Storyrider Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 That makes sense to me. And if you are living somewhere where food isn't that plentiful I guess you would have to live with it. If you lived somewhere where food was cheap and easily accessible, the scenario you outlined SR could understandably make you more prone to being obese. Right, which is definitely the case in the west.
LakesideDream Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 If you drink a mocha from Starbucks every day with whole milk in it, have a burrito for breakfast smothered in cheese, eat hot wings for lunch, Cheetos for a snack, pizza for dinner and ice cream for dessert, you can gain weight pretty quickly. As compared to, black coffee, oatmeal, sandwich, edamame, grilled chicken, fruit. You get the picture. (w/ plan B, every couple of days you could maybe splurge on some Cheetos *or* some ice cream, "or" being the key word.) This is absolutely true. I'm big... to big. I cut back from 4000+ calories a day, 2-3 donuts, Burger King or Taco Bell lunch (2k cal) big dinner and snacks, snacks snacks to 1000-1200 cal's. Eating very carefully. I'm losing 4+ pounds a week and will be down far enough soon to start "real" excercise. I'm old... this will have to be a life change. I'm working on it hard.
Trialbyfire Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 I'll be the first one to pipe up about staying healthy. My only problem is that there seems to be an unreasonable phobia and bias, to the point of ostracization, in the current societal environment. Sure, the average overweight and obese person could lose their weight and I would highly encourage anyone to do so, if for nothing more than staying alive longer and also, for quality of life. But obese people aren't obese because they want to be that way. They already know they're obese and don't really need it hammered into their brain.
EarthGirl Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 What I will say is that some people don't have the response to overeating that makes most of us feel overfull and sick so that we naturally stop. For some, I think, they either never feel full, or they feel sick and the compulsion to keep on eating is stronger. Imagine if you simply felt hunger all the time. That aspect I do believe is either deeply habituated or genetic. storyrider, I do believe that that is what it is like for some obese people. But me myself although sometimes I still feel hungry after eating a good sized meal and I am hungry a good portion of my life and when I AM hungry it drives me crazy it's a horrible horrible feeling...which is also part of the problem. But anyway I DO eventually get full...so much that I can't stand to eat anymore. Problem is it is usually after I've eaten way too much already. And then another problem is after I have overeaten and get so full I actually DO get "sick of" food...and I tend to go hours without eating because I'm so tired of it (not really being tired of the fat problem or overeating problem itself, or feeling "guilty" because I know I overate..but simply a feeling of fullness in my stomach and getting tired of food so that I am not really that in love with food anymore ...just bored of it for once...wish that could last)...And THEN I go so many hours without eating anything, and since I am hypoglycemic by then I get faint and super hungry and since not only my mind and depression and taste buds again are screaming find something yummy to eat, but my stomach is too...So I tend then to overeat AGAIN. Not all the time, like I said most of the time I don't overeat a horrible amount, but just steadily eat a little too much for my body every day of very unhealthy but tasty food...But there is also a cycle every once in a while of this that I described above. I find it really hard to stick to routine..sleeping schedule (up now at 2:30 am here)..anything really... I just do not function naturally that way and that is also part of the problem. Anyway I do get full....I've also heard that stomachs actually are kind of elastic, the stomach muscle expands if you eat too much so logically then it takes more to fill it and make you feel that full feeling. I don't know if that's true, if anyone is in the medical field you can fill me in...But that is kind of sucky if it is true. Maybe it shrinks if you start eating more appropriate smaller portions but then you have to be sure not to eat too much or get too full to stretch it out again...like a catch 22 or something like that (I never understand what those kind of sayings mean, but you know what I mean).. My sister is a personal trainer and she has a friend who's a nutritionist and she has always told me it's good to fill your tummy but never to get too full...in fact it's good to be just a little bit hungry most of the time. There is a horrible disease I've heard of too with a horrible disgusting name (can't remember right now) where people don't ever ever feel full, that don't have the ability to feel full so they always feel hungry. That is such a horrible thing. Kinda crazy weird disease like kids who can't feel any physical pain. But most obese people don't technically have this disease probably. But yes it is much much more complicated than a lot of people think unfortunately.
EarthGirl Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 This is absolutely true. I'm big... to big. I cut back from 4000+ calories a day, 2-3 donuts, Burger King or Taco Bell lunch (2k cal) big dinner and snacks, snacks snacks to 1000-1200 cal's. Eating very carefully. I'm losing 4+ pounds a week and will be down far enough soon to start "real" excercise. I'm old... this will have to be a life change. I'm working on it hard. good going Lakeside!
