Author AlektraClementine Posted October 6, 2009 Author Posted October 6, 2009 I just highlighted the relevant points in the post and it is amazing that she claims it is not about her and her relationship but it is all about her and being in a relationship where she is not satisfied sexually and he is not willing to improve the situation. I am amazed re-reading the OP and I can't understand the point, unless it is another backhanded insult that men are lousy in bed and not willing to do anything about it, even when told (thus another often heard retort that men are bad listeners). Both the OP and her "fiance" have my blessing to go cheat...... It's interesting that you'd find a backhanded insult in my OP. Think what you want. This thread is not about me. Though I'll admit it...I totally asked for this backlash.
hopeful1980 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Wow. This conversation is deep. Are spouses who cheat because of sexless marriages victims themselves? IMO, that's a slippery slope to go down. That's basically flipping the script on the BS. It's awful for someone to hear that if they would have just done XYZ, it all could have been prevented. I understand that, but I still think it's a load of BS (and I don't mean betrayed spouse). At the end of the day we all have a choice. Sure a wife (or husband) shouldn't refuse their partner sex. The party who doesn't want sex should figure out a way to want it because they know it's necessary in a healthy marriage. But, you can't blame that person for the other person cheating. I have a really hard time with doing that. It was still the cheaters choice. Sure, they had their reasons but it was still their decision to make. You simply can't overlook that fact.
Dexter Morgan Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 LOL!!!!! This is not my thread, so not going to play with you. Your bitterness is tiring to me oh no, not the "you are bitter" lame.
Author AlektraClementine Posted October 6, 2009 Author Posted October 6, 2009 I know, but then you are denouncing the severing of a relationship in the event that all is lost. THEN the thing to do WOULD be to leave the relationship. so if you are wondering if lack of sex is a "reason" to cheat, and are sick of people that say "leave the relationship" if the alternative is to cheat.....well? Ok I see where I'm being unclear again. Geesh this is difficult. I'm denouncing the severing of a relationship PRIOR to exhausting other efforts (counseling, communication, etc).
pkn06002 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) You justify it for yourself. Is that not condoning cheating? Oh a broad brush stroke here, very desperate and reaching. Where have I ever stated my personal choices are the best ones? And, again, no. I do not condone cheating. You do - but only when it suits your terms of justification. Your the one giving post after post why it would be OK for her to cheat. Sounds like condoning cheating to me. I guess your definition of justification is a pretty loose one. Edited October 6, 2009 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Dexter Morgan Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 LOL!!!!! This is not my thread, so not going to play with you. Your bitterness is tiring to me and counter productive to leaving my past where it belongs. But I will answer you this, shades of gray. Views change over time. sorry bub, you made the statement out of hypocrisy. You mentioned placing blame when thats all you did with your own situation. practice what you preach.
Dexter Morgan Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Ok I see where I'm being unclear again. Geesh this is difficult. I'm denouncing the severing of a relationship PRIOR to exhausting other efforts (counseling, communication, etc). well that is another matter entirely. I completely agree with you on that!! I would NEVER say to end a relationship just out of the blue without trying to work out the problems. Only after a point of no return is passed would I suggest such.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Honestly, my reason for letting you all in on my issues is this. I read a thread where a guy was getting no sex, so he wanted to have an affair. I read that thread and said to myself "hmm, I'm having sexual issues but I an affair hasn't crossed my mind at all". At that point I decided to start a thread of my own to discuss whether or not the 2 are in fact related. My contention is that while it's a good "out" to justify an affair in the cheater's mind, it's not the reason. My contention is that people cheat because they are selfish. Believe it or not, by reading the responses (specifically from James), I understand that it's not so black and white. And I don't think that James is your typical potential cheater. I think he's exhausted a lot of effort in his personal situation and I can admit that I'm not in his shoes. I'm only 32. I've got a lot of years to learn more things. There are those, though who exhaust nothing to better their relationship before deciding to step out. Mostly because they are emotionally stunted. And they'd rather live in a world of justifications and excuses instead of owning the lives they chose. This is a hefty statement to make given that you don't really know me. This is passive-aggressive patronization at it's finest. I don't believe for a second that you really feel this way. First James is not a cheater, just facing some very difficult questions in his life. He has tried, almost obsessively to improve his life and that with his wife, where they have a very good relationship in every aspect but in the bedroom (if we are to believe everything he has written;)). As for me..... I don't know you, but have no reason not to hope you find happiness. Am I surprised by your posts, justifications and rationalizations about your relationship? Yes. Do I wish you the best? Of course, I have no bone to pick, know you in any way, shape or form. Why would I not want to see people happy? I really do hate seeing people unhappy who have the brains and resources to change their situation. Nothing passive/aggressive about my post.
