pain and confusion

[jennie-jennie]

Sure you are, you're disrespecting this man's partner, a women you have the nerve to talk to, but yet are messing around with HER partner.

Is that respectful?

 

The only sympathy you'll get here is from other cheaters

 

RedDevil, you can cheat on your husband or wife, but as far as I know you can't cheat on someone else's spouse, so why do you keep calling the OW/OM cheaters?

[jennie-jennie]

At what point did you understand that he was not going to choose? How far into the relationship and what gave you this realisation?

 

LOL I think I am still working on this.

 

Seriously, I still hope that my MM will be able to choose one day. A lot has happened with him since we started going together. In his own words it is like he is exploring his identity, like before he had been handed an identity by others, now he is finding out himself who he is. He said something very strong which was that the first year we were together it was like he had to watch his identity, the person he had thought he was, burn up. Hopefully this process will lead to him one day knowing what he wants and being able to have only one woman, whether it be his wife or me.

 

The first time I really began to understand that he had difficulty making a choice, was after we, after having had an emotional affair for nine months, went away on a trip together and for the first times had sex. This trip made me decide on him and I was prepared to leave my significant other, but he was not prepared to leave his wife.

 

Since then it has been a gradual process. My heart is screaming loudly that noone can love you like he does and not leave. My head is trying to learn as much as possible about how these men function and understand what is keeping him stuck.

 

We went non-contact this fall, because he wanted to work on his marriage. He said he needed at least 3 months. He came back after 6 days and said that he could not live without me, I was the centre of his world, and he did not want an affair. Fine, but it turns out he still could not choose.

 

I think it was at this point that it finally settled in that he may never become able to choose. But, as I said, I have still not given up hope, and will not do so, as long as he has not given up his desire and hope that he one day will be able to choose.

 

I am not leaving him any way, and having hope of a change makes me happier.

 

 

He's just perfect for me. Literally a dream come true. Feels like the other half of my soul, however funny it must sound to the 'sceptics'.

 

This is my experience as well. Still after four years.

[fooled once]

I beg to differ. I don't disrespect anyone and expect not to be disrespected. The same goes for judging.

 

I fail to see how anyone disrespected you.

 

You are defensive and taking it out on people who are telling you THEIR opinion.

 

We all are entitled to our opinion. When you share information on a site, you will get a little bit of everything. Those opinions you disagreed with, you came at them.

 

*shrug*

 

Take what you need and leave the rest.

 

But in order to get respect, you have to give respect. That little bit of advice should apply to all aspects of your life, like getting involved with someone who is already involved with someone else.

 

And if this is true

 

I'm not very involved in her life but have lived next door to her (in a way) for several years, so she chatted to me on many occasions and sometimes told me bits and pieces about her private life. Her behavior is generally weird, but maybe it is to be expected, considering her self-destructive lifestyle.

 

Isn't it interesting how the things you talked about is her sex life? very strange since you seem to know all about how often she is having sex and with who. And about how she is a destructive alcoholic who has no chance of ever finding someone else.

 

Good luck to you!

[jennie-jennie]

All I need to do is calm down, because I feel panicky and all over the place as I have no experience of being in this situation and I have an impression that I'm standing on a very shaky ground and it can be all over any moment.. It makes it difficult for me to give myslef space to step back and look at it a little more rationally, while the emotions are so strong.

 

If he feels as strongly as you do, he is not likely to go anywhere. My MM tried to break up with me innumerous times the first year, until he finally realized that he was not able to. Those rollercoasters had us reeling for a long time.

[DiDi123]

Ellin....

What can I do except give you lots of (((hugs)))

 

I'm here to listen and support you the best I can whatever you decide to do.

Please keep posting!

[Ellin]

I fail to see how anyone disrespected you.

That's your opinion and I have my own, for which I have given reasons twice already. I don't intend to repeat myself any more.

Isn't it interesting how the things you talked about is her sex life? very strange since you seem to know all about how often she is having sex and with who. And about how she is a destructive alcoholic who has no chance of ever finding someone else.

 

Good luck to you!

