Sparty97 Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 Why on earth doesn't a sexless marriage qualify as either "Abuse" or "Alienation of affection"? That would certainly help the victims from getting reamed in a divorce settlement would it not? I mean if one party has lived up to the marriage contract and the other has not why should the one who has not continue to benefit from the hardwork of the other? Flame away.
Fallen Angel Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 Why on earth doesn't a sexless marriage qualify as either "Abuse" or "Alienation of affection"? That would certainly help the victims from getting reamed in a divorce settlement would it not? I mean if one party has lived up to the marriage contract and the other has not why should the one who has not continue to benefit from the hardwork of the other? Flame away. I think that a lot of states have changed divorce laws so that there is really no reason to have to explain WHY the marriage is being disolved. In these No Fault states it simply doesn't matter why. The courts make decisions based solely on the facts, finances, children, joint property etc, none of the emotional baggage needs be dredged up, and everyone can just get on with life. I think it is a good system, and that every state should provide for No Fault divorces.
Author Sparty97 Posted October 26, 2009 Author Posted October 26, 2009 In principal that's great, but when you have to start writing an alimony check because you didn't want a roommate that's a bit ridiculous. I have no issue whatsoever with child support but alimony is a dated concept. Heck to some degree I even agree with splitting marital assets 50/50 but why should one spouse have to pay going forward? Is she gonna come over and do my laundry and cook me dinner (not that she does now).
Fallen Angel Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 In principal that's great, but when you have to start writing an alimony check because you didn't want a roommate that's a bit ridiculous. I have no issue whatsoever with child support but alimony is a dated concept. Heck to some degree I even agree with splitting marital assets 50/50 but why should one spouse have to pay going forward? Is she gonna come over and do my laundry and cook me dinner (not that she does now). I agree, alimony is an outdated concept in this age of equality. Unless you forced your spouse to stay home and not work. Perhaps EVERY marriage should have to start with a prenup... Personally I would love to be a stay at home wife and mother, but I couldn't imagine ever denying my partner sex either (within reason.. obviously I say no at times, and he does also). But if I chose to live a sexless life, I would not expect my partner to continue providing in his "husbandly duties" ie finacial support. Perhaps I am not typical though, I tend to be more old fashioned in my ideas about the difference between men and women and their roles and responsibilities in a relationship. *shrug*
ADF Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 "Alienation of affection" has a very specific legal definition, and is usually only applied in cases where a loved one--usually a spouse or child--is UNABLE to continue a relationship, usually due to death or permanent incapacity. The definition does not include those UNWILLING to share affection (at least not in most states). The good news is most states now allow no-fault divorce, so you do not have to concoct some nonsense to leave a bad marriage. I don't know what "reamed" means when you use it. Some people use "reamed" to refer to grossly unfair divorce settlments; others use it if they have to pay any kind of spousal or child support whatsoever.
mem11363 Posted October 26, 2009 Posted October 26, 2009 If you feel the marriage is truly unfair end it. Really. The longer the marriage the more money you part with. It sounds like you are getting frozen out - unless you have very honest communication about stuff including sex - you cannot fix a sexually broken marriage. Most cases - of sexlessness - the refuser is not willing to have a real discussion of the problem other then to just attack the requestor for being a bad person / not perfect. And in that situation there is no hope of repair except to say - I am divorcing you unless you can open up tell me what is broken and try to work through it. Even then low success rate. Why on earth doesn't a sexless marriage qualify as either "Abuse" or "Alienation of affection"? That would certainly help the victims from getting reamed in a divorce settlement would it not? I mean if one party has lived up to the marriage contract and the other has not why should the one who has not continue to benefit from the hardwork of the other? Flame away.
hopeful1980 Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 Sex most certainly can be affectionate, but not all sex is. I think of sex and affection as two separate things. What if the person who didn't want sex, gave lots of hugs, kisses, and cuddles? They certainly didn't withhold affection, they just wouldn't spread their legs as a show of it.