pkn06002 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 I think people either claim the moral high ground when it comes to this issue or they justify cheating as a means. There's the real black and white. I wager that those who justify it have either done it or are thinking seriously about doing it. I wager that those who claim the moral high ground don't have a history of cheating. BTW, what's so wrong with the moral high ground, here? What is wrong with the moral high ground?? There is NO moral high ground in this, affairs do not happen in a vacuum. There is a lot of gray in this whole topic with blame to go around to everyone. Those that want the moral high ground act like they are perfect saints where they have never done anything wrong. Seems a lot of those that want the moral high ground will never own up to their failings in the marriage that helped to set the circumstances that lead to affairs. We had a thread one time basically about sins/morals it boiled down to the fact as long as you did not cheat you could claim the moral high ground regardless of what bad actions/sins you may of done in the marriage. Yes there are standards and expectations that should be meet when you are seriously involved with someone. But to try and use the moral high ground as a club is silly, since there really is not one. But then again I am a WS so I would not expect you to respect my views because they are different that yours.
pkn06002 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 oh no, not the "you are bitter" lame. For you to you to claim otherwise is dishonest. Now ignoring you.
Author AlektraClementine Posted October 6, 2009 Author Posted October 6, 2009 First James is not a cheater, just facing some very difficult questions in his life. He has tried, almost obsessively to improve his life and that with his wife, where they have a very good relationship in every aspect but in the bedroom (if we are to believe everything he has written;)). As for me..... I don't know you, but have no reason not to hope you find happiness. Am I surprised by your posts, justifications and rationalizations about your relationship? Yes. Do I wish you the best? Of course, I have no bone to pick, know you in any way, shape or form. Why would I not want to see people happy? I really do hate seeing people unhappy who have the brains and resources to change their situation. Nothing passive/aggressive about my post. Thanks, I appreciate your well wishes. It's just that when you wish someone well right after saying that you find it funny that they are lost....it doesn't come across very believable. Thing is, I'm happy. I'm using my brains and resources to change my situation. Perhaps I'm not using the same resources or paths you would or have. Maybe that's the bone you have to pick. Still, I'd like to think that no matter how frustrating my sexual life may be right now, I won't cheat and cause my partner that kind of anguish. I'd like to think that he won't either. Again, highlighting my situation is not a cry for help. It's to better explain why I feel the way I do about this issue. Simply deciding an issue without any experience would make me even more shot-sighted than you already think I am;)
Author AlektraClementine Posted October 6, 2009 Author Posted October 6, 2009 What is wrong with the moral high ground?? There is NO moral high ground in this, affairs do not happen in a vacuum. There is a lot of gray in this whole topic with blame to go around to everyone. Those that want the moral high ground act like they are perfect saints where they have never done anything wrong. Seems a lot of those that want the moral high ground will never own up to their failings in the marriage that helped to set the circumstances that lead to affairs. We had a thread one time basically about sins/morals it boiled down to the fact as long as you did not cheat you could claim the moral high ground regardless of what bad actions/sins you may of done in the marriage. Yes there are standards and expectations that should be meet when you are seriously involved with someone. But to try and use the moral high ground as a club is silly, since there really is not one. But then again I am a WS so I would not expect you to respect my views because they are different that yours. I respect your views. Of course I do. And I have PLENTY of my own failings to contend with.
JamesM Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 in so many words, you did say the BS is at fault. Ok, now I know you will come back and say that isn't what you are saying, but come on. The whole post smacks of, "the BS pushed the WS into an affair". Attempting to say what I meant failed. The BS did not push the WS into an affair, and perhaps if I were the BS, then I would deny that anything I did caused the affair. Yet that cannot be ignored. Withholding emotional intimacy or sexual intimacy does contribute to the WS choice. It has not made the choice for him or her. The WS is responsible for how he or she chooses based on the situation he or she is on. Yet to sit back as the one who helped create the situation and say, "You are the only one to blame for choosing an affair" is another way of saying, "Only you decide the health of this marriage." This not only makes the BS a victim, it means that the BS never had any influence on the marriage good or bad. It takes two to make a good marriage. It takes two to make a bad marriage. Choosing to withhold sex will definitely contribute to a bad marriage, and choosing sex outside of marriage contributes to a bad marriage. Both can end the marriage. We all make choices in every part of our life based on the situations we are in. We are responsible for those choices, but the situation presented us with good and bad options. oh is that all they were? They were the victims here, therefore of course its understandable that they get it elsewhere:rolleyes: No, it is understandable WHY they chose what they did, but in no way would I ever say they were helpless victims. I wish now I could go back and do things differently and realize that since I was sexually neglected in my marriage, I could have gone out and had a grand old time and still be considered a victim. Trying to explain it in plain English. Understanding why someone does what they do is not condoning or taking away their responsibility for what they did. BUT....sitting back and saying that they alone are to blame for choosing an affair as if they would have chosen that affair if in a perfect or even good marriage takes away the responsibility of the other person in that marriage. It gives one partner free reign and the other is chained.
