Guitarjeff Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 What's more painful is not always what's the worst behavior. You never asked about pain. As I said, real love doesn't allow you to betray after only 14 months. It's one thing to be married for 20 years and the people get bored because of the *staring in the eyes love* being gone and they get lonely of go through a mid life crisis. Betraying is still betraying, but when you are married only 15 months this tells me they should not have been married to begin with. It tells me that even the beginning maturity and commitment wasn't there to start with. You didn't ask me to tell you which was more painful. To me, a twenty year bond is far more legitimate than a 15 month bond. so yeah, there will be more pain in the 20 year marriage, but that doesn't mean that the 15 month marriage had even the basic maturity and foundation to even begin a lifetime partnership. 20 years and then infidelity tells me they at least had the beginning foundation to make a reasonable shot at a lifetime marriage, 15 months and infidelity means they never even had the basic maturity and love to even get married to start with. Something was wrong to begin with, betrayal isn't just a mistake, making a checkbook error is a mistake, cheating afgter 15 months on someone you were supposedly ready to devote your life to 15 months ago tells me there was something wrong from the gitgo. ok, now we started to disagree. lol. No, this is a good point that I dont necessarily agree with. betrayal/cheating is betrayal/cheating. Whether it happens 15 months into a marriage or 12 years later. What is worse ? 1) A couple gets married... Not much history, potentially no kids, no home, not much history, and one of the them cheats "early" in the marriage 2) A couple gets marrried, build and live a dream, buy a home together, have kids together, share and build history, plan and start to build their future, and then one of them cheats.... I believe the second scenario is more painful to get over because you question everything you have done together in life. And that can drive you nuts. I have trouble reconciling this scenario more than the first one. That is me. Dont get me wrong, the chances are very slim that one would stray in the early years of marriage. I agree. However, does that make the OP any more of a "bad person" than any other individual who betrayed ?. In either case, early or later, it is a terrible choice to make in a marriage. If anything the OP, hopefully, learnt a valuable lesson (possibly at the expense of her marriage and the devastation caused to her husband). Marriage is a committment...whether the vows are broken 15 months into or 12 years later, the result is the same.
Untouchable_Fire Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 I never said that I was going to put the blame on my husband nor play the victim. After telling my husband he was vivid and I can't be mad for his reaction. He is staying with his bro for awhile until he can figure out what he wants to do. You told him. That's a great step! At least now your being open and honest with what's going on. You have a right to fall out of love with someone. That's how life goes.
Guitarjeff Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 Also, you said this. "Dont get me wrong, the chances are very slim that one would stray in the early years of marriage. I agree. However, does that make the OP any more of a "bad person" Nowhere did I say the poster was a bad oerson. You are imparting a meaning to my words that was not there, and you even put quotes around it. My meaning was the the poster wasn't mature enough to commit to a lifetime partnership if she was able to cheat after 15 months. She also said in her post that she only married the guy because she didn't want to wait on the sidelines. You consider that a mature foundation for a marriage? I'll have to stick to my belief, 15 months and then infidelity tells me we have people getting married for the wrong reasons because real love and commitment wouldn't allow infidelity that soon.
