stace79 Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 I have been on the forums quite a bit the past week or so, and I keep having a recurring thought. So many people apparently feel like they must have a relationship to be worthwhile. Everyone is asking if A, B or C should bother them; how can they make their SO pay more attention to them; why won't my SO do this or that.... Why don't people understand that being in a R is a choice you make and you can also choose to not be in that R anymore if you are unhappy? My fiance pointed out to me once that in essence 99 out of 100 of your relationships will fail, because ideally you're only supposed to marry one time, if at all. So why do we spend soooooo much time trying to force our Rs to work out? Instead of putting up with all the BS, why don't we just cut our losses and move on?
Fay Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 You seem to like logic, so I'll give you biochemistry for an answer. People form oxytocin bonds with their partners, and this isn't necessarily dependent on whether the partner is the right person for them. When the R starts to go wrong and the bond is encroached upon, the slighted oxytocin bond causes serotonin and dopamine levels to drop. That's called depression. It's also the withdrawal symptoms of any addiction. We crave the person back so we can get those chemicals back to happy levels. The end.
Author stace79 Posted October 1, 2009 Author Posted October 1, 2009 You seem to like logic, so I'll give you biochemistry for an answer. People form oxytocin bonds with their partners, and this isn't necessarily dependent on whether the partner is the right person for them. When the R starts to go wrong and the bond is encroached upon, the slighted oxytocin bond causes serotonin and dopamine levels to drop. That's called depression. It's also the withdrawal symptoms of any addiction. We crave the person back so we can get those chemicals back to happy levels. The end. Interesting -- so break ups are actually a matter of willpower over dependency? At least that explanation makes me feel a bit better about the intelligence of our species.
Fay Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Interesting -- so break ups are actually a matter of willpower over dependency? Of course, isn't it obvious?
Hkizzle Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Interesting -- so break ups are actually a matter of willpower over dependency? At least that explanation makes me feel a bit better about the intelligence of our species. Lol, we're not that intelligent. In fact if you actually study humans properly, you'll realize we're rather dumb and driven by emotions and primal drives. Very few people are truly enlightened.
carhill Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Why don't people understand that being in a R is a choice you make and you can also choose to not be in that R anymore if you are unhappy?I agree with this; even with emotions full invested, a healthy person can make a conscious choice. The complexity of that choice comes, IME, from circumstances. In a vacuum, a conscious choice about a R can be 'easy'; it's the rest of life surrounding that dynamic which makes it hard. How many spouses stay in an unhealthy M because of money and/or the children? That's just one blatant example. We read that stuff here every day. In my case, I stayed in an unhealthy M far longer than I should have because of the emotional stress of caring for my mother, combined with the fear of failure. The combination of the two dynamics (I knew my care for my mother would 'fail' because she was/is terminal) lowered my self esteem to the point where I didn't have the emotional strength to leave. MC helped that aspect immensely. How we feel (our intrinsic emotions) is largely beyond our control. Accepting that, how we behave and what actions we take are completely within our control. That's our 'choice'.
Author stace79 Posted October 1, 2009 Author Posted October 1, 2009 I agree with this; even with emotions full invested, a healthy person can make a conscious choice. The complexity of that choice comes, IME, from circumstances. In a vacuum, a conscious choice about a R can be 'easy'; it's the rest of life surrounding that dynamic which makes it hard. How many spouses stay in an unhealthy M because of money and/or the children? That's just one blatant example. We read that stuff here every day. In my case, I stayed in an unhealthy M far longer than I should have because of the emotional stress of caring for my mother, combined with the fear of failure. The combination of the two dynamics (I knew my care for my mother would 'fail' because she was/is terminal) lowered my self esteem to the point where I didn't have the emotional strength to leave. MC helped that aspect immensely. How we feel (our intrinsic emotions) is largely beyond our control. Accepting that, how we behave and what actions we take are completely within our control. That's our 'choice'. Totally understandable, what you're saying. I guess my thoughts were more along the lines of dating relationships, not marriages. Marriages become increasingly more complicated because of the legal aspect, the potential that children are involved and the combination of finances. It's people my age and younger, I guess, that frustrate me most. They aren't getting what they want out of a R, yet they stay and whine about it and get depressed. (Myself included sometimes.) If you're not legally bound by marriage, or you don't have children together, and especially if you're not cohabiting, why do we still put up with everything that we do? It's mind-boggling. I like the chemical dependency theory best so far.
sumdude Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Instead of putting up with all the BS, why don't we just cut our losses and move on? Many times we do, it just takes a lot of energy to start over. Fear of change is powerful. According to Buddhism attachment is a major cause of human suffering. But what's the option, don't get attached to anyone or anything? Doesn't work for me. Though there are exceptions we are social creatures and pair bonding is built into us. Since you're engaged I find it interesting that you started this thread.