If you find it interesting then good for you. She told me herself without me asking that they were not intimate. She must have had her own reasons for doing that but I'm not going to go into this. She mentioned it at least three times over the last couple of years, as far as I remember, and this is a fact whether you believe me or not and whether it makes you uncomfortable or not. I am not going to try and convince you or repeat myself in this aspect neither.

 

From what he tells me and from what I see myself (regularly intoxicated) she is an alcoholic. And if you want to pick on my every word, then at least get what I wrote right. I said she has no chance of finding a better man then him.

 

Good luck to you too.

[Ellin]

Sure you are, you're disrespecting this man's partner, a women you have the nerve to talk to, but yet are messing around with HER partner.

Is that respectful?

 

The only sympathy you'll get here is from other cheaters

 

I think personal attacks and judgements are against the rules of this forum and I was going to ignore it. I said in response to your earlier post that I don't judge others (as no one is without blame) and expect not to be judged. But it can actually be quite interesting.

 

Applying your "logic" - that I can be disrespected by others because I "disrespect" someone else - then why should I respect her anyway? She is the one who once messed around behind her sick husband's back and then walked out on him and their four children, the youngest only about 9, and went off with a younger man. If you're not a hypocrite go ahead and condemn her. Can you do this?

 

.....Shall I carry on?..

[Ellin]

Oh, and one more thing, Fooled Once.

 

What I find interesting is how ready you are to take anything negative I say about my situation as truth but when it comes to negative statements about his relationship with his partner you have so much trouble believeing.

[Montclair0011]

Ellin,

 

To the outside observer this is quite a mess and it seems the obvious course of action would be for you to run far away and find someone closer in age and more available. Major red flags all over the place.

 

But, of course, it is so much easier to tell people what they should do when you are not standing in their shoes. If I were standing in your shoes and really, really wanted this guy I would suggest the following.

 

1. Get him to go see a therapist. He seems too terrified or overwhelmed to make any changes on his own. This has been going on for so long and he knows how to deal with this, bizarre as it may seem. Being with a younger, more independent woman, however, is uncharted territory. There is also the problem of leaving a dependent woman who will likely be destroyed. This is no small issue, and it would be helpful if he could make an exit plan that did not just leave her in a total lurch.

 

A good therapist will help him sort out what he really wants and a plan of action and encorage him to have the courage to see it through.

 

2. I would suggest the same for you. You need to explore why you are involved with a guy like this and to figure out what you need to do so. What you don't want to do is end up waiting around for this guy to leave for eternity, which is probably what would be most comfortable for him. You may, however, spur him on to some action (perhaps only to have him run back again), but no matter if it sinks or swims, this is not going to be an easy.

 

3. Follow all the advice above for making a timeline, and letting him know how long you are willing to wait for him. Stick to it. If he refuses to get help, I'd recommend just breaking it off and moving on. Read all the threads on NC. This is not a DIY situation. With professional help you might have a chance with this guy--although you might also be able to realize you want something more.

[2sunny]

if HE wants to change it he will - when HE gets tired of it enough (he may never get tired of it enough though).

 

until then, YOU need to figure IF YOU are willing to accept the situation as it is - especially if it never changes... is it enough for you if it stays the same forever?

[Ellin]

LOL I think I am still working on this.

 

Seriously, I still hope that my MM will be able to choose one day. A lot has happened with him since we started going together. In his own words it is like he is exploring his identity, like before he had been handed an identity by others, now he is finding out himself who he is. He said something very strong which was that the first year we were together it was like he had to watch his identity, the person he had thought he was, burn up. Hopefully this process will lead to him one day knowing what he wants and being able to have only one woman, whether it be his wife or me.

 

The first time I really began to understand that he had difficulty making a choice, was after we, after having had an emotional affair for nine months, went away on a trip together and for the first times had sex. This trip made me decide on him and I was prepared to leave my significant other, but he was not prepared to leave his wife.

 

Since then it has been a gradual process. My heart is screaming loudly that noone can love you like he does and not leave. My head is trying to learn as much as possible about how these men function and understand what is keeping him stuck.

