your decision to just not talk about it for a few days, and understanding what may be holding him back from counselling. It shows your compassion, and a deeper well of strength and courage, IMO. Although I totally get that your thoughts and 'surface' feelings may not at all be reflecting any such thing.

 

I don't recall which 'relationship book' this is from, but the suggestion is to go ahead and book an appointment with a couples' counsellor, give your partner the details, and tell him or her that s/he is more than welcome to join you.

The caveat is to not place any expectations on your partner showing up; be happy if s/he does but do not be disappointed if not.

 

As you so wisely say, you do need to build-up your own energy and strength, and whether it is a joint or individual session, that will be a start.

 

I have worries about trust, I also worry will he think this again, he was late home from work last night, and I thought he is not coming home, I have to deal with that,and those kind of feelings I have told him, I am not sure I will get the trust back, I have to be honest with him

debs, that must have been an awful time for you...waiting for him to get home! If I could suggest: mention it to him from a self-loving place. Just something like, "Honey, I know it's my own stuff but I'd really appreciate it if you could let me know when you'll be late. It's temporary; my psyche is just on high-alert and gets freaked-out more easily than usual." I mean...let him know where you are and what you need, and ask for his help with it.

 

IMO. Yes, he (still) deserves your honesty. But. If my guy was just always "being honest" with me about how I fecked-up and how he doesn't know if/how/when he's gonna trust me again...well, where is the upliftment, or the encouragement, or the hope -- for me or for "us"? It's a fine line, is all I'm saying.

 

Could I also ask about your kids? How are they coping through all of this?

 

I continue to send all of you 'positive vibes', and wishes for happy outcomes.

Ronni

[debs1971]

Ronni

 

Its half 3 in the morning, and Im awake..I dont sleep or haven't in the past week, Im losing weight at a rate of knots....Im struggling to stay strong.

 

The children know nothing at the moment, as hard as it has been to keep a brave face on it, I've done it for them....Im civilised to my partner when they are about....they are not stupid though, and keep asking me..'Mum are you ok' I tell them I am ok..and just not feeling too well at the moment.

 

Things are changing here...and not for the better, my partner used to spend a lot of time on his computer, as did I on mine, on various sites, he met the woman through one of the particular sites he goes on, when this came about I decided to lay off going on the computer and doing my own thing, I thought this was important to do, to not use it as an escape as we both had been doing, he has been on his computer every night since, I asked for a least one night where he didn't feel the need to switch it on..he plays some games on here and needs to update them, last night...I broke my rationaility, I came downstairs from putting the children to bed to him again switching his laptop on, I asked if he would stay off, he said I cannot begrudge him 10 minutes to update one of his games, I wasn't happy and said what is more important to you....he said I was being irrational...I said i do not think I am..one night....anyway it kicked off into a big row, I said I seem to be the only one really trying, he said things cannot go back to normal straight away....but I have had not that much feedback from him....I have gone to give him cuddles, hugs....but this has not been reciprocated, I feel pushed away, I feel unloved..the computer thing would have just shown me....given me a little hope....yet again I am made to feel...I have said the wrong thing...

 

I again sleep downstairs this evening, i suffer from asthma and the stress I am under is making me, unable to sleep, coughing a lot, he texted me yesterday and said I want to cuddle you to sleep but this didn't materialise...I am not stupid to think it can just go back to normal, but after a week, I expect to see something, and I am not seeing it...I am seeing a cold hearted man....whom I don't know anymore....I want to just take my children and leave, but I have nowhere to go, I know in my heart of hearts once the children know...there is no going back for me....I won't have them pulled from pillar to post....thats whats happening to me at the moment, my strength is waivering....I really want to say...go away and just leave us be....

 

I really am unsure this is going to work, infact at the moment, my thought is...Im losing my fight, I won't give give give, to get nothing back Ronni.....I even feel deep down, he doesn't want this, he cannot cope with the repercussions of everything, I question whether I was right in asking him just to stay off the computer, ok he might only go on it for 10 minutes....but that is not the point...is that right? I feel now he is control of me, how pathetic I must look to him....

 

Im so unsure now of what I am doing, what I want....I won't fight for something that someone else seems not to want.....I try and think he is so emotionally down that he cannot think straight, my philosophy is though, even through everything, you gotta give something, even something small...I am not seeing that, its pushing me away, and changing the way I am thinking, there is one thing I never do, and that is give up....but its getting harder to put on a front for the children.

 

Sorry for my essay....i feel back to square one.....at this moment, I really do not like him much.....maybe it would be easier to give up fighting for this.......

