Finding it hard to trust him

[JaneInVegas]

I'll try to keep this as short as possible, it's kind of a long story ...

 

My fiance and I have been together for 16 months. He's a very, very decent man, and has most of the qualities that women look for in a husband. In other words, I consider him a keeper. However, he told me a story back when we were first dating that didn't bother me too much back then, but now troubles me a great deal. He had been married to Julie for a long time. He had a 6 year affair with someone named Ann, who was also married to someone who was very financially well off, and they had children together. Mike and Ann got caught having sex in his home by Julie, which briefly ended their affair. But they were crazy about each other, and after a few months they started right back up again. Mike and Julie fell apart, they divorced and he got his own place. He started putting a lot of pressure on Ann to get divorced as well, and tried very hard for about 5 years to get her to leave her husband. She refused, Mike told me he thought it was because of the money. Finally he said enough is enough, packed up his stuff and moved to Las Vegas. She came to his house to say good-bye, they essentially broke up, and then he jumped into his U-Haul and left town for good. But they still talked to each other every day, and Ann even came to Vegas three different times just to see Mike. He finally started dating, and found a woman named Elizabeth, who he married, however he was STILL talking to Ann every day, and they were saying 'I love you' to each other even though he'd married Elizabeth. Elizabeth caught on and it caused more problems for Mike, he told me he called Ann one last time and told her it was over with, he couldn't talk to her anymore. She bawled and cried and carried on, but Mike says he stood firm with her, and that was the last time he had ever talked to her. I believed him. When he broke up with her on the phone was about a year before we had even met each other.

 

Okay, so a couple of weeks ago I looked at his cell phone to retrieve a number to call my daughter. And there was his old area code. Major red flags. I found it was, of course, Ann's. I asked him if he'd talked to her recently, he insisted he hadn't talked to her since he was married to Elizabeth. After I put a lot of pressure on him, he finally admitted he'd called her, but he had wanted to call to see if she still lived there with the intention of hanging up as soon as she answered. He says she answered, he hung up on her. I can't believe he expects me to believe that! I yelled at him that I can't believe the coincidence that the *one* day I looked at his cell phone to get a number from his history was the same day he'd called to 'hang up on her'! He insists he's innocent. Now there is a huge brick wall between us. I can't bring myself to touch him or be intimate with him in any way whatsoever. I keep imagining him calling Ann every day and telling her he loves her, while he's still sleeping next to me every night. I can't stand it, I just can't. I'm thinking about asking him to give me the password to his cell phone account. I'd like to see how many times he's actually called her since we've been together. If it's only a few times it wouldn't bother me so much (honestly, a few times wouldn't be a huge deal) but if it's been a lot of times, I'm thinking of leaving him. Is asking for his password over the top? I just don't think it's in me to trust his word after all I know about Ann.

 

Any thoughts greatly appreciated

[MistyK]

His past behavior is certainly cause for concern. Did he get counseling or somehow demonstrate that he saw the error of his previous ways and corrected them? It sounds like you're concerned that he's made a habit of using local girls as stand-ins for Ann hoping she'll eventually leave her H. You aren't married yet and you probably shouldn't go into a marriage with this level of doubt.

 

If in fact he isn't being straight with you it's better to know now. However, his cell phone may not tell you that much - if he's gotten caught doing this kind of thing before he'll know enough to make the bulk of his phone calls from work or other phones with no record. SO again - we're back to you not trusting him....are you convinced that he has changed, and why? His lying about calling her isn't a good sign.

[JaneInVegas]

Did he get counseling or somehow demonstrate that he saw the error of his previous ways and corrected them?

 

If in fact he isn't being straight with you it's better to know now. However, his cell phone may not tell you that much - if he's gotten caught doing this kind of thing before he'll know enough to make the bulk of his phone calls from work or other phones with no record. SO again - we're back to you not trusting him....are you convinced that he has changed, and why? His lying about calling her isn't a good sign.

