myopicthought Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) I'm sorry this is so long, I tried to shorten it as much as I could. Backstory We were together for a year. He is my first and only real love. That all ended around January 2008, when he left me for someone else. It was a really long road, but I finally got over him entirely by November. In January 2009, I hear he wants to be good enough to get back with me. We become friends who keep trying to stop hooking up till February 2009, when I told him I had feelings, and not to call me at all until April, so I could get over him again. March, we have a long open conversation about our past/our current feelings, and he tells me that he loves me and thinks he's still in love me. He decides we should (his terminology) "date casually, but exclusively"? At first it's okay, but then I got clingy and ignored my life, like in our relationship. Breaks it off by May. Says things like, “I’m pretty sure you are THE one for me, but we fight so much and it won’t work,” sometimes. He lives with me over the summer after he got kicked out of his place. We start start the "non-label" cycle again, but also fighting more due to living with each other. July, I ask if he thinks we can give dating a shot again, and he says no: I'm still too needy, we fight too much and his life is not where he wants it to be (he's homeless in his mind). He tells me I’m free to see other people, which hurts. We have a REALLY huge blowout at the beginning of August, where he calls me psycho over something I did. A few days later, he comes to me and says he's been depressed all day for all the mean things he said to me, and that I mean a lot to him and that he's sorry. A couple weeks later we each move into new apartments. August-October Ever since then, we have not had any blowouts, nor have we barely bickered at all. Over the last three weeks, we have been hanging out like 6 days/week. We’ve been constantly spending the night in each others’ beds, cuddle every night and every morning (to the point where he was almost late for work the last couple of mornings because he didn’t want to leave), and have been having sex intermittently (so the cuddling isn’t just a device to lead to that), which just felt more…tender. We tell each other about our days, support/care about each other, and are touchy-feely and flirty with each other. He wants to plan a trip to Europe with me and get a tattoo with me, both next year (which I don't understand why he wants to do this with me if he's not into me). The only things that are missing are him actually saying “I love you” (which he would say constantly in our actual relationship a year and a half ago), and kissing me when we’re not having sex. I felt things were developing, so on Friday, I asked him what he considered us to be and he said just friends. He doesn’t want a relationship right now, with anyone. That it’s not me, it’s him (oh god, that sentence made me cringe). He made all of these excuses that, “we live so far away now and we hang out so late, we just want to pass out in each others’ beds” and that “it’s hard not to cuddle with you when we’re in bed watching a movie together”, even though we rarely did before things started getting good! I know he's not hooking up or flirting with other girls at all. I asked him what made him not want to date, and he said the idea of dating made him not want to date. He said he tried to tell me that in July, and to not "wait it out" because he has no idea how long it will be. He said: - That I’m still calling too often (even though I’m calling as much as him) and that I need to let him come to me - That nights he doesn't call, I do and he doesn't have enough alone time because he doesn't want to hurt my feelings and turn me down (even though I haven't gotten hurt about that in months, AND he always says he's okay spending this much time together when I ask him directly) - That I plan stuff too far in advance, so he can't be blamed for breaking plans for out-of-town friends (but I can't remember the last time I did that where it wasn't time-specific, like a concert) - That he can promise he's not going to get with anyone right now - That he feel he isn't just getting something for free from me (sex) and he's in this limbo with me because I said I could not be friends ever, then tried to convince me that accepting feelings and sticking around is mature (???) - That we should stop having sex and that he was fine “with not having sex with you until we end up dating or...I guess never having sex again” - Not to take this as a sign to wait, but that he hopes he won't realize he's making a mistake the minute I start dating someone I said I’ll be fine if he doesn’t contact me at all for a week and to stop worrying. He says, “that’s the point, we aren’t together, so I could not contact you for a month and it’s okay.” He's said this before, except he's never shown any intention of doing it. I feel significant because he doesn’t hang out with even his good friends very often, only a couple times a month, if that. He’s told me that he feels really comfortable with me, and that hanging out with other people feels like work sometimes, but not really with me. Now We tried to hang out Saturday, but I kept choking back tears, or being snippy, or just napping. Eventually he noticed the crying, and I said that being around him was depressing me and wanted to go home, and canceled my plans with him for that night. Sunday he called