so what shall we do about shallow men?

[carhill]

Now, that's deep....

 

Speechless

[Jersey Shortie]

that was designed to be specifically hyperbolic and absurd lol.

 

Umm yeah, I know it was meant to be a little showy but I think you get my point. At least I hope you do. It wasn't a hard one to understand.

 

Men can have more than one thought at once. Part of it is "yeah, she looks bad" but the other part is "what is she doing to herself to gain weight?" At least I ask myself that.

 

I never said they couldn't but their desire to have a non-fat partner isn't because of her health. It's because of how she looks because that is what men are very concerned about. They aren't thinking "I don't want her to die of a heartache" they are thinking" I don't ant to sleep with someone fat". I mean seriously, lets not pretend men care about the fat issue because they are being so aultristic.

 

 

I think it's harder for women to lose weight. It's not any harder for them stay thin (given similar caloric intake and exercise levels)

 

If it's harder for women to lose weight then yes, it is harder for them to stay thin too. Really, it should be fat men that should feel bad because it's easier for men to burn calories with their muscle mass.

 

And I am not saying that means a woman should add on 200 pounds. However, you men seem to have these standards in place that women shouldn't have an ounce of fat on her because you saw it in a photoshop Playmate magazine and that just isn't realistic.

 

I will say it again for the guys here: Women are naturally more fatty then you.

 

 

I'm talking about this just to talk about it. I wanted to tell people that there is more complexity to this issue than meets the eye.

 

Why you feel the need to clarify this or use it as a response to whaty ou qouted me saying before doesn't make sense. My own point is that you want to make this big case for why men don't like a partner gaining weight and my point is that alot of the feelings and fears of both men and women are born out of the same desire for the same things. But instead of trying to see the woman's side of it, you rather ignore it. That's your business. But don't expect women to care what you think if you can't give the same back.

 

 

The vast majority of divorces in North America are initiated by women.

 

Care to re-state?

 

Thaddeus...that's all that means. Is the alot of women start the divorce. Period. I dislike when people try to use this as an example as if it proves anything. It doesn't mean that men are so happy with their partners and loving them while their mean wives are divorcing them. Most men don't start the divorce process because of the financial reasons.

[SoulSearch_CO]

Interesting articles, although the AARP study only reflects divorce in the 40s, 50s, and 60s, and the second doesn't cite the source for the stat that wome are initiators of 60-70% of divorces.

It's a study called "These Boots Are Made for Walking:" Why Wives File for Divorce by Margaret F. Brinig and Douglas W. Allen. I have the Word file of the study, but am not able to attach files in this forum. You'll just have to google around for it. But here's the paragraph and footnotes for you:

Throughout most of American history, wives rather than husbands have filed for divorce. The proportion of wife-filed cases has ranged from around 60% for most of the nineteenth century[1] and, immediately after the introduction of no-fault divorce[2], to more than 70% in some states.[3]

-------------------------------------------------

[1] Richard Chused, Private Acts in Public Places: A Social History of Divorce in the Formative Era of American Family Law (U Pennsylvania Press, 1994); Lawrence Friedman & Robert Percival, Who sues for Divorce? 5 J. Legal Stud. 61 (1976).

 

[2] B.G. Gunter & Doyle Johnson, Divorce Filing as Role Behavior: Effect of No-Fault Law on Divorce Filing Patterns, 40 J. Marr & Fam. 571 (1978).

 

[3] Gunter & Johnson, supra note 3, at 572 & Table 1 (Georgia, with 73% for 1962-63); Friedman & Percival, supra note 2 at 71, 75, 81 (76.9 per cent for Pacific states, 1931 and more than 78 percent for California, 1966-69, 80.7% for Polk County, Iowa, 1969).

Hope that helps.

 

Whoops...wanted to add this little tidbit:

This study report is based on an analysis of 46,000 divorce certificates from Connecticut, Virginia, Oregon and Montana.