JamesM Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 A couple of other factors are WHAT we eat and not how much. What type of food costs the most? The healthier kind. What is the easiest to get? The junk food. And by junk food, I don't mean candy and such. I mean mac and cheese, processed food, canned food, TV dinners, etc. This impacts a person's weight, too. As for all obesity being connected to genes, I never would say that. BUT there is a a hormone called leptin which is more prevalent and less prevalent in people. Those who have less leptin do not quit eating and have a less suppressed appetite. Those with adequate leptin levels are "told" by their bodies when to quit. The theory is that as you get fatter you also get less sensitive to the affects of Leptin. And yes, certain areas of the world have less or more of leptin. Google leptin. It is another aspect that may explain why we are becoming more obese. http://www.3dchem.com/molecules.asp?ID=154 http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/01/06/obesity.reviving.promise.leptin http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/163023.php http://www.bioscience.org/news/scientis/leptin.htm It is true. Many obese people can control their weight by simply lowering the amount of food or the type of food they eat. Yet there is also mounting evidence that suggests that no matter how little some people eat and even when they lose the weight, they gain it all back on a normal diet because their body has a different chemical structure than the average sized person. Either way or for whatever reason people are obese, why is it so hard for us to look past the size of the person when we are told over and over that "diversity matters?" Do some reading. Obesity is not a simple problem with one simple solution...."Eat less."
northstar1 Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 A couple of other factors are WHAT we eat and not how much. What type of food costs the most? The healthier kind. What is the easiest to get? The junk food. And by junk food, I don't mean candy and such. I mean mac and cheese, processed food, canned food, TV dinners, etc. This impacts a person's weight, too. As for all obesity being connected to genes, I never would say that. BUT there is a a hormone called leptin which is more prevalent and less prevalent in people. Those who have less leptin do not quit eating and have a less suppressed appetite. Those with adequate leptin levels are "told" by their bodies when to quit. The theory is that as you get fatter you also get less sensitive to the affects of Leptin. And yes, certain areas of the world have less or more of leptin. Google leptin. It is another aspect that may explain why we are becoming more obese. http://www.3dchem.com/molecules.asp?ID=154 http://esciencenews.com/articles/2009/01/06/obesity.reviving.promise.leptin http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/163023.php http://www.bioscience.org/news/scientis/leptin.htm It is true. Many obese people can control their weight by simply lowering the amount of food or the type of food they eat. Yet there is also mounting evidence that suggests that no matter how little some people eat and even when they lose the weight, they gain it all back on a normal diet because their body has a different chemical structure than the average sized person. Either way or for whatever reason people are obese, why is it so hard for us to look past the size of the person when we are told over and over that "diversity matters?" Do some reading. Obesity is not a simple problem with one simple solution...."Eat less." Right, I can certainly accept this, there certainly is a component that is out of the control of some obese people. HOwever, as I have witnessed myself over the years, many people gain weight through these facts: 1)They eat bigger portions, sometimes twice the suggested size. 2)They are eating more processed foods - as you said, cheaper and easily available. 3)Their metabolisms slow down (particularly over 30) 4)They barely, if ever exercise. The advent of frozen/processed foods over the last 40 years has had a dramatic increase in the weight problem we have in North America. Why bother cooking a balanced meal that might take an hour, when you can microwave a Dellisio Pizza or have a premade Caesar Salad. And the "Fat Free" Craze in the past 10 years has fooled people into thinking they can consume ice cream, or chips or other 'evil' foods without guilt or weight gain. However, they don't realize that companies just pump more sugar into the foods, which as the same impact down the road. Now that I'm in my mid 30's, many of the people I went to school with, or worked with 15 years ago have become very out of shape, some even would now be considered "obese" using BMI standards. It's pretty easy to see why. They don't exercise, or they go once a week and spend 15 minutes on a bike. They sit at desks most of the day. They drive everywhere. They consume latte's, heavy meals at lunch, and they don't have the metabolisms they did at 19 when they could eat McDonald's 3 times a week and still not gain weight. Throw in the fact that people don't need to even leave their houses as much these days to even do simple things that did burn some calories (Netflix, the Internet). Throw in being busy with careers, families and kids etc and it's a recipe for weight gain.
