Update and long vent about "skipper"

[Kamille]

If I may add another piece of advice writergal: next time you date a guy and he doesn't reply in what you think is a reasonable time frame- just "next" him. Don't get in touch with him, just tell yourself: his loss and move on with your life.

 

Now, we all know that will mean that the guy will call you two days later, but that'll be a nice way for you to learn to change with what you think is an inherent part of your personality (I actually don't think it's such a core part of your personality... or that personalities are that immutable.

[loveslife]

Writergal,

 

I have to go to sleep but I just wanted to leave some parting thoughts. And, again, I am just trying to be helpful.

 

It seems to me that you are either going to have change the way you interact with the men you date or resign yourself to getting angry a lot.

 

I think it would be really helpful for you to look inside yourself and find the courage to not only acknowledge your part in your relationships not working out but also to accept responsibility.

 

Nobody else is responsible for your happiness other than you. I don't think that anybody will be able to feel a way about you that will make you happy until you feel happy all on your own.

 

Good luck.

Edited October 4, 2009 by loveslife

[loveslife]

But hey, the men are involved with me too. So, I cant possibly take all the credit for my failed relationships.

 

 

But you are the only one who can take responsibility for your happiness. If you stay with someone who is not fulfilling your needs, that is your responsibility solely.

[prettybaby]

I'm not even sure why I bother writing a response here, but I guess I'll give it one last shot: Please read over all the threads you have started here and take a good look at your own actions and how they come across to the men you date.

 

They would strike any sane person as clingy and dramatic. Many people told you before that this is exactly how it was going to end with this guy if you didn't improve your behavior quickly. I hope for your own sake that you'll be able to move on faster than with the last guy you pushed away with your high level of needs and your false suspicions of cheating. And only after seeing him for a short while, just like this guy.

 

I really do think that seeing a therapist would be very beneficial. You need to figure out the source of this extreme dependence you have on men as soon as you start dating them. It's not healthy and will not have a good outcome unless you manage to improve this.

[writergal]

Prettybaby:

 

With regards to my ex-boyfriend and your comments - my "false suspicions" about his cheating were correct after all. He is now living with her in another town, where they both took jobs at the same place of business together. He was just as emotionally clingy to me as I was too him. It takes two to tango. It turns out I was right after all about him and his feelings for this woman. So that case is closed.

 

Referring to my behavior as clingy and dramatic is dismissing this guy's disinterest in me. Those are strong, critical terms you use to describe my behavior which I think is just being mean, frankly. So, why do you bother to post to my threads then? Throwing stones at me by calling me clingy and dramatic is not helpful to me at all.

 

I already know that I expected too much too soon with this guy and I know the reasons why. But he also wasn't that interested in me to begin with so it was a combination of factors for disaster from the very beginning - not just because of my relationship behavior.

 

You miss this in your interpretation and reading of my posts. It takes 2 people in a relationship to make it succeed or fail. That you can't see this really irks me. Please back off from your harsh judgment of me. I don't appreciate it.

[boogieboy]

WG, since you fear being alone, and you havent had a LTR up to this age because you dont want to change your "uptightness"--how many more years are you going to continue these rigid communication standards that drive guys away before you decide you might need to change? When your 45? 50? Will you take this to the grave? One guy fullfilling this need in the past shouldnt make it a standard.

[writergal]

Boogieboy:

 

My communication standards are not based on the one relationship I posted here about. I've had a lot of other relationships where the communication was more reciprocal.

 

This thread was meant to start out as a vent about how rude this guy was to me. That point seems to have been lost. I did not post to come here and defend myself all over again. It's getting redundant and exhausting to read.

 

I'm not going to change my standards to please any of the posters here, or any guy I date. Dating and life isn't that cut and dry. Change a standard, and poof, a long term relationship takes place. That's not realistic. It takes 2 people to make a relationship work. And no one is perfect.

 

This guy obviously has issues as well. So its not just about me. And frankly, just because you have a long term relationship, doesn't mean you're more successful at relationships with people. He told me in his last relationship, he hung on 6 months longer than he knew he should, because he wanted to please her and make her happy. THAT has nothing to do with me. Ok? That is his issue. Not mine. Does it mean he's better than me because he went 5 years with the same person, and hung on longer than he knew he should? No way.

 

The length of a relationship, even a marriage for that matter, does not indicate that a person is in a healthy, successful relationship all the time. There are plenty of dysfunctional long term relationships and marriages out there, where 1 or both people are not leaving because of their own reasons, even though they know they probably should. IT's a problem as old as time.

 

But I come here, post about 2 relationships I've had - albeit very brief ones, and I'm lambasted because I am nearly 40 without a longterm relationship? That's really unfair.

