giotto Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 Short answer: because she wants me to. Long answer: We've read many self-help books on marriage and divorce, and the one that seemed most accurate in defining what when wrong in our marriage was Crazy Time. In healthy marriages, there needs to be a balance of power. In not-so-healthy marriages where one spouse becomes dominant and the other passive, resentments build up in the passive spouse until a breaking point occurs. The dominant/passive roles are just as likely to be male/female or female/male and are usually established very early in the marriage, sometimes even during the engagement period. When the passive spouse finally has had enough and decides to leave, a) the dominant spouse feels betrayed because they thought everything was ok, and b) the passive spouse feels guilty about finally making a decision for themselves. My wife and I fit this to a T, with me being in the passive role, and feeling guilty. You do know that guilt is repressed anger?
WalkInThePark Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 RobertLS, have you ever considered doing individual counseling? I think that might help you more. Might help you decide who you are, what you need, what you find in your marriage or do not find in it anymore, why you have a hard time letting the marriage go. I once read that the end of a marriage is not just the end of a marriage, it is the end of a civilization. You have spend more or less half of your life with your wife. Even if she is no longer the person you need next to you in this moment, divorcing means putting an end to something that has given you an identity for so long. I think individual counseling might help you untangle all that.
giotto Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 RobertLS, have you ever considered doing individual counseling? I think that might help you more. Might help you decide who you are, what you need, what you find in your marriage or do not find in it anymore, why you have a hard time letting the marriage go. I once read that the end of a marriage is not just the end of a marriage, it is the end of a civilization. You have spend more or less half of your life with your wife. Even if she is no longer the person you need next to you in this moment, divorcing means putting an end to something that has given you an identity for so long. I think individual counseling might help you untangle all that. very good advice... surely better than my "get a bloody divorce"...
confusedinkansas Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 You really do seem to be struggling here on what exactly to do. If you, in the depths of your heart can't see yourself with your wife even 5 years from now, you may very well have your answer - You just aren't ready to accept it. Perhaps it's time to.
Author RobertLS Posted September 30, 2009 Author Posted September 30, 2009 I have to say - I'm really not clear about who wants what here... you say a few times that you want out, and your wife won't consider divorce - but apparently she got the lawyers involved, and you were hoping for reconciliation...?? When I moved out, I didn't know what I wanted, except that I needed some space. She got a lawyer, but later said she didn't really want to get one, just that friends convinced her she needed to. When she got one, that pushed me from not knowing what I wanted to feeling that divorce was where we were headed. After a couple months of that, she said she wanted to go back to counseling, and we're still doing that. You are misquoting this entirely - this article is advice directed at single people, saying don't get married in the first place if there is no love... He very much says in this article that he directs his efforts in MC at regaining the love, so it clearly is possible to do (in answer to your original question). I realize he's directing his answer towards single people and that his efforts in MC focus on bringing people back in love with each other. But his statement that marriage doesn't make sense for people not in love applies to married people as well. If a couple works on their marriage and can't bring the love back, marriage doesn't make sense, ... at least to me it doesn't. What does love look like to you...? What did it look like between the two of you, when your relationship was at its best...? What would your relationship look like now, if you were in love again...? A very good question, one that I've asked myself since starting this thread. If I'm not in love with my wife, and I'm questioning whether I ever was in love with her, maybe I don't know what it means to be in love? I don't know, but your questions are exactly the kind of thing I'm asking myself. Yeah - hindsight is a wonderful thing, and all that... You say you've been together 20 years or so... There's a reasonably high chance that your mum (who no doubt loves you) wants what she thinks is best for you - and so she's doing what most people do, and reflecting back what you are saying you want, and providing you with the justifications to do that with less guilt... It's sweet of her, and I'm sure she genuinely means it, but it's not necessarily an accurate memory, from that long ago... I can understand you saying that, but my mom actually cares very much for both of us. She's not partial to wanting the best for me; my wife has been part of the family for so long that my mom wants the best for both of us. What kind of MC have you had - and which books..? Have you done things like the 'love languages' (seems to have a pretty high success rate in bringing back the loving feeling), and "I love you but i'm not in love with you"...? What was the outcome...? What KIND of MC? What kinds are there? We've tried 4 different counselors, and I don't know how to describe what kind they are. Books: Five Love Languages, His Needs Her Needs, Lonely Husbands Lonely Wives, Love & Respect, Love Busters, 20 Surprisingly Simple Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage. The outcome was that we understood what the authors were trying to say, and the books enabled us to better communicate ourselves to each other, but nothing has helped to rekindle love. I agree that you don't want to be changing your mind every 2 minutes, but waiting till you "fall" back in love is not necessarily realistic... "Falling" sounds unconscious - it cannot be unconscious at this point of the relationship... I guess it depends how important the phrase is - is this just about being "in love" again, or is the "falling" significant...? The "falling" is not significant. If I'm going to be married, I need to love my wife. If I don't love her, then I can't stay married. Others may be able to stay married to someone they don't love, but in order for me to be true to myself, I can't. The issue for me is how long do I wait to see if the love can be restored? My gut tells me not much longer. Thank you for your post. It is very helpful to think about the things you brought up.