 

No counseling, but last summer he seemed very humbled and sad when he told me about it, even though that doesn't count for much.

 

The cell phone record would at least give me a history of the past year and a half since we've been together. If he's talked to her regularly, I know for a FACT it's time to move on without him. If it's only a few times, well, I think I could deal with that. I would just have to get him to agree to cut her loose forever.

 

And no ... marriage right now is out of the question. He has to figure out a way to regain my trust.

[Mr. Lucky]

I'm not even going to ask what happened to Elizabeth . Your fiancee has been married (at least) twice, cheated on both and now is laying the groudwork to cheat on you. What "trust" is left to regain?

 

Mr. Lucky

Edited October 4, 2009 by Mr. Lucky

[loveslife]

Wow, I don't envy you this situation. Their relationship seems to be shrouded in secrecy so with the evidence of his calling her you have every reason to doubt.

 

It seems to me that a healthy person focuses on moving on from relationships that don't work. That never happened for him.

 

I guess, for me, what's more disturbing than him maybe still possibly carrying a torch for her (which is pretty alarming in itself after all these years) is the fact that secrets and lies seem to be part and parcel of their relationship. That would bother me a lot.

 

If it were me I'd try and approach it really upfront. Tell him you're finding it hard to trust him. I don't know how he can prove anything. Some cell phone records don't include phone numbers called just minutes used.

 

I'd suggest calling her but she'd probably lie, too. Besides that's a little inappropriate.

[Athena]

 

Any thoughts greatly appreciated

 

Here are my thoughts: You probably pride yourself on your commitment and consistency of character, so are caught by your own way of being.

You are engaged to this man -- you have ALREADY given your commitment to marry him. You, like most of us, want to be consistent in the commitment you made... so you are now Looking To Forgive him so that you can continue your earlier commitment of being engaged to him.

 

Tell him as much as you want to continue with the life together you both had, he has destroyed the trust between you and thereby released you from your commitment to marry him. He, of all people, should very well know what happens when he continues to keep contact with his very long term affair partner... he has SEEN it, LIVED it -- two destroyed marriages, and yet he Continues to do the same ole, same ole.

 

He is a liar. But he doesn't want to live alone. He likes the benefits of a committed relationship. He portrayed himself as someone who can be committed to YOU, but he just showed you he cannot.

Trust that feeling in the pit of your stomach -- it is telling you not to marry him.

 

You cannot pretend not to know about him now... you have to do the right thing by you, and follow what you know you should do.

For what it's worth, I too think you shouldn't trust him. I too, think you must break off your commitment to marry this man. It's short-term pain now, on top of the pain of his betrayal of your trust, as opposed to a marriage to an untrustworthy man. This is my opinion, but I figure in your heart it's yours too

 

Ask yourself this question, "Knowing what I now know, would I do this all over again if given the chance from the beginning?" Ignore the logical reasoning, LISTEN to your FIRST gut reply, a simple "yes" or "no" - which one is it Jane?

Edited October 4, 2009 by Athena

[inhindsight]

 

I'm SO sorry Jane, I really feel quite terrible for you and the position you are in.

 

He needs to REALLY regain your trust, and I believe the only way he will be able to get past this Ann is to go through IC. His history reveal he never really got over her, and I'm so sorry for being blunt about this, but my fear is that you guys will eventually get married.... THen some time down the road and Ann will call him out of the blue announcing she FINALLY left her husband... and that she wanted him back. Can you trust him 100% that he would stick by you in this situation? If he doesn't take some pretty big steps by going to some IC to demonstrate that he REALLY wants to get over her and that YOU are the one he loves... then you need to make some tough decisions.

 

the fact that he even had to call her old number to see if she lived there..... why? why now? What purpose would that have served? There is no reason for this. Being curious certainly isn't a reason.

 

If he goes to couselling with you and also on his own, these are great ways for him to show he's ready to move on....