[SoulSearch_CO]

Thaddeus...that's all that means. Is the alot of women start the divorce. Period. I dislike when people try to use this as an example as if it proves anything. It doesn't mean that men are so happy with their partners and loving them while their mean wives are divorcing them. Most men don't start the divorce process because of the financial reasons.

Jersey, He stated the stat about women filing for divorce more often because of Stace's comment:

most women will suffer through once married, while men will divorce their wives and try to date a much younger bimbo.

That's in direct contrast to reality. He didn't bring up the stat to prove any kind of point about marriage.

[Jersey Shortie]

I guess I read into it because it often gets used as an arguement from alot of guys around here.

 

No need to roll your eyes at me. You could have explained without the sarcasm.

[Jaytb]

I never said they couldn't but their desire to have a non-fat partner isn't because of her health. It's because of how she looks because that is what men are very concerned about. They aren't thinking "I don't want her to die of a heartache" they are thinking" I don't ant to sleep with someone fat". I mean seriously, lets not pretend men care about the fat issue because they are being so aultristic.

 

for godsakes, yes looks are a part of it, but only one part of it. There are other issues. I am not denying the looks component. What I'm saying is that there are other issues at hand with the weight issue.

 

If it's harder for women to lose weight then yes, it is harder for them to stay thin too. Really, it should be fat men that should feel bad because it's easier for men to burn calories with their muscle mass.

um what? It's harder to lose weight for women, yes. But if their weight is say 130 lbs, and they eat as much as they need and get consistent exercise, then they will stay thin. Exceptions can be made, I certainly make exceptions for health reasons (pregnancy and what have you)

 

And I am not saying that means a woman should add on 200 pounds. However, you men seem to have these standards in place that women shouldn't have an ounce of fat on her because you saw it in a photoshop Playmate magazine and that just isn't realistic.

why do you constantly bring this up? any halfway intelligent person should know a Photoshop when they see one. I guess some guys do have out of touch standards, but it's not the majority and it's certainly not any decent guy.

But instead of trying to see the woman's side of it, you rather ignore it. That's your business. But don't expect women to care what you think if you can't give the same back.

alright now i'm just plain offended. Where the f*** did you get this? I ignore the women's side of it? didn't I friggin say I won't mind some weight gain, and I make exceptions for health reasons? And I said I don't understand depression too well, so I make an exception for that. Tell me, how am I not seeing the woman's side of it?

[SoulSearch_CO]

I guess I read into it because it often gets used as an arguement from alot of guys around here.

 

No need to roll your eyes at me. You could have explained without the sarcasm.

I won't BS you, Jersey - I get a tad frustrated with you when I feel like you're looking for some reason that a man on here is trying to attack women, when it's just not always the case. Not everything with a penis is a woman-hater. So I will say - excuse my sarcasm. In the absence of a better way to express myself sometimes, I go there. I apologize.

[stace79]

for godsakes, yes looks are a part of it, but only one part of it. There are other issues. I am not denying the looks component. What I'm saying is that there are other issues at hand with the weight issue.

 

um what? It's harder to lose weight for women, yes. But if their weight is say 130 lbs, and they eat as much as they need and get consistent exercise, then they will stay thin. Exceptions can be made, I certainly make exceptions for health reasons (pregnancy and what have you)

 

I disagree. If a woman was doing something else unhealthy, like eating McDonald's all the time, but she was blessed with such a metabolism that she didn't gain much weight, you and most men wouldn't give a crap.

 

why do you constantly bring this up? any halfway intelligent person should know a Photoshop when they see one. I guess some guys do have out of touch standards, but it's not the majority and it's certainly not any decent guy.

 

Actually, this is not true. Did you know that every single magazine photo is airbrushed? And I mean every single one. Most people don't know that, and they don't know to what extent it's done. They airbrush out skin blemishes and such, yes, but they also add shadows and contour to women's cleavage to make their boobs look bigger and perkier; they airbrush out any little fatty spots, for example at the crease where your arm meets your body even. I would bet you're wrong and that most men (and women) don't understand the extent to which models are made to look perfect with technology.