 

And my lack of a longterm relationship is not because i don't want to change. It takes two people not just me. I am sick of defending myself here. It's really exhausting and ridiculous, when everyone here is just as human as I am, where relationships are concerned who also make mistakes.

[Kamille]

In every situation it is a combination of factors which explains whether a relationship will bud or not. And you're right, it takes two to tango.

 

Now, I don't want to lambast you but : Two. Right now you're understandbly angry at this guy and looking for support. Yes, he's an ass for telling you all that stuff the way he did. A lot of people agreed he was undiplomatic at best. A few others who actually also want to help and support you, are also pointing out a different perspective on how you could approach dating.

 

You yourself contend that your desire to force a relationship along when you enter relationships can be detrimental to the development of said relationship.

 

One question, for you to reflect upon: how long after the first date do you think it takes before a guy actually knows that he's interested in a woman?

 

I think the "into you" philosophy is doing a lot of us a disservice because we expect someone we just met to be so crazy about us that their lives will revolve around us. IMO, it takes longer then 2-3 dates before a guy can actually know whether or not he's really interested in more then my looks. (And vice-versa, it takes me more then 2-3 dates before I know if a guy is actually worthy of my time). I always give guys 4-5 dates before I expect them to start "commiting to a relationship" and "showing strong interest". Hey, they need to know me before they can decide they're interested in me right? So before the 4th date, really, I have no expectation. I also don't initiate or contact until the guy has shown interest. If he doesn't call? Ah well. If he does, bonus!

Edited October 4, 2009 by Kamille

[prettybaby]

It saddens me that you're just not seeing what everybody has been telling you for a while now.

 

Everybody told you: Writergal, don't call or e-mail this guy for a while. Back off while he's away, just like he kindly asked you to. Then you wanted to bring up this serious talk next time you see him, after having only dated this dude for 4 weeks. We told you: Writergal, don't bring up that kind of topic next time you see him, you're gonna scare the guy away. Then you went on and on about how his communication level sucked. And instead of reacting like anybody would have, you stuck to the same patern and got more and more upset over this whole thing, when you've only been out a few times with this guy you barely know. We told you: Writergal, stop this behavior now or this guy is gonna dump you next time he sees you.

 

Well, he's back from his vacation now, and just like we told you: your constant contact with him annoyed him to no end while he was just trying to relax with his family, and inevitably, he dumped you.

 

And yet, you're posting here now, telling us what a jerk he is for dumping you and how you're shocked and frustrated. And how "it takes two to tango", which apparently in your eyes simply means that your behavior is not the problem here, and that he basically sucked from the beginning. That's not saying "it takes two to tango", that's saying that he and all the other guys who dumped you are jerks and that your behavior has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact, you're even admitting flat out that you can't be bothered to change your behavior because life is too short and whatnot.

 

And now you're even trying to convince yourself that you're better off that way than people who are stuck in crappy marriages. Let's get real here: the goal is a happy relationship that works and lasts, and there's plenty of them out there. It's not gonna happen the way you go about this at the moment. It's gonna take some big efforts and changes on your part.

 

There is absolutely nothing mean about this, Writergal. It's just honest advice.

[loveslife]

 

I already know that I expected too much too soon with this guy and I know the reasons why. But he also wasn't that interested in me to begin with so it was a combination of factors for disaster from the very beginning - not just because of my relationship behavior.

 

You miss this in your interpretation and reading of my posts. It takes 2 people in a relationship to make it succeed or fail. That you can't see this really irks me. Please back off from your harsh judgment of me. I don't appreciate it.

 

I think what you're saying is that his disinterest was a contributing factor to the demise of your relationship? His flaw?

 

That doesn't make any sense to me. His low level of interest was the reason why you shouldn't have been interested or so invested.

 

Nobody is judging you harshly. We've all made relationship mistakes. People are trying to help.

[BobSacamento]

You all act like she was dumped by prince charming. This d bag gave her the opposite of the "It's not you, it's me." routine. The "It's all you, not me and btw you're old too." routine.

[Kamille]

Writer, you sound like a high acheiver who knows how to acheive and attain her goals. You likely shine in your field. You know it is hard work that gets you where you want to go. So why would it be any different with dating?

 

I normally abstain from recommending commercial links, but may I suggest you google a "dating advice" marketer called Christian Carter and register to his listserv (you don't have to buy the books - just the newsletter will likely be enough). It's somewhat trite advice, but at the same time, a lot of the stuff he says has helped me make sense of the dating world - and actually helped me confront some of the fears that were making me act in unproductive ways.

 

The result? I now enjoy dating.

[boogieboy]

 

This thread was meant to start out as a vent about how rude this guy was to me. That point seems to have been lost. I did not post to come here and defend myself all over again. It's getting redundant and exhausting to read.

 

Your threads about this guy are exhausting, I dont understand how you dont see that.