Rollercoasterr Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 In the case of my crazy mother, it's not that she overeats, or eats unhealthy foods, because she doesn't. It's lack of exercise. For her meals she eats off of a saucer(think softball sized plate if you're not familiar), doesn't snack on junk food, and drinks only water. Her problem is that she's let her medical problems go on for too long because she was afraid of the doctor. She's been diagnosed with Sleep Apnea(sp?), and that can make you fight so hard during the night to breathe that you're literally exhausted all day long. She's also supervisor of our hospitals billing department, which means she spends most of her day sitting in her office. She comes home, and has to finish her work. The doctor told her that her sleep apnea could be the driving factor for her weight because she's so tired all day long that she can't bring herself to do anything other than sit. And when she comes home at night her ankles are so swollen that you can't even tell that there used to be ankles there. But that part is caused by H Pylori, which she was ALSO just diagnosed with. She's been taking antibiotics for 2 weeks and her ankles are back to normal now. I truly think that if it weren't for her medical problems that she wouldn't be like she is. I don't remember the last time I saw her eat a doughnut, or anything else unhealthy. But then, most of the women in my family are big women. We usually start out really small and thin, but as we get older, we "bloom". I'm fighting as hard as possible to prevent that for me.
Author deux ex machina Posted October 7, 2009 Author Posted October 7, 2009 I am sorry to hear of all of the issues your mother has to contend with. What is H Pylori?
northstar1 Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 In the case of my crazy mother, it's not that she overeats, or eats unhealthy foods, because she doesn't. It's lack of exercise. For her meals she eats off of a saucer(think softball sized plate if you're not familiar), doesn't snack on junk food, and drinks only water. Her problem is that she's let her medical problems go on for too long because she was afraid of the doctor. She's been diagnosed with Sleep Apnea(sp?), and that can make you fight so hard during the night to breathe that you're literally exhausted all day long. She's also supervisor of our hospitals billing department, which means she spends most of her day sitting in her office. She comes home, and has to finish her work. The doctor told her that her sleep apnea could be the driving factor for her weight because she's so tired all day long that she can't bring herself to do anything other than sit. And when she comes home at night her ankles are so swollen that you can't even tell that there used to be ankles there. But that part is caused by H Pylori, which she was ALSO just diagnosed with. She's been taking antibiotics for 2 weeks and her ankles are back to normal now. I truly think that if it weren't for her medical problems that she wouldn't be like she is. I don't remember the last time I saw her eat a doughnut, or anything else unhealthy. But then, most of the women in my family are big women. We usually start out really small and thin, but as we get older, we "bloom". I'm fighting as hard as possible to prevent that for me. Since she works in the hospital, can she get access to buying/renting a CPAP machine that would help her breathing at night?
JamesM Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 I am sorry to hear of all of the issues your mother has to contend with. What is H Pylori? It is a bacteria in the stomach that causes digestive problems. My wife has been tested for it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori
Rollercoasterr Posted October 7, 2009 Posted October 7, 2009 (edited) H Pylori is what JamesM said. It's a nasty little bacteria thing that lives in your intestines and causes digestive issues. It also can cause your legs and feet to swell(really wouldn't have thought that). We knew she had IBS(Irritable Bowel) so whenever she would have problems we'd just think it was that, when it was actually IBS AND H Pylori together. Not fun. Since she works in the hospital, can she get access to buying/renting a CPAP machine that would help her breathing at night? Our hospital gives those things out like candy. She has one now and uses it reluctantly. It makes her look like she's got a gas mask on, but it does seem to be helping. It's only been a week though, so we'll see. Edited October 7, 2009 by Rollercoasterr
Mr. Lucky Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 Either way or for whatever reason people are obese, why is it so hard for us to look past the size of the person when we are told over and over that "diversity matters?" Because unlike gender, ethnic or religious diversity, obesity carries with it a huge societal cost in terms of health care. The risk factors are widely known and well documented. Would you also protect smokers in the name of diversity? Mr. Lucky
JamesM Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 Because unlike gender, ethnic or religious diversity, OLD AGE carries with it a huge societal cost in terms of health care. The risk factors are widely known and well documented. Would you also protect smokers in the name of diversity? Mr. Lucky So if I insert old age, then is it any different? The assumption with obesity is that those who are obese can do something about it. While this is true in many cases (and those mainly are the ones who gain weight in later years due to poor eating habits), it is not true in many of the very obese individuals. Some of these have lost the weight for a short time, and despite their diligent use of diets, they can it back. This is why these studies regarding genes and leptin have shown how dieting for some will not work. It is an imbalance of hormones. If we were to discriminate on the basis of societal costs, then even gender, race, and sexual orientation could be argued from that stance. Trying to solve the weight issues and decreasing societal costs does not justify discrimination.
