NoIDidn't Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 I don't see how telling Alectra that the fact that she is not married negates her feelings. In some cultures, engaged IS married (or just about anyway). I agree with her sentiment though. I remember when my H was the one withholding sex from me. I remember when he basically said what James' W said to him, to me! But I wasn't interested in cheating. I wanted to fix what WE had. He wanted to run away from it. Sure, I could have cheated. I had his permission to do so. But I wasn't interested. I agree that lack of sex doesn't make one more likely to cheat. However, the lack of that emotional connection and bond (that the oxytocin released during physical contact creates) WILL erode the other areas of the relationship - AND THAT WILL make you more likely to cheat.
clv0116 Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 I'd like to open a dialogue about whether or not lack of sex or incompatibilities in your sexual relationship is what really drives people to affairs. I'd say that's 100% true, at least for men. I don't know a single guy who has cheated without complaining about the lack of sex at home for months or years first. My contention is that it's a complete and total BS answer. I think certain personalities are capable of affairs and promise breaking (on that grand of a scale) and some personalities are not. That's probably true, but that would be a factor AGAINST an affair. Maybe the motives for are not strong enough to break this in some people, but you can't chalk up all affairs to lack of moral brakes. Somewhere there has to be a foot on the gas.
clv0116 Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 Saying your spouse wouldn't have sex with you and that's why you cheated is an excuse. I'd say it's a motive, not a good reason. They are different.
MistyK Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 ISo. My question is. Are you SURE that lack of sex is what's causing you to think about an affair or could it be that you're just plain ole' selfish. Well, my affair was absolutely not about lack of sex. In fact, my xH wanted it WAY more than I did. We really weren't compatible in that way - he convinced me that something was wrong with me because I didn't want sex. Turns out, my sex drive is quite healthy, I just didn't want sex with HIM. I later discovered that I had plenty of desire that I was able to direct at another target. My lack of interest in sex with xH was borne of deeper relationship problems as well as the sexual incompatibility (let's just say I'm a vanilla kinda girl and he is the kind to throw ketchup on mint-choc chip ice cream). My interest in the OM was more about the intellectual and emotional bond we had - things I never really had with my xH, and that was what brought on the A. It's sad, but it took the A to show me how miserable I really was in my M and that my life didn't have to be that way even if I didn't end up with OM.
SueBee3490 Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 I'd say that's 100% true, at least for men. I don't know a single guy who has cheated without complaining about the lack of sex at home for months or years first. This is not true. I can count my H as the "single guy" who never complained about not having enough sex. My H and I had sex alot and I always told him how much I loved him, and loved making love to him, etc. That didn't matter - he still cheated. Even though we had sex alot, when my H was married to his first wife, he said that they didn't have sex for 18 mos but he never cheated on her!! WTF! She was actually the one having the affair. I guess he just loved her but didn't love me.
Trialbyfire Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 This is not true. I can count my H as the "single guy" who never complained about not having enough sex. My H and I had sex alot and I always told him how much I loved him, and loved making love to him, etc. That didn't matter - he still cheated. Even though we had sex alot, when my H was married to his first wife, he said that they didn't have sex for 18 mos but he never cheated on her!! WTF! She was actually the one having the affair. I guess he just loved her but didn't love me.SueBee, did he ever lie to you? If so, don't be surprised if he lied to you about his first wife.
clv0116 Posted October 2, 2009 Posted October 2, 2009 This is not true. I can count my H as the "single guy" who never complained about not having enough sex. Maybe, but I'd say it's more likely he never complained to you about it.
Author AlektraClementine Posted October 5, 2009 Author Posted October 5, 2009 Been gone for a few days. Moving into a new house. Thanks for all the replies. I do want to address one thing before going through all the responses (if I can!) Withholding sex isn't something I'm using to punish him. I just don't feel like going through the motions w/o any rewards anymore. I don't want to cheat. I want to fix the situation with the person I've made a commitment to. And as another poster pointed out, I may not be legally married, but does that really matter? A piece of paper? Is that what some of you posters think? If so, no wonder marriage is taken so freaking lightly. I've made my choice in a mate. It's a commitment in my heart and his. Not in a document. All that said, it would appear that most of you agree with me. "Lack of Sex" is not a viable stand alone trigger for an affair. Really, there is no excuse for it, IMO. Not when counseling, communication, and divorce are options. And as far as the food/hungry analogy. I get what you're trying to compare there, but I'm sorry....you're not breaking anyone's heart when you shovel a piece of chocolate cake in your mouth.