 

Youre looking for support, to dwell onto this guys actions, but you were WRONG. He wasnt interested in you, he doesnt see communication the same way you do, that doesnt make him rude just because you dont see things the same way he does, it means hes not interested, and you should have let go sooner. He gave you the hint and you didnt follow it. Thats your fault. You admitted this in your last thread. Since youre not going to change anything about your tactics, why are you venting in circles?

Edited October 4, 2009 by boogieboy

[prettybaby]

You all act like she was dumped by prince charming. This d bag gave her the opposite of the "It's not you, it's me." routine. The "It's all you, not me and btw you're old too." routine.

No one is acting like he's prince charming. In fact, we don't know anything about the guy, except for what Writergal wrote about the whole situation from her own perspective.

 

Yes, it was incredibly cruel and mean of him to mention the age factor. It still doesn't change the fact that the main reason he'd rather not deal with her anymore is the overwhelming amount of needs and pressure on her part, which he even admitted to her. He handled their last conversation like an insensitive butt hole. But let's not kid ourselves: the fact that she handled this the exact opposite way than she should have, is and will remain an issue in her future dating experiences.

 

 

 

There are 2 possibilities of what really happened here, regardless of her own perspective of reality right now:

 

1) If he was a jerk from the start, like she says, then why on Earth would anyone in their right mind cling onto someone like that and get upset over long term goals? Why even consider long term goals with a jerk? Just don't call the guy if he's such a jerk, and move on to the next instead of calling and texting and getting upset over it all. Because let's all remember that this is a guy she had only dated a few times and hardly knew at all.

 

2) If he did look like prince charming to her at first, then why would you do all the things that you know will irritate him and drive him away quickly? Why not take it easy and try to get to know him first without getting on his nerves like she obviously did? Everybody could see that he was getting annoyed, and yet she continued.

 

So really, in both scenarios, it still boils down to the same conclusion: her behavior was counter-productive and only led to frustration.

[loveslife]

the fact that she handled this the exact opposite way than she should have, is and will remain an issue in her future dating experiences.

 

I think this is the main point people are trying to help writergal understand. This guy's actions aren't the point entirely.

 

What's more important for her future relationship success IMO is for her to look at her own actions in regards to getting what she wants in a relationship.

 

While writergal seems to want people to rally on her side to boo the guy, how is that really going to help her?

 

I think each of us who is trying to give her some advice has been where she is now and really just wants to help.

[Pink Cupcakes]

I do think this guy was really very rude and it was uncalled for to tell you the full truth of why he was not interested in you as relationship material.

 

That said, you are very wordy and insistent in your responses on this thread. I wonder if you nagged him to be fully blunt to you about his feelings, which is why you got the cruel and exact response you did from him as to why he wasn't interested. You don't seem to be the type of person to accept "We just aren't a good fit" or some other similar polite yet true response, as an answer.

 

Also, this guy and what he said really seems to bother you when most of us would have nexted the jerk and moved on by now. Could it be there is some true subtext in what he said that rocked you to the core? Is it the fact that you have reached the point that it will be much more difficult to marry and have children? And the other stuff he said about you? It is bothering you so much because you realize there is truth at the heart of what he said?

Edited October 12, 2009 by Pink Cupcakes

[You'reasian]

WTRanger,

 

I'm SO happy to meet another person here who has the same struggles I do with regards to communication.

 

In my original thread about "Skipper" I started off venting about how weird I thought he may be, but I wanted to give him a chance anyway. Then I went on to complain about how I felt he was neglecting my needs by not responding to my texts/emails/phone calls immediately. Some people view that as demanding too much too soon. But I don't. I believe at any stage of the dating game, if you like someone enough, you don't hesitate to respond to them.

 

Plus, in my original post, I also complained about his lack of communication with me in between our dates, which only confused me more because he came on so strong with me right off the bat, and I went along with it because it felt good, even though I got emotionally attached too quickly, before really getting to know him first, which I now am going to try the next time I (hopefully) get asked out on a date...not let the guy get more than a hug on the 1st date with me.

 

But yes. He DID make it all my fault because he never did tell me how he was feeling aside from, "I really like you" but when I ask him to call me back, he said I was too demanding.

 

I just talked to my sister about this situation. She is way different than me. She said when she and her husband first started dating, she was not bothered by his lack of communication in between their dates. And she didn't mind that he scheduled their dates at the last minute. I'm really different. I prefer dates be scheduled in advance because of my grad school, tutoring, and teaching responsibilities during the week. It is too difficult for me to be last minute with dates, b/c I reserve my free time for my friends first, and dates come second. Plus, I feel more secure if the guy makes a date in advance with me, because then I don't feel like I'm on his short-list of many women to call.