mem11363 Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 It is patronizing to say that withholding sex is not denial of affection. This is a marriage - not a bff relationship. If you find the other person so unapealing that you are willing to deny them this basic need - yes it is a need not a want - more on that below - then you should either free them to pursue this need outside the marriage or just end the marriage - be human. Because I can't speak for women - but for a man a sexless marriage is a type of abuse. A man feels loved - really loved - through sex. Just wired that way. Deny him sex over time and you really are denying him love. You can cook all the great dinners, be the best housekeeper, mother of the year etc, give the best hugs - and the average man would say: - Be a great mom - Be a great lover Everything else can be worked around, split, hired out, etc. Children denied love wither. Adults denied love wither in a less visible way, but they do slowly inexorably wither. >>>> The spread your legs comment is not nice. It has a mean spirited tone to it. Be aware of something. Every year more and more women wake up to discover that their husband - usually happens later in life - their husband - has decided that porn is just a less stressful way to orgasm. It isn't their first choice - but they have heard "no" one too many times. They have been talked to like their needs make them some kind of an animal once too often. And they stop asking. The thing is - some of them, at that point you can start asking them they just don't want to anymore. Too many negative experiences surrounding it. Sex most certainly can be affectionate, but not all sex is. I think of sex and affection as two separate things. What if the person who didn't want sex, gave lots of hugs, kisses, and cuddles? They certainly didn't withhold affection, they just wouldn't spread their legs as a show of it.
Fallen Angel Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 An alienation of affection lawsuit is one in which a spouse can sue a third party if his or her partner leaves the relationship for another person. To win, an alienation of affection lawsuit needs to prove that: Love between the married spouses must have existed.The marital love must have been alienated and destroyed. The third party's conduct has to be proved to be malicious interference with the marriage relationship.Most states in the United States have abolished this type of lawsuit as it is considered to be archaic and an unacceptable form of revenge. Historically, the alienation of affection law was based on the belief that a wife was the property of her husband. Therefore, when a woman was emotionally or sexually involved with another man, she was considered to have been stolen. Those who want the alienation of affection laws to remain believe that alienation of affection lawsuits protect traditional marriage. Also Known As: Criminal ConversationHeart Balm TortsRevengeSpousal TheftAs of January 2008, the only states in the United States that allow alienation of affection lawsuits are: Hawaii, Illinois, Mississippi, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Dakota, and Utah.
LucreziaBorgia Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 Perhaps EVERY marriage should have to start with a prenup... It is definitely getting to that point.
JamesM Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 As you already know, welcome to my world. Questions.... How long married? Ages? Children? Why do you think there is no sex? When did the lack of sex start? How often do you or don't you have sex? Anything else? Do you feel that there is any hope? Oh, I am going to Iowa next month,...anything you want me to say? And yes, I am a MSU fan, too.
Author Sparty97 Posted October 27, 2009 Author Posted October 27, 2009 Married 13yrs, I'm 40 she's 37. We have a 5 year old son. I just dont think sex crosses her mind, she enjoys it when we have it but everything else comes first. It started shortly after marriage. We were never wildcats but for the first few years of the relationship I could count on a few times a week anyway. Now it can be once a monce or often less. There was a period where we went nearly a year. 2 months is not at all uncommon. The funny part is when it does happen she is on the adventurous side. As for Iowa...I got nuthin'. As you already know, welcome to my world. Questions.... How long married? Ages? Children? Why do you think there is no sex? When did the lack of sex start? How often do you or don't you have sex? Anything else? Do you feel that there is any hope? Oh, I am going to Iowa next month,...anything you want me to say? And yes, I am a MSU fan, too.