[Ronni_W]

Hugs, debs.

I know it is very, very difficult. You do need to keep up your physical strength...for the kids as well as yourself...but I know how it is to not be able to keep anything down. Do the best you can, is all I can suggest about that. Broth, protein shakes, nutritional supplements, whatever is manageable. Perhaps check with your doc about a natural sleeping aid? Melatonin? And stress relief measures - walking, yoga, gardening. Again, just do whatever you can do.

he texted me yesterday and said I want to cuddle you to sleep but this didn't materialise

What happened for it to not materialize? To me, I would see that as "even something small"; a small sign of him trying. But, of course, that's easy to do from this side of my keyboard. I know that. It's only been a week, though, and that is really not a long time; not for something as big as this. It feels like a long time when things seem to be going in slow-motion but that's just the perception, not the reality.

 

Perhaps you could tell him that you're feeling afraid, vulnerable and alone; and ask him what are his overriding feelings. Maybe even ask how he feels about scheduling a time for you two to try to discuss some of your thoughts? Maybe let him know that it's not your goal to just make him feel "wrong". That one is so difficult...without any help to get out of that dynamic.

 

It's possible that you are BOTH fighting for control; that you're BOTH embroiled in one big power struggle at this point. He may feel as helpless and powerless as you are feeling.

If I may. Your posts are very much about who is "right" and who is "wrong" -- you even question if your own actions are "right" or "wrong". And, if he has the sense that all conversations are going to lead to him being "wrong"...well, I'd hide behind the games on my laptop, too. Wouldn't you?

I know in my heart of hearts once the children know...there is no going back for me....I won't have them pulled from pillar to post....thats whats happening to me at the moment

I would discourage that kind of thinking, debs. That is you putting the outcome of this on your children, and projecting what is happening to you onto them. That is unfair to them and places an adult burden on them, if only energetically. This is NOT about them, and your experience is NOT their experience. "Pillar to post" is only happening to you. Children do not get that sense unless their grown-ups somehow message it to them.

 

They need you to still be the parent, and to make all the adult decisions. You stay or you leave. You decide that; you don't wait until your children find out and then say, "Well, that's that, then. Here we go from pillar to post because you found out the truth." (I know you wouldn't say it to them directly, but that is how you posted...that you would think of it that way; instead of making a decision yourself, and taking the responsibility for whatever decision you do end up making.)

I feel now he is control of me, how pathetic I must look to him....

Or. He is feeling so pathetic and wretched about himself that he is perceiving you as being strong and in control of him?

 

He has told you that he does want to try and make a go of it. And he has shared that he wants to cuddle you to sleep. Maybe that took HUGE effort on his part? We don't know how low he is, mentally, physically and/or emotionally. It could be getting out of bed is difficult for him, right now. Only he knows.

 

I get that you don't like him much -- that's totally understandable given all that has gone on this past week. The thing is to somehow try to see through that, and uncover if and how much love is left. To that end, have you taken a look at that MarriageBuilders.com site; or considered setting up an appointment with an individual therapist or relationship counsellor?

 

Like I said, debs, I know it's incredibly difficult. But you can either let your thoughts sink you, or you can take some action that will help to keep you afloat. It's sucks that, at a time like this, you have to make any decision at all but...you do. Just something that'll keep you afloat...that will be fine for now.

Edited October 29, 2009 by Ronni_W

[debs1971]

Ronni

 

It didn't materialise as we had a row.....I don't think it would of anyway, maybe it is something small from him....I do try and look at the bigger picture, but sometimes I find it hard....!

 

As for the 'right or wrong'.....I understand what you are saying....and Ill be honest it isn't just about this...he rarely admits he is wrong, never has, its usually me who admits defeat, and its not about winning, its about seeing other people's point of views, sometimes I think he is blinkered to his own thought...he always says to me, and always has, I am not a bad guy...I have never said he was, not now, or throughout our relationship, I think sometimes he is justifying to himself that he is a good guy, that he doesn't do that much wrong, nobody is perfect, or infalliable? The thing is I have not pushed the wrong onto him.....Ive accepted my wrong doings, he has to do the same?

 

What I mean by the children comments was....he must realise as I do..IF he makes a decision....to go....there is then no going back for me....its the end.....its not in any kind of harsh way I say that.....once the break is made, or if it is made, I will move on....and would never want to see him again....he has a habit of saying things, then taking a step back, then changing his mind, he does keep doing this with me at the moment, how can I know where I am, feel like I am walking on eggshells with him...pondering to him....I would never push anything onto the children....I am the parent, I have massive protection for their well being...I think my comment was posted in the wrong way....my apologies for that.