Thornton Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 (edited) that question is slightly offensive, because it takes no more food to become huge than it does to remain skinny. It all comes down to food choices. It may not take a larger volume of food to become huge, but it takes a hell of a lot more calories, so if you're not eating a larger volume of food then you must be eating very high calorie foods. You can't argue with the mathematics: Energy input > Energy output = Gain weight Energy output > Energy input = Lose weight To lose weight you need to either eat less (decrease energy input) or exercise more (increase energy output). Excess weight simply cannot appear from nowhere in defiance of the laws of physics and the conservation of energy. Overweight people who say they don't eat much have a very broad definition of what "not eating much" actually means - when they keep a food diary they actually eat rather a lot of calories compared to someone who is slim. Edited October 8, 2009 by Thornton
Thornton Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 Does it get in the way of having sex? If it is two very obese people, does it get in the way? How does a person clean themselves after going to the bathroom if they have trouble reaching? Does a person who is really large require larger doses of some medicines? Have to pay more for insurance, ect.? How does a very obese person afford all of that food? I have in the past had sex with a larger person; it was like being on a water bed. If I had also been large there's no way we could have got it on. I've heard it said that two fat bellies + a short peter = frustration In general larger people seem to find it more difficult to clean themselves properly, depending on their size. Extremely large people obviously need assistance. I believe that larger people do require larger doses of some medicines, although not stuff like antibiotics. It's certainly true that they can absorb more alcohol because of their body weight. Insurance is more expensive if they take into account risk factors like obesity. Imo other things should also be more expensive if you're obese, such as plane tickets - nothing annoys me more than a fat person in the next seat spilling over the armrest into the space I've paid for. Obese people often eat the wrong sort of food, so they don't necessarily spend more than anyone else, they just eat cheap junk full of fats and sugars.
donnamaybe Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 So if I insert old age, then is it any different? The assumption with obesity is that those who are obese can do something about it. I'm sorry, James, and I see your point, but MOST obese people CAN do something about it. I fluctuate in weight between a size 4 and an 8. I know that doesn't sound like much, but I am a great cook and LOVE good food, so I could easily become HUGE if I weren't careful. When I'm at that size 8 I KNOW how I got there. It's not some kind of mystery. I'm eating fattier foods and/or not getting enough exercise. Now I'm not saying that in SOME cases there is some kind of medical issue contributing to the situation. Of course there are circumstances such as those. But in MOST cases, in my opinion, it is simply a matter of not watching the quantity and quality of food intake diligently enough and not getting enough exercise.
JamesM Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 It may not take a larger volume of food to become huge, but it takes a hell of a lot more calories, so if you're not eating a larger volume of food then you must be eating very high calorie foods. You contradict yourself. One does NOT need alot of calories to become fat. One simply needs to eat more calories that are burned off via exercising. BUT...this again assumes that ALL people who are large and obese have become that way due to eating habits and lack of exercise. This has been proven not to be the case. While the math is simple, the reasons are complex. For instance, metabolism. Two people can eat the same quantity of food and exercise the same amount of time. Yet one will gain weight. Metabolism. Or the one who gains weight has lower levels of growth hormone or leptin. IMO it is definitely discrimination to make the assumption that obese people simply are lazy and eat too much.
JamesM Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 I fluctuate in weight between a size 4 and an 8. I know that doesn't sound like much, but I am a great cook and LOVE good food, so I could easily become HUGE if I weren't careful. First of all, hello. Second, fluctuation from slim to slightly less slim (which a 4 to an eight is) is completely different than being 300# to 400#. Third, I challenge you to become huge and then stay that way. And when you are ready to lose it, studies show that those who are normally thin lose the weight rapidly (notice those Hollywood actors who gain and lose for movies?), while those who are normally obese cannot keep it off. There is overweight and there is obese. Many of us become overweight but few of us actually become obese. BTW, the definition of obese makes obesity smaller than it was defined in the past.
donnamaybe Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 First of all, hello. Second, fluctuation from slim to slightly less slim (which a 4 to an eight is) is completely different than being 300# to 400#. Third, I challenge you to become huge and then stay that way. And when you are ready to lose it, studies show that those who are normally thin lose the weight rapidly (notice those Hollywood actors who gain and lose for movies?), while those who are normally obese cannot keep it off. There is overweight and there is obese. Many of us become overweight but few of us actually become obese. BTW, the definition of obese makes obesity smaller than it was defined in the past. Now why in the world would I want to get HUGE?! lol The reason I do NOT, however, is for the reasons I stated. How do you get that way in the first place? By not eating right and by not exercising. It's not rocket science, and it isn't some new information we've JUST learned. People now know this well before they become obese, so they have made a choice. Do you really not think one would not notice their pants size getting bigger and bigger and bigger? I know it's a struggle for some, but so are many things in our lives. I just hear so much "oh, you poor thing" these days and not so much of taking responsibility for one's own self made situations. It is reflected in the number of frivelous civil court cases where people are no longer held accountable for their own behavior. I'm not intending to be insensitive, and I hope I'm not coming across that way, but I am vigilant over myself so that I stay in a range of weight that is at least healthy for me, if not always my self imposed ideal height/weight ratio for my body size and type.