 

We went non-contact this fall, because he wanted to work on his marriage. He said he needed at least 3 months. He came back after 6 days and said that he could not live without me, I was the centre of his world, and he did not want an affair. Fine, but it turns out he still could not choose.

 

I think it was at this point that it finally settled in that he may never become able to choose. But, as I said, I have still not given up hope, and will not do so, as long as he has not given up his desire and hope that he one day will be able to choose.

 

I am not leaving him any way, and having hope of a change makes me happier.

Thank you for telling me about all this, Jennie-Jennie. I'm sorry it's so difficult for you and hope and wish you that it will get sorted out one day in a way, which would be best for everyone involved. I understand your feelings and I'm glad that you have found - as it seems - some peace in what you're going through.

 

You mentioned having sex after nine months of emotional affair. Could you tell me how it affected you and your realtionship with him? I haven't had sex yet with my MM (stands for middle man, as he's not married, right?).

 

Thank you for your support and lots of hugs for you.

[Ellin]

If he feels as strongly as you do, he is not likely to go anywhere. My MM tried to break up with me innumerous times the first year, until he finally realized that he was not able to. Those rollercoasters had us reeling for a long time.

 

You're right. If he feels the same way he probably won't just suddenly disappear from my life (although it's more likely to happen than in a "normal" relationship). And if he doesn't feel the same way then there's nothing I could do apart from accepting it.. Thank you!!

 

He has not tried to break up with me so far but I have tried several times and he did not try to stop me, but every time we got back in touch again..

[Ellin]

Ellin....

What can I do except give you lots of (((hugs)))

 

I'm here to listen and support you the best I can whatever you decide to do.

Please keep posting!

Thank you so much for visiting my thread and offering support Didi, when you have so much to deal with right now.

 

As I can see you are also a fresh member. It's good to have found this forum as it does help.

 

Hugs for you too. If I could meet you I'd squeeze the life out of you.

[Ellin]

if HE wants to change it he will - when HE gets tired of it enough (he may never get tired of it enough though).

 

until then, YOU need to figure IF YOU are willing to accept the situation as it is - especially if it never changes... is it enough for you if it stays the same forever?

Thanks for your reply 2sunny.

 

No, it's not enough if it stays the same way. All throughout this time my head has been telling me every day ten times a day to run away from it, but my heart could not follow that advice and I don't think that resisting and fighting very strong emotions is a good way to deal with things in difficult times. Taking action may cause some changes and changes in reality cause changes in emotions in a way that may be easier to get sorted out. This is what I'm hoping for.

 

Hope it makes sense.

[jennie-jennie]

Ellin, I am actually quite happy with my MM. I want more, that is a fact, my needs are not met as much as I would wish. But I feel loved and am for the most part happy.

 

How did having sex change our relationship? It is strange because although our relationship in the beginning was totally an EA - we did not kiss and he never even saw as much as one of my nipples - our relationship was totally permeated by sex. There was so much sexual tension between us. This was a very sexual period of my life. Our words were loaded with desire.

 

For me those five days away on that trip when we first had sex made me decide he was the one. I would have ended it directly with my SO when I came home, if only MM had been prepared to do so with his wife. Now my relationship with my SO continued for yet half a year, although my focus was more and more on MM, until it was impossible for me to continue with my SO. (He was aware of my relationship with MM all the time, in case anyone wonders.)

 

For MM it was a major step having sex with me. He had been faithful to his wife for the 15 years or so they had been married. For him this was the beginning of moving closer and closer to me, and further and further away from his wife. He has said that once he took this step he could not go back, in the sense that he had to realize that he was in fact having an EMR. I guess he means that an EA can be denied just as a fantasy, but a PA can't.

 

As women, we do bond closely to the men we have sex with. It has to do with our hormones.

 

For both me and MM it was a big step to take a new lover. We are middle age and had both been faithful for a very long time to our respective partners.

[Ellin]

Ellin,

 

To the outside observer this is quite a mess and it seems the obvious course of action would be for you to run far away and find someone closer in age and more available. Major red flags all over the place.