 

I think in a way yes he does see me as more in control, and he will hate that....so in a way I understand why he is not as forthcoming as I might want him to be....I have said now, I won't be even trying to act normal with him....only when the children are there...I won't give him hugs, cuddles, maybe I was wrong to hug him and cuddle him...he told me we have to work at being friends first, which I totally agree with....I am going to keep my mouth shut...and wait for him to say anything at all.....I dont know if that is the correct thing to do, but Ill be happy to talk more when he is ready.

 

Love? Ronni....I do love him, but he doesn't love me....he has said he does after saying he didn't, again he is not thinking straight.....I have told him I love him....not asked if he loved me...by saying it.....I think he is lying to himself and by doing so, lying to me...false hope and all....the more I write the more I think...this is doomed.....at present I think one of us will eventually just crack....not a nice thing to think....

 

My thoughts haven't yet sunk me....I feel at times to be coming close to that, I am tired of thinking.....the children are just waking....I best go and wash my face...brush my hair and put on 'mummy head'

 

Thanks again Ronni.....you make more sense....and after reading what you write, it does seem to put things more into perspective for me....

 

xxx

 

P.S Forgot to say Ill take a look at marriagebuilders...!

Edited October 29, 2009 by debs1971

[Ronni_W]

Hey debs...or should I call you "mummy head"?

Yes, sorry about that -- I totally misinterpreted how you meant it about the kids. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

My guy is also very into the whole "right/wrong" dynamic. If I express an opinion that differs from his...I am somehow trying to make him "wrong" . We've done some counselling and I swear he'd be easier to just quit our 11-year relationship than acknowledge to himself that SOME of his (relationship) beliefs, attitudes and behaviours can use a bit of serious tweaking.

 

As you say, it is their self-fears from which they're trying to protect themselves, and it comes out as withdrawal, silence, emotional unavailability. They want to have everything figured out in their heads first, so that they won't/can't be proven "wrong" (as if that is really what our primary motivation and goal is .) It can get incredibly frustrating to be on the other side of that. Believe me, I do know. In any event.

 

You're only guessing that you being cuddled to sleep wouldn't have happened anyway, even if you didn't have a row. It's fine to guess and assume but, as difficult as it is, it's also important to remember that those aren't the FACTS of your reality/relationship.

The thing is I have not pushed the wrong onto him.....Ive accepted my wrong doings, he has to do the same?

No, debs, he does NOT actually have to do the same. It would be nice if they could, but they are not obligated -- we are not entitled to them doing the same. In any case, I do not believe that they have the capacity to take responsibility for their "negative" stuff; their "shadow/dark" side. For lots of people, the prospect of doing that is just too frightening. Maybe even for more of the human population, than not. It is in our own best interest to just accept that they cannot. In my case, I really do think that he would if he could. But he can't.

 

You're right that you are not the one pushing "wrong" onto him (he is doing that to himself.) But that is how they perceive it, precisely because they're not taking responsibility for their own "negative" stuff! That's the loop that they're stuck in, see? THEY think it's us pushing "wrong" onto them, so...for them it is us.

And that does put us on eggshells because we get that anything we say (about our discontent, upset, unhappiness) is just going to trigger their self-crap and make them feel worse. That's the loop that WE are stuck in!

 

Permanent solutions? I haven't yet stumbled upon them, debs. Let's promise to post if/when either on of us does, fair enough?

I won't be even trying to act normal with him....only when the children are there...I won't give him hugs, cuddles, maybe I was wrong to hug him and cuddle him

Just my opinion. When you "act normal" with him without really feeling it or wanting to, then that is YOU lying to, and being dishonest with, him...and yourself...and your kids. Which is fine, of course. But you kinda also then forfeit any right to bitch about his "lying and dishonesty", don't you?

 

And. If you're going to start doing your own withholding, silence and emotional unavailability...well, then you're right: Your relationship is doomed. Not that we have any solutions, but we sure do know what is going to cause more hurt and damage...and, in my own case, I'm choosing against that (as best I can in any given moment.)

 

The part that I've bolded -- when our partner is so caught up in "right/wrong", or any other dysfunctional dynamic, it is so very easy to get sucked into the same. You could, if you wanted to, try to start noticing your self-talk about this "right/wrong" crap...and start using different words. Healthy, productive, effective, functional, supportive, etc., etc. Those types of words are usually more accurate, in any case.