[loveslife]

 

I'm SO sorry Jane, I really feel quite terrible for you and the position you are in.

 

He needs to REALLY regain your trust, and I believe the only way he will be able to get past this Ann is to go through IC. His history reveal he never really got over her, and I'm so sorry for being blunt about this, but my fear is that you guys will eventually get married.... THen some time down the road and Ann will call him out of the blue announcing she FINALLY left her husband... and that she wanted him back. Can you trust him 100% that he would stick by you in this situation? If he doesn't take some pretty big steps by going to some IC to demonstrate that he REALLY wants to get over her and that YOU are the one he loves... then you need to make some tough decisions.

 

the fact that he even had to call her old number to see if she lived there..... why? why now? What purpose would that have served? There is no reason for this. Being curious certainly isn't a reason.

 

If he goes to couselling with you and also on his own, these are great ways for him to show he's ready to move on....

 

Do you think it's possible that someone who is so used to lying to their intimate partners would be honest in a commitment to counseling? Do you think he could be trusted if he says he's giving up this woman he's obsessed over for decades?

 

It sounds like his lying could be quite pathological, like he can't help himself. And people like that might use something like therapy to convince you to trust them but it's really just coercion.

[inhindsight]

Do you think it's possible that someone who is so used to lying to their intimate partners would be honest in a commitment to counseling? Do you think he could be trusted if he says he's giving up this woman he's obsessed over for decades?

 

It sounds like his lying could be quite pathological, like he can't help himself. And people like that might use something like therapy to convince you to trust them but it's really just coercion.

 

 

Actually, loveslife... i have to be perfectly honest... (and I'm really sorry Jane) I do not believe that he has the ability to be honest - at least not where his feelings for this Ann are concerend. I don't know him in any other aspect except what we've all been told.

 

But we don't know whether or not he has engaged in any counselling. If he hasn't in the past, then it's possible that if he does going forward, it could be a step in the right direction... at least for him.

 

Ultimately, I think that he won't be able to engage in ANY relationships in the future until he addresses his issues honestly... but unfortunately he's not the one on here telling us all his feelings.

[misternoname]

Don't walk away...RUN away! If you marry this man, be ready to face future infidelity. If I had to do it over again I would have left my wife the first time I caught her cheating. She was like a locust...a few years would go by and all was good and then bam...another affair (and another and another!). Past behavior is a strong prediction of future behavior. I do believe that there are people that screw up and never repeat again but I think they are an exception to the rule. My unprofessional opinion is this...most cheaters have someting in their "wiring" that makes them step out of the relationship. It may be insecurity, boredom, thrill seeking, etc but whatever it is, it drives them to forgo their vows to satisfy their own ego boosting desires.

 

My ex immediately hooked up after our separation and is already engaged (all in less than a year). I know for a fact she's already cheated on her fiancee (eventhough she swears she's "changed"). Nothing has changed except who she's cheating on now!

 

Do yourself a favor and find someone loyal...this dude isn't loyal, isn't trustworthy and isn't marriage material.

 

Sorry to be harsh but I wish like hell I had received the same advice years ago :-(

[Athena]

If I had to do it over again I would have left my wife the first time I caught her cheating. She was like a locust...a few years would go by and all was good and then bam...another affair (and another and another!).

 

My husband too -- he cheated on his first wife, several times in their marriage, and in our marriage too. LOL about the 'locust' -- yes, my H is like them too -- every couple of years there's another plague!

 

Jane, you are signing yourself up for much of the same. Why? Because your fiancé is already a man of habit -- over years and years of cheating and on two women, too. Your locust is like mine, except yours is already on his woman #3 (you) and mine is not there yet, still on #2 (that's me).

[misternoname]

"Locust" was too kind...too bad cockroaches don't go into hiding for extended periods. That would have been a more appropriate comparison! LOL

[JaneInVegas]

Thank you everyone for your insight and honesty.