just to catch up (which we don't normally do on the phone) and told me to feel better. Then he called me later to tell me about a random thing he had seen, also out of character. Monday he called earlier in the day, on his break (which he never does, only after work) to ask me to hang out later and I said I was busy with school. ++++ I can't tell if this is BS or legit. If he's ever going to be ready for me. It feels like he's had enough time. I don't know if I'm hindering whatever development he wants. It's just that it's coming up on one year since he got broken up with. He's really worth it to me. I would be fine if we were even working towards something in his mind, but we seem to be at a standstill according to him. He seems to be putting a lot of effort into keeping me around if he doesn't want me. It's really hard to tell him I'm busy. I think I will put him off for the rest of the week, then talk to him on Monday and explain that I think I've been better about calling/plans lately and that he's focusing on my actions from before, and that I don't understand his fear of dating as there's not a lot of a difference between a relationship and what we're doing. Also that his worry about letting me go being a mistake is telling of something. Then tell him I'm taking a month either way to get my life back in order, to not answer now and think about it, and to leave me alone until I contact him, or he changes his mind. That way I'm either starting to get my life fleshed out again (I spend too much time with him and was trying to cut down before we had this talk anyways) and starting to kinda move on, without admitting it to myself yet, because it hurts. Or maybe he'll realize he misses me and wants me like how it happened in March? I would love that to happen, but I'm really starting to think it won't and that depresses me. That's also why I don't want to be around him for this month. Seeing him and knowing I might never have him again is killing me. Thoughts??? Edited October 13, 2009 by myopicthought
Author myopicthought Posted October 13, 2009 Author Posted October 13, 2009 Oh my gosh, nevermind! After editing this thing so many times and seeing the WHOLE story laid out, not just the last couple of months, I get it! He needs space. Like moreso than a normal person because I've been so needy in the past past and immediate past. Doesn't matter if we're doing good now, and that I feel I'm not calling him too much anymore or whatever. Clearly I am, for now, and the amount of time spent together is smothering him, despite him saying he's fine that we're hanging out that often. For awhile I need to pretty much never initiate calling him/hanging out and be a little more unavailable, because it needs to get balanced out. And I need to get my hobbies and friends back in check so I'm not needy. He's already rewarded my not really interacting the last couple of days by trying to get my attention. He dug on me when he first saw me after a year and I was all resisting him, he dug on me after I didn't talk to him for a month while trying to get over him, and he is possibly (?) trying to tell me to move on in hopes that it will make me less needy and focused on him in the process? I don't know. I could be off base and he really just doesn't want to date anyone, but some of his behavior is so peculiar for that to be entirely true to me.
Flying Burrito Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) MyopicThought, I've been that guy. A couple years back, my ex might have written your post verbatim. Here is your bottom line: I asked him what he considered us to be and he said just friends. He doesn’t want a relationship right now, with anyone. I've said that to my ex and all those other things in your post and I meant them when I said them. The best thing you can do for yourself is to take this statement as blatant truth. He is drawing the line at just friends for himself and for you. Period. If I could go back in time and give anonymous, friendly advice to my ex, I would tell her what I'm about to tell you. Walk away. Hang with your other friends. Date someone new. Lose his number. Let go of your hopes with this guy again. He doesn't have anything to offer you as of now. I don't think he means you any harm. He can't, and because he can't, he won't, give you more or different at this stage in his life. And nothing you can do or say will change that because he has to figure out what he wants his life to look like for himself. He very likely meant it when he says its him, not you. He's telling you very clearly, it's all about him. Accept it and go back to your No contact or extremely low to no contact. No contact worked as a healing tool for YOU once already so you know you can move forward in YOUR life from the place where you are now. You could be my ex from years back. Have a hug from me.(((Hug))) Edited October 13, 2009 by Flying Burrito