 

But, of course, it is so much easier to tell people what they should do when you are not standing in their shoes. If I were standing in your shoes and really, really wanted this guy I would suggest the following.

 

1. Get him to go see a therapist. He seems too terrified or overwhelmed to make any changes on his own. This has been going on for so long and he knows how to deal with this, bizarre as it may seem. Being with a younger, more independent woman, however, is uncharted territory. There is also the problem of leaving a dependent woman who will likely be destroyed. This is no small issue, and it would be helpful if he could make an exit plan that did not just leave her in a total lurch.

 

A good therapist will help him sort out what he really wants and a plan of action and encorage him to have the courage to see it through.

 

2. I would suggest the same for you. You need to explore why you are involved with a guy like this and to figure out what you need to do so. What you don't want to do is end up waiting around for this guy to leave for eternity, which is probably what would be most comfortable for him. You may, however, spur him on to some action (perhaps only to have him run back again), but no matter if it sinks or swims, this is not going to be an easy.

 

3. Follow all the advice above for making a timeline, and letting him know how long you are willing to wait for him. Stick to it. If he refuses to get help, I'd recommend just breaking it off and moving on. Read all the threads on NC. This is not a DIY situation. With professional help you might have a chance with this guy--although you might also be able to realize you want something more.

Thank you so much Montclair0011!!!!

 

You got right to the bottom of it with amazing insight, clarity, wisdom and understanding. I couldn't put it any better, or even that well myself.

 

I agree with every word.

 

I also understand that I can't help him if he doesn't want to help himself, just as he can't help her if she doesn't want to help herself. By accepting her behavior and standing by her he is enabling her to carry on. That means that she carries on in her self-destructive ways, not having incentives to change, but he only slows down the process and in effect is going down with her, because of the all-consuming nature of the problem. The same analogy applies to him and me. If I stand by and accept the way things are I will also follow him in the downwards direction. Right??

 

I just can't express well enough how helpful your post is. It gives me a lot to think about and a platform to bounce off from.

 

I WANT TO THANK EVERYONE for your amazing support. It helped me calm down a little and see things in a more clear, orderly way. It also gave me more strength and courage. What a lovely people and lovely place to be.

 

Sending love to you all.

[Ellin]

Ellin, I am actually quite happy with my MM. I want more, that is a fact, my needs are not met as much as I would wish. But I feel loved and am for the most part happy.

I'm glad to hear that and it's an inspiration for me. I admire your patience, acceptance and harmony and in your posts I sense a lot of sensivity towards the feelings all the people involved in you life.

 

I should have written that I'm sorry it was so difficult for you at times.

How did having sex change our relationship? It is strange because although our relationship in the beginning was totally an EA - we did not kiss and he never even saw as much as one of my nipples - our relationship was totally permeated by sex. There was so much sexual tension between us. This was a very sexual period of my life. Our words were loaded with desire.

That is just exactly what I experienced. For the first two months (or slightly more) of regular contact we only texted and talked on the phone. The things he was saying to me made me feel more intense passion and physical sensation than anything that had ever happened before with anyone else in "real life"...

For me those five days away on that trip when we first had sex made me decide he was the one. I would have ended it directly with my SO when I came home, if only MM had been prepared to do so with his wife. Now my relationship with my SO continued for yet half a year, although my focus was more and more on MM, until it was impossible for me to continue with my SO. (He was aware of my relationship with MM all the time, in case anyone wonders.)

 

For MM it was a major step having sex with me. He had been faithful to his wife for the 15 years or so they had been married. For him this was the beginning of moving closer and closer to me, and further and further away from his wife. He has said that once he took this step he could not go back, in the sense that he had to realize that he was in fact having an EMR. I guess he means that an EA can be denied just as a fantasy, but a PA can't.

 

As women, we do bond closely to the men we have sex with. It has to do with our hormones.

 

For both me and MM it was a big step to take a new lover. We are middle age and had both been faithful for a very long time to our respective partners.

I read this with great interest as I am not sure what to do in regards to progressing to having a physical relationship. I want it very much, but also feel afraid and hesitant.