Author RobertLS Posted September 30, 2009 Author Posted September 30, 2009 RobertLS, have you ever considered doing individual counseling? I think that might help you more. Might help you decide who you are, what you need, what you find in your marriage or do not find in it anymore, why you have a hard time letting the marriage go. I once read that the end of a marriage is not just the end of a marriage, it is the end of a civilization. You have spend more or less half of your life with your wife. Even if she is no longer the person you need next to you in this moment, divorcing means putting an end to something that has given you an identity for so long. I think individual counseling might help you untangle all that. You probably missed somewhere earlier where I mentioned my IC. I've been seeing one off and on for the past year, and bi-weekly for the past 2 months. You're right though, it does help a lot to sort things out. Thanks.
Author RobertLS Posted September 30, 2009 Author Posted September 30, 2009 You really do seem to be struggling here on what exactly to do. If you, in the depths of your heart can't see yourself with your wife even 5 years from now, you may very well have your answer - You just aren't ready to accept it. Perhaps it's time to. What I want to do is either find a way to be in love with my wife again, or else end the marriage. That's why I asked the original question in this post, can love be regained? If not, I don't want to leave as long as my wife still thinks we can work things out. Through counseling or whatever, I want her to realize that it's in our best interests to split. But at some point, if she won't let go, I'll have to make the decision.
hopeful1980 Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 Maybe I'm a hopeless romantic, but I do think love can be regained. I don't think it's ever really lost. But I don't think of love as just a feeling. It's something you do. It's something you have to keep practicing. Anyone can love when they feel like it. But it takes a truly loving person to love when the other person doesn't derserve it.
SaltLake Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 What I want to do is either find a way to be in love with my wife again, or else end the marriage. That's why I asked the original question in this post, can love be regained? If not, I don't want to leave as long as my wife still thinks we can work things out. Through counseling or whatever, I want her to realize that it's in our best interests to split. But at some point, if she won't let go, I'll have to make the decision. Robert, I'm in a somewhat similar situation and am struggling with the decision myself. However, unlike you I think I may never have been "in love" with my life. Big difference in my opinion. BUT you did mention you're mom thought you got into it for a project. I think this is important. I just posted a question as well, I never felt the spark with my wife, I thought the spark was forever dead after a brutal breakup. I just thought that's probably just how I am now, like some sort of love amputee. but a random encounter fired up that spark, and its STRONGER than I had imagined, its just not there for my wife. I think we may be in the same mind set, if you're a decent guy then you're probably thinking you made a commitment you'll have to honor it no matter what. You don't want to hurt her. And you don't want to lose what you have now even if its only so so. I don't have advice yet, i haven't figured it out, but you might want to think about that spark and your original love or lack thereof, I think it's probably the key.
confusedinkansas Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 What I want to do is either find a way to be in love with my wife again, or else end the marriage. That's why I asked the original question in this post, can love be regained? If not, I don't want to leave as long as my wife still thinks we can work things out. Through counseling or whatever, I want her to realize that it's in our best interests to split. But at some point, if she won't let go, I'll have to make the decision. OK - Then I'm with hopeful...hopeless romantic (NOW) & I think IF love was there before - then it's not gone. It's still there - You just can't see it for all the other CRAP! It CAN be regained! Keep looking. Someone else asked on here - & I don't recall an answer from you. What exactly does love look like to you? & if you loved her before....what was it like then & why is it different now?
Kasan Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 Of course love can be regained. Anyone in a long term marriage will tell you that love in different degrees will come and go. Have I always been in love with my husband? No! Has he always been in love with me? No! Have we always been friends? Yes! And just when I think I am ready to throw in the towel on this marriage of mine, something will happen, maybe he does a thoughtful gesture, or says something that resonates with me, and I see this man through different eyes. Would I prefer to go back to the early days of my marriage when everything was shiny and new? Yeppers I would, and sometimes I miss and long for those days as does he I am sure. But I am a realist and know that what we have endured and shared I couldn't find with someone else. Luckily for me, he must feel the same way. Sooo..........there it is...........in a nutshell. You on the other hand have stated that you haven't been in love with her for the past five years. What are you waiting for? Why are you willing to let her make the decision for you?