Dexter Morgan Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 For you to you to claim otherwise is dishonest. Now ignoring you. not claiming I have a little bitterness. there isn't a person that hasn't been betrayed that isn't going to have at least a little. Just as I'm sure your wife still has bitterness over what you did to her. What I'm saying is your lame attempt doesn't get my goat. You aren't witty enough.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Thanks, I appreciate your well wishes. It's just that when you wish someone well right after saying that you find it funny that they are lost....it doesn't come across very believable. Thing is, I'm happy. I'm using my brains and resources to change my situation. Perhaps I'm not using the same resources or paths you would or have. Maybe that's the bone you have to pick. Still, I'd like to think that no matter how frustrating my sexual life may be right now, I won't cheat and cause my partner that kind of anguish. I'd like to think that he won't either. Again, highlighting my situation is not a cry for help. It's to better explain why I feel the way I do about this issue. Simply deciding an issue without any experience would make me even more shot-sighted than you already think I am;) I hope this does not fester long and there is a resolution. Sorry in this area, we do equate sex with love and of significant importance in a long-term relationship. Look when you've had a bad day at work, busy with running a house, kids, family and bills, having a loving spouse means a lot and sex is one of the great stress relievers around......
Dexter Morgan Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 No, it is understandable WHY they chose what they did, but in no way would I ever say they were helpless victims. "while the WS is simply a victim of circumstances" but a victim nonetheless I suppose:confused: Trying to explain it in plain English. Understanding why someone does what they do is not condoning or taking away their responsibility for what they did. in some ways yes, it is. and it does attempt to mitigate the seriousness of their actions....whether that was the intention or not. BUT....sitting back and saying that they alone are to blame for choosing an affair as if they would have chosen that affair if in a perfect or even good marriage takes away the responsibility of the other person in that marriage. It gives one partner free reign and the other is chained. They ARE to blame for CHOOSING to get sex outside the relationship. The BS didn't drive them to the AP house, give them a condom and said, "have fun". The BS is only partly responsible for the state of the marriage and is in NO WAY responsible for the WS's CHOICE to screw someone else. The blame on that one lies SOLELY with the WS.
Untouchable_Fire Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Thanks, I appreciate your well wishes. It's just that when you wish someone well right after saying that you find it funny that they are lost....it doesn't come across very believable. Thing is, I'm happy. I'm using my brains and resources to change my situation. Perhaps I'm not using the same resources or paths you would or have. Maybe that's the bone you have to pick. Still, I'd like to think that no matter how frustrating my sexual life may be right now, I won't cheat and cause my partner that kind of anguish. I'd like to think that he won't either. Again, highlighting my situation is not a cry for help. It's to better explain why I feel the way I do about this issue. Simply deciding an issue without any experience would make me even more shot-sighted than you already think I am;) AC, It takes a ton of strength to do that. It's human nature to crave what you don't have. It's kind of like air, you don't think about it much... until your not getting any. Some people, myself included think we can handle it... then crash and burn when temptation comes. Some people, perhaps yourself, can fight through all the bad to create something good. YOU need to find out WHY your BF won't put out the effort to make things good. I've never met a guy who prides himself on being bad in bed. Usually when guys let this kind of thing slide it means something... like he is super insecure about it.... or he just doesn't care how you feel... ect. What steps have you taken so far? And yes, this thread is all about you and your life situation...