hopeful1980 Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 I do not spoon my BFF. I don't stroke their hair or rub their knees. I don't give them back massages or foot rubs. It's not patronizing because there is plenty of sexual affection that goes no between a husband and wife that is NOT intercourse. You can give love without giving sex. It's unfortunate that you can't FEEL it without having sex, but it's most certainly given. It is patronizing to say that withholding sex is not denial of affection. This is a marriage - not a bff relationship. If you find the other person so unapealing that you are willing to deny them this basic need - yes it is a need not a want - more on that below - then you should either free them to pursue this need outside the marriage or just end the marriage - be human. Because I can't speak for women - but for a man a sexless marriage is a type of abuse. A man feels loved - really loved - through sex. Just wired that way. Deny him sex over time and you really are denying him love. You can cook all the great dinners, be the best housekeeper, mother of the year etc, give the best hugs - and the average man would say: - Be a great mom - Be a great lover Everything else can be worked around, split, hired out, etc. Children denied love wither. Adults denied love wither in a less visible way, but they do slowly inexorably wither. >>>> The spread your legs comment is not nice. It has a mean spirited tone to it. Be aware of something. Every year more and more women wake up to discover that their husband - usually happens later in life - their husband - has decided that porn is just a less stressful way to orgasm. It isn't their first choice - but they have heard "no" one too many times. They have been talked to like their needs make them some kind of an animal once too often. And they stop asking. The thing is - some of them, at that point you can start asking them they just don't want to anymore. Too many negative experiences surrounding it.
kevinconner Posted October 27, 2009 Posted October 27, 2009 Hey Sparty. Same boat here. The way I see it, she is content in the pattern for now. She has a husband with a stable job, the kids are well fed and hitting school and there is lots to do around the house, take care of things. It is, in her mind, an ideal marriage. Sex is on the back burner. She's doing too much around the house and in my situation, I think she is not happy with this role. She is a full time mother and a great wife, but having that sexual connection and energy in the bedroom isn't on the radar. We're in a holding pattern for now. The children need to hit around 8 or 9 before things calm down. What I am most afraid of is seeing what state our marriage is in once we get to this point. The one bit of advice I can give to you is that things won't change if you do not start getting out more. Dates are super tough, but the more you can plan one, the more you two can re-connect again. For me, I also get out, alone, when I can. Even if I just stop off at a book store or something. See what it is like out there, in the wild. Remember how hard it is to find someone you can live with....look around and see all the dudds out there.
1Angel Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 How awful if one partner could not have sex due to injury, illness or other circumstance which they did not have control over.
hopeful1980 Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 How awful if one partner could not have sex due to injury, illness or other circumstance which they did not have control over. Isn't it though? Since men are wired to feel love through sex, I guess they'd never feel loved again. Pity.
JamesM Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Isn't it though? Since men are wired to feel love through sex, I guess they'd never feel loved again. Pity. I think most men can distinguish between a woman who can't have sex yet wants to or a woman who CAN have sex but doesn't want to. One is a disability, while the other is a rejection.
Sam Spade Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 I think most men can distinguish between a woman who can't have sex yet wants to or a woman who CAN have sex but doesn't want to. One is a disability, while the other is a rejection. Yep, that's actually pretty much the definition of abuse - doing (or not doing) something in order to hurt somebody else (either purposefully, or out of laziness and selfishness), and nobody should be expected to put up with this. Sex is not an after thought. It is a right in a loving relationship. And I say it as someone that's not even that hung up on sex. Even so, the broad implications of sexual rejection would have me contemplate a divorce *very* quickly.
EnigmasMuse Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Oh yes I agree. And no one should have to put up with a spouse who wont to their share of helping out around the house or kids, acting like a child and that they are entitled to do something or have something just because they think they deserve it. Abuse of any kind, physical, mental/verbal/emotional etc. A spouse who wants sex or expects it ALL the time no matter how they might treat their partner etc. you know things like that is just plain inexcusable too, and should be brought up in a court of law as well, during a divorce or whatever, just a person who isn't getting any sex from their partner no matter the reason.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Never fails, and 95% of the times a woman..... BTW isn't that why you'd be in divorce court and using it in your "Ground's for Divorce"?????? Oh yes I agree. And no one should have to put up with a spouse who wont to their share of helping out around the house or kids, acting like a child and that they are entitled to do something or have something just because they think they deserve it. Abuse of any kind, physical, mental/verbal/emotional etc. A spouse who wants sex or expects it ALL the time no matter how they might treat their partner etc. you know things like that is just plain inexcusable too, and should be brought up in a court of law as well, during a divorce or whatever, just a person who isn't getting any sex from their partner no matter the reason.