Author myopicthought Posted October 13, 2009 Author Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) I want to believe you. I just don't understand some of his behaviors. For one, advice columns always seem to make "I don't want to date right now" equivalent to "I just don't want to date YOU right now". Which is kinda bad too, but at least I could've done something with it, because I know my flaw and want to work on it either way. I'm also skeptical, because when he broke up with me, after he kissed the other girl and we tried to work through it, he pulled the "I'm not good enough for you" card, then when I kept telling him he was good enough, he used the "I can't work on myself inside a relationship" and "it's me, not you." Then he just skipped off and had a new girlfriend within a week and didn't work on himself at all. I know there's no one else this time (I was really correctly suspicious that other time), but I have a hard time taking these lines at face value anymore, because I defended those lines as truth at the time, but I was just another desperate fool like anyone who hears them and believes that there's nothing broken about themselves that would make someone want to leave. It's THEM. Why did he try to convince me that we should continue hanging out, sans sex, and that me somehow learning to accept that fact while still being around him was the adult thing to do. When I kept telling him I don't want to be around him, and that he depresses me. And has continued calling me to hang out, even moreso and with more effort than usual, despite my crying and leaving abruptly on Saturday. It just seems like a lot of effort to keep something so complicated like me around. Also, he actually had concrete things to say about his life that he didn't like when he told me this back in July. He had nothing to say now, aside from the idea of dating turned him off from dating. I told him I get if it's that he wants to be single for once, but that he's taking a shortcut by doing this with me and he's not really "single" in that sense of healing or whatever (he's a serial monogamist). I remember him seeming to agree, but he didn't elaborate and I came up with the answer for him, as opposed to last time it being, "you're still needy and we fight way too much and I'm pretty much broke and I'm practically homeless because I'm living with you and this thing about money and that thing about not making time for skateboarding or art and this thing about not seeing some of my friends back home in a long time". Edited October 13, 2009 by myopicthought
Flying Burrito Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 MyopicThought, I think it is difficult for some people to understand because there isn't a lot there to BE understood in the first place. What is key for you to understand is that the dude made a decision. His decision is that he doesn't want a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. Why does he want you in his life? Because you're great. You're funny, he has a good time with you. You smell nice and he thinks you look really cute in the morning when you're droolly. None of which changes his decision about not being together (together-together as a boyfriend) with you.
Surfer Girl Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 He sounds like a Cp. Once the challenge is over and you revert back to being needy..... The chase is done and then he gets control again..... That is where boundries set in... and you have to be strong in your conviction of what it is you really want and not divert from that!!!! perhaps you both have not really changed enough in yourselves to realize to revert back to the same problems will end up the same way.....
LexiB Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 MyopicThought, I think it is difficult for some people to understand because there isn't a lot there to BE understood in the first place. What is key for you to understand is that the dude made a decision. His decision is that he doesn't want a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. Why does he want you in his life? Because you're great. You're funny, he has a good time with you. You smell nice and he thinks you look really cute in the morning when you're droolly. None of which changes his decision about not being together (together-together as a boyfriend) with you. Wow, Excellent advice.
Angel1111 Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 The problem is that, yes, he needs his space and this isn't an issue that can just be pushed aside - however, the other problem is that the two of you have a connection and the more you allow him to use you (which is what is happening), the more he will feel guilty about how his behavior confuses you and makes you cry. Guilt will not win him over, it will only drive a bigger wedge between the two of you. He isn't purposely using you but as long as YOU allow this kind of non-relationship in your life, the less he will respect you. You need to cut the chord with this guy and find someone who wants the same things you want. You got over him once, you can get over him again. The other problem is that the two of don't really seem to be compatible and I think that's another thing he struggles with. The two of you have a connection but your relationship is not marriage material. Incompatibility isn't something to be ignored because it'll come back to bite you later on. As far as the phone calls you're making to him, you need to stop completely. Unless you're in a solid relationship with a guy, you don't need to be calling any guy. I don't care what men say, they always see this as either desperate or needy. They feel pushed and, as he said to you, you're not giving him a chance to come to you. Most men need this and everytime you interfere with this process, you're going to lose just about every time. I strongly recommend that you read the book Getting to 'I Do' by Pat Allen and Sandra Harmon. It will give you a lot of insight as to the mistakes you're making with men. Also, John Gray's book on dating is excellent.