65tr6 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) You are imparting a meaning to my words that was not there, and you even put quotes around it. I know you never said it. I put that in quotes not to highlight as something you said or even implied but to make my point. My meaning was the the poster wasn't mature enough to commit to a lifetime partnership if she was able to cheat after 15 months. She also said in her post that she only married the guy because she didn't want to wait on the sidelines. You consider that a mature foundation for a marriage?. We can agree to disagree on this. I don't see this poster any less mature than someone who cheats later on in the marriage. She could have married this guy for any reason or no reason. The point is she married him. Once she is married to someone, she is not expected to betray or cheat. Early or not. If you read some of the comments from waywards who cheat after say 12, 15, 20 years of their marriage, they almost always say "i married the wrong person", "i married for wrong reasons", "we are two different people", "i should have never married him/her", "I found my true love". All this after 20 years of life together. Is that a matured statement ? (again that is a rhetorical question i am not trying to put any words in your mouth). I am NOT defending OP by any means. It is just that I dont see any difference between cheating "early on" versus "later on". Both, in my opinion, indicate immaturity at the highest levels. I agree that the pain is much worse in the "later on" cheating. Edited October 30, 2009 by 65tr6
Guitarjeff Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 "I don't see this poster any less mature than someone who cheats later on in the marriage. " Again, not my point. I didn't say she herself was immature. I said that the relationship itself was not based on real, mature love and commitment. There's no way real, adult, committed love would allow for betrayal just 15 months later. If you are trying to say that real, adult, stable love and commitment would allow for infidelity 15 months later, then you should make this exact statement. We can agree to disagree on that, but please address exactly what I said and say exactly what you mean, or we are just running around in circles. My statement is very clear--I don't believe for a second that mature love and commitment by two adults could possibly have infidelity just 15 months later. It tells me that they were not ready to be married to begin with and that the marriage should not have happened. Again, are you saying that two people that get married could betray each other just 15 months later, and yet still believe they were in the kind of relationship that would call for a lifetime love, devotion and partnership? I know you never said it. I put that in quotes not to highlight as something you said or even implied but to make my point. We can agree to disagree on this. I don't see this poster any less mature than someone who cheats later on in the marriage. She could have married this guy for any reason or no reason. The point is she married him. Once she is married to someone, she is not expected to betray or cheat. Early or not. If you read some of the comments from waywards who cheat after say 12, 15, 20 years of their marriage, they almost always say "i married the wrong person", "i married for wrong reasons", "we are two different people", "i should have never married him/her", "I found my true love". All this after 20 years of life together. Is that a matured statement ? (again that is a rhetorical question i am not trying to put any words in your mouth). I am NOT defending OP by any means. It is just that I dont see any difference between cheating "early on" versus "later on". Both, in my opinion, indicate immaturity at the highest levels. I agree that the pain is much worse in the "later on" cheating. And many times I hear people say we had a stable, loving relationship for 20 years and got bored and made a big mistake. That's hardly the same thing as getting married and cheating just 15 months later. You aou are missing my meaning. You are thinking that I am saying that the cheating itself is worse for this person than it is for someone that's been married for 20 years. I'm not saying that at all. I am not talking about the actual cheating, I am talking about the maturity to even enter in to marriage to begin with and the foundation being very weak in a marriage that would allow cheating after only 15 months. Being married for 20 years with kids is a clear indication that they at least had a reasonable shot at a lifetime marriage, which tells me they were more prepared to engage in marriage to begin with. When I was married my wife and I were still head over heals in love after 3 or 4 years, still having sexual relations 3 or 4 times a week, nothing could get us apart. We were more prepared to enter in to a lifetime commitment than someone who could cheat and betray their spouse after only 15 months. One tells me that the two people had a more mature foundation and actually made a reasonable attempt at a lifetime marriage, the other tells me two people got married and weren't in a real, adult, committed love to begin with. I am not saying that the pain is somehow worse, the betrayal is somehow worse, or anything like that. I am saying that 15 month infidelity means that they never had a foundation to base a marriage on to begin with. Not saying she's a worse person as an individual than a cheater who cheats after 20 years of marriage. She simply wasn't in a relationship that should even be considered as marriage material to start with.
65tr6 Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 She simply wasn't in a relationship that should even be considered as marriage material to start with. ok, this time I will quote you. Let me get to specifics. I dont agree with you on this. If you think she is not marriage material, then what about the ones who cheat in the marriage at a later stage ? where do you draw the line ? 15 months, 25 months, 3 years, 5 years ? kids, no kids ? What if they dated for 5 years prior to their marriage, and then one of them cheats in the 15th month after the marriage ? Is that still "early" cheating ? I believe this is where we disagree. I am not going to sit here and judge if she is marriage material or not unless ofcourse she has a history of cheating in the past. She had her own reasons to marry him. At that time, she obviously thought it was the right thing to do. The point is, if she is willing willing to own up her bad choices, admit it, be open and honest about it, change for good, work on herself and does prove that she is indeed marriage material, why not welcome/encourage/embrace it ? And all this could happen in the existing relationship provided she is given the second chance.
Dexter Morgan Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 ok, this time I will quote you. Let me get to specifics. I dont agree with you on this. If you think she is not marriage material, then what about the ones who cheat in the marriage at a later stage ? once one cheats, they become non-marriage material, whether already married or not. where do you draw the line ? uh........at cheating. 15 months, 25 months, 3 years, 5 years ? kids, no kids ? cheating is cheating. What if they dated for 5 years prior to their marriage, and then one of them cheats in the 15th month after the marriage ? Is that still "early" cheating ? who cares if early or late......cheating is cheating. I am not going to sit here and judge if she is marriage material or not unless ofcourse she has a history of cheating in the past. if one is more than capable of cheating and has cheated, they are not marriage material. The point is, if she is willing willing to own up her bad choices, admit it, be open and honest about it, change for good, work on herself and does prove that she is indeed marriage material, why not welcome/encourage/embrace it ? thats for the husband to determine. only he can determine if there is anything encouraging or embraceable about any "efforts" she makes. but she still isn't marriage material.