LakesideDream Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) IMO, if you succumb to said "opportunities", you were predisposed to it to begin with. As dissatisfied as I am sexually, I'm no more likely to screw someone else as I was when the sex was good. Maybe. But no more than willfully not putting effort into getting your partner off. If my fiance cheats on me because I am withholding sex, so be it. It certainly won't be my fault. And it would prove to me that he wasn't really committed to me to begin with. Well there you have it. The lines of conflict are drawn, the die has cast. I especially like your statement "If my fiance cheats on me because I am withholding sex, so be it. It certainly won't be my fault." That says volumes to me. What responsibility will you own if your relationship crashes? My guess is that it's time for your "finace" to move on and find someone more compatible with him at his current stage of life. There is a reason he's your "finace" and not your husband. With no legal bindings, it's Katy bar the door, everyone is free to do what they wish. I suggest you show him this thread, then hold the door open as he vacates the premises, or you do as the case may be. Life's to short to waste it with an incompatible partner, regardless of the reasons for the incompatibility. Edited October 5, 2009 by LakesideDream
delirious Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Asking what kinds of people are likely to have affairs is like asking what people are likely to get married. Nobody is likely to do either. It is not until YOU meet that person that you decide to have an affair, or get married, for most, the meeting of that special person is what decides, it is not that you are likely to have an affair. Serial cheaters excepted.
clv0116 Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 All that said, it would appear that most of you other women agree with me. There, fixed that for you.
HisSweetThing Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Asking what kinds of people are likely to have affairs is like asking what people are likely to get married. Nobody is likely to do either. It is not until YOU meet that person that you decide to have an affair, or get married, for most, the meeting of that special person is what decides, it is not that you are likely to have an affair. Serial cheaters excepted. I agree. My affair happened/is happening because he was/is that special person. We fought it for over ten years.
JamesM Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Well there you have it. The lines of conflict are drawn, the die has cast. I especially like your statement "If my fiance cheats on me because I am withholding sex, so be it. It certainly won't be my fault." That says volumes to me. What responsibility will you own if your relationship crashes? Totally agree. Affairs do not happen in a vacuum unless you are married to a serial cheater. Most affairs come about due to a breakdown in a marriage. So, withholding sex is okay even though it breaks a heart, but getting sex elsewhere is not okay. Being that I am experiencing the refusal of sex, I can attest to how it does break a heart every time you see your partner undressed or partially dressed, knowing that sex is not something she is even considering for whatever reason. As for dismissing the hunger analogy, I think you missed that point. Create a hunger in your partner and expect him to either starve emotionally/physically or fill his hunger elsewhere. And if you are telling your partner that you expect he can only get his cake with you...yet for whatever reason you refuse to "feed" him, then how can anyone say that it is completely his/her fault for choosing an affair? I say...very few people premeditate affairs. Most "choose" one step by step. Just one more "bite." And the next thing they find they ate the whole enchilada. Suddenly they like it. You say there are so many other options? Counseling? Divorce? Communication? Let's see..... Communication is the least likely option. Yes, the starving partner can tell his/her partner how he/she needs sex. The refuser will pretty much laugh or turn it into a "your need, not mine" rather than a need for "our" marriage. So, I am guessing that by the time an affair happens, the person has tried this option. Counseling is a better option IF the refuser sees this problem as "our" problem. If not, then it is highly unlikely that he or she will go for that purpose. Odds are that there are other issues, but no one sees them. Divorce. The pain that comes from a divorce would be even worse IMO. Yes, an affair is painful, but having marriages fixed, I can say that this does not have to be final. How can divorce much better than an affair? This is final and says it is over. Try explaining to your friends and neighbors that "I divorced her because she wouldn't have sex with me." Not only is it a laughable reason, but it makes the person responsible to seem a bit of a jerk. "Surely you can't be serious" to "If she was mine, there wouldn't have been a problem" are a couple of the responses made. Yet if the sexless victim were to have an affair and the refuser divorced him/her, then you can be certain that the refuser would definitely be the victim. No question about that. Even if the sexless person had tried everything possible. Stating that "I want a divorce" will do one of two things: it will be taken as an ultimatum and the partner will suddenly become the perfect partner...until the threat of divorce disappears, or it will cause such a self-righteous anger ("So this is all about sex. Is that all I am good for?") that there will be no chance for reconciliation. And all the person wanted was a sexual bond with his/her partner. I do not say that a person choosing an affair can be condoned in this decision, yet I cannot say that no blame rests on the person to whom he or she is married. No, not all cases are like this, but there more than anyone wants to admit. Alektra, consider it BS. Consider it an excuse. And say that those who choose affairs are just looking for a reason. As one who is not in an affair and yet totally understands, I say this is an incorrect assumption, which is my intellectual way of saying...BS. The only good that can come from such a position is a self-righteous indignation that will prevent a person from taking responsibility for a situation that could have been prevented. What can be done prior to an affair is to take a partner seriously who has such concerns. Could be that there is a lack of sexual intimacy. Could be that the partner is "crying" for emotional intimacy. Ignoring either concern will lead to nothing but heartbreak.