 

Last night I laid everything on the line, and Mike wants us to go to counseling. He refuses to give me access to his cell phone records, mainly because he has a huge privacy issue. I told him that if we do go to counseling, he had best be prepared to discuss Ann with the counselor, otherwise we would be wasting our time and money. He very amicably agreed, and I feel (mostly) positive about this.

 

Marriage has been officially taken off the table. I told him it was no longer an option until he somehow manages to prove himself, and gain back my trust.

 

I may have been born at night ... but it wasn't last night ...

[misternoname]

Privacy issues??? More like "something to hide" issues. Been there done that. Oh, and we did the counseling thing...she lied her ass off in those sessions. If marriage is "off the table" then what's the point? If I were you I'd cut my losses and give thanks that you could get out without the hassle of a divorce. He sounds like a louse and you appear to be a decent woman. Pity...

[Athena]

Oh Jane!

 

You are following his script.

 

He only has a Privacy issue about his cell phone bill, because after you see it, you would leave him... and you in your heart of hearts know this, and so you are not pushing for it.

 

So, you are going the counseling route? Been there done that (honestly, where the heck do these Cheaters GET this Script from?!)

He's buying himself some time, then will turn up the charm with you, and lull you into a sense of false security.

 

I feel sorry for you, but at the same time I understand you are wishing for it all to get better so you are doing whatever you can... bottom line... You CANNOT change this man.

Sorry.

[Athena]

Jane,

 

I am curious -- what WAS your initial response to the question I posed earlier this thread about Knowing what you know now, would you do this all over again? That quick first little answer -- the Yes, or the No -- NOT the Logical Reasoning...

What was your initial gut answer?

[Athena]

Regarding his 'claim' of Privacy Issues: He has no problem TELLING you about very private stuff, and yet ONLY when it comes to his showing you the evidence -- the proof -- to back up his 'story', does the privacy issues AGAINST you (and your relationship, and Trust establishment) kick in!

 

In other words, he doesn't mind talking and talking to Convince you of it, but will not SHOW you the bill to back up the veracity of his claims... -- is this sounding any alarm bells for you Jane?

 

He has a solid track history of LYING to the women in his life, that he loves (today this is you), the way to prove himself lies within his hands to show you, but he points to Privacy Issues to escape, and you allow him to use that escape hatch (you are in denial here). The only issue he has is that he doesn't want you to know what he's Really Been Up To -- because it's ALL BAD.

[loveslife]

Showing you the cell phone records would be a really easy way for him to assure you that he doesn't use his cell phone to call this woman. What he is saying is he expects you to trust him even though he has proven himself untrustworthy.

 

These guys really do read from a script. Notice how it's all about HIM, what HE wants.

 

I know you want to believe him and you're not going to hear the truth until you're ready. Come back here when you are ready.

[inhindsight]

Oh Jane... I feel for you.

Please know that I know this hurts for you. My H is hurting badly, and I would do ANYTHING in my power to give him what he needs to feel security and trust between us. I have been working on this very hard with him for several months.

 

One of the things I did post-A, was immediately give him access to my cell phone, bank account and credit card statements. I don't know if he checked any of them, to tell you the truth, but the fact that I GAVE THEM TO HIM was a strong indicator that I was trying to rebuild his trust. If I had ANYTHING to hide, I would not be giving him this information.

 

If you fiance is unwilling to share his cell phone bill with you, then this is a huge red flag. Counselling is great but it is possible for you to go to counselling and have him lie the whole way through it.

 

One of my best friends just did joint counselling with her long-term boyfriend - he has had issues in the past with drug and alcohol addiction - he said all the right things at the right times, swore he loved her, that he would do anything to show her he was clean... he seemed very sincere.

 

And then my friend walked in on him shooting up with a woman he had been having sex with for the last 6 months.

 

A liar and a cheater will say and do anything to avoid getting caught. I know this from experience. Until they are willing to embrace change and honesty, they will never give full disclosure and transparency.