[Sam Spade]

1. Because for men, I'd bet 9/10 times they don't give a crap about why a woman might have put on 10 pounds. They just care that all of a sudden you have a little pooch in your belly or a bit of a muffin top in your jeans. So it isn't that you are concerned about a woman's overall health; you just want someone who looks good in a bikini/miniskirt/tube top.

 

2. Men will frequently list weight gain as the only reason they suddenly have a problem with their relationship. So it's like, what, your girlfriend's personality or devotion or intelligence or nothing else are valuable enough to stick with her? That makes me conclude that you could insert any personality into a skinny girl's body, and most men would be happy. They don't care about the type of person you are; they just want someone who fits society's definition of thin and beautiful to parade around on their arm.

 

I frequently find that it's not even that the man notices the weight gain or dislikes it -- it's usually he's afraid of what his friends will say if his gf gets a little more poochy. Total shallow and superficial.

 

 

 

 

1. Generally yes - we don't care. Not because we're callous, but because it's a strawman argument and the oldest excuse in the book --> if you read the thoughts here you'd imagine that every person that gets fat does to because of some unimaginable personal emotional or health tragedy . Please :rolleyes:. This is as lame an excuse as there can be. Even in cases of depression, whatever happened to personal responsibility??? The single most common reason why people become depressed is because they've let their lives become an effin mess and they don't like the consequences. So depression is no medical excuse either. Whatever "treatments" you resort to, depression does not go away until a person takes responsibility of their life. (And yes, i can say that after suffering a depression so severe it led to suicide plans.)

So, the single most common reason why people get fat is that they eat more because they burn and for whatever reason are comfortable enough with that to let it slide.

 

2. There are plenty of other reasons why guys stick with girls, as evidenced by the OP. That said, major weight gain that remains unadressed over the long term will inevitably affect the dynamics of the relationship (and not in a good way ).

[stace79]

1. Generally yes - we don't care. Not because we're callous, but because it's a strawman argument and the oldest excuse in the book --> if you read the thoughts here you'd imagine that every person that gets fat does to because of some unimaginable personal emotional or health tragedy . Please :rolleyes:. This is as lame an excuse as there can be. Even in cases of depression, whatever happened to personal responsibility??? The single most common reason why people become depressed is because they've let their lives become an effin mess and they don't like the consequences. So depression is no medical excuse either. Whatever "treatments" you resort to, depression does not go away until a person takes responsibility of their life. (And yes, i can say that after suffering a depression so severe it led to suicide plans.)

So, the single most common reason why people get fat is that they eat more because they burn and for whatever reason are comfortable enough with that to let it slide.

 

2. There are plenty of other reasons why guys stick with girls, as evidenced by the OP. That said, major weight gain that remains unadressed over the long term will inevitably affect the dynamics of the relationship (and not in a good way ).

 

You can't address everyone else's depression based on your own personal experience. Depression is different for everyone. I have known people to suffer from depression who, from outward appearances, looked like they had the world by the short hairs if you know what I mean. Beautiful people with rich parents, wonderful friends, no money worries, great jobs -- everything most people dream of having.

 

It is unfair to assume that everyone who is depressed (clinically of course) is that way because of their own doing. I would bet you are not a psychologist or psychiatrist, so your assessment means pretty much nothing. True clinical depression is a chemical change in one's brain -- not just feeling down and refusing to do anything about it. Most people want help so desperately but nothing seems to work.

 

Anyway, again, it's not that men are not entitled to be shallow -- go right ahead. Just call it like it is -- don't pretend you are looking out for somebody's health. You're not. You just don't want to touch a fat girl in bad or be made fun of by your also shallow friends.