clv0116 Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 As one who is not in an affair and yet totally understands, I say this is an incorrect assumption, which is my intellectual way of saying...BS. The only good that can come from such a position is a self-righteous indignation that will prevent a person from taking responsibility for a situation that could have been prevented. "All I did was set and bait the trap, it's the bear's own fault he's dead."
Spark1111 Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Hmmm...no, I do not believe sex or the witholding of it, as a punishment, is typical of most relationships. But it is symptomatic of much deeper issues in the relationship: feeling or perceiving a lack of emotional connection for women; a lack of appreciation for men. Can it be used as the primary reason to engage in an affair? Of course it can and many do. But then again, many do NOT. IMHO, the more important question is: Why aren't we having sex as often as we'd both like? Or, why when we do have it do I still feel so unsatisfied? Or, even more dire is why do I not even want to have sex with you anymore? And to find the answers to THOSE questions, either individually or as couple, requires the desire to seek out professional help and do some hard work. Only you can decide if it is worth your effort.
Toodamnpragmatic Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Been gone for a few days. Moving into a new house. Thanks for all the replies. I do want to address one thing before going through all the responses (if I can!) Withholding sex isn't something I'm using to punish him. I just don't feel like going through the motions w/o any rewards anymore. I don't want to cheat. I want to fix the situation with the person I've made a commitment to. And as another poster pointed out, I may not be legally married, but does that really matter? A piece of paper? Is that what some of you posters think? If so, no wonder marriage is taken so freaking lightly. I've made my choice in a mate. It's a commitment in my heart and his. Not in a document. All that said, it would appear that most of you agree with me. "Lack of Sex" is not a viable stand alone trigger for an affair. Really, there is no excuse for it, IMO. Not when counseling, communication, and divorce are options. And as far as the food/hungry analogy. I get what you're trying to compare there, but I'm sorry....you're not breaking anyone's heart when you shovel a piece of chocolate cake in your mouth. I want to make sure I understand your post. Now you mention "rewards"..... That had better mean only an Orgasm, otherwise are you only together for monetary or financial rewards? You also said he is bad and doesn't care to improve his "technique", yet you have no interest in cheating or frankly laying the law down and telling him that you need "satisfaction" to make it worth having. I really can not follow your thought process......
JamesM Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Hmmm...no, I do not believe sex or the witholding of it, as a punishment, is typical of most relationships. But it is symptomatic of much deeper issues in the relationship: feeling or perceiving a lack of emotional connection for women; a lack of appreciation for men. Understanding that you have gone through much pain from an affair, I want to say that anything I say is not meant to hurt. I agree...most relationships do not have sex being withheld. And many do not end up in affairs....even those that have sexual problems or emotional connection problems. The lack of sex may or may not be symptomatic of other problems, but if those problems are not communicated to the one who gets no sex, then whose fault is this? How can he or she do anything? And if he or she is told, "It is me not you," then what when no change is made? Sometimes I think an affair is used simply as a wakeup call and a desperate attempt to bring some resolve to a situation that is being ignored by one person in the marriage. Can it be used as the primary reason to engage in an affair? Of course it can and many do. But then again, many do NOT. And as a result, the person may be starving while seemingly in a great marriage. And meanwhile, the resentment builds and builds. Divorce does not seem more beneficial, and small piece of hope yet remains. This does not mean that an affair couldn't happen or won't. It simply means that the person hasn't been placed in a vulnerable position with the right person. IMHO, the more important question is: Why aren't we having sex as often as we'd both like? Or, why when we do have it do I still feel so unsatisfied? Or, even more dire is why do I not even want to have sex with you anymore? Agreed. And many books (that I have read) have many answers. And to find the answers to THOSE questions, either individually or as couple, requires the desire to seek out professional help and do some hard work. And then one individual cannot change the other. He or she can try every technique or method offered, but yet he or she cannot change the mind of the one who never feels there is really a problem. Back to the food analogy....if she aint hungry, then how can she see she is starving? Only you can decide if it is worth your effort. But only TWO can decide if the effort will produce results. Affairs are not good, or so I am told, having not experienced any, but being in limbo and feeling rejection while loving someone is not pleasant either. And breaking up a family because "Daddy is a cheater" is acceptable, but breaking up the family because "Mommy doesn't like sex" will be looked at as selfish...at best.