Sam Spade Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Oh yes I agree. And no one should have to put up with a spouse who wont to their share of helping out around the house or kids, acting like a child and that they are entitled to do something or have something just because they think they deserve it. Abuse of any kind, physical, mental/verbal/emotional etc. A spouse who wants sex or expects it ALL the time no matter how they might treat their partner etc. you know things like that is just plain inexcusable too, and should be brought up in a court of law as well, during a divorce or whatever, just a person who isn't getting any sex from their partner no matter the reason. Well, yes. But, if you do some research around here you will notice that the *majority* of the sexless marriage threads are started by decent men who genuinely attempt to solve the problem - including by doing all of the above (and typically to no avail, while their wifes are perfectly happy with the status quo). In fact, while I applaud any effort to save a marriage, part of me wishes that many of the posters here were much less caring and understanding and dumped those hos already .
Toodamnpragmatic Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 Well, yes. But, if you do some research around here you will notice that the *majority* of the sexless marriage threads are started by decent men who genuinely attempt to solve the problem - including by doing all of the above (and typically to no avail, while their wifes are perfectly happy with the status quo). In fact, while I applaud any effort to save a marriage, part of me wishes that many of the posters here were much less caring and understanding and dumped those hos already . Maybe she was having sex in hopes he would help with the kids/house/chores..... Interesting that it didn't work either....
hopeful1980 Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 You know it's so unfortunate so many men around her aren't getting any. I think it's beginning to effect their perspective. Women know sex is important to men. That's one of the first things we learn and one of the few things we know for certain about men. YOU WANT SEX. We get it. So if we know this fact, we can deduce that women are not just being heartless when they refuse to have sex KNOWING how important it is to men. I suspect, that maybe just maybe, there were things that led up to the sexlessness in the marriage that perhaps caused the wife to lose interest. IME, which I admit is limited, the sex is the last thing to go. Unfortunately, when the sex goes it's usually the first time the husband realizes there is something wrong. Until then, he's blissfully unaware that his wife is unhappy in any way. Yeah, she may nag and complain, but hey we still get it on every other night so things aren't that bad. As soon as a woman becomes so emotionally shut off from her husband that she no longer wants to have sex with him, all of the sudden there's a problem. All of the sudden there are grounds for divorce based on "allienation of affection" when I submit "alienation of affection" may be the reason the marriage became sexless! As much as some wives seem clueless as to how crucial sex is to their husband, some husbands REFUSE to take any responsibilty in the decrease or lack of sex in the marriage. Everything is her fault and if she doesn't comply, there are grounds for divorce end of story. It is ridiculous the lack of empathy that goes on around here and the constant back and forth blaming of wives or husbands. Since when are husbands and wives enemies who don't want to make each other happy in the way they wanted to be happy? If I've learned one thing from LS it's that I had better learn how to do backflips in the bedroom regardless of how my husband treats me and regardless of whether I feel like having sex or not or he may become one of the confused and sexually frustrated men who come here day after day lamenting over the fact that their wives are neglecting them in the bedroom. It's like the #1 topic in this forum!
Sam Spade Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 I would agree with the above logic, if it wasn't for one little glitch: 1) those wifes are unhappy enough not to have sex with their husbands 2) but apparently not unhappy enough to leave the marriage So, things must not be so bad (for them), after all, eh?
hopeful1980 Posted October 28, 2009 Posted October 28, 2009 I would agree with the above logic, if it wasn't for one little glitch: 1) those wifes are unhappy enough not to have sex with their husbands 2) but apparently not unhappy enough to leave the marriage So, things must not be so bad (for them), after all, eh? Well, as a woman I have to say that we plot more than men. We may want to do something, but we take our time doing it. If I decided to leave my husband, I wouldn't do it this year. I'd wait until the kids were out of the house. Basically, I'd plan my exit strategy years in advance and just grin and bear my unhappiness for the sake my children. It doesn't seem that men have that much patience.
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