[Jersey Shortie]

I won't BS you, Jersey - I get a tad frustrated with you when I feel like you're looking for some reason that a man on here is trying to attack women, when it's just not always the case. Not everything with a penis is a woman-hater. So I will say - excuse my sarcasm. In the absence of a better way to express myself sometimes, I go there. I apologize.

 

It's fine, I understand, you don't have to offer me any apologizes for what you think and feel about things.

[stace79]

I find it's only dog ugly men and women that moan about shallowness. At the tend of the day, if a man can get a hot woman, 9x out of 10 he'll go for a hot woman, the same goes for women. We are attracted to what we are attracted too.

 

Fat women are unhealthy and I won't date one, because they are fat, if Liberals cannot stomach this then that is their problem and they can put thier money where their mouth is and date the fat woman in place of me.

 

There, everyone is happy.

 

If you'll notice, I don't care if a man is shallow. Just be honest about what you are -- a shallow ass. Then I can quickly move on to someone with a little more character who isn't only mesmerized by the Megan Foxes of the world.

[Jersey Shortie]

Actually, this is not true. Did you know that every single magazine photo is airbrushed? And I mean every single one. Most people don't know that, and they don't know to what extent it's done. They airbrush out skin blemishes and such, yes, but they also add shadows and contour to women's cleavage to make their boobs look bigger and perkier; they airbrush out any little fatty spots, for example at the crease where your arm meets your body even. I would bet you're wrong and that most men (and women) don't understand the extent to which models are made to look perfect with technology.

 

Yeah, I agree. I remember a test done to ask men how much make-up they liked on a woman. Well the same women put on three different levels of make-up, a little make up, a medium normal amount and then alot. Before they showed the men this woman, they asked the men how much make-up they liked a woman to wear, most said they like only a little or none at all. Then when they brought in the model and asked them to choose which way she looked most pretty, many choose the medium to moderate amount. Does that mean men are bad? No, but men don't have a realistic concept of female beauty rituals because they don't practice them themselves. So what is "a little make up" to men is really a medium to moderate amount that they like.

 

I have also herad stories of young guys who grew up on internet porn being surprised on their first sexual encounter about women having hair and real breasts.

 

I also agree that a man wouldn't care if a woman ate mcdonalds alot as long as she was thin.

[Sam Spade]

You can't address everyone else's depression based on your own personal experience. Depression is different for everyone. I have known people to suffer from depression who, from outward appearances, looked like they had the world by the short hairs if you know what I mean. Beautiful people with rich parents, wonderful friends, no money worries, great jobs -- everything most people dream of having.

 

It is unfair to assume that everyone who is depressed (clinically of course) is that way because of their own doing. I would bet you are not a psychologist or psychiatrist, so your assessment means pretty much nothing. True clinical depression is a chemical change in one's brain -- not just feeling down and refusing to do anything about it. Most people want help so desperately but nothing seems to work.

 

Anyway, again, it's not that men are not entitled to be shallow -- go right ahead. Just call it like it is -- don't pretend you are looking out for somebody's health. You're not. You just don't want to touch a fat girl in bad or be made fun of by your also shallow friends.

 

 

Of course I'm not a psychologist, but nevertheless did a lot of research on depression (for obvious reasons). Depression often has a biological/chemical component, but this is never the singular cause. Moreover, people still debate if the chemical imbalances aren't caused by ...the fact of being depressed (rather than be the cause of depression). Thus the depression medicine is almost never a 'cure', but rather a just crutch to stabilize the person's moods so they can hopefully pull themselves more easily out of it.

 

I'm not responsible for other people's health. They are responsible for their own health, which also includes responsibility to others - one of the reasons for being healthy is to not to impose burden on others - if you're not healthy someone will have to take care of you, right? It is quite selfish to not to take obvious measure to stave off health problems to the extent possible. I certainly wouldn't want to be a burden on others, hence I take care of myself, and it is also important that I'm attractive to my partner, so I stay fit. Obesity is also offensive, and I don't mean just aesthetically - have you tried sitting next to a fat person on the airplane? I'm increasingly open to the idea of fat taxes and rigorous regulations of the food industry.