mem11363 Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 AC, I agree 100 percent that selfish, self absorbed sex as the standard pattern is unacceptable. I don't blame you for telling him - I will have sex with you "when you agree that sex needs to be mutually enjoyable and are willing to make the effort to please ME." So far so good. Would you actually be willing to marry him - if nothing changes? I guess my biggest surprise is that you are not accepting this as a simple case of sexual incompatibility and ending it. Because you should not have to use a giant hammer to get him to want to please YOU. If he does not have the innate desire/ability to do so, likely not going to be a happy match. As for the issue regarding cheating. Lets separate 2 very different behaviors: 1. Open: Freely acknowledged sex outside the relationship 2. Sneaking around and hiding outside sexual activity I absolutely believe that sex is a marital obligation. It just is. I also think it is ok to suspend sexual activity if there is a specific MAJOR MAJOR issue you need addressed. And then your partner needs to decide if they are willing to make the effort. I already said I think your reason is fine as would physical abuse, drug/alcohol abuse, etc. But what happens - just asking - you are married 10 years - lose your desire for sex through no fault of your spouse - and then you just tell them - not interested in sex anymore - so we are not going to have sex at all. Do you think that is ok? Do you expect them to stay faithful? How would you respond if your husband loses his desire in 10 years - and says - I just don't want anymore sex. But don't cheat on me. By the way - I am not a good liar - never considered option 2. But option 1, I put that on the table once when I was under severe duress. And I meant it. It never happened - our issue got speedily resolved - but if you made me choose between 3 doors - I would reluctantly pick door number 3. Door 1: Wife says no more sex - full stop - this door is celibacy Door 2: Divorce her find someone else Door 3: Take a lover - she would know there was a lover - but I would not push it in her face Door 1: I don't accept door 1. Even if there is a medical issue - once a week of some alternate type of sexual activity is a minimum long term answer. Celibacy is not acceptable to me. Door 2: I cannot begin to imagine not seeing, being with my wife every day. Door 3: I don't see her agreeing to this - then again there is no way she would ever deny me the minimum contact I need to be happy (see door 1). If it got to the point she really found door 1 that unpleasant, then door 3 it is. But no secrets. AC - I will be shocked if this has a happy ending. Your guy is either very, very immature or simply not sexually compatible with you. I want to make sure I understand your post. Now you mention "rewards"..... That had better mean only an Orgasm, otherwise are you only together for monetary or financial rewards? You also said he is bad and doesn't care to improve his "technique", yet you have no interest in cheating or frankly laying the law down and telling him that you need "satisfaction" to make it worth having. I really can not follow your thought process......
Author AlektraClementine Posted October 5, 2009 Author Posted October 5, 2009 Wow. A LOT of judgment being passed on my relationship. That's okay, I can take it. It's partly my fault that this thread has turned into talking about the specifics of my sex life. That was not my intent when posting this. When I said that it wouldn't be my fault if my fiance cheats, I meant it. I know where my responsibilities lie in the R, and it's certainly not in keeping his wanker out of other girls' vaginas. I am withholding sex as a temporary measure. To continue to "put out" with no rewards (yes, that means orgasms) is building resentment in me. The fiance is currently unmotivated to put more effort into my pleasure. I am currently unwilling to continue to be a "hole". Oddly enough, we are communicating through this. Talking it out. Sex hasn't always been a problem. It's simply a problem at present. That being said, I'm not trying to gauge his likelihood of cheating. I don't think he will. I started this thread with other threads and posters in mind. There's a lot of "my wife/husband won't put out. I think I'll go find someone who will." The way some people get from points A to B is confusing to me. Now, back to the topic of the thread. Lack of sex or incompatibilities in sex a direct cause of cheating?