 

PLEASE insist on his accepting your terms of full disclosure and transparency, allowing you access to whatever information YOU NEED TO FEEL SECURE TO TRUST HIM. If he doesn't, please walk away. He is NOT ready for an honest relationship.

 

I am SO sorry to say all this, I am. But it IS the truth.

[JaneInVegas]

Last Saturday I had a long heart to heart talk with Mike's sister. She was totally irate when I told her I strongly suspect he's talking to Ann. She asked how I knew that, and I told her everything, including the "calling to hang up on her" part. His sister's jaw dropped and she said, "You're kidding me! He calls me at least once a week and hangs up on me, he's done that for years."

 

I was like ... "Aw c'mon, puh-leeze" but on the spot she called another one of their sisters in California, and she passed the phone to me, and without her sister hearing ANYthing about what had prompted this conversation in the first place, she said that Mike calls and hangs up on her about once a week or so.

 

WTF ??? Who DOES such a thing? - especially to his SISTERS? Now before you all start calling me naive, I do NOT automatically buy into this alibi with Ann. His off the wall weird habit with his sisters may (or may not) have just been a convenient lie he came up with on the spot.

 

I have a question, does anyone here use Verizon for your cell? On your monthly ON LINE bill (he does not receive a paper bill) does it show phone numbers for both INCOMING and OUTGOING calls? I ask because my own carrier shows the numbers for those dialed, but outgoing calls are just listed as "outgoing", no other information provided other than the number of minutes used. Why do I ask? ... because I want to verify that getting a keylogger will be worth the $$$ before I spend it. If I can't prove or disprove he's been calling Ann, it's not worth my money.

 

Also, one last thing ... I should become a Private Investigator! I really should! With only a minimal amount of information, I was able to track Ann and her husband down. I know their home address, his work address, I have 3 phone numbers for them, and I have learned they are somewhat upstanding people in their community. Soooo, I'm thinking about maybe calling Ann, telling her I know how to reach her stupid rich husband, and telling him to buy a bigger, stronger leash for her. Okay, I'd put it more nicely than that (if I ever would call him directly in the first place, prolly not) but you get the idea. If Ann was faced with losing all that precious money she values more than love itself, well, maybe I could get things fixed on THAT end.

 

Thoughts???

[mybrowneyedgirl]

i would just like to say that maybe he is giving complete transparency.

 

i told my husband ALL when it came to my affair. every last detail. ive also given up all emails/passwords/phone records. everything.

 

but still (and i completely understand this) there are times when he questions me. im not complaining. i understand. but the times that hes worried about are sometimes so ridiculous its funny to me because i'd never even dream of using something like going to the grocery store as an excuse to see the xMM (of course i'd never tell i find it funny).

 

so really, in my situation my H has NOTHING to worry about. but still, because of what ive done, he does worry. so maybe give him the benefit of the doubt. its normal to have concerns but maybe he really is doing whats right.

[JaneInVegas]

so maybe give him the benefit of the doubt. its normal to have concerns but maybe he really is doing whats right.

 

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It's really hard to just "let go" and trust him after all I know about his situation with Ann. I've pretty much resigned myself to snoop snoop snoop and snoop some more, but not let him know. Once I get it figured out for sure one way or the other, well, I'll deal with it then.

 

I gotta tell ya, it's hard to trust once you've been trampled on. It's like that old Great White song, Once Bitten Twice Shy

[JaneInVegas]

Jane,

 

I am curious -- what WAS your initial response to the question I posed earlier this thread about Knowing what you know now, would you do this all over again? That quick first little answer -- the Yes, or the No -- NOT the Logical Reasoning...

What was your initial gut answer?

 

Athena, my gut reactions have been so mixed that I don't feel like I can trust them. One day I want to love him and be with him forever and that I'm crazy to think there's anything between him and Ann, and the next I'm on the verge of axe-murdering him.