[stace79]

Of course I'm not a psychologist, but nevertheless did a lot of research on depression (for obvious reasons). Depression often has a biological/chemical component, but this is never the singular cause. Moreover, people still debate if the chemical imbalances aren't caused by ...the fact of being depressed (rather than be the cause of depression). Thus the depression medicine is almost never a 'cure', but rather a just crutch to stabilize the person's moods so they can hopefully pull themselves more easily out of it.

 

I'm not responsible for other people's health. They are responsible for their own health, which also includes responsibility to others - one of the reasons for being healthy is to not to impose burden on others - if you're not healthy someone will have to take care of you, right? It is quite selfish to not to take obvious measure to stave off health problems to the extent possible. I certainly wouldn't want to be a burden on others, hence I take care of myself, and it is also important that I'm attractive to my partner, so I stay fit. Obesity is also offensive, and I don't mean just aesthetically - have you tried sitting next to a fat person on the airplane? I'm increasingly open to the idea of fat taxes and rigorous regulations of the food industry.

 

I'm with you on obesity -- there's a far cry from being an "average woman" at size 10/12 and being obese at size 20 or more. It's the guys who flip out if their gf is not a size 2/4/6 that irk me.

[Sam Spade]

I'm with you on obesity -- there's a far cry from being an "average woman" at size 10/12 and being obese at size 20 or more. It's the guys who flip out if their gf is not a size 2/4/6 that irk me.

 

sure, i never said I have problem with the typical average girl. In fact, my own beautiful gf has a cute tummy and some junk in the trunk , and some soft padding all over and i'm super happy with her. Sure, she could lose some weight and be a total fox, whatever, but I don't and wouldn't care if she ever does, as long as there aren't some dramatic changes for the worse. As long as we're not attempting to sell "fat" as "average", there's nothing to argue about...

[Jaytb]

I disagree. If a woman was doing something else unhealthy, like eating McDonald's all the time, but she was blessed with such a metabolism that she didn't gain much weight, you and most men wouldn't give a crap.

 

Continue telling me what I will do. Your argument is doing really well with all these presumptions. Heck, you must be Jesus Christ, you can see into my mind and know everything that I will do.

 

In your example, eating McD's all time would be a problem for me. I don't like that stuff and I don't want someone who does. Thin or thick. And please stop telling me what I will do or not do. You are not me and you don't know me. And I don't think I've ever resorted to telling you what you would or would not do.

 

 

Actually, this is not true. Did you know that every single magazine photo is airbrushed? And I mean every single one.

 

A lot of them are, but you have no way of knowing all are. Not to mention you're not even limiting your statement. So all pictures in Time and Newsweek are airbrushed? and how about every picture in Life in 1910?

 

I would bet you're wrong and that most men (and women) don't understand the extent to which models are made to look perfect with technology.

 

I have no idea. And I don't care. It's not my problem if someone can't differentiate reality from fantasy. Any halfway intelligent person who knows anything about computers should already know about Photoshop and airbrushing. Sorry if you can't find any intelligent people who understand Photoshop

[Jaytb]

I find it's only dog ugly men and women that moan about shallowness. At the tend of the day, if a man can get a hot woman, 9x out of 10 he'll go for a hot woman, the same goes for women. We are attracted to what we are attracted too.

 

Fat women are unhealthy and I won't date one, because they are fat, if Liberals cannot stomach this then that is their problem and they can put thier money where their mouth is and date the fat woman in place of me.

 

There, everyone is happy.

 

What the f*** does this have to do with liberals?

[clv0116]

Actually, this is not true. .... They airbrush out skin blemishes and such, yes, but they also add shadows and contour to women's cleavage to make their boobs look bigger and perkier; they airbrush out any little fatty spots, for example at the crease where your arm meets your body even. I would bet you're wrong and that most men (and women) don't understand the extent to which models are made to look perfect with technology.