seoa Posted September 30, 2009 Posted September 30, 2009 We've read many self-help books on marriage and divorce, and the one that seemed most accurate in defining what when wrong in our marriage was Crazy Time. In healthy marriages, there needs to be a balance of power. In not-so-healthy marriages where one spouse becomes dominant and the other passive, resentments build up in the passive spouse until a breaking point occurs. When the passive spouse finally has had enough and decides to leave, a) the dominant spouse feels betrayed because they thought everything was ok, and b) the passive spouse feels guilty about finally making a decision for themselves. My wife and I fit this to a T, with me being in the passive role, and feeling guilty. You do know that guilt is repressed anger? So, I browsed around that marriage builders website yesterday - I'm not convinced about it all - it seems to encourage passivity, which I don't think leads to healthy relationships, and is something you've already identified as the problem in yours... If you haven't read them already, I recommend "Love Must Be Tough" (James Dobson) and Boundaries (Cloud & Townsend)... And if you have, I'd be interested to know what you thought of them... But his statement that marriage doesn't make sense for people not in love applies to married people as well. If a couple works on their marriage and can't bring the love back, marriage doesn't make sense, ... at least to me it doesn't. A very good question, one that I've asked myself since starting this thread. If I'm not in love with my wife, and I'm questioning whether I ever was in love with her, maybe I don't know what it means to be in love? I don't know, but your questions are exactly the kind of thing I'm asking myself. I guess it comes down to what's important to you - the Western world focusses too much on that "in love" feeling, all about the sparkage, which even if you'd had it at the start of your relationship, wouldn't be the same this far in... If you look at arranged marriages on the other hand (which seem strange to our western eyes), they don't start with the spark, but they do often end with love... But I don't think love can exist without respect - and I don't see how respect can exist in a highly imbalanced power/passive relationship... So look to yourself, sort out your issues with passivity (co-dependency /people pleaser? http://courses.ttu.edu/jfischer/Questionnaires%20Inventories/codependency%20scale.htm ) and see what you want to do once you can work with your wife as equals... Or is this something that's already been covered by your IC/MC...??
Stroon Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 What I want to do is either find a way to be in love with my wife again, or else end the marriage. That's why I asked the original question in this post, can love be regained? If not, I don't want to leave as long as my wife still thinks we can work things out. Through counseling or whatever, I want her to realize that it's in our best interests to split. But at some point, if she won't let go, I'll have to make the decision. dont mind me putting my 5 pence inas a bit of a nooby. this sentance in bold concerns me. its quite clear from your posts that you dont believe there is any hope for your relationship, and actually what you really want is for your wife to recognise that it it over, and to stop flogging the proverbial horse as it were. the constant trying to regain lost feelings, or to kindle feelings that arent there is very, very tiring and seems (to my mind) to be draining you greatly. You know what needs to be done for your sake, yet you won't make the break as long as your wife still wants to try. but where do you draw the line? how long can this go on without major resentment on your part for all this time you are seemingly wasting? you're obviously a genuine sensitive person, who's feelings of guilt and loyalty are clouding your head and not allowing you to do a very selfish act. Leaving because you want to is a selfish act, but not a wrong one. I suppose my point is: that maybe you are letting your wife decide if you can go or not, therefore absolving yourself of responsibility. you're leaving it up to her, but she only knows things from her point of view. she cant understand how you feel completely. as she doesnt believe in divorce, are you going to condemn yourself to years more of this tiring situation? never knowing when you can be released? its not up to her, sadly, most marriages dont end mutually. someone always gets hurt. sorry to be sporadic in my comments, i'm really just thinking aloud, i hope you understand my meaning.
NowhereToHide Posted October 3, 2009 Posted October 3, 2009 You keep saying repeatedly that you are "working" on your marriage. But at the end of the day, you aren't. Working on your marriage implies an open-mindedness to many things including a future together, changing one's behavior, one's mindset, and looking at what the other person needs in addition to what you yourself needs. You have shut down. Nowhere in your post do you indicate a willingness to do anything about how you're feeling. You keep expecting it to change, but are you really trying? Don't drag your wife through this if you aren't willing to make the effort. What you're facing is a HUGE task. Get in the ring or throw in the towel. Good luck.
seoa Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 You know what needs to be done for your sake, yet you won't make the break as long as your wife still wants to try. but where do you draw the line? how long can this go on without major resentment on your part for all this time you are seemingly wasting? you're obviously a genuine sensitive person, who's feelings of guilt and loyalty are clouding your head and not allowing you to do a very selfish act. Leaving because you want to is a selfish act, but not a wrong one. I think the OP is well aware of the resentment - what is not clear is if he's blaming his wife for it all (very passive-agressive) or whether he knows that it's his co-dependency (people-pleaser) issues that are at least 50% to blame... and whether he's working on those (maybe by going to CODA - co-dependents anonymous - 12-step program like AA)... Coz otherwise he'll just repeat the co-D problems in any future relationship... Might be too late to fix this one, might not be - but they need to be fixing the right thing...
soserious1 Posted October 4, 2009 Posted October 4, 2009 I'd say that you need to move forward with a divorce. As to fiscal issues, I'd say that if one is one spouse just wants out and there's been no tradition misconduct on the part of the person they're leaving that this would simply call for you to be fair and generous in the settlement. Being fair and generous however, does not mean that you leave with nothing aside from your clothing and personal effects, you are entitled to half of everything gained during the marriage. Being generous means things like allowing her 1st pick of the furnoture, letting her decide if she wants to sell the house, split the proceeds or of she wishes to buy your half out, agreeing to leave your respective 401's alone etc.
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