hopeful1980 Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 I agree Alektra that it's not your fault if your husband cheats. But I also think others make valid points as well. It may not be your fault, but you may be able to stop it from happening and that is where your responsibilty lies in the situation. Wouldn't you want to do the things that help your husband stay faithful to you? I would.
Author AlektraClementine Posted October 5, 2009 Author Posted October 5, 2009 I agree Alektra that it's not your fault if your husband cheats. But I also think others make valid points as well. It may not be your fault, but you may be able to stop it from happening and that is where your responsibilty lies in the situation. Wouldn't you want to do the things that help your husband stay faithful to you? I would. Of course I would. And I do. I don't disagree that sex is a responsibility in a marriage.
JamesM Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 Wow. A LOT of judgment being passed on my relationship. That's okay, I can take it. For myself, I can say that I was not directing my comments at you. Withholding sex as a way to get better sex is different than withholding sex because "I don't like it anymore." I am withholding sex as a temporary measure. To continue to "put out" with no rewards (yes, that means orgasms) is building resentment in me. The fiance is currently unmotivated to put more effort into my pleasure. While I for one cannot condone this as a way to change him, I understand your point. It would be no different than if a guy were to give his woman orgasms and then she rolled over and went to sleep. Can you imagine his frustration? I do think that there should be a better way. And for the life of me, as a guy who LOVES to see his wife wriggling and quivering in pleasure, I cannot understand why he would NOT want to pleasure you. I am currently unwilling to continue to be a "hole". Oddly enough, we are communicating through this. Talking it out. Sex hasn't always been a problem. It's simply a problem at present. And if this gets resolved, then your relationship will be the better for it. There's a lot of "my wife/husband won't put out. I think I'll go find someone who will." The way some people get from points A to B is confusing to me. Being one that feels he has exhausted most every possible reason for the cause of a low libido, any decision to "get it elsewhere" would come with much thought. BUt having said that, I know I am vulnerable for an affair and keep that in my mind when in a situation that could cause one. Seeing and reading the results of an affair make me think that it is still not the best way to cry for help. However, I can understand those who have reached the point of desperation to cry out that way. Now, back to the topic of the thread. Lack of sex or incompatibilities in sex a direct cause of cheating? It can be, but by far it is not the only reason. In your case, if withholding is done as a punishment, then he has two choices: give in to your ultimatum or choose to find someone who he enjoys pleasuring. And you may want to consider the road you are on. If he decides to go with your wishes, then he may still have some resentment inside. Yet this may be the wakeup call he needs. Time will tell.
JamesM Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 I agree Alektra that it's not your fault if your husband cheats. I don't agree. If he chooses to cheat because she gives an ultimatum regarding the sex life, then he has made a choice BASED ON THE OPTIONS GIVEN TO HIM. "Do it my way, or there is no sex." While I understand your reasons, AC, I cannot agree that it would not lead to an affair for your fiancee.
hopeful1980 Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 I don't agree. If he chooses to cheat because she gives an ultimatum regarding the sex life, then he has made a choice BASED ON THE OPTIONS GIVEN TO HIM. "Do it my way, or there is no sex." While I understand your reasons, AC, I cannot agree that it would not lead to an affair for your fiancee. I very well may lead to an affair, but I still don't think it's her fault in that she is not completely to blame. I agree that her actions make it easier for him to take that road, but he still is the one who chooses to take it. James I totally see where you are coming from and I feel for you. It must be very hard to be rejected and denied one of your most fundamental needs. However, it still doesn't mean you go out and cheat. To use the food example someone gave earlier, if I am starving and I go out and steal, I still stole. I still broke the law, even if I had a good reason to do it. It's still not right.
pkn06002 Posted October 5, 2009 Posted October 5, 2009 See this is where the legal status of single makes this an easy call. If the OP wants to be this way her finance should back his bags and get out before he is legally tied to her.
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