Author Athena Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Athena, I have another question for you....once he lays the building blocks, does he expect you to establish the foundation, build the walls, do the roofing, put in the windows and doors....or does he plan to share the burden!? Is he planning to lay the building blocks at all, or is he just recognising that he "can" lay them. I don't see him doing the work on his own -- he doesn't stick it out at IC when I have pushed him to go, he goes for the minimal amount of time, once it was only ONE visit! Of course he plans on me doing the work, I always have. As for the laying the building blocks, I think it was BoldJack who got it right with how he sees this: In every lie there is a kernel of truth. I don't know who said that, but whoever it was, he/she was right on the money. Athena's husband will tell her anything to get what he wants. He wants Athena to stay married to him, to continue to cheat on her, until HE decides to stop, then he wants to come home to his dutiful wife and take up where he left off, WITHOUT any repercussions. So now he is laying the ground-work for that to happen. Right now he is like a bum sitting on the fence. All that is coming out and falling on your side of the fence is "brown stuff". Is he really committed to moving forward to a good future with you, or does he just want to dwell interminably in narcissistic self-absorption!? If I were you, I would only take notice of clear unambiguous statements from him. If he can't volunteer them, just ask him direct questions with "yes" or "no" answers to give him a starter for ten. Problem is, he lies -- even to himself. I find the image of him sitting on the fence with the crap on my side, useful. I think he WANTS "a good future with me" but is not committed to doing anything that requires him to do what someone else requires. He has a STRONG aversion to doing what he is told to do... in the past he has said stuff even about marriage being an institution where he is expected to be faithful, but he didn't want to be dictated to, so he did the opposite. There is no easy way of figuring this man out. As 2sunny correctly pointed out, "so his response tells us that he actually believes his own lies... and he also expects Athena to believe them too. " Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Athena, I have the impression from the letter that he really really loves you and appreciates everything you do. The question is, does he love you WELL? (Answer: I think not!) And will he be able to love you WELL in the future? It's a crapshoot, and only you can make that decision, whether you want to take that gamble or not. The odds seem to be against you, though. That kind of man doesn't change his stripes... unless he comes across a woman who won't put up with his bullsh*t from the get-go. You're long past that. He assumes you will continue to put up with it and remain married to him... because you have already done so, time and time again. Link to post Share on other sites
Fallen Angel Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 But babelfish.com does NOT have a Craptastic to English translation button *sigh* Link to post Share on other sites
Author Athena Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 On a serious note. What does it really matter ..what he really really means in YET ANOTHER letter from H....Athena you have been standing still I have been stuck. For years. Except this past year I have managed to keep from longing and pining for him. I have managed to mostly disengage from him emotionally. It was no easy feat. ..posting letters from him for at least 9 months that *I* know of. Move on and stop writing him..Why are you even in contact with him? Do you just wanna stay?..If you do...that is OK.....stay but don't keep playing these games with your OWN head .posting all these letters and wondering how and why and going in circles is not healthy for you. I know... it's just that I had so many questions. And I want to be SURE. I know I am conflicted. It's like he was my greatest love, and I HAVE to let him go! It's difficult, because he won't let me go, so that makes it even more difficult for me to cut him loose... he apologizes and makes promises... At this point I have moved on more than I had before. It is so very difficult. My question. How happy will I be if I stay and fix my marriage, versus if I divorce? I have to look at my Motivation. If I apply the Expectancy Theory of Motivation: Effort ---> Performance (expectancy) Performance ---> Outcome (Instrumentality) Valence (my subjective worth of the outcome) from -1 to +1 ET formula: Motivational Force = (E-->P) x Σ [(P-->O)(V)] My Motivation for staying (happily) married =(low) x Σ [(high)(like it)] [(high)(like it)] [(low)(Dislike it)] =(-1) x Σ [(+1)(+1)][(+1)(+1)][(-1)(-1)] =(-1) x Σ [1][1][1] All the outcomes are =-1 that is the very low motivation for me to stay married on the other hand, if I look at my motivation for divorcing: My Motivation for divorcing = (moderate) x Σ [(high)(dislike it)][(moderate)(dislike it)][(high)(dislike it)][(high)(dislike it)][(high)(dislike it)] =(.5) x Σ [(+1)(-1)][(.5)(-1)][(+1)(-1)][(+1)(-1)][(+1)(-1)] =(.5) x Σ [-1][-.5][-1][-1][-1] =(.5) x Σ [ =-.5 =-.25 =-.5 My MF for Divorcing for each outcome ranges from -.25 to -.5 which is VERY low! So I am conflicted... clearly I am low in motivation to stay married (because I doubt my happiness will be high) on the other hand, my motivation for divorcing is low too -- so -- I am not motivated to seek a divorce, even though I believe the outcome of remaining married will be low happiness... Link to post Share on other sites
Author Athena Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Athena, Your H is the king of bulls**ters. He has a degree in SPREAD IT ON THICK, a masters in "F" WITH HER HEAD, a doctorate in TIE IT IN A PRETTY BOW and he got them all from HEAD UP MY AZZ UNIVERSITY. He is so full of verbal diarrhea he makes you want to take Imodium AD. I love the way you see things, Bent. You are straight to the point! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Athena Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 But babelfish.com does NOT have a Craptastic to English translation button *sigh* LOL!!!! :laugh: Link to post Share on other sites
GorillaTheater Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 If I apply the Expectancy Theory of Motivation: Effort ---> Performance (expectancy) Performance ---> Outcome (Instrumentality) Valence (my subjective worth of the outcome) from -1 to +1 ET formula: Motivational Force = (E-->P) x Σ [(P-->O)(V)] My Motivation for staying (happily) married =(low) x Σ [(high)(like it)] [(high)(like it)] [(low)(Dislike it)] =(-1) x Σ [(+1)(+1)][(+1)(+1)][(-1)(-1)] =(-1) x Σ [1][1][1] All the outcomes are =-1 that is the very low motivation for me to stay married on the other hand, if I look at my motivation for divorcing: My Motivation for divorcing = (moderate) x Σ [(high)(dislike it)][(moderate)(dislike it)][(high)(dislike it)][(high)(dislike it)][(high)(dislike it)] =(.5) x Σ [(+1)(-1)][(.5)(-1)][(+1)(-1)][(+1)(-1)][(+1)(-1)] =(.5) x Σ [-1][-.5][-1][-1][-1] =(.5) x Σ [ =-.5 =-.25 =-.5 I want to comment on this, but I have to wait until my synapses start firing correctly again. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Athena Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Are you content with analyzing his letters? He isn't saying anything. I used to hang on his every word, but since I have seen that his word is not him (that he doesn't have integrity, and just throws out any promise, says any words to get me off his back, or buy himself some time so he can continue to do as he wants) I am not content with analyzing his letters. This email from post 1, I was truly stumped at what he was saying... BillyJean did a great deciphering, though... and BoldJack saw something else too, and Misty was just great at adding the Realities of what he was saying (that he may not have wanted me to know, but which are there in his writings). In the "no" response' date=' I keep waiting for the "but" or the "it depends".[/quote'] That's true... I also keep thinking there is more to just "no" and it's not just because he's said 'no' before and then gone and had another affair... and it's not just because he has been wishy-washy about his ability to be monogamous... it's: He's been unfaithful to two wives, 13 affairs, over 29 years... that's a pretty damning track record for anyone to have... You know its there. These guys thrive on trying to find "loopholes" in logic to confuse you and get what they want. It just comes naturally to him. I doubt he even wastes much of his time planning his loopholes... It sounds like you plan on staying' date=' though. It also sounds like he plans on staying too - whether you ever have sex with him again or not.[/quote'] Well, he plans on staying married, yes. As for me, I don't think it's in my best interests to stay married. I find myself kinda holding out, for a miracle or something, which is not coming, but I HATE hate hate closing the door on him. But I am getting closer to being able to bring myself to doing it. Really, I am. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Athena Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 I want to comment on this, but I have to wait until my synapses start firing correctly again. LOL!!!! :lmao: I am sorry... but I am studying for an exam tomorrow (or pretending to) and I decided to plug in MY own motivational forces/outcomes/valence for the equation, ha ha ha... gotta get back to my books, grr Link to post Share on other sites