 

Thanks for sharing this with me! It's very helpful to hear about experiences of other people in similar situation.

[DiDi123]

Oh Ellin- thanks! We need all the hugs we can get, huh

 

How are things today? Did you see/speak to him?

Are you ok without spending Thanksgiving with him?

 

Can I ask how old your kids are? I have no children and will definately now ever be able to have them. I feel like I missed that very important phase in my life...but I can't cry about that anymore.

 

(((((hugs)))))

[fooled once]

You can get mad at me all you want.

 

My point is:

 

you seem to know so much about this woman who you claim to have only spoken to a few times.

 

you seem to have a lot of disdain for her; could that be because she has the guy you want?

 

You are 2 months into something that will probably end in major heart ache for you. You aren't sleeping with him yet. To sleep with him will only make it that much harder for when this ends.

 

He is not married to a woman who he doesn't live with, has no kids with, has no financial ties to. Yet he claims to love you and want to be with you. Yet he stays in a relationship with a woman who you claim is an alcoholic, weird and a cheater herself.

 

you seem to think I am backing this woman. Hardly. Don't know her, don't care to. BUT she is in a relationship with someone who is cheating on her, lying to her and making a fool of her. I feel sorry for her because she doesn't deserve that - no one does.

 

I firmly believe if he wanted to be with you and ONLY you, he would be. ESPECIALLY since he has NO TIES whatsoever with her. NOTHING is keeping him with her; except HIM.

 

so maybe you should explore THAT instead of tearing her down.

 

Maybe you should look at HIM and what is wrong with him since he stays with such a bad person.

 

What does that say about him? To me, it says he cares about her a hell of a lot more than he is telling you. And just because they don't have sex doesn't meant they aren't committed to each other. You claim you and he care deeply for each other and you two have never had sex.

 

You have been 'dating' this committed man for 2 months yet you said you have tried several times to break it off.... and he hasn't stopped you. what does that say to you? What would you say to another poster who is posting what you are posting? Wouldn't you say "RUN" to that person??

 

So if you need to be pissed and be snarky to me, that's fine. I can take it. I understand you are pissed at the situation, you are hurting and you just want him to yourself.

 

Tell him to make a choice. Tell him you won't be sneaking around anymore. Tell him if he wants to take your relationship to the next level, he has to end the relationship with her.

 

I hate to see ANY person in pain... and it is evident you are hurting. I do feel bad for you because you are hurting. But you can change that - you can control YOU and your actions/reactions. You can't change him, you can't control him but you can remove yourself from all this, if you wanted to.

[OWoman]

Sounds like she beat him to it - there doesn't seem an awful lot out there left to wreck....

 

I'm not sure if I understand what you meant by that.

 

You wrote...

He told me that he feels desperately sorry for her and if he leaves her, it will wreck her life. He also told me that his biggest worry is that he's too old for me and that's

...implying that he was worrying about wrecking his GF's life. My comment was merely that she'd already done a pretty good job of wrecking her life herself - from what you describe, with her drinking and her neglect. There doesn't seem an awful lot left to wreck - how much worse could it conceivably get?!?

[OWoman]

Tell him to make a choice. Tell him you won't be sneaking around anymore. Tell him if he wants to take your relationship to the next level, he has to end the relationship with her.

 

While this makes objective sense, it would only work if Ellin is at the point where either (a) she thinks she has a pretty good chance of being chosen - and the depth of his loyalty / obligation / inertia with his GF suggests that there's no certainty on this; or (b) Ellin is at the point where, should he not leap at the chance to choose her, she'd be willing to walk away. I don't see evidence in her post that she's there - at least, not yet. She's not prepared to hang around forever on the off-chance of him changing his mind and choosing her, but she's not yet about to dump him if he doesn't choose her immediately. So giving him any kind of ultimatum is not going to work. He may very well choose continued loyalty to his GF, and Ellin would then be forced with having to make good on her threat to dump him - against what she herself wants - or to climb down, and create the impression that her threats are empty and that basically he can do whatever he chooses around her. I don't see anything to be gained from that, at this point.