 

You're right. This is a lesson for me to learn from. Especially with regards to communication and responding, and having healthier boundaries and not so many high expectations so early on when dating someone.

 

I find it interesting that you want a guy to contact you, but good. I think its natural for someone to want to talk with someone they are interested in.

[singlegirl]

I think men generally don't like drama or a post mortem of the situation...More than once I created drama where it was not needed. More than once it worked but it doesn't now.....I have since realised the real way to a man's heart is to be myself and ensure he is happy when we see eachother to the best of my ability. This should create a desire to communicate with me. I am then in a win win situation. If he doesn't respond to my charm then I win as I don't waste more of my time and if he does I also win

[Pink Cupcakes]

Writergal, are you ready to own up to your deficiencies instead of continuing to defend yourself? Cause all said and done, you are alone.....and there is a reason or two why.....

[gypsy_nicky]

writergal, I'm with you on this one, but I will have to agree with the people here that you are possibly scaring the men away in your life. I only agree with the people here because its possible your attachment style is chasing men from a different attachment style. You could always go the more secure way and find someone who will validate you quickly, but this is very draining too.

 

From what I've read your attachment seems anxious/ambivalent. I think with this type you almost always fall for the avoidant (don't think extremes here) types which makes your life more difficult but at the same time more fulfilling because its how you were socialized as a person and its how you associate love with attachment.

 

I think what the people here are saying is true and that you shouldn't start investing real soon in a potential candidate because this is where the dysfunction starts. It's like your building trust and intimacy from the get go but because you feel ambivalent/anxious of the relationship you want to push it in really quick. For people that don't attach like you this can be seen as controlling behavior.

 

Its also true that we cant help who we fall for, so if you keep meeting men like these or these are the type you fall for then you should keep your cool and chill. Let them decide for themselves on how they want the relationship to proceed, while you also do the same thing. Reciprocity is built on waiting for the other to decide on their own while you've made yours.

[torranceshipman]

He is a major league douche-a complete loser. Stay away! And there is nothing wrong in you expecting a man who is dating you to actually respond to your call/text within a few hours...it's normal (if a guy can't get it together to send a simple text response in 1-2 days then that's crappy!). I think it is also just different personalities-me & myboyfriend were v.communicative from date 1, & he was quick to define our status and make me feel very valued...clearly we have very similar relationship goals/needs that way-sounds like you need a guy like that too. Never apologize for that or change yourself just because a loser douche tells you to.

[torranceshipman]

And I'd like to add....none of us are perfect at dating and we all make mistakes-people I knew often liked to chip in and criticize my dating approach cause I was single for so long and hey, if you're single too long you're driving men away...right? Wrong! I had fun dating but didn't ever meet the right person til now...& I didn't change myself at all for him, and he loves the things about me that other men only tolerated because they liked me. People here are trying to help and some of this is really good but some of it I think us unnecesarily negative-because let's face it we're discussing a sad excuse for a man that said these criticisms in the first place ane as he's clearly a tos@er his words count for v.little!

[writergal]

Torranceshipman:

 

I couldn't agree with you more! People have lambasted me for my posts about this man and the previous man I dated, saying very critical and negative things about me.

 

I've read similar posts like mine on this forum, and the same posters have shown much more kindness to the poster who started the thread, vs. being just really mean to me. But some people in this thread have been nice and I listen to those people more than I do the ones who criticize and berate me.

 

Yes. It was great to read your post because it is proof that I just haven't met the right guy yet. And just because I've been single and dating for so long, doesn't mean I'm a lost-cause. It just means I haven't met "the one" yet.

 

And it IS totally normal for me to expect a guy to respond to my texts/emails/phone calls within a few hours. It doesn't make him or I needy if that is our communication style. I know there are a few regulars who already posted on this thread who will read my response to your post, and lambast me all over again, but I don't care. I'm just glad to read your post. You and I are very similar with our dating situations.

 

And I did not scare this idiot away. It didn't work out because he wasn't the right guy for me. So, onward and upward.

 

Thanks torrancshipman for your post. It made my day.

[prettybaby]

Torranceshipman:

 

I couldn't agree with you more!

 

Of course you agree with the only person on this entire board who finally agrees 100% with you

[writergal]

Pretty baby,

 

Maybe you need to reread the character and conduct rules of this forum. It is obvious that you dislike my personality. In all of your posts to me, you make snide remarks, attack my character and in general are sarcastic and disrespectful towards me. And because you have been a regular poster here, you have quite a popular following of other posters, who will agree with whatever you say.

 

Unlike you, I treat posters here with as much respect as possible. I don't make snide comments to them, or attack their character the way I feel you have attacked me, just because we disagree. It is clearly a personality conflict that cannot be changed.

 

I would ask that you show me the respect that I deserve.

Edited October 16, 2009 by writergal