Love? Ronni....I do love him, but he doesn't love me....he has said he does after saying he didn't, again he is not thinking straight

Okay so. What do you want from him? We already know that he is down and confused. But. Why are you choosing to NOT believe him when he says that he does love you? What makes you think-believe that you know his true feelings better than he does? To me, that is disrespectful and bordering arrogance. Again...not too great if you REALLY want to make a go of things (which, I get that you're not sure about that, at this point.)

 

On the other side. HE could be saying the same thing about you! "debs says she loves me, but she doesn't. (How could she, after what I've done?)" And, of course, that would be him being disrespectful and arrogantly assuming that he has the right to do that to your words.

 

As difficult as it is, I would strongly urge you to just take his words at face value, debs. Be 100% honest with him, and just take what he says as his current truth. Of course it could change at any future point, but so could yours. You guys only have 'current' to go by, right now. And there is absolutely no value in turning your guesses and assumptions into "facts".

 

I don't know, debs. I get that your world is chaotic and nerve-wracking at the moment. Wish there was something I could do or say that would really make it any easier.

Sending Guidance, and hugs.

[Ariadne]

The guy is torn about leaving because of the children..

 

What does she say?

 

IF he makes a decision....to go....there is then no going back for me....its the end.....its not in any kind of harsh way I say that.....once the break is made, or if it is made, I will move on....and would never want to see him again

 

That is, he has to kiss those children goodbye.

[debs1971]

The guy is torn about leaving because of the children..

 

What does she say?

 

 

 

That is, he has to kiss those children goodbye.

 

Who is she...I do have a name? Or are you just that ignorant? Do you get off on trying to make others feel worse than they do....Hey let me tell you...I won't have my kids hurt ok? Not by my partner or anyone else, I have seen the damage a break up can do...I have been through this before, I have a 21 year old daughter and when my marriage broke up, she started self harming, she became very ill...so do not tell me or judge me, the protection is there for my children, and yes if he did leave, the contact with them would be broken, they already have split parents, why would I want to make things more difficult or complicated for them....? I came on here for advice good or bad, but I will not riduculed by you....keep your sacastic comments to yourself...

[debs1971]

Ronni

 

I appreciate your words....I have just posted back to someone else, not too happy with what SHE said....I came here for advice and I have got that from you...very helpful too I must add, you have pointed out things I have said that have not been correct, I have been able to read your post and relate to them, and understand...its very hard to type things as you would speak them, I have said things, and they have been misunderstood, but I have said things that have not been correct to say, think anger hits me at times.....I'm gonna take a couple of days to think long and hard, before responding to your reply....I just feel I don't have to jusitfy myself to anyone else, but myself and my partner.....and with my previous post, in response...its hard to tell the full story of things that have happened, in the past, especially with the children....they are so precious to me, and are my world....!

 

I don't want to have to come on here and defend myself, but in saying what I have, I know I will get people saying this, or people saying that, I have opened myself up....I have enough on my plate at the moment, than to have to start defending my actions and thoughts on here, whilst feeling like I am...I'll respond back to you very soon.

 

Thanks again....

 

Debs

x

[Ronni_W]

No probs, debs.

These are difficult times for you, and that's when all the senses go on high-alert -- your emotions are all over the place, and that is understandable and perfectly fine.

 

If I did say anything that triggered you to feel defensive or "bad' in any way, I am sorry for that. The last thing I would want is to add to your troubles.

 

In any case. Do what you need to do for yourself and your kids, and hang with everyone else, including me. At the end of the day, the person you're left with is you...so best make darn sure that is the one with whom you're feeling 100% okay, yes? Be good to your Self, first and foremost.

 

Hugs,

Ronni

[debs1971]

Well Ronni

 

He left today....he has given me hope all week, and we had a good weekend, but now I know he was lying to himself and to me.....hurts so much....and its over now...I know that, and after today I got to accept it.....I now must deal with this.....I know it won't be easy....the next couple of weeks, I know I will be all over the place..in my head....but I must now think of my kids and of myself.....my family now know, and as much as everyone has said to me, let him have his space....he might need time to think...as much as I don't want to give up on things, the dynamics have changed for me.....I don't want this anymore...as hurt and upset as I feel.....I cannot make somebody love me, nor can I be in a relationship with someone who doesn't want me.

 

Thanks for all your help Ronni...just a pity this had got to the stage it had!

 

Debs

x

[Ronni_W]

I'm sorry to hear that, debs.

I do wish you and your kids the best.

 

Not much else that can be said, really. Be gentle with yourself. Lean on your support network...and post in the 'coping' forum if/when that feels like a good thing to do.