Author myopicthought Posted October 14, 2009 Author Posted October 14, 2009 (edited) What is Cp? I've been trying to UrbanDictionary it to no avail. The other problem is that the two of don't really seem to be compatible and I think that's another thing he struggles with. The two of you have a connection but your relationship is not marriage material. Incompatibility isn't something to be ignored because it'll come back to bite you later on. He always gets all torn up about the bickering, but I'm friends with one of his other major exes as well the best friend of the "other girl", and he acts the same in all the relationships. He is stubborn and picks fights. I think I'm different because I don't lie down when he gets a tone over something dumb and will respond in turn. Since August though, I think we have been both working pretty hard to not bicker and let little stuff go. And it actually got easier over time. Also, I totally agree with letting men lead the way. My friends start going on feminist rants when I say that, but it's always been true in all of my experiences. Though what am I supposed to do if I keep turning him down and he stops calling? Am I supposed to say, "no, not tonight, how about three weeks?" next time he does call? I just figured calling was different because we know each other really well. Actually, I haven't put myself in a lot of these dumb positions over someone since I was in my teens. Again, I just thought he was "different", so it called for different measures. Also, I didn't think any of these conversations would end with him saying, "I wasn't thinking about dating you up until 3 minutes ago, but that's a good idea." I merely wanted an update because I was going nuts and figured I deserved one. I'm still not 100% convinced on the "not wanting to date anyone" thing due to his lying-to-save-feelings-and-making-it-10x-worse track record. I'm either going to talk to him in a few days to see if it's him or me for sure, then work on self-sufficiency either way. Or I won't talk to him about it and will work on it (which I want to emphasize is for me, not him. I kept putting it off and now I don't have that security blanket/him anymore), and keep minimal contact and see if he responds positively when he does see me. For the meantime, I don't want to see him at all because it still stings. And I've already signed up for yoga and ceramics classes, found a knitting group, and have been calling up some people I haven't seen in awhile. I just, sadly, have never realized til today that he's been asking this of me THE ENTIRE TIME this second time around and that I've never given a true shot to regaining it. I would always worry that I tried everything but the one thing he actually kept saying. Edited October 14, 2009 by myopicthought
Angel1111 Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 You're still missing the big points. He has been very plain about where he's at with this and you're just not listening. That's why you have instincts about not being convinced about him wanting to date other women. Listen to what he's saying, and listen to your instincts. For whatever reason, this complicated, rollercoaster relationship is not working. This is the kind of thing where the guy ends up marrying someone else 4 mos down the road. The bottom line is, this relationship is just too difficult and this is not the makings of anything long-term. I have to resort to using my axe murderer theory where a person says that everything about the guy and the relationship is absolutely perfect.....except, oh yeah, he's an axe murderer. You're totally ignoring the 'axe murderer' or dealbreakers in this relationship because you think the good things are going to keep it together. They won't. The thing is, every person and every relationship has its good points. It's the dealbreakers that separate the men from the boys, so to speak.
Author myopicthought Posted October 14, 2009 Author Posted October 14, 2009 He has been very plain about where he's at with this and you're just not listening. That's why you have instincts about not being convinced about him wanting to date other women. Listen to what he's saying, and listen to your instincts. I get your overall message, so please don't get frustrated that I'm asking questions about these sentences, which I know don't affect the overall messages. I just got confused by the wording. You say I'm having instincts because I'm not listening, which I'm getting the impression is bad. But then you're telling me to listen to both, implying that the instinct is not bad?
Angel1111 Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 I get your overall message, so please don't get frustrated that I'm asking questions about these sentences, which I know don't affect the overall messages. I just got confused by the wording. You say I'm having instincts because I'm not listening, which I'm getting the impression is bad. But then you're telling me to listen to both, implying that the instinct is not bad? I seem to be incapable of getting my point across today. Probably because I'm sick and can't think straight. What I was trying to say is that you need to listen to what he's saying, and you need to listen to your instincts. Your instincts are kicking in for a reason.
mmk1 Posted October 14, 2009 Posted October 14, 2009 Have to agree with flying burrito. He wants you in his life on his terms, all the benefits of a relationship but none of the responsibilities. It will go as long as you let it, with him getting his needs met and none of yours met.
girlie908 Posted October 15, 2009 Posted October 15, 2009 i was in this sort of relationship for 2 years after being committed for 2 years before that. he said he could not be in a relationship and that we were just friends, but wanted to continue sleeping with me and/or other relationship aspects w/out the title or responsibility. my naivety allowed it to go on for so long, yet along with it went my sanity (major trust issues, even though we weren't together in my mind whenever he wanted someone else yet i was still sleeping in his bed i was crushed) and my emotions were all over the place. looking back on it, i loved this guy so much and would've done almost anything for him, yet that was my flaw too since he knew that, and would take advantage of it. i know it's hard, but unless he has a sudden change of heart (which he probably will not) and begs you to be with him in a COMMITTED relationship, i suggest you go NC. it'll save you a lot of time and potential heart ache.
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