 

I've seen and in a few cases touched women I'd consider flawless, so unless there is some really cool technology I'm unaware of that can do that for real life I'm pretty sure your scenario only applies to some guys.

 

Probably the same 17 year old virgins who don't understand how vile fake boobs feel?

[clv0116]

I'm with you on obesity -- there's a far cry from being an "average woman" at size 10/12 and being obese at size 20 or more. It's the guys who flip out if their gf is not a size 2/4/6 that irk me.

 

American size 12 is obese for most women. Average is obese in America.

[stace79]

American size 12 is obese for most women. Average is obese in America.

 

Yeah if you're like 5 feet tall. But the average woman is not 5' tall.

[clv0116]

Yeah if you're like 5 feet tall. But the average woman is not 5' tall.

 

The average American woman is a little under 5' 4, and a 'modern' size 12 should be about 160 pounds or more depending on how much vanity is in the sizing. Unless we're talking a very atypical powerlifter build here, 160 pounds at 5' 4 is something I feel very comfortable calling obese. Maybe not morbidly so, but obese.

 

For atypically tall people of course this wouldn't apply. On the other hand I like small women, so a size 12 at 5' 1 would be pretty sick.

[stillafool]

I disagree. If a woman was doing something else unhealthy, like eating McDonald's all the time, but she was blessed with such a metabolism that she didn't gain much weight, you and most men wouldn't give a crap.

 

 

 

Actually, this is not true. Did you know that every single magazine photo is airbrushed? And I mean every single one. Most people don't know that, and they don't know to what extent it's done. They airbrush out skin blemishes and such, yes, but they also add shadows and contour to women's cleavage to make their boobs look bigger and perkier; they airbrush out any little fatty spots, for example at the crease where your arm meets your body even. I would bet you're wrong and that most men (and women) don't understand the extent to which models are made to look perfect with technology.

 

 

Yes they do airbrush models. But, some girls, including models are just naturally gorgeous. My cousin is so pretty she doesn't even look real. No flaws anywhere and this is first thing in the morning. (She's sickening)! We always kid her "don't stand next to me".

[Sam Spade]

The average American woman is a little under 5' 4, and a 'modern' size 12 should be about 160 pounds or more depending on how much vanity is in the sizing. Unless we're talking a very atypical powerlifter build here, 160 pounds at 5' 4 is something I feel very comfortable calling obese. Maybe not morbidly so, but obese.

 

For atypically tall people of course this wouldn't apply. On the other hand I like small women, so a size 12 at 5' 1 would be pretty sick.

 

 

+1000000

Not to mention that I don't think a woman ever, of any height should weight 160 pounds unless pregnant or above 6 feet tall, i guess. I am a 5'8" tall guy, generally athletic, definitely not 'skinny'/scrawny, got some meat on me bones and I weight less than that - 155 pounds (and we all know that muscle weights more than fat).So even a woman as tall as me that weights just the same like me will probably be already quite chunky

My girlfriend is 5'2" and weights ~120 pounds. She has a very tiny frame, so even at this weight she can qualify as 'curvy" and I love it - see description above :love: (though certainly not overweight). She could probably put on 10 more pounds without really crossing at the overweight category, but at that point i'd probably start to feel somewhat uneasy about if this is going to stop there or keep going. . In any case, adjusting for height, being with a woman hevier than me would feel very weird and uncomfortable.

[Jaytb]

The average American woman is a little under 5' 4, and a 'modern' size 12 should be about 160 pounds or more depending on how much vanity is in the sizing. Unless we're talking a very atypical powerlifter build here, 160 pounds at 5' 4 is something I feel very comfortable calling obese. Maybe not morbidly so, but obese.

 

For atypically tall people of course this wouldn't apply. On the other hand I like small women, so a size 12 at 5' 1 would be pretty sick.

 

that's a BMI of 27.5. It's not obese but it is overweight. I guess it's a decent weight, only average in America. Not huge, but not thin either.