Mr. Lucky Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 You contradict yourself. One does NOT need alot of calories to become fat. One simply needs to eat more calories that are burned off via exercising. BUT...this again assumes that ALL people who are large and obese have become that way due to eating habits and lack of exercise. This has been proven not to be the case. While the math is simple, the reasons are complex. For instance, metabolism. Two people can eat the same quantity of food and exercise the same amount of time. Yet one will gain weight. Metabolism. Or the one who gains weight has lower levels of growth hormone or leptin. IMO it is definitely discrimination to make the assumption that obese people simply are lazy and eat too much. You're using the exception to prove the rule. While there are some people whose obesity is medically based, the vast majority do indeed become overweight "due to eating habits and lack of exercise". I agree that the playing field isn't level for all as regards metabolism, but that's also true in other areas. I have a genetic inability to produce a normal amount of "good" cholesterol. As a result, I can consume no more than 10% of my calories from fat and my overall target is 10 grams of fat a day - no mean feat in a world where one Big Mac has 30+ grams. Cheese, butter, bread, cream, red meat, etc, are all off the table for me and I have to be very discliplined in my approach to eating and lifestyle. I also have specific requirements for type and duration of exericise. The challenge for me is no different than it is for many obese folks - if I want to be healthy and live a normal life, I can't eat like "most people". And while it's often difficult to stay on track, it's something that one accepts in exchange for the obvious benefits... Mr. Lucky
Thornton Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 I agree that metabolism can make a difference... two people can eat the same food and be different weights because they have different metabolisms. However I greatly doubt that one person would be a stick insect while the other would be so fat that he could hardly move... metabolism doesn't cause that big of a difference! Sorry, but if you're 300lb then you ate all the pies. Also, as Mr Lucky commented, if your body doesn't process food the same as everyone else's then you adapt... you look in the mirror and think "Hmm, I'm getting a bit tubby, better cut down on the donuts and exercise more"... i.e. you do something about it, you don't continue to stuff your face with donuts while blaming your metabolism for the fact that you don't look like Kate Moss. Virtually everyone who is obese could fix it if they really wanted to; only a very small minority of people actually have medical problems that result in obesity.
donnamaybe Posted October 8, 2009 Posted October 8, 2009 I agree that metabolism can make a difference... two people can eat the same food and be different weights because they have different metabolisms. However I greatly doubt that one person would be a stick insect while the other would be so fat that he could hardly move... metabolism doesn't cause that big of a difference! True. I have a couple sisters whose metabolisms run like a dynamo while the rest of us not so much (there are six sisters total ). BUT - I can change that by doing exercises which increase my heart rate as well as doing weight training. Having more muscle causes more calorie burn even while you're doing nothing. So, while it may be more difficult for me to keep weight off than the two sisters I referenced, I know I can do it. It's up to me.
EarthGirl Posted October 9, 2009 Posted October 9, 2009 I agree that metabolism can make a difference... two people can eat the same food and be different weights because they have different metabolisms. However I greatly doubt that one person would be a stick insect while the other would be so fat that he could hardly move... metabolism doesn't cause that big of a difference! Sorry, but if you're 300lb then you ate all the pies. Also, as Mr Lucky commented, if your body doesn't process food the same as everyone else's then you adapt... you look in the mirror and think "Hmm, I'm getting a bit tubby, better cut down on the donuts and exercise more"... i.e. you do something about it, you don't continue to stuff your face with donuts while blaming your metabolism for the fact that you don't look like Kate Moss. Virtually everyone who is obese could fix it if they really wanted to; only a very small minority of people actually have medical problems that result in obesity. this has all been discussed earlier in the thread..you guys have simply chosen to ignore those of us who have talked about this issue. Just because something is not medically based does not mean that something "can be done about it if the person REALLY wanted to"...this is a TOTALLY separate issue.
donnamaybe Posted October 9, 2009 Posted October 9, 2009 this has all been discussed earlier in the thread..you guys have simply chosen to ignore those of us who have talked about this issue. Just because something is not medically based does not mean that something "can be done about it if the person REALLY wanted to"...this is a TOTALLY separate issue. I don't understand what you meant by this.
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