Jersey Shortie Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 I have been on the forums quite a bit the past week or so, and I keep having a recurring thought. So many people apparently feel like they must have a relationship to be worthwhile. I don't think it's that people feel they need a relationship to be worthwhile. I think it's that people WANT a relationship that IS worthwhile. We are born to want to have relationships. My fiance pointed out to me once that in essence 99 out of 100 of your relationships will fail, because ideally you're only supposed to marry one time, if at all. So why do we spend soooooo much time trying to force our Rs to work out? Instead of putting up with all the BS, why don't we just cut our losses and move on? That's a good perspective to keep in mind when things don't work out. From your perspective you are asking why don't people cut their losses and move on, while others here will say that people do that too much before working things out.
carhill Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 It's people my age and younger, I guess, that frustrate me most. They aren't getting what they want out of a R, yet they stay and whine about it and get depressed. (Myself included sometimes.)Yes, I saw this dynamic a lot in female friends when I was your age. It's nothing new. I liken it to people who stay with a 'bad' investment, simply because they don't want to accept the emotional reality of making that poor choice (in retrospect) or 'failing' and then starting over. It's a yearning for the comfort zone of familiarity and the status quo. It's one of the foundations for what I call the 'Cheers effect', named after the TV show, where, upon Norm walking into the bar, everyone says "Norm!" and he feels right at home in the familiar, regardless of the other dynamics going on. I didn't realize you were engaged, as another poster mentioned. If you're having this thought process, I'd suggest some PMC to help you clarify it and other aspects of marriage more clearly. Far better to do it prior, IMO.
Ruby Slippers Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Because we all want to love and be loved. It's human nature. See sig.
Author stace79 Posted October 1, 2009 Author Posted October 1, 2009 Definitely some interesting insight here. Lots of good things to think about -- mostly I was just wanting confirmation that we're not all insane masochists. Carhill -- yes, we will definitely both be participating in PMC. My niece did that with her husband and she said it helped tremendously.
Isolde Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Relationships do take some amount of work, like anything else, so I guess people don't want to let go without a fight... and then it goes on too long.
Hkizzle Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Definitely some interesting insight here. Lots of good things to think about -- mostly I was just wanting confirmation that we're not all insane masochists. Carhill -- yes, we will definitely both be participating in PMC. My niece did that with her husband and she said it helped tremendously. We're not insane, just that our bodies have changed very little from our cavemen ancestors. If pair bonding didn't exist and a cavewoman got pregnant and no one took care of her, then she and her child will likely die. Hence both men and women have mechanisms in their bodies to drive them together. Even if you don't want a baby in the modern world, that mechanism still exists, and you have to fight it whenever you get attached to someone that's treating you like crap.
Star Gazer Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Relationships do take some amount of work, like anything else, so I guess people don't want to let go without a fight... and then it goes on too long. Yeah, that's where I've been before. I didn't want to let go, for fear of having wasted time and energy.
Hkizzle Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Yeah, that's where I've been before. I didn't want to let go, for fear of having wasted time and energy. Well that's the hard part of cutting loses. It's like investing. A lot of investors lose everything on an investment despite a company being crap because they don't want to lose what they've already lost. Instead they watch as the company goes bankrupt and they get wiped out. Cutting a loss and taking that loss is one of the hardest and most counterintuitive things in human nature. Humans like to hope which is good when a friend or relative is ill. But when it comes to relationships and investing, hope is a really bad thing, because it makes a person get boiled alive like a frog in a pot of cold water over a hot stove.
Star Gazer Posted October 1, 2009 Posted October 1, 2009 Well that's the hard part of cutting loses. It's like investing. A lot of investors lose everything on an investment despite a company being crap because they don't want to lose what they've already lost. Instead they watch as the company goes bankrupt and they get wiped out. Cutting a loss and taking that loss is one of the hardest and most counterintuitive things in human nature. Humans like to hope which is good when a friend or relative is ill. But when it comes to relationships and investing, hope is a really bad thing, because it makes a person get boiled alive like a frog in a pot of cold water over a hot stove. Agreed. It took me a long time to figure out how to cut my losses and move on. So glad I did though!!!
Author stace79 Posted October 1, 2009 Author Posted October 1, 2009 Many times we do, it just takes a lot of energy to start over. Fear of change is powerful. According to Buddhism attachment is a major cause of human suffering. But what's the option, don't get attached to anyone or anything? Doesn't work for me. Though there are exceptions we are social creatures and pair bonding is built into us. Since you're engaged I find it interesting that you started this thread. I started it because I used to be one of those people whose whole world fell apart if some guy didn't like me the way I wanted him to... One time I put myself in the hospital over a break up because I stopped eating and was running obsessively to get my mind off the break up. Lost 20 pounds in a month. I see it mostly in women, and I feel so badly for girls growing up around me who don't have the self-esteem to take care of themselves first and not be so demolished if a relationship doesn't work out, particularly when you think of the odds for each individual relationship you might be in in one lifetime. I am a lot better now, and I don't know if it's just experience that helped me or what, but now I know I will live with or without my relationship. I don't NEED it.
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