Author Athena Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Athena, I have the impression from the letter that he really really loves you and appreciates everything you do. The question is, does he love you WELL? (Answer: I think not!) And will he be able to love you WELL in the future? It's a crapshoot, and only you can make that decision, whether you want to take that gamble or not. The odds seem to be against you, though. That kind of man doesn't change his stripes... unless he comes across a woman who won't put up with his bullsh*t from the get-go. You're long past that. He assumes you will continue to put up with it and remain married to him... because you have already done so, time and time again. There is so much truth in your post... very wise... but now, what am I to do? Dammit... what a waste... what a waste what a waste Link to post Share on other sites
Author Athena Posted October 12, 2009 Author Share Posted October 12, 2009 Sigh, you know what is so sad? I see you in this position, and I see you still trying to get answers and make sense of it, and I think to myself, "Why does she bother?" yet then I go and do exactly the same thing you are doing. We think we quit playing, but we really haven't. hmm, it's hard not to be drawn back in... clearly there's something in it for us then, right? If the outcome was terrible, we would avoid it... I am moving to 'not bothering'... but it's taking such a long time. It really is tearing me apart. It's not a decision I ever wanted to have to make. Link to post Share on other sites
freestyle Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 After reading H's email in your first post here (and other letters in previous threads) one question comes to mind: Wow, is this guy a politician? So many syllables, so little substance........................... Link to post Share on other sites
bentnotbroken Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I love the way you see things, Bent. You are straight to the point! Life's too short to spew verbal diarrhea. Get to the dang point already. If you don't know what the point is...keep your thoughts to yourself until you do know what the point is. He is a waste of human flesh. Such a sad sack of nothing. Arrrgggghhhh he makes me so angry the way he treats you. Link to post Share on other sites
2sunny Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Athena, you CAN be happy if you end the M. it happened to me... it took a while but it is happy now. i was M 20 years to a man with an attitude much like yours... he cheated at the 10 year mark (i forgave him)... then i told him if he ever did it again - he would be out without a conversation. at 20 years - i found out again. it was over. at first i was numb, shocked and disappointed with the death of my M. then as time passed i started to understand how happy i could really be on my own. now, when i am with someone else and enjoying their company it's just a bonus... i am happy alone or with someone else. it takes time to MENTALLY get used to it (seeing that you aren't always physically with him anyway), but after the adjustment period life becomes different, better even. YOU can make life different and better for yourself - you don't need him for that at all. Link to post Share on other sites
bentnotbroken Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 I want to comment on this, but I have to wait until my synapses start firing correctly again. Won't happen, he didn't just stop the firing, he killed the cell body too. Withered dendrites, non firing synapses, shriveled nuclei. :rolleyes:He actually gave me gas. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 , I just sent him a reply asking him to summarize what his email means, in ONE sentence He's not gonna like that! This just made me laugh. MOST men like it simple - Short, sweet and to the point. Seems he LOVES drama and is sooooo into himself. Anyway, don't let him suck you into his pity party - That's what it is, and also quite manipulative. He talks through his @ss, if you don't mind me saying so! Link to post Share on other sites