 

Rather, I think a timeline is a safer idea - whether or not it's communicated to anyone but herself (and I'm wary of setting a deadline for him with it, for those same reasons above - it forces HER to make a choice at that point, as much as him, whether she's ready or not). At that point, deciding whether to move on and cut one's losses, and look for someone else out there who could meet one's needs... or to settle for the less-than-optimal-but-better-than-nothing scenario that is on offer, on a long-term (possibly permanent) basis, at least forces one to confront rationally the odds of the situation, having given the players (the MM, and herself) a fair chance to deliver on expectations.

 

Ellin - it's your life. Ultimately you're the only one you'd be short-changing in not living it to the fullest according to what you want and hope for. So the timelines, goals or anything else are yours alone. You need to do what YOU can best live with, whichever way. One day when you're sitting in nappies in the nursing home, thinking back, you'll want the best memories and the fewest regrets. That's what needs to guide your actions now.

 

Hang in there!

[jennie-jennie]

Very well written, OWoman. I stand behind every word of your post above.

[wheelwright]

Hi Ellin

 

I sympathise with the feeling you have that you can't split with MM the way you feel right now. I have been there.

 

I think you have two puzzles. 1. How do you deal with this situation - and I think OWoman has given good advice here. Timeline it. Get to know him better. Be careful to try to see his bad points. Think about the long term compatibility while enjoying some happy times with him now. I understand that soulmate connection all to well. But I learned the hard way it doesn't mean you are destined to be together.

 

2. You want to try to understand his relationship with your neighbour, so that you can assess when/if/why not he will leave. I think you need to prepare yourself for the possibility that he may not choose love. He may not choose happiness. He may choose responsibility, especially as he seems to be self-deprecating and may have issues that mean he feels he doesn't deserve to be happy.

 

But by far the most important thing I want to say to you is that DDay (which may hit you out of the blue - you may not be expecting it at all) will be a COMPLETE NIGHTMARE in this situation. For you and his very vulnerable GF. The pain of that occurence would knock the socks off any anguish you're feeling now. You are playing with fire, and the very least you can do is move away from his GF. To protect yourself and her.

 

I really think you need to call it off with him if you can't move away. It would kill his GF to find out, but that doesn't mean he won't confess at some guilty moment. This is a very serious point. And given the way he feels responsible for her troubles now, imagine how he will cleave to her once he himself has caused her pain. He is a compassionate man.

 

In my A, I never considered the possibility of DDay in a realistic way. But it happened. Prepare yourself.

 

Good luck with whatever you do. These situations are very difficult.

[Ellin]

you seem to know so much about this woman who you claim to have only spoken to a few times.

If you live next door to someone for several years and speak to them from time to time you do know a lot about them.

you seem to have a lot of disdain for her; could that be because she has the guy you want?

I don't think I have attacked her personally in whatever I have written here, even thought I could have said a lot more. I only stated simple facts.

 

He is not married to a woman who he doesn't live with, has no kids with, has no financial ties to. Yet he claims to love you and want to be with you. Yet he stays in a relationship with a woman who you claim is an alcoholic, weird and a cheater herself.

It's not quite correct that they don't live together. She spends daytime in her flat and stays with him overnight. Apart from that what ties them together is the 15 years or so and everything that happened during this time, including routines, friends and family settings. And as I stated he took on himself the responsibility for her drinking and other problems.

 

 

What does that say about him? To me, it says he cares about her a hell of a lot more than he is telling you.

He never told me that he didn't care about her. He's starighforward and direct in what he says and always told me things as they were. If anything, he at first tried to tell me that everything was fine in his relationship, before, gradually, started to admit that there were many problems, as if he was ashamed.

[Ellin]

My comment was merely that she'd already done a pretty good job of wrecking her life herself - from what you describe, with her drinking and her neglect. There doesn't seem an awful lot left to wreck - how much worse could it conceivably get?!?

 

Oh now I understand what you meant. You're right, but now she's leaning on him, which probably makes him feel that if he stops holding her, she'll fall, so to speak.