JamesM Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 They ARE to blame for CHOOSING to get sex outside the relationship. And I have said that a few times already. The BS didn't drive them to the AP house, give them a condom and said, "have fun". No, but when the BS says, "I refuse sex" or withholds sex with no given reason simply because he or she no longer desires it, then attempts to play the victim when the WS chooses an affair, it is a little difficult to say that EITHER are victims. Sexual intimacy is a wonderful way of expressing love to one another. Withholding it or giving it to someone else are both actions of infidelity and betrayal. The BS is only partly responsible for the state of the marriage and is in NO WAY responsible for the WS's CHOICE to screw someone else. Yes and no. Yes, the BS is responsible for the state of marriage and yes the WS made the choice to screw someone else. Yet it cannot be ignored that BOTH do actions that cause a reaction from their partner.
pkn06002 Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 JamesM, Just wanted to say KUDOS your posts are very spot on.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 AC, It takes a ton of strength to do that. It's human nature to crave what you don't have. It's kind of like air, you don't think about it much... until your not getting any. Some people, myself included think we can handle it... then crash and burn when temptation comes. Some people, perhaps yourself, can fight through all the bad to create something good. YOU need to find out WHY your BF won't put out the effort to make things good. I've never met a guy who prides himself on being bad in bed. Usually when guys let this kind of thing slide it means something... like he is super insecure about it.... or he just doesn't care how you feel... ect. What steps have you taken so far? And yes, this thread is all about you and your life situation... She has said they have talked to length about it and he has not taken it to heart. I usually am the first for details, but not in this case. I am amazed like you that he has done nothing to improve the situation and that I find incredibly interesting, as I agree men are usually very self-conscious about performance. I guess since I am pulling for AC, I don't want to hear (read?) her say that she has asked him to do high-risk kink/extreme sex that would then unleash a whole new kettle of fish. I take AC at her word, that she is unhappy has asked him to work harder, not be so selfish...... and not much more....
LakesideDream Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 Relationships are difficult enough without one (or the other) partner deliverately making choices that will weaken the bond. The OP seems to have this under control and is taking the steps needed to leave the relationship. Kudo's to her. Her partner is going to have to deal with the situation in his own way. Neither is going to be having much fun for awhile. I say let this failed relationship rest in peace.
giotto Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 So. My question is. Are you SURE that lack of sex is what's causing you to think about an affair or could it be that you're just plain ole' selfish. it wouldn't just be the lack of sex, but the lack of connection, intimacy, feeling wanted and appreciated. Whatever the reason for this, if it's missing, the man might be tempted to have an affair. Personally, I wouldn't, but I can see how men can be tempted in the right circumstances, maybe after a few drinks. We all need love and if it goes/is withhold/denied, the chances are that we might want to find it somewhere else. And not all men are "polite" enough to discuss it with their wives first...
Author AlektraClementine Posted October 6, 2009 Author Posted October 6, 2009 Relationships are difficult enough without one (or the other) partner deliverately making choices that will weaken the bond. The OP seems to have this under control and is taking the steps needed to leave the relationship. Kudo's to her. Her partner is going to have to deal with the situation in his own way. Neither is going to be having much fun for awhile. I say let this failed relationship rest in peace. This is really nice of you to say. I thank you for the objective view. That's always helpful.
Author AlektraClementine Posted October 6, 2009 Author Posted October 6, 2009 I guess since I am pulling for AC, I don't want to hear (read?) her say that she has asked him to do high-risk kink/extreme sex that would then unleash a whole new kettle of fish. Nah. I'm saving this for our 20 or 30th anniversary. REALLY throw him for a loop. I take AC at her word, that she is unhappy has asked him to work harder, not be so selfish...... and not much more.... If you only knew... I'm pretty bull-headed.
Untouchable_Fire Posted October 6, 2009 Posted October 6, 2009 She has said they have talked to length about it and he has not taken it to heart. I usually am the first for details, but not in this case. I am amazed like you that he has done nothing to improve the situation and that I find incredibly interesting, as I agree men are usually very self-conscious about performance. Only women consider talking a step. I don't think she has really done anything about the situation... yet. It may fix itself over time... who knows? I guess since I am pulling for AC, I don't want to hear (read?) her say that she has asked him to do high-risk kink/extreme sex that would then unleash a whole new kettle of fish. Her relationship sounds great in most other departments. Your thinking of some David Carradine stuff aren't you! I take AC at her word, that she is unhappy has asked him to work harder, not be so selfish...... and not much more.... I can't really say what the problem is for sure, but I can tell you that as a guy, it's just not normal to let the situation be. The guys who do that usually either don't care, or don't have any hope. It sounds like he cares. Why would he feel hopeless? She needs to get all of the puzzle pieces before this one starts to make sense.
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