eeyore1981 Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 hmm, it's hard not to be drawn back in... clearly there's something in it for us then, right? If the outcome was terrible, we would avoid it... I am moving to 'not bothering'... but it's taking such a long time. It really is tearing me apart. It's not a decision I ever wanted to have to make. I agree, and understand. Over the years my tolerance level has slowly gotten smaller. I've noticed this time I've gotten to fed up a lot quicker than last time. Also, I didn't quote it, but what you say about it being such a waste, that's how I feel, too. It's like it wouldn't be that big of a stretch for this to have a totally different outcome, but there's nothing I can do about it anymore. Link to post Share on other sites
ForumFool Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Althena you break my heart..I feel so bad for you...For this to still be something you are unsure of makes my head spin..The dude is a cheater to the nth degree....You know of 8...how many might you not know of.....and he isn't very nice. I hate the way he speaks to you like Slick Willy....I DO understand it all to some degree but you will never NEVER be happy with him unless....you end up liking him having other women...You don;t seem the kind to share well...I don't share either..my husband didn't make it to OW number 1 he jut tried and adios mofo I do tend to think your hubby has feelings for you but he doesn't love ANYONE but himself...that is why he is where he is and has done what he has over and over....Please don't be that mouse cats play with..... YOU CAN BE SURE I wanted to add yes I agree you have made some progress since we met....I would like to see you not wonder what he thinks , what he meant..how he meant it..that will show a true path of recovery.....Love doesn't hurt let alone over and over also I loved your math calculations hahahahahah I have been stuck. For years. Except this past year I have managed to keep from longing and pining for him. I have managed to mostly disengage from him emotionally. It was no easy feat. I know... it's just that I had so many questions. And I want to be SURE. I know I am conflicted. It's like he was my greatest love, and I HAVE to let him go! It's difficult, because he won't let me go, so that makes it even more difficult for me to cut him loose... he apologizes and makes promises... At this point I have moved on more than I had before. It is so very difficult. My question. How happy will I be if I stay and fix my marriage, versus if I divorce? I have to look at my Motivation. If I apply the Expectancy Theory of Motivation: Effort ---> Performance (expectancy) Performance ---> Outcome (Instrumentality) Valence (my subjective worth of the outcome) from -1 to +1 ET formula: Motivational Force = (E-->P) x Σ [(P-->O)(V)] My Motivation for staying (happily) married =(low) x Σ [(high)(like it)] [(high)(like it)] [(low)(Dislike it)] =(-1) x Σ [(+1)(+1)][(+1)(+1)][(-1)(-1)] =(-1) x Σ [1][1][1] All the outcomes are =-1 that is the very low motivation for me to stay married on the other hand, if I look at my motivation for divorcing: My Motivation for divorcing = (moderate) x Σ [(high)(dislike it)][(moderate)(dislike it)][(high)(dislike it)][(high)(dislike it)][(high)(dislike it)] =(.5) x Σ [(+1)(-1)][(.5)(-1)][(+1)(-1)][(+1)(-1)][(+1)(-1)] =(.5) x Σ [-1][-.5][-1][-1][-1] =(.5) x Σ [ =-.5 =-.25 =-.5 My MF for Divorcing for each outcome ranges from -.25 to -.5 which is VERY low! So I am conflicted... clearly I am low in motivation to stay married (because I doubt my happiness will be high) on the other hand, my motivation for divorcing is low too -- so -- I am not motivated to seek a divorce, even though I believe the outcome of remaining married will be low happiness... Edited October 13, 2009 by ForumFool Link to post Share on other sites
2sunny Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 any update Athena? any progress? been thinking about you these past few days. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Athena Posted October 16, 2009 Author Share Posted October 16, 2009 (edited) Hi 2Sunny, thanks for thinking of me! All is well. H being distant but courteous (by email) Exam is actually NEXT week!!! So I am going to be VERY prepared! Lol -- I thought it was this week. I am very glad to be back in univ, my studies keep my mind busy in a good way. When you are in the infidelity triangle, you tend to get caught up by obsessive thinking... My son misses my H. Yes, he's grown, 22, but still misses him... last we saw H was in August on vacation. Next time will be Xmas, unless our son flies over to visit him for a week during thanksgiving... (hmm the kids have never been out to visit H without me) How are you doing? Edited October 16, 2009 by Athena Link to post Share on other sites
imagine Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Hi Athena, This is one of my favorite proverbs. Prov10:19 - "When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise." Link to post Share on other sites
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