Guitarjeff Posted October 30, 2009 Posted October 30, 2009 "I dont agree with you on this. If you think she is not marriage material," Again you got me wrong. I didn't say "SHE" herself was not marriage material, I said THE RELATIONSHIP between BOTH of them was not substantive enough to base a marriage on to begin with. " then what about the ones who cheat in the marriage at a later stage ? " If they lasted 20 years, maybe even have grown kids in college, it's clear to me that the foundation they had AT THE BEGINNING was far more substantive than a couple who couldn't even make it 15 months without infidelity. The infidelity itself is no worse, in fact I would even go to your other side and say the betrayal of the 20 year marriage is a worse act and a bigger betrayal because of the kids and long investment of time together, but that doesn't mean they were in a relationship at the beginning that is the equivalent of the relationship that could cheat after 15 months of the marriage, do you see? 15 months and infidelity didn't have a foundation to start with and they shouldn't even have attempted marriage if their feelings would wind up as infidelity in 15 short months. That's not a relationship to even begin a marriage on. "where do you draw the line ? 15 months, 25 months, 3 years, 5 years ? kids, no kids ?" No line need be drawn, it could be a gradual thing, the more time you invest and are able to raise your family and share your life, the better and more prepared for marriage your relationship was at the beginning. "What if they dated for 5 years prior to their marriage, and then one of them cheats in the 15th month after the marriage ? Is that still "early" cheating ?" To me it would be because dating and marriage are a lifetime commitment apart. "I am not going to sit here and judge if she is marriage material or not unless ofcourse she has a history of cheating in the past." And again I see this. I am not "judging" HER either, and never said I was I judged her RELATIONSHIP and claimed that it was not substantive enough to base a marriage on to begin with if infidelity could happen in 15 months. You continue to claim I am making a personal judgment about her as an individual, the amount of pain she caused as opposed to the amount of pain caused by a cheater in a 20 year marriage, and I have done nothing of the sort. "She had her own reasons to marry him. At that time, she obviously thought it was the right thing to do." This is irrelevant and has nothing to do with whether her relationship at the time of marriage was substantive enough to base a lifelong marriage on. "The point is, if she is willing willing to own up her bad choices, admit it, be open and honest about it, change for good, work on herself and does prove that she is indeed marriage material," again we have it "prove that she is marriage material"? I never said anything about her as an individual taken apart from her RELATIONSHIP with another individual. The relationship itself was not substantive enough to hold exclusivity for more than 15 months. That is not substantive enough to even enter in to the contract of marriage to begin with. let's boil this down. we have two relationships the day before marriage. Both parties claim to be in love and say they want to spend the rest of their life together. marriage A ends up in a 20 year marriage, raises two children who are now adults, have a happy marriage for maybe 18 of those years and then for whatever reason, boredom, lack of sex, there's an affair. Marriage B last 15 months, they don't go through but 15 months of trials and tribulations, 15 months that they should normally be in the happiest part of a lifelong marriage, and yet they have infidelity already. I am saying that to me, there's no way that relationship B (BEFORE MARRIAGE) was even close to being as substantive and prepared for marriage as relationship A before they got married. The two relationships are NOT EQUIVALENTS before they married when talking about being prepared and developed enough for the responsibilities of marriage. I don't know how much clearer I can make this. I am not saying that the poster as an individual is a bad person, or is anything. I am saying that her relationship was not substantive enough to even enter in to the contract of marriage if it has infidelity already after 15 months. I am not saying they cannot forgive, or try, or divorce, or anything else, do you see this? I am saying that their relationship was not as prepared for the commitment of marriage as relationship A before they got married, it's really that simple. If you disagree, that's fine, but in doing so you are saying the relationship before the 15 month infidelity marriage was the *equivalent* of the relationship before marriage of the two people who made it 20 years, two grown kids and such. You are saying that they had the equivalent preparedness for a life long commitment, and I simply don't know how you can accept that conclusion, but there's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree.
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